noise from engine on my old 97 red and white

[RedValk]

ok, I've been tracking down this noise all winter. In the beginning, i tried all the obvious EXTERNAL things (ie, NOT the engine).....buzz bolt, accessories, Kury covers, radiator cover, etc. All winter....though i didn't ride much.....as time/riding goes by, the noise keeps getting a little louder/worse. So i took it to the dealer.....and they checked a bunch of stuff. I've been talking about this over on the Rune board I run. Here is a post i made today over there....complete with some things checked out last week....and a video (link on youtube) with the sound at the bottom of the quoted post. I'm 99.99% sure it's in the engine. ANY THOUGHTS on what it might be? Note that i drained the oil last night and there was not one trace of anything wrong as far as metal debri, etc.

Click on the link in the quoted post for the video....I don't know how to post videos on this board.

ok, got the bike back yesterday. Here's what we know/ has been checked:

1. Pulled alternator.....said there was some play on a shaft coming out of the alternator (and i think going into the engine?)....but otherwise, nothing found there. Shaft just has a LITTLE play
2. pulled water pump, NOTHING found
3. Pulled timing belt cover from front and checked out everything there.
4. At my request, checked all 6 spark plugs for tightness
5. At my request, replaced all 6 exhaust header crush gaskets and retightened
6. Did general check over of everything easily checked.
7. Checked "buzz bolt"....long bolt holding top of frame for tightness
8. Pulled valve covers and inspected, nothing found

Noise still there....no change.

So, after driving home....i replaced oil and oil filter
Inspected oil by draining it thru a paper towel and inspecting oil. NOTHING FOUND.....no metal shavings....etc....perfect oil and no debris. Filter seemed normal too.

Replaced oil....AND added Lucas oil treatment. Here's what it sounds like (the same, no change) in the Youtube video (via the link) below. Again, it's MUCH louder when the engine is started cold. As it warms up, it gets noticeably QUIETER. this video was taken this morning....cold start. I'll try to do another one this weekend after it's warmed up. Oh, I am standing next to the gas tank....and a few times i rev the engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSNuSyo_X1o

[RedValk]

forgot to mention, bikes runs /performs perfectly....no issues....period. Just sounds like CRAP!

[Harryc]

Good one. I'm going to go with bad clutch. Does the noise change at all when you pull the clutch handle in? In neutral vs in gear? How many miles on this bike?

[indybobm]

Just some ideas:
What happens when you pull the clutch lever in 1/2 way? All the way?
Does it change when you put it in gear with the clutch lever pulled?
When you pulled the timing cover off, did you remove the tension from the tensioner pullys and check them?
Could it be a bent shift arm? With the clutched pulled in, move the shift lever SLIGHTLY up and down. Does it change?
Have you had the clutch assembly out?
Did you try it with the alternator out?

[Moonshot_1]

Not a mechanic but do read these boards often.

One thing that I have noticed brought up concerning 97s is rivet problems with the clutch.
I am going to say that is what you got going on. Probably wouldn't affect the performance of the clutch initially but I'd bet you are heading to a clutch failure. The sound would make sense and you've seemed to have ruled out the practical suspects.

[RedValk]

i'll check all these things tonight.....to confirm....but as i recall (cause it's been going for months...literally....and I've been investigating it more and more)...

1. no change when clutch pulled in or out
2. no change in gear.....folks even hear it when i leave work and pull out of the parking lot....and ....when i ride it a block away and go through a Publix parking lot.....people turn around and look ....I'm pretty sure cause they hear it and think "what the heck is that!"
3. it's there at idle....it's there in gear.....it's PROBABLY there at high speed....but due to wind and exhaust noise.....I can't tell for sure
4. the shop pulled the alternator (as noted).....and all they could find was a little bit of play with a shaft that comes out of the alternator ....but that wasn't the noise
5. Clutch has NOT been checked at all...but clutch performs perfectly when riding
6. 126,000 miles, had it just under 20 years
7. i didn't pull the timing cover, the shop did (as noted)...but....they said they checked EVERYTHING out. In fact, my first guess long ago....was something in the timing belt area....like a tensioner or a bearing on a tensioner or something. The timing belt  'area' was my top guess. They/shop said no.
8. the shops top guess was something in the water pump or the alternator....but....NOPE.
9. Some other folks on other boards guessed transmission problems or clutch.....with clutch being mentioned by several. My question is....wouldn't you see SOME kind of performance issue? And, when draining the oil.....if something "is toast"....wouldn't you find SOMETHING in the oil....at least some metal debri or something?

