mid range misfire and popping from the right bank

[deez]

I recently bought a 98 tourer and love it! It has 27K on it, bone stock with the following eceptions, a 6 deg trigger wheel was added to it,  and dragon pack exhaust. everything else is factory stock (including the air injection system) When I got the bike it would pop constantly from the right bank, (left was smooth) especially when engine braking.  I synced the carbs last night (grossly out of sync!) and found when I was done that cylinders # 3 and #6 were not firing at idle. I pulled the pilot jet needles and blew out the passages with compressed air, pulled the plugs and cleaned them , verified they were getting spark, still not better. I suspected clogged jets due to the year and low milage so today I gave it a hot dose of Berryman's B-12 and took a nice long slow drive (approy 50 miles) keeping it under 2K (hard to do let me tell you!) then completed it with a return on the highway at over the "posted" speed. now I have a very smooth top end, idle has improved but still not 100% and still occational poping at idle (engine braking there is a vast difference!) The big issue now is a part throttle mis (again the right bank) between 2k and 2900. If I crack open the throttle it runs like a banshee , but if I hold it in 3rd gear and lightly open the throttle (45mph ish) I can hear the exhaust pop and feel the cylinders cutting in and out. transistion over 3K and all is well, again under engine braking and you get the same results in reverse. again I suspect a midrang jet issue. Before I bite the bullet and yank the carbs this winter , any thought on other probable causes?
could the extra advance of the trigger wheel be causing the misfire in midrange? I'll probably continue the fuel treatment for a while longed (some of the gunk can be pretty tenacious) but I also don't want to cause additional problems'

thanks

deez in Missouri

[Black Dog]

Deez,

You didn't mention if the bike was de-smogged or not...  If not, much of what you say can/could be traced to a vacuum leak.  11, going on 12 years old, regardless of miles, could mean cracked or leaking vacuum lines.  A desmog would fix any possible leaks, and help you narrow down the issues.  If it has been desmogged, I'd check the caps on the intake tubes...  I've desmogged, and had an issue like you talk about, and came to find out I blew off one of the vacuum caps off of the intake runner.  All it takes is one small leak to make the beast stumble.  One other place to look for a possible leak, would be where the intake runners meet the block, and where the rubber boots hold them to the carbs.  For where they meet the block, new 'O' rings could be needed.  For where the rubber boots mate the carbs and runners, tighten the clamps with a phillips screw driver.

Good luck!

Black Dog

[Thunderbolt]

Some have remembered to tighten the lower clamp on the rubber intake tube, but forget to check the screws on the clamp on the top end of the tube.  Tighten both ends til snug.  Check all the hoses and caps on the sync ports for cracks.
I would also continue with the fuel system cleaners.

[deez]

I've worked for almost 30 years now as an auto tech , so I'm familiar with most systems, but I am a bit puzzled as to the air injection system removal. since it is a passive system, and is putting air directly into the exhaust system to help clean the emissions, if the system is not leaking (vac hoses , gaskets ect) why do so many people pull them off? not a judgement on my part, just curious as to the reason. Is there a flaw in the system that would cause a drivability issue (other then a vac leak)? I know excess air in the exhaust can cause backfires ( I fought that all thru the 70's and 80's  untill the auto makers pried open their wallets and finally sprung for fuel injection to better manage fuel flow) If you wanted to simply disable the system , could you not just plug the air intake tube in the air box? as well as the hoses (daisy your bullseyes arn't just for bb guns!)As a state vehicle safety inspector you would not believe the amount of trouble that would come down on my head if I got caught tampering with emission systems, that said we all live in the real world. I'll double check for vac leaks. I have a ultrasonic detector that is great at finding leaks, but the old propane bottle methods works just as well, so I'll see tomorrow and keep everyone posted.

[Black Dog]

Deez,

The primary reason for a desmogg is to prevent issues like what you are going through.  No gain in HP, just a smooth running bike.  With 6 carbs, there are lots of places the system can leak. 

In regards to 'Big Brother' finding out the you of all people, tampered with an emmissions system...  That's what garage doors are for  .  Once done, only another Valk rider might be able to notice something was different.

Black Dog

[Ricky-D]

I'd suggest gong back through the synchronization again.  At least checking it to be sure all is good.  Seems like a little off could be causing the popping. And the gasoline you are using, you might try a different brand.

