Remove Fork Oil to Soften Ride?

[Fazer]

I've posted before about my harsh ride, felt in the front end.  Recently seen a post about removing a couple of ounces of fork oil to improve the ride.  I have Dunlop E3 fron and rear, progressive rear shocks, and as far as I know, OEM front fork springs.  I don't remember the ride being so harsh when I first bought the bike, even after changing out the tires to the E3's.  Do you all think my choice of tire would cause the harshness?  I have about 7000 on them, and they still look pretty good.  I think I am around 42F/44R with pressure.  Have tried going to 38F but didn't notice a big difference.

Appreciate any opinions.

[Ricky-D]

Go ahead, you'll do no harm removing a few ounces of oil from the shocks and they well may soften up the ride. A lighter weight oil would also soften the ride

***

[pancho]

Before doing anything Fazer, put the rear shocks on the softest setting and see what you think. It may seem counter intuitive, but it will tend to lessen hammering in the front.

[Roidfingers]

BTW, speaking of sock adjustment. My stickers have come off. which direction stiffens them. also do u have to lift bike?

[Gavin_Sons]

Won't less oil cause more stress on your springs and shorten the life considerably?

[pancho]

BTW, speaking of sock adjustment. My stickers have come off. which direction stiffens them. also do u have to lift bike?

Try them in whichever direction is easier to get the tool engaged,,, move them several places,, you'll get the feel for it and figure it out pretty fast. It's not necessary to have the bike on the lift.

[Fazer]

Pancho--thanks.  I reduced the firmness to the first ring and it seems better.  I will try this for a while.  My shocks are 13" 444, not heavy duty.  After your post the other day, I got to thinking, that I don't notice the "hammering" (which is a great description, BTW) as much when riding two up.  Now all I have to do is remember to turn the shocks back to about five rings when the spousal unit is along.  I carry a small HF strap wrench to handle the duty.  With hard bags, it's not possible to turn the shocks by hand.

Roidfingers--if you have Progressive shocks it's easy right tighty for firm ride, lefty loosey for softer ride.  If you have OEM shocks, they are only supposed to go one direction.  There are five settings.  To get to the softest, 1, you have to turn right (clockwise) and advance thru all five settings.  This is how I broke my shocks and had to buy the Progressives.  I was actually able to turn one OEM backwards from four to three which is the setting I was going for.  When I tried the other side, it would not turn.  Thinking I needed more force, I used a pipe cheater on the wrench and actually broke the shock mount off where it attaches on the bottom.  Really screwed the pooch.

If any of this is not correct, I hope other more experienced Valk owners will help out, but this was my experience.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Pancho--thanks.  I reduced the firmness to the first ring and it seems better.  I will try this for a while.  My shocks are 13" 444, not heavy duty.  After your post the other day, I got to thinking, that I don't notice the "hammering" (which is a great description, BTW) as much when riding two up.  Now all I have to do is remember to turn the shocks back to about five rings when the spousal unit is along.  I carry a small HF strap wrench to handle the duty.  With hard bags, it's not possible to turn the shocks by hand.

Roidfingers--if you have Progressive shocks it's easy right tighty for firm ride, lefty loosey for softer ride.  If you have OEM shocks, they are only supposed to go one direction.  There are five settings.  To get to the softest, 1, you have to turn right (clockwise) and advance thru all five settings.  This is how I broke my shocks and had to buy the Progressives.  I was actually able to turn one OEM backwards from four to three which is the setting I was going for.  When I tried the other side, it would not turn.  Thinking I needed more force, I used a pipe cheater on the wrench and actually broke the shock mount off where it attaches on the bottom.  Really screwed the pooch.

If any of this is not correct, I hope other more experienced Valk owners will help out, but this was my experience.

I wonder if your shock was seized up. You should be able to go up or down.

[pancho]

If you try to force it to go from one to five, I can see it happening...  got to go in the other direction.    If you go from five to one, you just get a "bang" when it goes.

[pancho]

Fazer,, took a good bit of experimenting before I landed on the rear shock settings to fix it,, fork oil height, discussed progressive springs, (luckily was convinced that was not the way to go before purchase) was looking into modifying the fork caps for air pressure or vacuum  (probably not a good idea with our fork design). Now everything is stock,,, just need to adjust the rear according to the weight.

[Willow]

BTW, speaking of sock adjustment. My stickers have come off. which direction stiffens them. also do u have to lift bike?

Try them in whichever direction is easier to get the tool engaged,,, move them several places,, you'll get the feel for it and figure it out pretty fast. It's not necessary to have the bike on the lift.

If you have OEM shocks they will only adjust one direction, clockwise to increase.  To get to the lowest setting one must adjust to the top and let it drop to the lowest (what a shock!).

[Fazer]

What Willow says is what I learned after my fiasco.

[Gryphon Rider]

BTW, speaking of sock adjustment. My stickers have come off. which direction stiffens them. also do u have to lift bike?

