noise from engine on my old 97 red and white

[Gabriel]

After listening to the noise again with head phones, it almost sounds like a piston or wrist pin, maybe even something on top of the piston.
That's easy to verify; just pull one plug wire off at a time and run the engine.
I would put a spark plug in the wire and lay it on the engine, easier on the ignition parts that way.
Again just a thought and easy to verify...

[Harryc]

 Good idea ...

[Gabriel]

I would never send a job to the unit room (engine and main component overhaul) without verifying or isolating the problem.
If this engine had say a crack in the upper side of the wrist pin boss on cylinder #1 piston you would never see it under normal inspection.
I guess you could install a used engine like was suggested and never know what was wrong with your old one but that would drive me crazy not knowing what it was.
I worked with German automotive engineers for almost twenty years and not finding what was causing this noise would not be an option.
I worked in the field for VW Porsche/Audi as a Diagnostician before I went to Honda.

[Icelander]

Is it the same brand of filter that you had on there before?

I'm too much of a hardware geek:
I'd break out the welder and cut the cover off of a new filter, gut it and weld the cover back on. If the noise goes away, you know it's the filter. If not then it's time to break out the engine diagrams and see what might be connected to the shaft of that filter thread and use an endoscope to see if I can see something amiss in there.

But that's just me.
Icelander

[Leathel]

After listening to the noise again with head phones, it almost sounds like a piston or wrist pin, maybe even something on top of the piston.
That's easy to verify; just pull one plug wire off at a time and run the engine.
I would put a spark plug in the wire and lay it on the engine, easier on the ignition parts that way.
Again just a thought and easy to verify...

to me the sound is too quick to be 1 piston related.... but no harm in trying

[Leathel]

Oil flow to the filter looks to be quite direct so a flow tube could transmit the noise?

[Leathel]

behind the oil filter

[Gabriel]

Based on the drawing it's not a tube, it's a machined passage in the block

[Pete]

Transmission bearing/shaft? or Shifter fork/cam issues?
That is what is in the front bottom of the crankcase.

Otherwise front main bearing and front 2 rod bearings.

If you can handle complex network communications you can handle a Valk engine rebuild.
It is not rocket science.

If you end up spliting the cases, plan on a bearings and rings and some other parts.

[Leathel]

Based on the drawing it's not a tube, it's a machined passage in the block

The scavenge oil pump is for sure the main oil pump possible as the pick with the cover off shows the oil pipe, likely to be just in the case but not sure,  but I am not convinced it would transmit to the filter from the rear of the engine

If it were me I would pull transmission cover the filter mounts to as there are some possible culprits in there and its not engine out...

Ohh wait I see the drive for the water pump..... It looks to be driven from the same shaft as the oil pump and scavenger pump... so a direct line to the back.... I will look further

[Leathel]

that shaft that drives the water pump looks to be driven from the same chain as the oil pumps

If you were to remove the water pump and check for for movement in the impeller it would indicate a loose chain  (not bearing slop but forward and back rotation movement) 

[Leathel]

If it looks to be that chain the parts are not expensive but it is under the clutch so would be engine out, Clutch out, rear housing off etc but not split the case.... but step by step not that hard, but doable for most with the service manual

[RedValk]

when i put the mechanic's stethoscope probe on the center of the oil filter....the vibration is bad enough  to make the probe tip rattle and not want to remain in contact. It is QUITE loud at the center of the oil filter (with the probe).

The shop did pull the water pump and inspect that area.

I've had this noise over a period of months....and with two different oil filters. the original filter was on their at least a year. The second one put on this week.

[Chrisj CMA]

If it looks to be that chain the parts are not expensive but it is under the clutch so would be engine out, Clutch out, rear housing off etc but not split the case.... but step by step not that hard, but doable for most with the service manual

Since it is proven you can change the clutch without removing the engine. I would think you can change the oil pump chain without removing the engine as well.

[RedValk]

alright.....I spent the weekend looking/probing the bike with the mechanic's stethoscope....and....finally.....reading the service manual.....lots of pages in the service manual ....and studied all the pictures.

So, after doing that....and rereading some of the posts....I noted a few of you had mentioned there is not much behind the oil filter .....or....that the chain and guide, oil pump, pressure relief valve, etc....are all in the BACK of the engine. I get that now.

So looking at the pictures in the service manual, what is DIRECTLY behind the oil filter....is part of the shifter linkage/arm. As loud as that noise is...IN THE CENTER OF THE OIL FILTER....plus, the way the probe is literally vibrating when touching the center of the oil filter....makes me wonder, could it possibly be something with the parts for the shifter located IMMEDIATELY behind the oil filter? like something loose .....rubbing on the transmission cover RIGHT WHERE THE OIL FILTER MOUNTS? Could it be something like that? If so....would there be any symptoms in the bike (other than noise)....ie....wouldn't that somehow affect shifting gears? I have no problems shifting gears, but where I'm going with this....is....would it be worth attempting to pull the transmission cover and seeing if something is amiss behind the cover with those shifter parts?

And...................can you remove that cover WITHOUT pulling the engine from the frame (the service manual seems to indicate you can).