***

[deez]

Ok , heres the latest, I followed the advice from everyone, desmogged, eliminated ALL vacuum leaks, resynced the carbs (twice) , since the problem was comming from the right bank (cylinders #3 and #5 not firing at idle) I pulled the intakes and dropped the bowls on 3 and 5. I removed the pilot screws (got the motion pro socket) and pulled the low speed jets. I used compressed air to blow out the passages in the body, blew out the low speed jets with solvent then air ( jets are open, you can see light shine through the orifice ) reassembled everything and set all pilot screws to 2.25 turns out from seated. I now have full range from #3, including idle but #5 is still weak. not much from idle and the midrange while definately improved still has light popping occationally and seat of the pants and exhaust note still indicate a miss in the light throttle midrange. it now only backfires on decel if I hold the throttle open just slightly, if I'm off the throttle completely there is no backfire whatsoever. also previously I pulled the valve cover and checked the valve clearence to make sure they were not too tight (all were set to specs.) no indication of exhaust leakage at the header flanges ( i used an electronic scope to detect leaks-none) SOOOO  any more thoughts before I drop the bowl on #5 and try cleaning it out again?

[Ricky-D]

Here's what you write:

"and the midrange while definately improved still has light popping occationally and seat of the pants and exhaust note still indicate a miss in the light throttle midrange. it now only backfires on decel if I hold the throttle open just slightly, if I'm off the throttle completely there is no backfire whatsoever"

This is symptomatic of synchronizing problems.  One carburetor is lagging slightly causing the backfiring.

It could be in the linkage!  I'd suggest lubricating the whole linkage system and letting it work for a while, then try synchronizing again.

I quit using ethanol enriched gasoline and the majority of the popping went away. I say popping because it was very light and I would not have considered it backfiring at all. 

I've over 100k miles and ride every day and have always fretted over the obviously carburetor problems that I experience on my Valkyrie.  I'm convinced it's a float level problem and have accepted the fact I cannot change it since the floats are non-adjustable.

I have also gutted my exhaust which I consider to be part of the non-problem and I have infused large quantities of SeaFoam and Techron over the years.

My whole outlook on the subject is there is nothing that will change on it's own with respect to carburetors and jets except for float levels so I prefer not to open the can of worms defined as pilot jet adjustment or any other misapplied tinkering, thinking I can improve on the way it is now.

I have an extra set of stock exhaust that I toy with the idea of reinstalling on the bike to see if there's an improvement in quality. Other than that, I'll continue to ride and use non-ethanol gasoline.  The bike runs great, no flat spots and it pulls strong up to the red line. I get 40 mpg around town and a little better on the highways.

***

[Farther]

I quit using ethanol enriched gasoline I'll continue to ride and use non-ethanol gasoline.

  What part of the country do you live in where you can purchase non-ethanol fuels?

[Larry]

but the old propane bottle methods works just as well, so I'll see tomorrow and keep everyone posted.

1. Just as an aside, what do you mean by the propane bottle methods?
2. Good luck with the pilots and synching. Got to do mine this winter. Starting and idling have been getting rough untill the bike is warmed up. Once warm the idle was a bit too fast.

[deez]

what is often refered to in old service manuals as the "propane enrichment system" basically you use propane from a small bottle (like for a coleman lantern) that has a control valve on it.(commonly a "benzomatic propane tourch" . you slip a piece of hose on the end ,then place the hose by the suspected leak and slowly open the control valve to allow propane to flow out the end of the hose. if you have a vacuum leak it will draw in the propane and smooth the idle out since you now are ingesting a combustible gas/air mixture. It works well enought that it use to be the accepted chrysler factory method of leak detection  for engines. (obviously this is only for intake leaks) but be very careful around electrical sparks since you could be in for a major suprise! just a few moments should be all it takes to isolate your vacuum leak.

[Larry]

Thanks! That will come in handy. 