Try them in whichever direction is easier to get the tool engaged,,, move them several places,, you'll get the feel for it and figure it out pretty fast. It's not necessary to have the bike on the lift.

If you have OEM shocks they will only adjust one direction, clockwise to increase.  To get to the lowest setting one must adjust to the top and let it drop to the lowest (what a shock!).

I've never had a problem adjusting them down.  In fact, it's easier than adjusting up.

[Gryphon Rider]

BTW, speaking of sock adjustment. My stickers have come off. which direction stiffens them. also do u have to lift bike?

It helps to take weight off of the rear wheel.  It doesn't have to be off of the ground, but light enough that the shocks are fully extended is best.

If you PM me your name and address, I could duplicate the shock stickers and mail them to you.

[Paladin528]

Removing the oil from the fork will reduce the dampening of the spring.  this will result in cupped front tire.
If you wish to soften the ride then change the oil to a lower weight.
The oil is in the fork to dampen the rebound of the spring.  if this is compromised by removing some of the oil then prepare to lay out cash for a new front tire in fairly short order.

[Gryphon Rider]

Removing the oil from the fork will reduce the dampening of the spring.  this will result in cupped front tire.
If you wish to soften the ride then change the oil to a lower weight.
The oil is in the fork to dampen the rebound of the spring.  if this is compromised by removing some of the oil then prepare to lay out cash for a new front tire in fairly short order.

Really?  You'd have to remove a lot more than an ounce or two to compromise the damping system.  The damping mechanism is well down in the fork, in no danger of being unsubmerged.  Removing oil increases the amount of air, making it easier to compress, thus reducing the effective spring rate.

[Willow]

BTW, speaking of sock adjustment. My stickers have come off. which direction stiffens them. also do u have to lift bike?

Try them in whichever direction is easier to get the tool engaged,,, move them several places,, you'll get the feel for it and figure it out pretty fast. It's not necessary to have the bike on the lift.

If you have OEM shocks they will only adjust one direction, clockwise to increase.  To get to the lowest setting one must adjust to the top and let it drop to the lowest (what a shock!).

I've never had a problem adjusting them down.  In fact, it's easier than adjusting up.

Not meaning to be argumentative, GR, but if that is true you don't have OEM shocks.  On OEM shocks the notch that seems to slip into place is actually a spot where the guide rests against a vertical wall.  The adjustments are along an upwardly slanted path for the guide.

That would not be true for Progressive or Works shocks. Those shocks have no "notches".

[pancho]

My OE shocks adjust either way willow,, just can't go directly from 1 (softest), to 5 (Stiffest). Like GR said, it is easier to go in the "down" direction.

Unless these are not the original shocks?

[Willow]

My OE shocks adjust either way willow,, just can't go directly from 1 (softest), to 5 (Stiffest). Like GR said, it is easier to go in the "down" direction.

Unless these are not the original shocks?

Those look like OEM.  Perhaps I'm missing how you all are adjusting.  They can only be turned to lower tension if you stretch them out, obviously with the weight of the bike off them.  They were intended to be adjusted on the bike turning them to higher tension until they drop to one again.

[pancho]

I might be missing something, but I have been adjusting mine in either direction since I got the bike,, just can't make the step from one directly to five,, I am assuming that is what Fazer tried to do with the cheater bar when his was broken.  I don't lift the bike, just do it on the fly, always have, didn't know any different, and it certainly adjusts down easier than up. 

I don't see anything about in the SM, but will check the owners manual.

[pancho]

Well, here's what the owners manual says about it,,,  guess we were all wrong about adjusting from 5 to 1 and letting it slam.

[cookiedough]

On my I/S it is way too soft of a front end a lot of nose dive and I would think that is the NORM for OEM oil and OEM front springs, not being a firm ride for OEM for most of us???

I am tempted to bite the bullet on progressive springs only cost 75 bucks, but the darn stealers want between 300-400 bucks around here to do the job with seals, etc. if needed - YIKES.. 

I might just change old front tire first with new one since been on there 6 years (getting hard and cupped) and might help remedy some of it BEFORE coughing up that kind of dough.  I would think 200-300 mostly labor would be reasonable with new fork oil?

One step/thing at a time right?

My rear shocks are set at 4 which would help some of that if on 3 mid-level vs. 4     I don't see the need for level 5 riding 2-up unless do it a lot as well as 300lber and 200lber on back. 

[Fazer]

I guess the owner's manual settles that little discussion.  Still don't know why mine broke.  I was at 4 or 5 trying to go a little softer. 

Cookiedough--my progressive shocks were about $450.  Are you talking about for the front for $75?  Guess you are if you mention seals and labor.

[mark81]

Greg I wonder if your shocks had one side at 4 and the other at 1 when you started

[Fazer]

Anything is possible.  I still have 'em in the garage.  I'll check, just for shitz and giggles.