Do you more knowledgeable folks think it would be worth looking behind that transmission cover, assuming it can be accessed without pulling the engine?

I just find it hard to believe the problem would be something in the BACK of the bike (ie, chain or chain guide for oil pump, oil pump pressure relief valve, etc.). One, i find it hard to understand why the ONE ONLY ONE PLACE....I can really hear the sound (and feel a vibration)....is on the very middle of the oil filter. How would the sound transfer from the back to the front....and why is it SO MUCH MORE PRONOUNCED....on the very middle of the oil filter...in both sound and vibration. And why ....when i search with the stethoscope probe....can't i find the sound ANYWHERE else on the bike...to include the back? yea, you can barely hear the sound....you can barely hear it all over the engine. But the ONLY place you distinctly hear it AND FEEL it....is on the center of the oil filter.

I caveat all above with saying I am NOT a mechanic....and i did NOT stay in a Holiday Inn Express recently    

[RedValk]

to clarify....see the area at bottom left of picture....the area behind the oil filter....is there something in there that could be causing the noise and vibration on the center of the oil filter? (ignore the area in red on right side of picture, that was someone else making a point on this picture earlier)

[..]

Without  wanting to sound too silly have you thought about taking the oil filter off and putting a different make on?

[RedValk]

i did take the oil filter off last week, and put a brand new OEM Honda oil filter on. No difference.........

[Chrisj CMA]

The reason you hear/feel the most in the center of the oil filter is because whatever is making the noise is transmitting the noise through the metal of the engine to the threaded post that the filter threads onto. It really doesn't matter where the actual bad part is if it has a mechanical link to where you are hearing it.

I would get Attic Rat's opinion if you don't already

[Leathel]

to clarify....see the area at bottom left of picture....the area behind the oil filter....is there something in there that could be causing the noise and vibration on the center of the oil filter? (ignore the area in red on right side of picture, that was someone else making a point on this picture earlier)

Its probably worth a look, Just a gaskets needed if you tear them....but I cant think of what could cause that noise that wouldn't stop with the clutch and putting it is gear.

 

[RedValk]

The reason you hear/feel the most in the center of the oil filter is because whatever is making the noise is transmitting the noise through the metal of the engine to the threaded post that the filter threads onto. It really doesn't matter where the actual bad part is if it has a mechanical link to where you are hearing it.

I would get Attic Rat's opinion if you don't already

I hear ya' (pun intended)....but....It's just kind of curious to me that if the noise were coming from somewhere else.....anywhere else....wouldn't you hear the noise when you put the probe close to THAT area? So far, the ONLY place i hear the noise STRONG....and feel vibration is in the center of the oil filter. I guess you're saying since the oil filters threads on .....it's picking up the vibration on the part that it threads on. but if that's the case, why don't i hear the noise strong when i put the probe on the case RIGHT NEXT to the oil filter? Is perhaps the oil filter acting as some kind of echo chamber? Anyway, I just find it odd just how loud that sound is....and how strong the vibration is....on the center of the oil filter. I agree that it could be coming from the "boss" or whatever you call the "thing" you thread the oil filter onto....but looking at the picture in the service manual, there is no pipe that is coming out of the engine where the oil filter connects. It appears that it must just be a threaded connection that is part of the transmission cover. So why doesn't the probe pick up the noise....or vibration....equally well right next to the oil filter on the transmission cover?

It's just puzzling to me. Several people on the Rune board asked what Britman asked....about trying different oil filters....something about a defective valve on an oil filter, but again, i tried a brand new HOnda OEM oil filter with the same results. So I'm 99.9999% sure (an Engineer will just about never say 100% sure, we always leave that buffer for some "esoteric" possibility!) it's NOT the oil filter.

Again, if the noise was being caused at the back of the engine....or somewhere else....by something like that chain we've been talking about.....I'd think....when you put the probe near where that part is located......you'd hear the noise louder....clearer.

But again, the ONLY place i hear the noise loud....and clear.....is at the center of the oil filter. You have to press the probe pretty hard onto the center....to keep it from vibrating off....the noise and vibration are so strong at that location. Before looking at the service manual....I was assuming there was some kind of "boss" or "tube"....that might run from where the oil filter attaches toward the oil pump, etc. But alas, looking at the service manual diagrams, there doesn't appear to be any pipe or direct path from the oil filter to the oil pump, etc. Again, to me....it looks like there must just be some threaded connection point that is part of the transmission cover (for the oil filter connection)? And that just makes me keep saying.....if the noise is that loud on the center of the oil filter, why not right NEXT to the center too?

[Gabriel]

I suggested you get the stethoscope because I have used this method for decades (I actually used a long screw driver most of the time).
I have never heard a noise being emitted louder from somewhere other than the actual origin, I certainly believe you, I'm just puzzled as to how this is happening?
So you know it's not the oil filter itself, could it be the oil pump or pressure relief valve is pulsing in such a way as to cause the filter to make noise? (never heard of that either)
Someone makes and oil filter housing that uses an internal filter, if that was easily available for this application would solve a lot of unknowns, you could mount it up empty and test it.
http://www.knfilters.com/kn/billet_oil_filter.aspx
http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35925

What the back side of the oil filter cover looks like;


The front side:


There is absolutely nothing there. you can see the oil channels on the back side.

