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GreenValk
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« on: August 18, 2016, 01:39:03 PM » |
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Hello all experts,
My 97 Tourer gets a slight vibration/bounce at around 35-40 mph then settles down. Bike has 49k. It does this even coasting down hill with clutch disengaged. Feels like the front tire is out of balance. I've replaced both front and rear tires with Metz 880s. The previous set were Dunlap E3 and fairly out of round with 8k. But this didn't help. Wheel bearings have been replace in both front and rear wheels. Front forks were just serviced with new springs, oil, and seals. To me it still feels like tire out of balance but dealer says no. Tire is off the bike to be checked by manufacture.
Need your help with ideas where to look next.
Thanks, Steve
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Bighead
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2016, 02:32:48 PM » |
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Tire also could have a flat spot from sitting in one spot to long. Had this happen on a new tire once it was balanced but still hopped a bit but after a few hundred miles it smoothed out and went away.
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1997 Bumble Bee
1999 Interstate (sold)
2016 Wing
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flash2002
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2016, 03:07:23 PM » |
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That sounds almost like the problem I had. I took out 2 OZ out of each fork it made a big difference.
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Gavin_Sons
Member
Posts: 7109
VRCC# 32796
columbus indiana
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2016, 04:35:10 PM » |
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The wheel is out of balance. Need to dis mount the tire and balance the rim then install the tire and balance it as a whole. Mine does this and at next tire change this is what I'll be doing.
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GreenValk
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2016, 05:10:04 PM » |
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Rear shocks are original. They are next on the list unless I hear something different to look at.
Hoping the flat spot would even out I did take it on a 100 mile trip on a hot day. Still had the same hop at the end. 2.25 oz to "balance" and 1mm out of round.
Not being a fork expert, what does taking out 2 oz do?
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Gavin_Sons
Member
Posts: 7109
VRCC# 32796
columbus indiana
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2016, 06:20:11 PM » |
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Rear shocks are original. They are next on the list unless I hear something different to look at.
Hoping the flat spot would even out I did take it on a 100 mile trip on a hot day. Still had the same hop at the end. 2.25 oz to "balance" and 1mm out of round.
Not being a fork expert, what does taking out 2 oz do?
Softens the ride and just masks the problem |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 07:11:07 PM » |
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Rear shocks are original. They are next on the list unless I hear something different to look at.
Hoping the flat spot would even out I did take it on a 100 mile trip on a hot day. Still had the same hop at the end. 2.25 oz to "balance" and 1mm out of round.
Not being a fork expert, what does taking out 2 oz do?
No need to get new shocks. Shock bushings are probably needed though. Get the green ones for the VTX. They are better. |
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Firefighter
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 07:40:00 PM » |
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My IS used to do that at 35 mph. Replaced the Avon front tire with another Avon, balanced and used ride on formula and the bounce was still there same speed, wore that tire out and replaced it with a Metzler, this tire was out of round terrible shaking, couldn't use that tire at all and so installed another Avon and the problem was gone. Don't know why, but my current Avon is smooth, Good Luck!
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2000 Valkyrie Interstate, Black/Red
2006 Honda Sabre 1100
2013 Honda Spirit 750
2002 Honda Rebel 250
1978 Honda 750
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Bigwolf
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 11:30:01 PM » |
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My '98 standard started doing this with new tires. Put a new E3 on the front last year and then had a very slight bounce between 25 - 35. I checked for runout and found a very short low spot in center of the tread. It does not bother me enough to change out the tire. Then before Inzane 16, I installed a new car tire on the rear. it too has a short flat spot in the the tread. Probably where a ply is seamed together. Anyway, now from 25 to about 38, when the flats in both tires get in sequence with each other, there is a very noticeable, and somewhat annoying, lope in the bike. From 45 on up, the bike is smooth as silk. I am going to wear the tires out before replacing them.
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GreenValk
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2016, 03:33:43 PM » |
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Bigwolf, perfect description of the other symptom i'm having. It's not a consistent hop like I feel in the front, but I think of it as a hiccup that I can feel in the seat.
Firefighter, sounds like having a couple of "bad" tires in a row is not uncommon. According to the dealer they have never seen a bad tire.
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farmer998
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2016, 05:42:45 PM » |
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Had the same problem 00 I/S. Replaced front tire with another Avon balanced with weights, new bearings, still bad so replaced weights with beads same thing. Replaced rear tire with Taxi tire and new bearings and beads. Love tire but still hop. Rear shocks original bushings seem old so I also will be replacing them soon. Like everyone else annoying but tolerable if necessary. Good luck.
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Gavin_Sons
Member
Posts: 7109
VRCC# 32796
columbus indiana
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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2016, 06:32:13 PM » |
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Im tellin ya, balance the wheel alone first then the tire mounted on the wheel. These wheels are not balanced and require being balanced. I was dumb and removed the weight that snaps oner the center lip of the wheel and have had a bounce ever since at these same speeds.
