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« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2009, 06:56:26 PM » |
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Ok Jeff, we get your point - you got yours, screw everyone else. Healthcare should only be available to those who can afford it.
So, you won't be getting a swine flu vaccine developed by evil government scientists right ? And only those who can afford it should get it, right? Even though we all paid to develop it.
And that guy who coughed in your direction? Hopefully just flu and not TB...but if he can't pay for it, he shouldn't get healthcare right?
Same goes for HIV, Hepatitis, all the childhood vaccinations, and other contagious diseases - no pay then screw em right? Only those with enough money should be cared for.
And those who lose their job and insurance? If they get cancer, well tough sh*t, right?
JeffK, we live in very different worlds, and I am very, very thankful for that.
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« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 06:58:00 PM by Scanner »
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Reality - it's nice here, come visit sometime!
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RoadKill
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2009, 07:24:24 PM » |
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You tell 'em Scanner!  Damnit JeffK you should try pimpin and livin off da man ! then it is free when you get Ghonnasyphliherpilitus! Obama said the rich would pay for it so sit back and let Enron,Walmart and that rich ass Haliburton guy pay your way. They all get rich off of us poor people any how so I'll pay in 5 bucks here or 10 there so these rich guys have to pay me what I deserve ! OBAMA FOR LIFE ! he even provides the beer! |
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Jeff K
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« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2009, 07:26:55 PM » |
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Ok Jeff, we get your point -
JeffK, we live in very different worlds, and I am very, very thankful for that.
Now there is one thing we agree on. Free and equal housing? Free and equal clothing? Free and equal education? It's only fair. Free and equal transportation? Free and equal food? Free and equal utilities, cable TV, internet, phone, fuel... Scanner, where do you draw the line? Everyone should give until we all have the same amount of ... nothing. Then we can all be equally miserable. If you level the playing field... we wouldn't all be rich... we wouldn't all be middle class... we would all be poor. Perfect plan. |
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RoadKill
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« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2009, 07:34:37 PM » |
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now you are gettin it Jeff...you forgot to mention free abortions too! that is health care aint it? Either way,when we all have nothing ,the NOTHING will be FREE! ! ! I never pass up FREE! Dick Cheney or some of these rich movie stars will give it to us...they got more than they need anyhow.
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RoadKill
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« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2009, 07:44:36 PM » |
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I dont know what you are all worried about any how unless you are rich! I know I'm not....I can barely afford crack cocaine! What if some dude's dog bites me while I'm robbing his house? I shouldn't have to pay for that! I didn't hurt any one and I was gonna give some of those earnings to one of my babies mommas ! That is how we roll in America ! All you whiny Obama haters should just sit back and play the game. Socialist programs never hurt any one except those who have more than they deserve.
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« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2009, 06:45:24 AM » |
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now you are gettin it Jeff...you forgot to mention free abortions too! that is health care aint it? Either way,when we all have nothing ,the NOTHING will be FREE! ! ! I never pass up FREE! Dick Cheney or some of these rich movie stars will give it to us...they got more than they need anyhow.
It's like at a party when a group is talking and some guy walks up and says something completely off the wall. People just kind of back away slowly and re-group out of his sight.... |
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Reality - it's nice here, come visit sometime!
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G-Man
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« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2009, 07:07:03 AM » |
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If a true and accurate study was performed...............
Get all of the names, addresses, and social security numbers of all the un-insured. If they want free health care services thay should hand over this information readily. Then run credit, phone, background, cable, DMV, credit card, loan, and every other report you can think of. Then add up their cell phone, credit card, cable, car loan, and all their other non-essential to living bills and see how much health care coverage they really could afford if they didn't have to pay the other non-essential bills.
If you can't afford health care coverage, and want someone else to pay for it, for you and your family, but you're paying out all these hundreds a month cell phones, internet access, HBO, a new car loan, etc., you should be denied! Yes, I know there are truly poor and indigent, and those are the ones who need our help (and they already have it with Medicaide), but I also know that people's priorities, and the choices they make, are not always what's best. The rest of us should not have to cover these people as well.