[Gavin_Sons]

I think it is time for you to pull the motor and act like you are doing a hydrolocked bike. pull the clutch basket and the rear case. I bet you find your problem in that rear case. and check the chain while you are in there.

[indybobm]

I think I would replace the front transmission cover.
If you look at the right side front of the engine with the transmission cover off there are two tubes with o-rings. These tubes transfer oil to and from the filter through the channels in the front cover.
There could be a foreign object trapped in the channels that is pulsating with the oil pressure. Sounds unlikely but this is a strange problem.

[SCain]

RedValk,
When the noise started, did you make any changes or add any accessories to the bike?

[Grumpy]

Several years back I had a similar noise in my interstate, traced it to the oil pump drive chain in the rear of the motor.  Chain and sprockets were ok. But Found a small guard on the chain that the bolts had come out of and let the guard rub on the chain. Sound was much like yours, but not near as loud.  Stethoscope is probably the best way to localize where it is coming from.

[Gabriel]

If you were closer, I would help you figure this out.
Maybe someone closer can help you...

[Tfrank59]

Several years back I had a similar noise in my interstate, traced it to the oil pump drive chain in the rear of the motor.  Chain and sprockets were ok. But Found a small guard on the chain that the bolts had come out of and let the guard rub on the chain. Sound was much like yours, but not near as loud.  Stethoscope is probably the best way to localize where it is coming from.

Given all that's been said and ruled out my money's on this

[Daviddurtschi]

I got my 98 running and now I seem to have a similar noise...just wondering if you've had any luck finding the problem?

[Firefighter]

I can understand you are having difficulty accepting the thinking that the problem must lie at the oil filter area since that is where you feel the vibration the most. I used to work on cars, boats, most anything and found many times that sound/ vibrations can come from anywhere and rattle a component on the other side of whatever. It happens! I would use the stethoscope as others have suggested, also have you listened while you speed the engine up? Might make a difference. The guys have some good ideals and some are probably correct but we don't know and all of us wish we could come help listen.
You can pull plug wires or even plugs and see if anything changes or listen (carefully) at the exhaust tip, see if one side worse than the other. Good Luck, keep us posted.

[SCain]

Bump this back up. Redvalk any status update?

[Attic Rat]

The shaft that runs the scavenge pump is also the shaft that runs through the main oil pump. The is driven from the back of the engine by scavenge pump. It is run by a chain. This chain hooks to the primary driven gear boss which runs off the main shaft. There are needle bearings inside the this gear where it runs on the main shaft. I hope this helps to explain the oil system. You can also go to the work shop manual and see pictures.

[Woodsyv12]

I know this is an old post but was this ever cured as I now have the same issue. It occurred after removing the engine to paint it. Starter motor, alternator were removed during this. Valve clearances done. Demobbed, Engine replaced and appeared to run as before. Changed oil and filter and ran engine all was good.
Bike sat for a month then I ran it and then this very same noise appeared. Its loud when cold and virtually disappears when hot.
Took water pump out and obviously caught all the oil that came out of the case, so it was almost empty. Ran engine (briefly) and there's no noise.
I thought it was the water pump but after stripping pump and finding nothing I replaced the water pump.
I filled with oil, ran engine and noise returned.
Drained oil and very briefly ran engine again.  No noise.
It appears to either oil filter or oil relief valve.
Was this issue solved?

[RedValk]

Sorry, haven't been on here in MANY years. NO, this problem......was NEVER cured/fixed. It STILL DOES IT.....to this day. I've continued to ride the bike.....with that noise....for many years now. Granted, I don't ride many miles anymore. The bike is approaching 130k miles. I just never drive it far away.....lest something catastrophic happen!

BUT....I will say....lately, I've noticed the clutch engages the moment you start letting it out. You have to pull the lever ALL the way in ....unlike years past....and it's hard to find neutral.

So..............clutch going out? Probably. Related to that noise (as some others suggested long ago)....maybe? And this is one of the original 97s.....and I read about issues with clutch springs breaking on them. So....could it be clutch issues....one or a few of those clutch srpings broke....are laying in the bottom of the clutch basket.....and when you start the bike , before oil is flowing good....you hear that horrible rattling noise. Then it warms up, and the noise just about goes away. Could it be the clutch was starting to go bad long ago? Keep in mind, I've ridden less than 3k miles in the last 7 or 8 years.....with my severe back issues.

Anyway, to this day....nothing has been solved and the noise is STILL there! I've offered to sell the bike a couple of times "as is"....for about 1500 bucks. But never got any one interested. Bike still looks great....and is loaded with extras. And i still ride it a couple of times a month without hesitation. I just wouldn't take it as it is on a long trip ....if you know what I mean.   

[Hook#3287]

I read this post from the beginning and I didn't see where you removed the rear engine cover and inspected the clutch.

Maybe I missed it.

That is not a overly difficult job and would be what I would do, if I had this issue.