Again, I'll go recheck these suggestions on pulling in clutch....in and out of gear...etc....tonight when i get home. I'll try to ride it and post a video when it's warmed up.....just for the heck of it. MUCH quieter after it's been ridden a few miles (thank goodness, i get tired of folks looking at me in parking lots and traffic lights....when the bike isn't warmed up much!   )

[hubcapsc]

7. i didn't pull the timing cover, the shop did (as noted)...but....they said they checked EVERYTHING out. In fact, my first guess long ago....was something in the timing belt area....like a tensioner or a bearing on a tensioner or something. The timing belt  'area' was my top guess. They/shop said no.

I'm not competent to be behind the timing cover, but... tensioner or tensioner bearing
would have been my guess too... I'm not sure how they inspected them to ensure they
were OK... how would you knowledgeable folks do it?

-Mike

[Leathel]

If it had a timing chain I would of said that..... but it has belt and they have been checked

Aren't the oil pumps chain driven? if it is I would be checking that ASAP as if that fails it will be costly!

Its certainly not from one cylinder so it must be crank speed, and doesn't stop after the clutch is in so not gearbox.... Water pump checked, alt checked, timing belts checked....oil pump, starter gear setup...do they have a one way clutch like some? Ive not looked

[Leathel]

Had a quick look and there is 2 oil pumps.... one is chain driven



http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1999/GL1500C+A/OIL+PUMP/parts.html

[Tfrank59]

Given that you have ruled out the clutch to your own satisfaction and I think it's reasonable that if it does it all the time in gear or out it's not the clutch then you should look at something in the valve train. What you can do if you feel confident is pull the timing cover yourself it's very simple and you can actually run the bike slowly with the timing cover off. If it's not anything to do with the timing belts or tensioners or if it is you'll know for sure when you run it with the timing cover removed.  by the way I guess you like your Honda dealer and trust him but it's not the same as seeing it with your own eyes. Then once you rule out anything to do with the timing belts I would go further down the valve train which of course means pulling the valve covers and checking your cams. But running it with the timing cover off first would be my play which is an easy one that cost nothing except maybe an hour. Keep us posted

[SCain]

RedValk,
I don't see a mention of the noise increasing with RPM.
As many have mentioned, pull that front cover, tensioners have known to go bad.
I heard once about a clutch push rod making a bunch of racket, have to pull the slave to get to it.
Good Luck

[RedValk]

called the dealer and asked (yes, i've used the same mechanic 20 years, ever since i got this bike...and he does all four of my bikes, my 4 wheeler, my utility vehicle......and i do indeed trust and know him well.....they only let this ONE guy work on my bikes):

1. Bike was run with timing belt cover off....and checked for issues. None.
2. Valve covers were removed, and valves rechecked......no issue there.
3. Alternator removed and checked
4. Water pump removed and checked

They were to the point where to check ANYTHING else, would require pulling the engine and tearing it down.

I'm thinking about running some sea foam in the oil ....per a suggestion from another board. And again, I'm puzzled that NOTHING came out in the oil change (and I did that)....nothing.....not a single sliver of metal or debri....it was clean as could be.

I'll be going over it some more tonight....and this weekend no doubt. As it's been going on over 3 months.....I'm about at my whits end....as in....I'm starting to seriously think about sadly getting rid of the bike and getting another bike.....like maybe an F6B or something. I'd miss the old 97 though..........

My brother in KC offered to take out engine and tear it down and fix whatever it is....but to get the bike up there (no way I'd trust it to RIDE it up there).....the fuel to get it up there would be about 200 there and 200 back. And i would no doubt have to leave it with him a while. THen .....it would be another 200 up and back to go back and get it.....plus hotel....etc. I could just pay local dealer to do that....IF....I want to put another 1000 + dollars into the bike.