In my opinion, and ONLY my opinion, as a parent, responsibilities should be as follows:
Shelter
Food
Clothing
Education
Healthcare
That's it! These few things are what, at the very least, I should be providing for me and my family. If I can't provide these things, then everything else must go and I need to find another job, or a second, or third job, move to a smaller house, tuna fish instead of steak, etc. in order to provide these things. I wonder how many millions would fall off the list of un-insured after that?
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fstsix
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« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2009, 07:58:53 AM » |
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just thinking as i read this comedy thread  I do a lot of work for the State RI, Section 8 housing. And a few years back i was working on one of the larger high rise projects and for days inside up and down the indoor hallways people were partying and watching Jerry Springer as i was working i thought ? who is working for who and who is really got the American system wired I finished the job thinking they are laughing at us the working class. BTW it was a hot hot day those beers they were drinking looked REAL GOOD just a thought. Also i always need a good strong back to hire there was no takers and yes i was polite and working with a smile. |
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JimL
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« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2009, 08:50:05 AM » |
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As I read this thread I keeping thinking that all of the words in this thread are wasted, because I already know that the old axiom "For those who understand, no explanation is needed; for those who don't understand, no explanation is possible" clearly applies to this debate and others like it. Of course the only true debate is "which of us doesn't get it", and unlike the world of finite mathematics there is no mathematical proof we can rely on to give us the answer.
It comes as no surprise to anyone that has frequented this board before, that I subscribe to a strict interpretation of the Constitution and VERY LIMITED GOVERNMENT. These are not ideals that I grew up with, as a matter of fact, the environment I grew up in was completely opposite...but I will spare you the boring details. Like most everything that has shaped my opinions in my life it has been a combination of education, observation and general life experiences.
There are several life experiences which form my belief that the government needs to stay out of the healthcare business (as if our governments prior track record doesn't already make this obvious). I only have time to discuss one of them......
Since I work for an international company I have the privilege of working with a very diverse group of people. On a given day I will hear French, Spanish, Chinese, Portuguese, Arabic, Urdu, Hindi, and Afrikaans within earshot of where I sit. I have taken an active interest in politics since I was a youngster and as such I always enjoy talking to these folks about their governments and in particular as of late how health care works in their country. I have had a great deal of dialogue recently with the gentlemen that sits just behind me who came from the Anhui province of China. Yes that would be the same country that we are currently borrowing money from because we are spending so much money on entitlement programs that we can't afford. I asked Yang what health care is like in China since one of the hallmarks of the Cultural Revolution was to provide healthcare to all of its citizens. Yang agrees that the policy of the state is to provide healthcare for all, however the reality of the situation is that healthcare is extremely limited to the average citizen...and practically non-existent to people in the outlying provinces where he came from. Everyone contributes to the state and the state delivers services as THEY feel are appropriate. Healthcare was practically non-existent for Yang and his family, however there is no shortage for ranking members of the Communist Party. I have no doubt that this same scenario would play out if our healthcare comes under government control. We already know that the House and Senate have declared that their healthcare will not fall under any government plan, but will remain the same as what they currently have. Once again high ranking party members would be taken care of at the expense of the masses who are FORCED to pay into the government plan. This same story holds true for others I have spoken to that come from Cuba and to a lesser extent from Canada.
This is an imperfect world we live in, regardless what form of government we have, someone will endure hardships. Of course for some folks, they would endure hardships regardless of the form of government if they can't or won't do for themselves...the only exception being the ones born into wealth in this country or the ones born into a prominent member of the Communist Party in China. Given that no form of government can guarantee prosperity for everyone, I prefer to live in a government that gives me as an individual the power to control my destiny. If I live in a society were the government has limited control over my life, I can choose to make my own choices and my prosperity is limited only by my own abilities. That the best we can possibly hope for in an otherwise imperfect world.