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GreenValk
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2016, 08:28:23 PM » |
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But why would balancing the wheel without the tire make a difference? Seems to me with the tire installed one would be balancing both together and any imbalance of the wheel would be taken care of when balancing the whole. yes I took the center weight off when install a new tire and changing over to Ride-On. I wasn't happy with ride on, maybe the wheel was too far out of balance?
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Gavin_Sons
Member
Posts: 7109
VRCC# 32796
columbus indiana
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2016, 06:19:24 AM » |
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But why would balancing the wheel without the tire make a difference? Seems to me with the tire installed one would be balancing both together and any imbalance of the wheel would be taken care of when balancing the whole. yes I took the center weight off when install a new tire and changing over to Ride-On. I wasn't happy with ride on, maybe the wheel was too far out of balance?
If the heavy spot of both the tire and wheel are on the same side it will be near impossible to balance it out. There is a reason those center weights are on there |
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GreenValk
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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2016, 06:49:36 AM » |
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If it's too much weight you rotate the tire 180 on the wheel and try again. Dealer said my wheel was ~1oz out of balance but didn't suggest the wheel be balanced separate from the tire. I still contend weight is weight and don't understand why it needs to be balanced wheel first and then with tire added. I am open to learn.
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2016, 07:34:23 AM » |
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If it's too much weight you rotate the tire 180 on the wheel and try again. Dealer said my wheel was ~1oz out of balance but didn't suggest the wheel be balanced separate from the tire. I still contend weight is weight and don't understand why it needs to be balanced wheel first and then with tire added. I am open to learn.
It doesn't. It just takes more weight to get them balanced if you have the heavy side of the wheel matched up with the heavy side of the tire. If it took 1 oz. to balance you are fine.  I still think you should check your shock bushings. Almost all of them need replacing by your mileage. |
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Steelbiker65421
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2016, 08:14:41 AM » |
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I have a '97 Standard, 11k miles. I replaced the tires front and rear with Metzler 880s couple thousand miles ago. Bike bounced considerably around 40-45 mph. Scary going around a turn. Front tire turned out to be about 3/16 out of round. Replaced it with another Metzler 880 from a different production lot. Tire was 1/8 out of round. Bounce still there but reduced so it is bearable. Could it be that Valks are just overly sensitive to out-of-roundness?
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GreenValk
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2016, 08:25:41 AM » |
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Dealer said the wheel was 1+oz out of balance. Tire and wheel together were 2.25oz first time and 65g second time. Check my math for me. If the wheel is 1oz off and if the best the dealer could balance was 2.25 total. That is heavy side tire matched with light side of wheel. Then the tire would be 3.25oz out of balance?
As soon as the tire is back I plan to look into the rear shocks / bushings. I like to do one thing at a time.
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Tfrank59
Member
Posts: 1364
'98 Tourer
Western Washington
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2016, 02:27:55 PM » |
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I have a '97 Standard, 11k miles. I replaced the tires front and rear with Metzler 880s couple thousand miles ago. Bike bounced considerably around 40-45 mph. Scary going around a turn. Front tire turned out to be about 3/16 out of round. Replaced it with another Metzler 880 from a different production lot. Tire was 1/8 out of round. Bounce still there but reduced so it is bearable. Could it be that Valks are just overly sensitive to out-of-roundness?
Out of round was first thing I though of when he said the wheel was (said to be) balanced. 3/16" radial runout is a lot! Any vehicle would shake and rattle with 5mm out of round on the wheels, esp. noticeable on a smooth roadway. |
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-Tom
Keep the rubber side down. USMC '78-'84
'98 Valkyrie, ‘02 VTX 1800, '96 Royal Star, '06 Drifter, '09 Bonneville, '10 KTM 530, '04 XR 650, '76 Bultaco, '81 CR 450, '78 GS 750...
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NighthawkVTX
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2016, 04:28:25 PM » |
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The 1300VTXs where infamous for having to change out the front bearings
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If at first you don't succeed, then perhaps skydiving isn't for you
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2016, 11:43:46 AM » |
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2005 I had to try 4 different front Avons at my tire guy to find one that didn't bounce like a kangaroo.
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GreenValk
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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2016, 07:35:01 PM » |
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Britman - how did you get your dealer to install 4 tires? My dealer is insisting the bike is the problem but, with a little pressure, agreed to send the tire back to the manufacture for them to evaluate.
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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2016, 07:42:28 PM » |
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Britman - how did you get your dealer to install 4 tires? My dealer is insisting the bike is the problem but, with a little pressure, agreed to send the tire back to the manufacture for them to evaluate.