[Tfrank59]

 so clearly the Honda shop thought it was in the valve train also. It sure sounds like it to me. Unless it could be something like that oil pump you were talking about. Well let us know what you learn. For what it's worth I would never have a motor torn down just for inspection, especially a bulletproof Valkyrie engine

[John Schmidt]

Sounds to me like a fan blade hitting something. Don't feel that's the problem, it's just what it sounds like so I'd look for something that may have come loose and a timing pulley or something else is hitting it as it goes around. Really weird sound, I must say. Don't think it's a clutch.

[Harryc]

Did a little research on odd Valk noises and ran into the linked thread that talks about replacing the rear clutch bearing. Can you get a length of garden hose and listen around the bike to see if you can pinpoint where the noise is the loudest?  http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php?topic=21108.0

[Ricky-D]

Without seeing more of the bike, and better pictures each time you change the position of the camera, I would say you have something inside your exhaust that is vibrating. It does sound like you have aftermarket exhaust on the bike although it cannot be seen.

You want better analysis? You need to do a better job of pictures of what the camera is listening to.

But I still think you've something vibrating inside your exhaust.

***

[Chrisj CMA]

Tim, I had a Yamaha Maxim 750 that made the same noise. I t was the oil pump chain. Since your noise ( like mine) seems to stop when you accelerate, that would say to me the chain gets some more tension on it an stops rubbing on the guard

[bentwrench]

This might be a longshot,but if yours is de-smoged. When i de-smoged my 98 I cut and plugged each fitting at the cyl. head.
what I didn't realize was that I missed the alignment of the little brackets that hold the front top plugs under the engine guard.It didn't take long for these plugs to work their way out far enough for the exhaust pressure to  rattle them against the engine guard,it sounded a lot like your noise and would come and go at different rpms.Good luck

[bassman]

Tim,
Do you have one of these or have access to one to possibly help isolate the area where the sound/noise is coming from?

http://t.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-69913.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

[JimC]

I am with BASSMAN, it is amazing how you can narrow down a noise with one of those.

Good luck, Jim

[..]

You can put a hard plastic handled screwdriver blade against the engine and "listen" to the noise coming from the handle.

Don't laugh. It works.

[Chrisj CMA]

You can put a hard plastic handled screwdriver blade against the engine and "listen" to the noise coming from the handle.

Don't laugh. It works.

Britman, you failed to explain how one must curl his thumb around the end of the screwdriver then place the first nuckle in the ear. Then it works well.

[..]

You can put a hard plastic handled screwdriver blade against the engine and "listen" to the noise coming from the handle.

Don't laugh. It works.

Britman, you failed to explain how one must curl his thumb around the end of the screwdriver then place the first nuckle in the ear. Then it works well.

Are pulling my leg?

I've just held ear to handle and it's like a stethoscope.

[Hook#3287]

Good one. I'm going to go with bad clutch. Does the noise change at all when you pull the clutch handle in? In neutral vs in gear? How many miles on this bike?

That's a nasty sound.  Kinda does sound clutch related, but get your hands on a mechanics stethoscope and you should be able to nail it down more.

Or the hose, or the screwdriver, with or without the special finger curl trick.

[John Schmidt]

I'm with Britman, I've never used that method. I just put my long screwdriver tip where I wanted to listen and my ear on the handle. No problem hearing anything.

[97BLKVALK]

You can put a hard plastic handled screwdriver blade against the engine and "listen" to the noise coming from the handle.

Don't laugh. It works.

Britman, you failed to explain how one must curl his thumb around the end of the screwdriver then place the first nuckle in the ear. Then it works well.

Britman,

Standard screwdriver or phillips blade.

Michael


Are pulling my leg?

I've just held ear to handle and it's like a stethoscope.

[Firefighter]

If you can't isolate with a screw driver where the sound is coming from I would drop the exhaust and start it. Sounds like it could be something broke loose in the exhaust and you said the sound is less after warm up. I would try that before I tore into the engine.

[Gabriel]

It certainly sounds rotating to me:
I always used a long bladed screw driver against my ear. (works every time)
Get one of these and isolate the location (general area on the engine). 4 bucks Harbor freight

[RedValk]

a ton......literally....a ton of GOOD advice. Too much to comment on ALL of it! I really do appreciate EACH AND EVERY response. So.....some updates from my end:

Tried pulling in clutch.....fully....half way....etc, no change in sound.

Tried putting in gear.....no change in sound.

Under load.....no change in sound.

For what's it worth, no oil pressure warning light (yet?)