[deez]

  I have to admit that I'm getting more then just a little frustrated. What I am experiencing now is (1) while I first believed that my problems with # 3 not firing were finally solved , sadly it is not. I have very low power production at Idle and just marginal in the midrange (below3K) and (2) # 5 is still on vacation 90% of the time. Tonight I dropped float bowls for 5 & 3, completely removed the main jets , slow speed jets , and pilot screws, I used carb cleaner and comperssed air again ( made absolutely sure the passages were open and flowing, recleaned the jets (as well as the emulsion ports ) checked the float levels, reassembled every thing then did a reset on all pilot screw (this time trying the factory setting of 1.75 turns out from seated, then  resynced the carbs (for the fifth time!) with the engine fully warn and at idle (900rpm) I can pull each spark plug wire one at a time, results: normal rpm drop from # 1-2-4-6 . very minor drop on #3, and no difference on #5 whatsoever. with my throttle lock I then set the throttle just below 3k rpm, again the same results. I have tried removing the vac plug on #5 manifold (no change, so the mixture is not excessively rich or I should have at least gotten a response, I then shot fuel into the vac port, no response. so the problem dosen't seem to be fuel related or else the cylinder should have picked up at least a little. I have a automotive spark tester (basicly a glorified spark plug with an extreme gap to cause the spark to make a big jump) both #3 and #5 would not jump the gap. I don't know how accurate the test is because I don't know the kv rating on the coils. they might be good ,they might be weak. On this type of igniton , if it funtions like d.i.s. systems in cars, the coil fires down one wire jumping the gap from the  core to the electrode at that plug, travaling through the engine and jumping the other gap from the electrode to the core , traveling up the wire and reaching its final ground back at the coil. When automotive d.i.s. coils start going bad the first sign is a misfire on one of the two matched cylinders as most of th eenergy is expended just firing the first plug. So am I wrong in thinking that I may be dealing with coil issues? and has anyone else experience coil failures? And lastly are the wires molded into the coil towers or can they be removed to change the coils?
sorry about the long post but I have hit a wall as far as ideas go. (and yes I did check compression to make sure the cylinders are not down on pressure)

[Ricky-D]

So am I wrong in thinking that I may be dealing with coil issues? and has anyone else experience coil failures? And lastly are the wires molded into the coil towers or can they be removed to change the coils?
sorry about the long post but I have hit a wall as far as ideas go. (and yes I did check compression to make sure the cylinders are not down on pressure)

I agree with you that it is probably an ignition problem. However, since the affected cylinders are #3 and #5, cylinders that are controlled by different coils I diverge from your analysis that it is the coil(s). Hard to imagine two coils problems at the same time especially since the related cylinders experience no problems.

This is my suggestion.  There are many fellows on this forum that have switched to aftermarket ICM's and maybe one of these fine fellows would lend you their stock ICM to replace the one in your bike to see if that cures the problem.

My feeling is that it is the ICM that is causing the problem you are experiencing.

***

[Madmike]

  On this type of igniton , if it funtions like d.i.s. systems in cars, the coil fires down one wire jumping the gap from the  core to the electrode at that plug, travaling through the engine and jumping the other gap from the electrode to the core , traveling up the wire and reaching its final ground back at the coil. When automotive d.i.s. coils start going bad the first sign is a misfire on one of the two matched cylinders as most of th eenergy is expended just firing the first plug. So am I wrong in thinking that I may be dealing with coil issues?

No idea about the circuit through the coils and if the current flow is as you suggested or not.  Will the plug leads switch with their running mates????? - if so and the problem is as you suggest then the miss should transfer to the running mate as everything remains the same but the flow through the circuit would be reversed.

You could also swap 1/2 coil into one of the other spots and see if the problem transfers that way.

[9Ball]

try switching one of the diaphragms from a good running carb to either of the ones acting up....an easy check to see if there's a problem with the rubber diaphragm....sounds like one of the few things you haven't checked.

[fast black]

Is the no. 5 cylinder spark plug wet?   I am sure you checked this, but if it is dry then  my guess is no gasoline to offending cylinder.
adios
fast black

[deez]

I haven't tried swapping diaphrams yet . I'm leaving town for a week but will give that a try when I get back and post the results. I have checked the plugs on 3 and 5. Not wet (but not completely dry either ) the cylinders will fire over 3K and it tend to clean them a bit. I did notice something odd today when I rode it to work, morning temp was about 45 deg. f. and untill the bike warmed up it seemed all 6 were firing, once up to operating temp, it was back to it's old miss at idle and midrange. same thing happend when I took it to lunch. (only need the choke to get it started, it's off by the time I hit the street) I just picked up a good set of coils and wires on ebay for a decent price so I will also swap out the coils and wires when I get back just to eliminate that as a possibility. I may well be and ecu issue, but we'll see later next week . Thanks for  all the input! nothing more frustrating then having your emotional buzz killed from buying a new bike only to start having issues with it

[1fastbob]

http://www.jkozloski.com/ignition_trouble_shooting.htm

Refer to the above link for info regarding the ignition system.  Each coil fires 2 cylinders at the same time.  This may explain why you can not get the spark to jump a large gap (while testing) as it is jumping the smaller gap on the opposing cylinder.  I still think you have carb problems or spark plug problems.