I rode each one about 400 yards and took the bike back and made them ride the bike. |
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da prez
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2016, 06:27:43 AM » |
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There is usually a dot on the tire that should line up with the valve stem. A lot of installers do not look for them and just add weights for the balance. We install a lot more tires than most other shops ( many send them to us as people buy online and dealers will not install carry ins) And have only had a few that needed balancing.
da prez
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GreenValk
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2016, 06:13:43 PM » |
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Lined up it needed 2.25oz to "balance". I figured going through the dealer they would support what they sell and give me a new one on the spot. But no. They need to send the tire back to manufacture for them to check. No difference if I had bought it online. So much for the advantage of buying local.
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GreenValk
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« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2016, 08:05:59 PM » |
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Help. Installed new Dunlop 404 on the front (Metzler still has not returned the "bad" tire) and new Progressive 412 shocks on the rear. Still bouncing. Is there anything else I need to look into? Is there a Valkyrie expert in the NoVa area willing to take it for a test ride?
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Ricky-D
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« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2016, 07:49:19 AM » |
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You can use a dial indicator and check sidewall runout and find incongruities that will cause your problem. The reason being a poorly laid up tire carcass in manufacture. A road force balancing can sometimes take care of these kind of problems but that kind of balancing is not usually available for motorcycle wheels/tires. I found this problem most manifested in my Dunlop E3 front tires.
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2000_Valkyrie_Interstate
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Cracker Jack
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2016, 08:47:48 AM » |
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You can use a dial indicator and check sidewall runout and find incongruities that will cause your problem. The reason being a poorly laid up tire carcass in manufacture. A road force balancing can sometimes take care of these kind of problems but that kind of balancing is not usually available for motorcycle wheels/tires. I found this problem most manifested in my Dunlop E3 front tires.
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Gotta watch out for them incongruities!! |
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indybobm
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2016, 01:46:55 PM » |
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The center rim weights are all that Honda used to originally balance the tire/wheel combination, not just the wheel. I hate stick on weights. I have a collection of center rim weights and take them and the wheel/tire to the guy installing the tire. He uses what is needed and gives the rest back to me.
Couple of years ago I had a 35mph hop with the new front tire. Turns out that is was over .060" out-of-round Metzler. You could see it when you rotated the front wheel. Got a warranty exchange with Bike Bandit. Out-Of-Round tires happen a lot!
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So many roads, so little time
VRCC # 5258
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GreenValk
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2016, 05:22:46 PM » |
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" Out-Of-Round tires happen a lot!" Not according to the dealer. As I recall they said they have never seen it. It's been 6 weeks now and no word from Metzler.
I just want to make sure I'm not missing something stupid. Or worse yet, something serious.
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indybobm
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« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2016, 05:27:08 AM » |
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The dealer does not want to go through the hassle of removing the tire and contacting the manufacturer for a warranty exchange.
Out-round-bike tires are not unusual. Most of the time people just live with it. There have been a lot of complaints about front tires bouncing at ~35 mph.
Happened to me, got a warranty replacement, problem solved.
For what we pay for mc tires they could at least be round.
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So many roads, so little time
VRCC # 5258
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BigM
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« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2016, 06:46:01 AM » |
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I know of several and even have myself that the Dunlops have a bounce around 40 mph then level off as speed up. Dont care much for them. As had a E-3 once on the frt. Right after put it on was hot and pea gavels had embedded deep into the soft rubber.
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davit
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« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2016, 10:46:13 AM » |
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I would add Ride-On http://www.ride-on.com/motorcycle-formula-mot.html to the tire (but don't remove the wheel weights) and add 25 percent more than their application chart calls for "severe application"; if memory serves me that is around 11 ounces (you'll need two bottles). That just might be your silver bullet. |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2016, 11:39:01 AM » |
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I would add Ride-On http://www.ride-on.com/motorcycle-formula-mot.html to the tire (but don't remove the wheel weights) and add 25 percent more than their application chart calls for "severe application"; if memory serves me that is around 11 ounces (you'll need two bottles). That just might be your silver bullet. Holy crap ! If I've got to add wheel weights and 11 oz. of Ride On, I'm thinking somethings severely wrong.  |
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davit
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« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2016, 12:03:11 PM » |
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Obviously something is. And ride on is fluid ounces.
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GreenValk
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« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2016, 01:34:11 PM » |
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I had Ride-on in the E3's. Was not 100% happy with it. Cleaned it out after 6,000 miles and had the dealer balance the tires. It was worse but I figured the ride-on had made the tires out of round, or they were not perfect from the beginning. Rode for another 3,000 miles and then switched to the Metzlers (see beginning of post for the rest of the story).
How can I determine if the bounce is coming from the front or the rear? It sure feels like the front but I have read posts that it can actually be coming from the rear tire.
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