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RoadKill
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« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2009, 10:13:52 AM » |
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now you are gettin it Jeff...you forgot to mention free abortions too! that is health care aint it? Either way,when we all have nothing ,the NOTHING will be FREE! ! ! I never pass up FREE! Dick Cheney or some of these rich movie stars will give it to us...they got more than they need anyhow.
It's like at a party when a group is talking and some guy walks up and says something completely off the wall. People just kind of back away slowly and re-group out of his sight.... We are on the same side here Scanner! I'm with you . MORE FREE STUFF ! ! The days of Robin Hood are long gone,we are more civilized than that. We should not have to take from the rich to give to the poor...They should give it up willingly! But sometimes we will just have to take it and redistribute it to show them what they are missing. These guys dont understand that when everything is free they can stop working like slaves and just let the government print more money. We can not expect them to be as compassionate as we are either but we have to stick together and show them how much fun it can be . Global healthcare is just around the corner Dont loose hope! |
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Scanner
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« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2009, 11:02:33 AM » |
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The crowd backs away slowly....
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Reality - it's nice here, come visit sometime!
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Mikey
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« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2009, 11:10:30 AM » |
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 Scanner, I don't know whether to laugh, or to be scared of you. You seem to fight about everything and nothing. People can agree with you, and you still feel the need to disagree with them! I feel that you argue for arguments sake. Let's get back to the real purpose of this board. So, How's the Valk running? 
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Remember folks, street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70 mph
VRCC# 30782
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Scanner
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« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2009, 01:34:57 PM » |
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Mikey, I recognize sarcasm, even when done clumsily, pretty quickly. Maybe you should read posts a little more carefully before agreeing with them. And I'm not "fighting" with anybody. Just stating my views, as are others. If you don't care to read them, well, nobody is forcing you to read three pages worth to get to this point.  |
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« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 01:39:43 PM by Scanner »
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Reality - it's nice here, come visit sometime!
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RoadKill
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« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2009, 02:15:59 PM » |
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Will this global health care cover me next time I get drunk or high and steal your Valk ? Because those damn cops always tailgate me with all those distracting flashy lights and I'm afraid that could cause an accident. Any of you guys want to chip in a little extra so the county don't have to cover the whole bill...again.
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danholmes
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« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2009, 03:46:06 PM » |
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..The wife and I went to Catania (Sicily) for a wedding and she came down with Bronchitis which is chronic for her. What a mess! But they sent us off no charge albeit with a prescription that cost maybe $10-15 to fill up the street. It was hell for her with the near anarchy in the emergency area of the hospital...
Cut to 4 days later when we were in Paris for the final leg of our 2 week stay in Europe when she complained of horrific pain in her abdomen. It was late evening so I said I'd pick up antacid in the morning. Next day no improvement. I went down to the front desk and asked where I could take her. They said no problem, we'll call a doctor and they'll come here. Really? Really. Arrived within 20 minutes and after a cursory exam recommended a visit to the hospital. A 50 euro bill was charged by the mobile Dr. Ambulance arrived and took her off to a local hospital. Long story short...a private room, terrific staff despite the language barrier and an accurate prognosis of a rarely suffered disease in Europe. Diverticulitis. Severe. For some reason it only occurs in country's with highly processed foods. They kept her and got it under control after 3 weeks (that severe) and said she'd need surgery when she got home. I would go to the billing office daily to explain that I had contacted Blue Cross/Anthem and it would be paid for. No problem they said. Go be with your wife and relax. You shouldn't be worrying about the money. Never even asked about insurance upon admission obviously knowing we were not French. We got a bill 6 months later for the co-payment. I told my wife send it out NOW.
So, Italy? Scary. France? Merci beaucoup!
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stormrider
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« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2009, 10:52:49 PM » |
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Scanner, how does it fill to be backed into the corner by yourself?