Hope this helps

Bob

[Madmike]

Thanks Bob, I didn't think that they were dependant on the other side for completing the circuit but wasn't certain.  I had never thought about excessive gap on one side upsetting the balance before.  The tip that he says about using an inductive pickup for seeing if a plug is firing is a good one  - I use this method on NG engines all the time and it works to help isolate a problem.

In the case here #1 &2 are both firing and 3&5 aren't.  He reports that there isn't excess fuel on the bad holes but that there is some - suggests that they are getting fuel.  Maybe try switching plugs 1 & 2 with 3 & 5 and see what happens or just regap all the plugs to verify that they are the same.

[1fastbob]

He could also have 2 bad plug wires, but the chances of that happening are way up there.

If his bike were mine I'd go get a new set of Plugs and try it again.  I have had plugs on other engines that looked new, but were

fouled.

Bob

[fstsix]

Reading your post you are now 1-75 turns out? you have modified exhaust. I had the same thing when did the glass pack install years ago, all these motors react different mine started popping instantly take the mixture screw out to 2-1/2. Sounds lean it solved the decel pop. Dont feel to pi$$ed i have 45 flat slide and the mixture screw is backwards to rich and lean adjustment from the Kihin.

[deez]

Ok... got back from vacation and rechecked the spark ( this is an old trick that I learned from an instructor for checking d.i.s. ignitions,  use a short piece of high carbon content neoprene vacuum hose, in this case about 2"  cut  6 of them, remove the plug wires from the plugs and install the hose onto the sparkplug electrode and then place the plug boot/wires onto the hose making sure that they are in good contact. start the engine (yes it will start if you use HIGH carbon content hose, not some of the cheap stuff!)  next take your standard incedesent test light (not led type) and attach the clip to a good chassis ground. you then can probe each cylinders ignition at the hose. if your coil and wire is good the spark will jump off the hose  onto the testlight tip and ultimately to ground. the cylinder will stop firing but the spark will still be arcing to the test light. a great way to do a power balance test. you just do one cylinder at a time and find the cylinder(s) with no drop in power or change in rpm) a wordy explination but I thought others would benifit from the test proceedure. Anyway my ignition was fine with good spark output. so once again I opened up #5 carb. pulled the top and checked the diaphram and needle (ok , no pin holes, tears , or kinks , needle was fine. dropped the bowl and removed the slow and main jets, pilot screw and completely cleaned out the body this time with spray carb cleaner and the tube placed into the holes for the jets. I found that one of the three transfer ports at the throttle blade were restricted ( the inner port). with a lot of work I was able to get all three ports open and flowing , I also cleared out the air bleeds. I reassembled the carb and set the pilot to 2.5 turns out. when I fired it back up I could tell it was finally firing off idle now,but idle is still weak. I will pick up NEW spark plugs tomorrow and set the gap with a gapping tool (the plier type) so that the gaps are equal on all plugs. Has anyone tried platinum tip plugs? negative or positive results? I keep chipping away at the problem and get a little better with each step so hopefully before the riding season is over I'll have it whipped!

[1fastbob]

You could also test for spark by using an inductive pick-up timing light and hooking the inductive pick-up to each plug wire.  Hook the timing light up to the motorcycle or other battery as normal. If the light flashes it's got spark.

Bob

[deez]

inductive lights work great, but what you can check is the amount of gap the spark can jump (ie voltage available) by using the method I described. a light just tells you that voltage is present, but a weak coil or bad wire can have voltage going thru it, but be low enought to not jump the plug gap under compression. thats why the gm trainer told us about the carbon hose method when they first came out with the D.I.S. systems on their Quad4 engines. But your right using an inductive light is a fast method to do a quick check for voltage in the wires.
Just a couple more hours at work then it's off to the auto parts store for new plugs. I'm going with the standard ngk's for now.

