Use a %$#@! Torque Wrench Rant

[rugguy]

I needed to have my front fork seals and bushings replaced. The ride was getting spongy and was not comfortable riding it like I like to. Pull the forks...routine right? Two hour tops not even working hard. Until I get to the right lower fork pinch bolt. The last shop that did these obviously did't use a torque wrench and tightened this one to around 10,000 ft/lbs. Would not budge. Shot it full of penetrating oil, tapped it with a punch, nothing. Finally put an extender on my hex wrench and felt the inevitable slip. Stripped out the d##n hex head. I have never stripped out a hex head in my life.

So off to the store to get a ninety degree offset drill chuck (because there is not enough room to use a regular drill because of the radiator neck) and a shop-grade ez out kit. NOTE: there has never been, in the history of the world, a kit more inappropriately named kit than an "EZ Out" kit. Ain't nothing easy about it....EVER. Came home, drilled out the bolt and, you guessed it, The ez outs would budge it either.

So now I had to tear pretty mush the entire front of the of the bike apart to get the fork off. Had to take the entire tree off to do it. And if you have done this on an I/S before you know this isn't a twenty minute job. All because some shop monkey was too lazy or cheap to properly torque the pinch bolt into place. Now the shop will have to drill and tap this thing out for me.

So guys if you wrench on your own machine, invest in a good torque wrench and a set of hex sockets so that you can avoid my pain. And if you take it to a shop make sure the "torque to spec".

Thus endeth the lesson....

[The emperor has no clothes]

I feel your pain. And yes, the label EZ Out is false advertising.

[hubcapsc]

Little bolts like that I tighten until "they're tight enough"... little stuff is scary with
a torque wrench...

I have some idea that things like axles can and maybe should be tightened with
a torque wrench... I had a way to hold the guts of final drives from turning so I
could tighten pinion cup nuts with a torque wrench...

-Mike "shade tree..."

[rugguy]

I tighten a lot of things by feel. But not something as critical as a fork pinch bolt. Leave it too loose and you could be in trouble if you hit a bad pothole or have to emergency stop. I darn sure don't want a fork slipping in those circumstances. Even if it probably wouldn't slip I don't want to have to ride and worry. To each his own...

[Jopson]

I feel your pain, been there done that, got the stripped bolts to prove it!
A lot of mechanics I've seen "torque to spec" means nothing! "Is that one dugga dugga or two?!?"
Glad you got it out though

[Valker]

One of the first tools I ever bought was a torque wrench (still have it 50 years later) because my philosophy was evidently "tighten it until it snaps, then back it off a little".

[rugguy]

That snap is a sickening feeling for sure.

[old2soon]

Find the turd that Thinks he are a mechanic and I'll supply the Extremely dull butter knife for the castration.  Have a really nice Craftsman inch pound torque wrench in 3/8" drive that sees some use with me. Now the nuts on the exhaust header bolts I go LIGHTLY snug. Kind of a Feel thingy. I remember my Brother-da prez-and I putting a clutch in my 54 Ford. Last bolt holding the pressure plate to the fly wheel. At times I Still hear that bolt snapping!  But when he put the drill to it she walked straight thru the pressure plate and out.  I truly Despise coming in behind a wrench turner who THINKS he are a mechanic. Been there done that got the knuckle scars in lieu of a T-shirt!  RIDE SAFE.

[da prez]

There is an extractor made  by Roddick. It is a stubby tool that works in a stripped out allen head cap screw. They also make an internal pipe wrench. I have most of them and they are worth the money.
  E-bay or Amazon sells them as well as Mac tools.
  When you try to loosen an allen cap screw and it resists , use a blunt flat punch to give it a sharp , hard rap in the center. The shock will usually loosen them. It is best to replace the bolts if you have to do this. I also use anti-sieze on most of the bolts on the Valk.

                                           da prez

[Bagger John - #3785]

What most of the above said.