Keff K, gotta agree with you. I really don't need Scanners big brother government. Gas taxes pay for the pavement here in south Alabama. What's the old Puritan work ethic? If you don't work you don't eat. There is a whole lot of folks I see around these parts that sure don't work, probably have never worked and as long as they get a free ride will never work and want even more. Why the he__ should I have to pay for them to not work. Scanner must be in a corner trying to figure out where one wall stops and the other begins. There must not be any free to the public housing projects near him.
Tell you what Scanner, because of the banking scam of creating fiat money and using fractional banking as our monetary policy, my business has suffered much as of late and I can't afford to go on a ride this weekend on my Valk. How bout chipping in. I know you don't mind since I really need to make this trip. It is totally neccessary for my mental health and possibly for my physical health.
Email me and I will give you my paypal info that way you won't have to worry about Uncle Sam getting his cut and it will go to someone in desperate need.
Storm
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Freedom will ultimately cost more than we care to pay but will be worth every drop of blood to those who follow and cherrish it.
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Scanner
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« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2009, 04:49:24 AM » |
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I'll tell you what Stormrider, Alabama is #7 in Federal welfare - they receive about $1.66 of our fed tax dollars for every one dollar collected. You get off the Fed Welfare and I'll send you a couple bucks to go for your ride? Ok? I'm tired of my tax dollars going to Alabama freeloaders |
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Reality - it's nice here, come visit sometime!
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stormrider
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« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2009, 05:47:39 AM » |
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I'm in 100% agreement with you. I don't think there should be any "freeby" Federal tax dollars for anyone........ I didn't cause the problem, just pushing for solutions, unlike many I know. www.southernnationalcongress.org |
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Freedom will ultimately cost more than we care to pay but will be worth every drop of blood to those who follow and cherrish it.
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« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2009, 05:09:00 PM » |
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BF
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« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2009, 05:56:04 PM » |
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Please watch this....... http://video.pbs.org/video/1050712790/...and then, if you are against a universal type of healthcare plan, then please comment as to why you think ours (as is), is better than theirs. |
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I can't help about the shape I'm in I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin But don't ask me what I think of you I might not give the answer that you want me to  |
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BF
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« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2009, 06:02:00 PM » |
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By the way.......this is what's REALLY wrong with our country and why we won't ever get anywhere....with anything........
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I can't help about the shape I'm in I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin But don't ask me what I think of you I might not give the answer that you want me to |
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RoadKill
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« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2009, 06:13:28 PM » |
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And this is the system and THESE are the people in it that you want in charge of squandering MORE of your money? I dont care what they say they will spend it on...They all LIE and CHEAT and STEAL ! Guess who I think are going to be the victims of this system ? Do you want to pour more of your money into this?
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BF
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« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2009, 06:30:54 PM » |
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Did you watch the PBS program "Sick Around the World"?
Please do, then comment.
But to answer your question.......No, I don't.
I want them to study and take the best parts of other systems such as in England, Canada, Japan, Taiwan, Switzerland and Germany and pour money into that.
We are not the best, just the biggest and most expensive while covering the least.
No one should have to go into bankruptcy because they get sick.
That's what I want.
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« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 06:32:29 PM by BF »
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I can't help about the shape I'm in I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin But don't ask me what I think of you I might not give the answer that you want me to |
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BF
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« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2009, 06:36:15 PM » |
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btw......These people ARE in charge of squandering our money already.
What we need is congressional reform. Something has to be done to limit, (more like get rid of) the influence that lobbyists and special interests are allowed to buy.
They buy and sell politicians like cattle at auction.
We need tax reform, and congressional reform in order to move this country foward.
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I can't help about the shape I'm in I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin But don't ask me what I think of you I might not give the answer that you want me to |
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fstsix
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« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2009, 06:39:48 PM » |
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RoadKill
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« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2009, 06:59:01 PM » |
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btw......These people ARE in charge of squandering our money already.