I'm going by HF today at lunch to pick up the stethoscope and continue listening this weekend....and I'll be trying some things/checking some things.....even taking some parts off....

This bike was desmogged long ago by Big BF at an InZane. The screwdrive "thing" definitely tells me the sound is coming from the engine. I just need to try and isolate it further.

If i were to guess (and I am NOT, repeat NOT a good mechanic).....but with that caveat said, my best guess given all I've heard/seen so far.....is what Jeff said about the oil pump chain being loose/worn and rubbing on a guard or something like that. The real issue will be....if it does wind up being something that requires pulling the engine (and everything seems to point to that....to my layman eyes).....I'm just not sure what I'll do at that point. I know, I AM NOT personally pulling the engine. I just don't feel comfortable with my level of expertise doing that. The bike is 20 years old.....long, long, long ago paid for. Has given me LOTS of pleasure over those 20 years.....and 126,000 miles. One option is i just don't fix it. I thank it for 20 years of faithful service and move on. Another option is sell it for parts. Or....possibly TRY to trade it in on a new F6B (granted, would no doubt get very little for it in this condition?).

I just don't know if I'm willing to put 1000 bucks or more in a 20 year old bike. that's what the dealer wants to take engine out and tear it down. Again, I AM NOT DOING THAT.....personally.....   I'll tear your Cisco router apart or trouble shoot million dollar complex networks in the IT world, design and trouble shoot complex antenna and transmission line systems....etc, etc.....but tear down an engine? not this fella'...................

[Gabriel]

You will be able to locate it with a stethoscope, if it's behind the timing cover you can isolate it by putting the scope probe on the bolts of rotating parts.

[Leathel]

If it cant be isolated to the front the rear clutch case is likely where the sound is coming from, It houses the 2 oil pumps (one chain driven)

the chain for the oil pump $35.28the starter clutch ($147)
 the alt gear $220(has a damper setup)
and of coarse the clutch.... to many parts to list but kits are available for plates after market and the housings are not too bad if got from the right place (outer $251.47 has a rt of $354)

Your bike has a fault and will not need all done ..... if you could do the spanner work under $500 would cover it

1K and its a cheap fix still compared to the cost of the bike, you bike is not worth much with the noise..... so if keeping or selling it should work out cheaper to fix it than replace the bike or sell it as is. Unless you can find someone keen to pay good money for it as is

(parts prices from http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1999/GL1500C+A/parts.html )

[RedValk]

NEWSFLASH: Just did about 30 minutes of listening with Harbor Freight mechanics stethoscope (I picked up at lunch)......kept moving around, moving around....listening.....and then.....i touched it to the oil filter....BINGO.....there it is....loud as loud can be. In fact, when i touch the metal probe to the MIDDLE of the oil filter, not only is it loud as hell....and clear (the sound)....the probe starts VIBRATING with the noise. Now, i just replaced the oil filter, so no, it's not that. It's something connected to the oil filter though.....that's FOR SURE! I moved it ALL around the entire rest of the bike....nowhere do you hear (and FEEL) it like the center of the oil filter.





ok, in the picture above....is the end of that shaft coming out of the middle of the oil pump area...that looks to be threaded on the end....is that what feeds to the oil filter? If so, whatever is making that noise is either directly attached to that shaft, or dang close to it!

[Gabriel]

I don't know about that chain, all of that is on the back of the engine.
There is really nothing right behind the oil filter, and you said you changed the filter but I wonder is it the same kind of filter as the old one? I assume it did it with the old one?
It only does it when it's cold if I remember what you said, could it be the pressure relief valve in the filter beer canning? When it's cold is probably the only time that valve really functions much. (more or less)
Just a thought...

[Harryc]

Whatever it is, if the noise is down in that area you'd have to pull the engine and remove the crankcase to fix it.  Broken main oil pump maybe...also noise does travel so the chain on the scavenge pump is possible. Something let go in your crankcase.

[Tfrank59]

a ton......literally....a ton of GOOD advice. Too much to comment on ALL of it! I really do appreciate EACH AND EVERY response. So.....some updates from my end:

Tried pulling in clutManufacturing hch.....fully....half way....etc, no change in sound.

Tried putting in gear.....no change in sound.

Under load.....no change in sound.

For what's it worth, no oil pressure warning light (yet?)