There are a lot of folks who decry the use of a torque wrench, but those specs were established for a reason...by engineers whose bread and butter revolves around metal fatigue analysis in both uncontaminated and contaminated (rode hard/put away wet) regimes.

Make sure your fasteners are clean and free of any foreign matter (i.e., dirt and grit) before reassembly. If you're using Anti-Seize on them, remember to derate the torque values by 5% - this owing to the added slipperiness.

Having done this sort of thing professionally (and for myself + friends since those days) I'll say this: Shops get what they pay for in the way of mechanics. Lay the fault for your seized bolt square at the feet of the dealership owner and possibly the service manager, as they're the ones who made the decision to hire Numbnuts.

[da prez]

  Years ago when I sold Mac tools , one M/C shop I stopped at did not allow mechanics to use impact tools. All bolts were wire wheeled and nuts were cleaned if not replaced. They had a strong business and I never heard of a comeback. All the torque wrenches were sent out annually to be tested and certified. ( I use to send mine in also) A shop like this is few and far between.

                               da prez

[jim@98valkyrie.com]

Make sure your fasteners are clean and free of any foreign matter (i.e., dirt and grit) before reassembly. If you're using Anti-Seize on them, remember to derate the torque values by 5% - this owing to the added slipperiness.

John, I've seen here on the boards and by searching for anti-seize related information, that you should reduce the torque by about 25%. You mentioned 5%. Was that a mis typing or is there some other information you can share?
Thanks

[hubcapsc]

I "decry" the use of torque wrenches by shade tree mechanics. Good luck on using them for
your header bolts.

Who on here even has a torque wrench that is both little and accurate and appropriate
for small fragile stuff like header bolts? And if you have one that you think is good for
that, have you removed/replaced your headers a few times using it with good results?

I have an old big beam torque wrench, I trust it on my axle, I'm not man enough to
wring that off... I trust it on my pinion cup nut, I had one that was put on by an
impact wrench WAY too tight. I hate way-too-tight big stuff and busted-off little stuff.

Torque wrenches have their places. Stuff I tighten by hand doesn't have a habit
of coming loose, breaking off or being unbudgeable next time around. Cleaning
and using anti-seize where appropriate is a good thing. Using a torque wrench
on every bolt seems crazy to me.

-Mike "its a motorbike, not the space shuttle"

[Bagger John - #3785]

Make sure your fasteners are clean and free of any foreign matter (i.e., dirt and grit) before reassembly. If you're using Anti-Seize on them, remember to derate the torque values by 5% - this owing to the added slipperiness.

John, I've seen here on the boards and by searching for anti-seize related information, that you should reduce the torque by about 25%. You mentioned 5%. Was that a mis typing or is there some other information you can share?
Thanks

As I recall, 5% is an ASME-derived figure which has been posted in several discussions on this board (as well as a number of others over the years), and I have no idea if the original thread(s) survived in archived form. Type of fastener and type of metal also factor into the calculations.

A quick search 'round the 'Net before I posted this revealed...figures all over the place. AST (makers of Anti-Seize) cite 25% as the derating number, and it varies elsewhere from 10 to a whopping 50 per cent. One some fasteners there's absolutely no way I'd go with the latter value.

FWIW: The only place I use the stuff on my Valkyries is on the spark plugs. Sparingly. OEM TQ figures are 12 ft-lbs, and I tighten mine to 11.5. Calculating a derating percentage, one comes up with 4.16. Given the fact that the torque wrench I use is at the very low end of its range when set to 11.5 ft-lbs, it's probably a safe bet that the actual applied torque is a half pound or so less. And is probably 10% or more lower than Honda's figure.

When torqued to this value, they feel no different than a plug with dry threads does - either on insertion or removal.

I don't think I'd want a plug in a head under just 9 ft-lbs of torque...but it would be interesting to take a junked head and play around with torque values to see exactly where the failure point is with Anti-Seize applied. I strongly suspect most spark plug thread pullouts are due to oxidation bonding of the parts due to galvanic action, coupled with the re-use of plugs which aren't properly cleaned.