What we need is congressional reform. Something has to be done to limit, (more like get rid of) the influence that lobbyists and special interests are allowed to buy.
They buy and sell politicians like cattle at auction.
We need tax reform, and congressional reform in order to move this country foward.
OH! Well ...if they are already FUBAR why not put them in charge of health too ? then we can reform the corruption later..maybe tomorrow,or the next day,or when we are all peasants! |
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Puffs Daddy
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« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2009, 07:22:58 PM » |
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Ok, for all those proposing that we go with a national health care system, administered by the people in Washington, let me ask this.
How are we going to pay for all this?
If we are no longer going to ask our employers to cover part of our insurance, to protect free enterprise in America, to make our employers better able to compete in the new Global Market, if we are going to provide medical coverage for every man, woman and child in the country,,,
How are we going to pay for it all?
The same way that every other industrial nation does, with less administrative overhead and better healthcare outcomes than in the US. |
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RoadKill
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« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2009, 10:28:40 PM » |
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The same way that every other industrial nation does, with less administrative overhead and better healthcare outcomes than in the US. Because Obama will administrate it for us free of charge and insist that the old administration (who are not getting paid now) gives us better health care and better technology than any other country has and their only motivation will be...Uh well.....UH I DONT KNOW  |
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houstone
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Can't get enough...
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« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2009, 01:17:35 AM » |
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The same way that every other industrial nation does, with less administrative overhead and better healthcare outcomes than in the US.
From the federal government? The federal government is incapable of less of anything, except positive outcomes in everything other than military action, and those are even a crapshoot given the civilian control. What a waste of literacy, PD. |
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« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2009, 04:30:53 AM » |
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The same way that every other industrial nation does, with less administrative overhead and better healthcare outcomes than in the US.
From the federal government? The federal government is incapable of less of anything, except positive outcomes in everything other than military action, and those are even a crapshoot given the civilian control. What a waste of literacy, PD. Ya know, I've run large scale, multi million dollar projects in a bunch of large companies. What makes you think they are any more efficient or better organized than government? Fact is, it is a rare large company that isn't inefficient and screwed up, no matter how many ISO 9000 certifications they have. If companies actually knew what they were doing, I wouldn't get hired. And folks like to blast the federal government for incompetence... but what I see is a lack of specifics. Hmmm... how about air traffic control... federal incompetent bastids have the best safety record in the world... as does the entire FAA... damn fouled up incapable arseholes those people are. And social security... bloody incompetent nincompoops!!! Handle billions of checks/deposits per year with error rates lower than a lot of banks. Medicare, medicaid... they do hunt fraud... those ignoramuses... they just don't get enough money to do it. Parks... yeh... how sh*tty is that arm of government... pull into a beautiful campground... the place is clean, the bathrooms work... those KOA folks got to be better organized! No way govt could get something right. Sure... government screws things up... but if you could see the things that companies do... and then cover up... you might have to rethink this really tired bashing of government incompetence. It's those incompetent bastards that a) Keep your highways repaired b) Run the space program c) Run the finest health research facilities in the world. d) Operate second to none nuclear facilities And ten thousand other things that you never even thought of. So... what exactly is government incompetent at??? |
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fstsix
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« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2009, 04:44:32 AM » |
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Well we started out on the right foot And then we became Political Correct.  http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/19/thursday-open-thread-gettysburg-edition/ Does FSTSIX do just a little work for The Department Of Defense oh just a little lol. Humm Always concerns me When we see The I word from a government Employee Talking to WE the People lol!!!! naaaa Ole Abe must have been thinking of some other we. |
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Varmintmist