[fast black]

 a little late for reply, but i had a slight miss and installed the iridium plugs.  I  think it helped, but sometimes I wonder if it is all in my head. I don't  notice any miss anymore, but I have always been a sucker for the latest greatest spark plugs. Anyhow it sounds like you had  a combination of fixes to tackle.
adios
fast black

[deez]

  well I installed the new plugs, and you guessed it , no change. so I am going to rerun a compression test as only three things are needed to fire ... fuel , spark, and compression (all in the proper order) so I have two of the three covered, that leaves compression so that is what I will revisit in the next couple of days as my schedule allows. this is just getting real old.....

[1fastbob]

Deez

It's kinda funny but I may have the same problem as you.  I am new to the Valkyrie and was not sure how they ran a slightly cracked throttle at 2000 to 2500 rpm.  Mine kinda slobbers or even misses.  I did a big dose of Techron today per suggestion of Valkhound and rod it 75 miles.  I will ride it some more today.  I think it is some better but still has a slight miss at idle and up to 2500 rpm.  Found my troubled cylinder with an infrared heat gun.  I measured the temperature at the exhaust pipe header flange on all cylinders and it was around 250 - 260 degrees and number 6 was 200 - 210 degrees.  I have discovered I have a lazy number 6. New plugs carbs out twice for cleaning, you know the routine.  I haven't run the valves yet, but since it runs fine above 2500 rpm it has to be a carb issue and I think you will find yous has a carb issue as well.  This may require removing the carbs a 3rd time and taking them off the rack and dipping them in carb cleaner.  Keep us posted on what you find and I will do the same.

[Ricky-D]

I experience the same.

This seems to me to be a common experience among many Valkyrie riders so I kinda discount the cure of gasoline additives as being an effective solution, even though I myself occasionally use a large dose of the stuff in my bike.

Popping I attribute to three things.  I've modified my exhaust which I think contributes to the majority of the popping and I find that synchronization does a lot to correct the popping. The third I think is the ethanol in the gasoline. When I run non-ethanol gas the popping diminishes considerably.

The fluttering is a separate problem that I don't group in with the popping and I've come to the conclusion that there are a number of reasons for the annoying anomaly.

The main contender is float bowl fuel level which sadly is non-adjustable. I think it's a low fuel level in one or two carburetors that causes the fluttering at highway speeds. Another contributor is that old "whipping post" of synchronization which does help reduce the fluttering. Finally I feel there is a problem with the slide inside the carburetor. Whether it is an oscillation of the slide or the uneven vacuum pulses affecting the slide I don't know, but I certainly think it has something to do with the fluttering.

In any case, neither seems to be affecting my gas mileage or performance so I simply put up with it.

***

[1fastbob]

Mine seems to run flawlessly at over 2500 rpm.  Just puttering around town and idle is where the slightly rough running is noticable.  I have had no issues with ethanol fuel except for a slight decrease in fuel mileage on any of my vehicles. I may run one more fuel treatment this time I will use the strong stuff BG-44K ($21.00 per can) before I tear down the carbs again.  If I do tear into the carbs again I will fully disassemble and dip them in carb cleaner this time.  I will report my results.

Thanks

Bob

[BlueValk]

Here is a long shot.  Carbs 2,4 & 6 hook up directly to the choke cable.  1,3 & 5 have an extra cable and an adjustment to link both sides the same.  Since 3 & 5 are a problem, maybe your choke linkage on that side is stuck in a partial choke (enrichment) position.  It would like being cold more than warm.  And would run okay at higher RPM's where it could dilute the enrichment.  There are springs that should return the enrichers back to off.  But, it might be worth a quick check.
Good luck,
BlueValk

[1fastbob]

Good idea, but it runs better slow with the choke on.  Tells me it's not getting fuel as it should, but it's not a fuel line issue as it runs well full throttle or above 2500 rpm.  Gotta be carbs.

[deez]

  Well I brought my good compression gage home from work ( don't trust cheap junk tool!!!) and found my culpret... 60psi just will not run! ran a wet test and did not raise the pressure much, plus the oil dripped on the floor from the bottom of the head. no cool loss (odd) so it must have channeled out the gasket between coolant passages (odder still with only 27k on the engine) Other then the dealership any source for a good quality gasket ?
  ya just have to roll with the punchs, I don't think the guy I bought it from had a clue as it really runs pretty well considering.