[Chrisj CMA]

I "decry" the use of torque wrenches by shade tree mechanics. Good luck on using them for
your header bolts.

Who on here even has a torque wrench that is both little and accurate and appropriate
for small fragile stuff like header bolts? And if you have one that you think is good for
that, have you removed/replaced your headers a few times using it with good results?

I have an old big beam torque wrench, I trust it on my axle, I'm not man enough to
wring that off... I trust it on my pinion cup nut, I had one that was put on by an
impact wrench WAY too tight. I hate way-too-tight big stuff and busted-off little stuff.

Torque wrenches have their places. Stuff I tighten by hand doesn't have a habit a
of coming loose, breaking off or being unbudgeable next time around. Cleaning
and using anti-seize where appropriate is a good thing. Using a torque wrench
on every bolt seems crazy to me.

-Mike "its a motorbike, not the space shuttle"

I'm with you Mike. One needs to have a built in calibration while wrenching. Bigger nut tighter torque. Smaller less, then look at what it's doing and how much force it needs to  endure and then just knowing what is "tight" is very valuable. Last bike week I had to torque the rear axle nut without a torque wrench. Used my calibrated right arm and when I redid everything upon arrival at home the value was VERY close to spec.

[Valker]

I "decry" the use of torque wrenches by shade tree mechanics. Good luck on using them for
your header bolts.

Who on here even has a torque wrench that is both little and accurate and appropriate
for small fragile stuff like header bolts? And if you have one that you think is good for
that, have you removed/replaced your headers a few times using it with good results?

I have an old big beam torque wrench, I trust it on my axle, I'm not man enough to
wring that off... I trust it on my pinion cup nut, I had one that was put on by an
impact wrench WAY too tight. I hate way-too-tight big stuff and busted-off little stuff.

Torque wrenches have their places. Stuff I tighten by hand doesn't have a habit
of coming loose, breaking off or being unbudgeable next time around. Cleaning
and using anti-seize where appropriate is a good thing. Using a torque wrench
on every bolt seems crazy to me.

-Mike "its a motorbike, not the space shuttle"

I have removed and reinstalled my headers many times. I always use a torque wrench set to manual specs. I've never had any issues at all. Mine is a 1/4" torque wrench marked in inch pounds.

[Bagger John - #3785]

I have removed and reinstalled my headers many times. I always use a torque wrench set to manual specs. I've never had any issues at all. Mine is a 1/4" torque wrench marked in inch pounds.

I have something similar.

I also used to have access to a rather pricy 1/4 torque screwdriver (2-100 inch-lbs) which was ideal for doing the header nuts.

[hubcapsc]

I "decry" the use of torque wrenches by shade tree mechanics. Good luck on using them for
your header bolts.

Who on here even has a torque wrench that is both little and accurate and appropriate
for small fragile stuff like header bolts? And if you have one that you think is good for
that, have you removed/replaced your headers a few times using it with good results?

I have an old big beam torque wrench, I trust it on my axle, I'm not man enough to
wring that off... I trust it on my pinion cup nut, I had one that was put on by an
impact wrench WAY too tight. I hate way-too-tight big stuff and busted-off little stuff.

Torque wrenches have their places. Stuff I tighten by hand doesn't have a habit
of coming loose, breaking off or being unbudgeable next time around. Cleaning
and using anti-seize where appropriate is a good thing. Using a torque wrench
on every bolt seems crazy to me.

-Mike "its a motorbike, not the space shuttle"

I have removed and reinstalled my headers many times. I always use a torque wrench set to manual specs. I've never had any issues at all. Mine is a 1/4" torque wrench marked in inch pounds.

That's good to know... bagger john also has access to a pricey little torque screwdriver (never heard of that)
that works for him.

I've removed and reinstalled my headers many times (not lately) without a torque
wrench and never had any issues at all.

My bike came with crappy rusty drilled out pipes, I got some unmolested cheap rusty pipes
for a while, then some decent Interstate pipes for a good price, and finally a pristine set of
STD/Tourer pipes.