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« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2009, 06:14:21 AM » |
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And folks like to blast the federal government for incompetence... but what I see is a lack of specifics. Hmmm... how about air traffic control... federal incompetent bastids have the best safety record in the world... as does the entire FAA... damn fouled up incapable arseholes those people are. I seem to remember something happining in the 80's that got the ATC working correctly. Hmmm what was that again? Wouldnt that be establishing a free market??? [And social security... bloody incompetent nincompoops!!! Handle billions of checks/deposits per year with error rates lower than a lot of banks. Medicare, medicaid... they do hunt fraud... those ignoramuses... they just don't get enough money to do it. With a less than inflation return on monies, the FACT that they dont have to give you anything, the govt. can stop payments today, the FACT that it is a ponzi scheme and anyone who ran something like the SS that didnt hold the gun would be in jail. How can you have a large error rate when you set the payout rules? If you think you are short, you dont pay, no big deal. No forgetting that the Govt. took the money and put it into the general fund, replacing assets with IOU's, which would be OK if the govt wasnt deflating the dollar and going into debt like there was no tommorow making the IOU's not even worth the original value. Here is a cool little calculator. http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2007/01/approximating-social-securitys-rate-of.html I might get a 1.73 rate of return, IF it is still around and they dont cut the "benefit" and dont make the retirement age post my death. Parks... yeh... how sh*tty is that arm of government... pull into a beautiful campground... the place is clean, the bathrooms work... those KOA folks got to be better organized! No way govt could get something right. I will give you that one. Throw enough money at anything and it can look good. In fact I know a parks service employee that has enough time on his hands to sue about a cross in the middle of a desert. I hunt and comp. shoot with his brother. Sure... government screws things up... but if you could see the things that companies do... and then cover up... you might have to rethink this really tired bashing of government incompetence. It's those incompetent bastards that a) Keep your highways repaired That is state DOT's not fed with some monies coming from the fed after they took it from the state and took their cut before giving it back.
You been through PA lately? The bridges in this state are falling apart. The wonderful govt. has blown tons of cash on worthless light rail, SEPTA, and the tunnel to no where in Pitt. that no one wanted and is closing in on 1/2 a billion $$ with 25% already not paid for and the project isnt close to completion. Now they want to start severance taxes in PA because of the Marcellas Shale gas formation which is posed as a soak the rich tax, and will be a tax on every energy using person, because (paraphrase) The trucks doing the drilling will damage the infrastructure. FYI, any township in PA can require damage bonds of any construction company, and they do. Any damage is already bonded for, this is another scam. The solution is to take more instead of actually using the money to do what tey were supposed to do with it. Another example is New Orleans, the money was collected to rebuild the dikes many times, given to N.O. many times. You can see how that worked out.b) Run the space program Again, you throw enough money at something and you can make it work. Unless you hadn't heard, there are private firms doing it now alsoc) Run the finest health research facilities in the world. Hate to break it to you but that is done by private industry. The govt nas never formulated a drug, ever. Yep Big Pharma gets big bucks for the 5.00 pills, the thing is the first pill cost 7 million to produce, now the rest only cost 5.00. When they are not allowed to make money, who is going to do the research? The same people who do it in the other countries, no one..d) Operate second to none nuclear facilities Those are company owned, not govt owned. BTW, they are aging and we are not allowed to build more of because of govt. even though it is a very safe and clean energy sourceSo... what exactly is government incompetent at??? Better question, what are they competant at, that requires fiscal responsibility. Any idiot can sling money at something until he gets a result that looks good. |
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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Churchill
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« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2009, 06:49:26 AM » |
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Nice try, Varmintmist... "throwing money" is always a great line... then you go way off base about SS... I might even agree that it is a Ponzi scheme... but is it well administered?
So... -2 for you... you have not provided a concrete example of government ineptness... you have provided fallout from the POLITICAL process... what about execution?
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Jeff K
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« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2009, 06:55:05 AM » |
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you have provided fallout from the POLITICAL process... what about execution?