I'm going by HF today at lunch to pick up the stethoscope and continue listening this weekend....and I'll be trying some things/checking some things.....even taking some parts off....

This bike was desmogged long ago by Big BF at an InZane. The screwdrive "thing" definitely tells me the sound is coming from the engine. I just need to try and isolate it further.

If i were to guess (and I am NOT, repeat NOT a good mechanic).....but with that caveat said, my best guess given all I've heard/seen so far.....is what Jeff said about the oil pump chain being loose/worn and rubbing on a guard or something like that. The real issue will be....if it does wind up being something that requires pulling the engine (and everything seems to point to that....to my layman eyes).....I'm just not sure what I'll do at that point. I know, I AM NOT personally pulling the engine. I just don't feel comfortable with my level of expertise doing that. The bike is 20 years old.....long, long, long ago paid for. Has given me LOTS of pleasure over those 20 years.....and 126,000 miles. One option is i just don't fix it. I thank it for 20 years of faithful service and move on. Another option is sell it for parts. Or....possibly TRY to trade it in on a new F6B (granted, would no doubt get very little for it in this condition?).

I just don't know if I'm willing to put 1000 bucks or more in a 20 year old bike. that's what the dealer wants to take engine out and tear it down. Again, I AM NOT DOING THAT.....personally.....   I'll tear your Cisco router apart or trouble shoot million dollar complex networks in the IT world, design and trouble shoot complex antenna and transmission line systems....etc, etc.....but tear down an engine? not this fella'...................

Yep I wouldn't blame you a bit if you let her go if the motor needs to be removed for this fix.  I would do the same thing. I like the way you put it you say thank you to the old girl and then sell it as is. We're not getting any younger. I'm in this for the ride not so much for the science.  Just my 1.5 cents

[RedValk]

I don't know about that chain, all of that is on the back of the engine.
There is really nothing right behind the oil filter, and you said you changed the filter but I wonder is it the same kind of filter as the old one? I assume it did it with the old one?
It only does it when it's cold if I remember what you said, could it be the pressure relief valve in the filter beer canning? When it's cold is probably the only time that valve really functions much. (more or less)
Just a thought...

it is louder when cold, not so loud when warmed up. It did it with the old oil filter....that had been on there a year. then i changed oil and filter two days ago....and it still does it exactly the same with this new oil filter. i don't see how it could be the oil filter? Someone else on the Rune board suggested checking to see if the "boss" the oil filter goes on is tight.

So are you saying ....in that picture i posted/copied above....the oil filter doesn't connect to that shaft coming out the middle of that picture? If so, that chain would have to be real close behind the oil filter. Or am i missing something (which is possible!)?

[RedValk]

local Honda shop (i just called) would want between 1000-1300 to replace that chain on the oil pump....if....that was the issue.

[Harryc]

local Honda shop (i just called) would want between 1000-1300 to replace that chain on the oil pump....if....that was the issue.

Just a thought. I know you don't want to tackle it but maybe you can find someone who does. You can get a complete Valkyrie engine for much less than that, maybe half that. Just say'in it's an option. If I was local I'd help you. Any members down there in Bama? Come on guys, help this member ...

[Gabriel]

So are you saying ....in that picture i posted/copied above....the oil filter doesn't connect to that shaft coming out the middle of that picture? If so, that chain would have to be real close behind the oil filter. Or am i missing something (which is possible!)?
[/quote]

That chain is in the back of the engine it drives the scavenge pump, the shaft continues on to the main oil pump.
I don't see anything right behind the oil filter but oil passages. However I don't have an exploded view of the engine which would show everything.
I would think oil is viscous and damping  and unable to transmit noise, I also don't think you have located the problem, you may have found the loudest noise but the filter may just be propagating or channeling the noise.

[Harryc]

That chain is in the back of the engine it drives the scavenge pump, the shaft continues on to the main oil pump.
I don't see anything right behind the oil filter but oil passages. However I don't have an exploded view of the engine which would show everything.
I would think oil is viscous and damping  and unable to transmit noise, I also don't think you have located the problem, you may have found the loudest noise but the filter may just be propagating or channeling the noise.

Yeah I thought the same Gabriel, but I'll tell you what that shaft would sure help noise travel. Anyway, we're just making small talk. The engine needs to be pulled.