[deez]

  well duh, the oil dripped on the floor cuz of the plug well drain hole.... ( at least it means the head or block aren't channeled out!) Got to take what good news you can out of this sort of ordeal!

[1fastbob]

Well I brought my good compression gage home from work ( don't trust cheap junk tool!!!) and found my culpret... 60psi just will not run! ran a wet test and did not raise the pressure much, plus the oil dripped on the floor from the bottom of the head. no cool loss (odd) so it must have channeled out the gasket between coolant passages (odder still with only 27k on the engine) Other then the dealership any source for a good quality gasket ?
  ya just have to roll with the punchs, I don't think the guy I bought it from had a clue as it really runs pretty well considering.

I wonder if you have a bent or burned valve.  Also the valve(s) on that cylinder could be too tight resulting in a low compression number.  Keep us posted.

[deez]

1fastbob, I had pulled the valve cover earlier and rolled the engine over till the rockers were on the bottom of the cam lobe and both intake and exhaust had freeplay ( however i did not mic them) so I THINK my valves are not too tight, but before I pull the head I will bring my borescope home from work and see if I can see any problems in the valve seat area visually  and also run the valves to specs. I hope the duffus who put in the advance wheel got the cams in sync and didn't try to crank over the engine with the right bank off a couple of teeth and smack the valves!!!! (might account why # 3 is also down slightly form the rest) Pulling the head is a last resort , but if ya got to , ya got to.

[1fastbob]

1fastbob, I had pulled the valve cover earlier and rolled the engine over till the rockers were on the bottom of the cam lobe and both intake and exhaust had freeplay ( however i did not mic them) so I THINK my valves are not too tight, but before I pull the head I will bring my borescope home from work and see if I can see any problems in the valve seat area visually  and also run the valves to specs. I hope the duffus who put in the advance wheel got the cams in sync and didn't try to crank over the engine with the right bank off a couple of teeth and smack the valves!!!! (might account why # 3 is also down slightly form the rest) Pulling the head is a last resort , but if ya got to , ya got to.

Yup, If they had free play you might be screwed.  Hope the con rod is not bent!  Yanking the head probably is no big deal, but replacing a rod won't be fun.  I'll keep happy thoughts for you!

[deez]

If the problem was on the left bank I might be a little more stressed about hydrolocking a rod since the bike leans over on that side, but anything is possible. I'll know more by this weekend I hope. I'll let everyone know after the surgery.

[deez]

  Well the verdit is in! #5 cylinder intake and exhaust valves are bent, #3 exhaust valve is bent. after looking at the overall picture I could see what happened . When the previous owner had installed the 6deg. advance wheel OR when he changed the timing belt he misaligned the right side camshaft. (My quess is that the cam sprocket has lines 180deg apart. while they are marked "UP" he may have inadvertently set them 180 off. by doing that he forced the valves againt pistons that were at, or close to, t.d.c. thus benting then as the stems are smaller then a pencil! ,  he must have turned it over by hand on the crank pully and felt resistance and stopped because # 1 is fine. If he had cranked it over with the starter all the right side would have been bent !  I'll be ordering my parts today and hopefully have it back together in the next couple of weeks. I'll post the results then!
*** and no bent rods!!!

[1fastbob]

Well the verdit is in! #5 cylinder intake and exhaust valves are bent, #3 exhaust valve is bent. after looking at the overall picture I could see what happened . When the previous owner had installed the 6deg. advance wheel OR when he changed the timing belt he misaligned the right side camshaft. (My quess is that the cam sprocket has lines 180deg apart. while they are marked "UP" he may have inadvertently set them 180 off. by doing that he forced the valves againt pistons that were at, or close to, t.d.c. thus benting then as the stems are smaller then a pencil! ,  he must have turned it over by hand on the crank pully and felt resistance and stopped because # 1 is fine. If he had cranked it over with the starter all the right side would have been bent !  I'll be ordering my parts today and hopefully have it back together in the next couple of weeks. I'll post the results then!
*** and no bent rods!!!

Hey that's great! (No bent rods I mean).  I am going to do a compression check on mine as well.  Maybe my lazy number 6 has a similar issue.  Think I'd rather pull the head than the carbs anytime.  Keep us posted on your progress.

Bob