Sounds like a good plan! |
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stormrider
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« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2009, 07:04:54 AM » |
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Hey SE, did you watch the Bill Moyers video posted by BF? Who's watching the hen house? And who's robbing who to pay for all these great wonderful gov't programs? Let me see, as last I heard, in about 1900, taxes, all taxes represented about 3% of a persons total income. Let me see, the scale in the good ole USA today is aproaching, what?????, @ 50%. Oh, well, there you have it. Let the thieves take enough of your money and give you a small percent back while still piling up a $12 trillion dollar deficit. Hummm, makes great substance for you to base your arguement on, doesn't it SE?
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Freedom will ultimately cost more than we care to pay but will be worth every drop of blood to those who follow and cherrish it.
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« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2009, 07:26:19 AM » |
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Hey SE, did you watch the Bill Moyers video posted by BF? Who's watching the hen house? And who's robbing who to pay for all these great wonderful gov't programs? Let me see, as last I heard, in about 1900, taxes, all taxes represented about 3% of a persons total income. Let me see, the scale in the good ole USA today is aproaching, what?????, @ 50%. Oh, well, there you have it. Let the thieves take enough of your money and give you a small percent back while still piling up a $12 trillion dollar deficit. Hummm, makes great substance for you to base your arguement on, doesn't it SE?
That's a very simplistic view of taxation. The responsibilities of government have increased enormously, and not because some grubby bastid created a conspiracy to do that but because the times we live in are enormously more complex. Why is it 'thieves'? You have such a negative view of people. I'm not saying they get it all right... I am saying that the vast majority of people are honorably intentioned, and the world we live in is far more complex that it was in 1900. If you transplanted the government of 1900 into today, it would fail miserably. You, however, are convinced that everything that goes on is malevolent... and you forget a cardinal rule... never attribute to malevolence that which can be attributed to sheer stupidity. PS: As long as China is holding our debt, it is a good thing... keeps them seriously in tow... they won't do anything to harm the US that would jeopardize the investment they hold. |
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Charlie
Member
Posts: 322
It's not what you say you do that counts.....
Grand Rapids, MI
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« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2009, 08:39:53 AM » |
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The same way that every other industrial nation does, with less administrative overhead and better healthcare outcomes than in the US.
From the federal government? The federal government is incapable of less of anything, except positive outcomes in everything other than military action, and those are even a crapshoot given the civilian control. What a waste of literacy, PD. Though I don't pretend to know the big picture, I can say that during these times of increased bankruptcy, the courts in Grand Rapids are running with about 75% of the workforce they had five years ago, and are handling way more bankruptcy cases then there were five years ago. I think that suggests they are making attempts to downsize. |
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 States I have visited on my motorcycles Charlie #23695 |
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Willow
Administrator
Member
Posts: 16631
Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP
Olathe, KS
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« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2009, 11:46:53 AM » |
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What makes you think they are any more efficient or better organized than government? Experience.
I've no real interest in arguing with people who look for an argument and then claim superiority of their plea by simply discounting anyone's counterpoint, so I won't.
What we are wasting a lot of effort on is debating something that is going to happen whether we are against it or whether we are simply banging the drum loudly in hopes that volume will cover a lack of genuine logic.
Whether what is about to transpire is the result of an organized conspiracy, simply stumbled upon in incompetence, or has long been the targeted direction of well intentioned and wise public servants is not a meaningful discussion. What is true is that we are about to witness a debacle. We are soon to participate in that debacle whether it is of our own choosing or otherwise.
To those who are silly enough to wave the banner and sing the praises if this lunacy, I borrow a phrase from our brethren of the Southern United States. "Hide and watch." |
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stormrider
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« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2009, 09:35:36 AM » |
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Hey SE, did you watch the Bill Moyers video posted by BF? Who's watching the hen house? And who's robbing who to pay for all these great wonderful gov't programs? Let me see, as last I heard, in about 1900, taxes, all taxes represented about 3% of a persons total income. Let me see, the scale in the good ole USA today is aproaching, what?????, @ 50%. Oh, well, there you have it. Let the thieves take enough of your money and give you a small percent back while still piling up a $12 trillion dollar deficit. Hummm, makes great substance for you to base your arguement on, doesn't it SE?