[Motodad71]

OK.....I didn't want to start a new thread, but I am having one Helluva time finding exactly "how much" fork oil I need to purchase. I see that 10 WT appears to be the magic elixir, just need to know how much to buy and how far to fill each fork.

[Bighead]

Look in the shop manual. If you don't have one there is one posted online.

[Motodad71]

I have a PDF, was just hoping for some real world experience.

[Bighead]

Well you ask exactly how much you needed and again I refer you to the shop manual. I have rebuilt my forks twice and always used the manual specs. No problems. BTW my '97 is also a bumblebee. And over 120k and never a problem so you have a long lasting bike under you

[Jess from VA]

I do not know the amounts (my manual is out in the shed).

But the forks take different amounts (slightly) on each side.

And there are apparently two ways to do the job (the manual may only cover one of them);  one uses exactly measured amounts, and the other fills to some level inside the fork.

Mine are always done by someone who knows what he is doing.

Beware, some (even using the specified 10wt), and exercising due care, have ended up with pretty brutally hard forks.  I had the same thing happen to me by a metric bike dealer (for a pile of money) (and I'm talking tooth fillings coming lose, and sore shoulders).  And interestingly, if you do some reading on the subject, you discover that all 10wt bike fork oils are not the same (or consistent).  

If you leave out about an ounce and a half on each side (of specified), the word is you'll still have a very good ride, and probably not brutally hard forks.  Or at least err on the low side of oil used.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I have a PDF, was just hoping for some real world experience.

It's a twofold answer. If you are rebuilding the forks and removing ALL the old oil it's pretty easy. There is a set amount of fluid for each fork. If you are just dumping out the old oil and replacing, it's a little more complicated. There are measurements from the tops of the legs to take.

[Gryphon Rider]

I have a PDF, was just hoping for some real world experience.

It's a twofold answer. If you are rebuilding the forks and removing ALL the old oil it's pretty easy. There is a set amount of fluid for each fork. If you are just dumping out the old oil and replacing, it's a little more complicated. There are measurements from the tops of the legs to take.

Actually, the measure-from-the-top method is when you have the springs out, which is not required to replace the seals and bushings.

Both of these methods will need some experimentation if you are not using OEM springs.  I think some have posted their recommended adjustments to oil volume when using Progressive springs.

In any case Motodad71, follow the instructions in the Honda service manual, which specifies both methods, either completely draining all the old oil, then carefully measuring the volume of the new oil before pouring it in, or removing the springs and measuring down from the top to the oil level.  I used the first method, and bought a graduated cylinder from a scientific supply store with the required precision to do it right.  The manual specifies the measurements ±2.5 cm³ (0.08 oz.), so a measuring cup for cooking certainly won't do.  Also note that the volumes are different left and right, and different between the Interstate and Standard/Tourer models.

In case you're not familiar with volume units, 1 cm³ (cc) = 1 mL, 1000 mL = 1 L, and 946.35 mL = 1 US quart.

From page 13-1 of the Valkyrie service manual:


Motodad71, to answer your original question, from the chart above, you'll need at most 1414 mL, so two 1L containers will be more than enough.

FYI, here's the first of a series of four videos for doing the forks on an 1800 VTX, which are internally constructed virtually the same as Valkyrie forks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXZPzQqfAXc

[Motodad71]

Thanks ALL for the great info....and in particular Gryphonrider!!!! 

[Itinifni]

I just completed a complete fork disassembly/rebuild on my standard's forks with seals, bushings and Progressive springs. I purchased 3, 16 oz bottles of Honda SS-8 fluid which provided enough to set the forks to the factory level (measured before installing springs) and lubricate the new parts during assembly.

Well worth the effort in my case as a previous owner had significantly over-filled the right fork.

Good luck.

[Leathel]

the difference in oil volume per side is the LH side has no full length damper rod in it, but the oil heights should end up about the same (within a few mm)

 The oil height is quite important so it is far better to put lighter oil than reduce volume, As the forks compress the air compresses above the oil and creates a cushion to stop it bottoming to hard (along with the spring on the top of the LH fork and main spring)... drop the oil level and it increases the space available so the air won't compress as much so won't slow the last bit of travel so will be a harsher bottoming of the stroke... too much oil and it will hydraulic stop before the full travel is achieved

If changing the oil and just using volume to refill make sure it drained completely

(I hope that didn't confuse things to much)

[98valk]

http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/oilheight.htm

and fork oils numbers are not labeled to a standard weight. one companies wt is not the same as another companies.

http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/lowspeed.htm

I'm presently using amsoil 5w and 10w in a mix ratio to 7w.

[da prez]

  Just my opinion (due to experience) is to do the fork oil by the measurement . It will get the oil height correct. I have done it by the book using a special (Honda approved)  measuring cup. The forks always seem to be over full.

                                              da prez