That's a very simplistic view of taxation. The responsibilities of government have increased enormously, and not because some grubby bastid created a conspiracy to do that but because the times we live in are enormously more complex. Why is it 'thieves'? You have such a negative view of people. I'm not saying they get it all right... I am saying that the vast majority of people are honorably intentioned, and the world we live in is far more complex that it was in 1900. If you transplanted the government of 1900 into today, it would fail miserably. You, however, are convinced that everything that goes on is malevolent... and you forget a cardinal rule... never attribute to malevolence that which can be attributed to sheer stupidity. PS: As long as China is holding our debt, it is a good thing... keeps them seriously in tow... they won't do anything to harm the US that would jeopardize the investment they hold. Yes, thieves! When someone takes without asking it is called stealing, which makes you a thief. Or better yet, when they take your money and spend it on something as unthinkable as murdering un-born babies, well, I see that as being un-Godly. Planned Parenthood recieves taxpayer funds. They are the largest murder facility in the US. I think as far as we have slidden down the slippery slope of sin that the only hope we have is for a God sent revival and a taxpayer revolt in order of what our forefathers engaged in in the 1770's and the 1860's. But what do I know? I'm just a peasant with a pessimistic view of our greedy leadership in Washingto, DC. Let them live on what I made this year, let them experience the same retirement plan I have, etc. As for the majority of government workers, sure, they may be good honest people trying their best to fulfill their job obligations but let them take the same cuts I've been faced with over the past two years, let the federal judges that have undermined the banking laws with their bought for decisions live on my salary. Yes it is a complex society but it is real simple as well, let the government live within it's means! No more deficit spending. Reduce the deficit. Quit using fiat money. Eliminate fractional banking. Take control of our currency away from the Federal Reserve Bank and turn it back over to the Treasury and the Congress. Return our manufacturing to America which is what made us a great nation. As for China holding our debt, your reasoning has no logic. Why the heck do we have deficit spending in the first place? We'd be much stonger without any debt. Singapore has no national debt, does it? They are investing billions but not in the US. Humm, wonder why? All the debt. So how does debt put us in a better position with China? And yes, SE, I take a simplistic view at lots of things. It keeps it simple. Such as, don't spend more than what you have, especially when it is someone else's money. Or, how about eliminating waste. Now that's a novel idea. Government has gotten so big and complex, not out of neccesity but out of lack of control. We the people handed control over to the government and let em run wild with it. I did a search several years ago about the agencies within the federal government. Found several hundred of them. Some that the majority of us would have never heard of or never will nor will ever derive any benfit from. But that's okay. Let em tax and spend for there is no end to the supply of bonds our debtors will write for us. It is coming down, when, I hope later than sooner, but it is inevitable. |
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« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 10:04:20 AM by stormrider »
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Freedom will ultimately cost more than we care to pay but will be worth every drop of blood to those who follow and cherrish it.
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¿spoom
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« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2009, 02:50:27 PM » |
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Jeff K quote;
"You are implying that health care is a right. That is BS. Health care is a service.
Some people don't need auto insurance because they can't afford a car.
Some people live without air conditioning because they can't afford it.
Why should ANYTHING be free?
Health care is not a right. Poor people deserve health care because "I" work hard enough to pay for it?
Maybe I should pay for all their other comfort items too? Bizarre!
Earn your own money
Pay your own way
Is that to much to ask?"
I'm OK with that on one condition-not a dime of my tax money goes to pay anyone else's health care bills. Until then I'm fed up enough to cancel all insurance companies and go to a single payer system with a flat % of income to pay for it. I've been paying for others' bills all my life. Had enough. I pay about $350/mo. with $5000 deductible. I've got a bad wrist and partial hernia I can't afford to have fixed, yet I've had no problems paying for other's medical bills in prison, welfare, etc. The insurance companies had their chance, bring on the Canadian or UK system, I'm willing to give it a shot..
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