-Mike

[Daniel Meyer]

Also, in a case like this one (two bolts together in a pinch clamp), put the other bolt back in and tighten...it relieves pressure on the one remaining...makes it easier to get out.

[Bagger John - #3785]

.. bagger john also has access to a pricey little torque screwdriver (never heard of that)
that works for him.

Used to have.

One of these and its accompanying calibration stands can be traced to NIST standards, and various assorted gubmint contracts require the sort of traceability and repeatability which such a tool provides.


http://www.gotopac.com/asg-64126.html?gclid=CO-e4OrcwtQCFQMPaQodIYcGBA

Nowadays I just use the 'tight-til-snug' method and have never had an issue with breaking a header stud.

[Gryphon Rider]

Also, in a case like this one (two bolts together in a pinch clamp), put the other bolt back in and tighten...it relieves pressure on the one remaining...makes it easier to get out.

That's a tip I'm going to have to store on a shelf in my mind somewhere.  I hope I can find it when I need it. 

[jim@98valkyrie.com]

Also, in a case like this one (two bolts together in a pinch clamp), put the other bolt back in and tighten...it relieves pressure on the one remaining...makes it easier to get out.

Agree in most cases. I think the OP was referring to #10 since he made mention of clearance issues with the radiator neck.
http://www.procaliber.com/oemparts/a/hon/506cb66ef870023420a4183f/steering-stem

I have a set of Allen sockets that I can put a ratchet on to give a bigger bite to and more torque. I had several that were pretty corroded on the  project bike and they really helped a lot. Although, I did come close to stripping a couple. Replaced all the corroded ones with stainless.

[98valk]

I decry clicker style torque wrenches. How may know that they need to be calibrated? most bought at a store do not even have a factory cal sticker.
I stay with beam type in ftlbs and inlbs which can easily be calibrated by bending the moveable beam when needed.  Digital and dial type are also options, I believe they are also to easy Zero Out for home calibration. clicker type has to be sent out for cal.

[bentwrench]

I have rescued a few stripped allen heads by hammering a torx bit of a slightly larger size into the allen head.when your working with really tight allens,torx,12pt.or triple square fastners a little valve lapping compound in the head can give just enough of a traction boost to keep it from rounding out.
One thing I've learned about these fastners is they help me fill my swear jar faster than I like.

[Skinhead]

Also, in a case like this one (two bolts together in a pinch clamp), put the other bolt back in and tighten...it relieves pressure on the one remaining...makes it easier to get out.

+ 1 to what Daniel said.  I was going to post a similar "tip" when I read his.  Mine was to loosen the bolts incrementally at first, until the majority of the clamp load is released, first one, then the other back and forth.  But I like Daniel's suggestion to put the other bolt back in to share the load and loosen the stuck bolt, then loosen them both a little at a time.  Great minds think alike.

[sandy]

I have rescued a few stripped allen heads by hammering a torx bit of a slightly larger size into the allen head.when your working with really tight allens,torx,12pt.or triple square fastners a little valve lapping compound in the head can give just enough of a traction boost to keep it from rounding out.
One thing I've learned about these fastners is they help me fill my swear jar faster than I like.

A trick I recently had to use is to put some aluminum foil tape over the end of the allen socket. It gave just enough tighter fit to get it out. It was an axle pinch bolt that had been over tightened.

[MarkT]

 I strongly suspect most spark plug thread pullouts are due to oxidation bonding of the parts due to galvanic action, coupled with the re-use of plugs which aren't properly cleaned.

I use anti-sieze only in dissimilar-metal threads - like spark plugs in aluminum heads.  Another good spot is anywhere steel bolts screw into aluminum.  Like the alternator mount bolts for instance, which several here have experienced one of them snapping off - including me.  This galvanic corrosion is the reason I'm thinking, that such threads can sieze over time if not protected with anti-sieze.

[Bagger John - #3785]

I use anti-sieze only in dissimilar-metal threads - like spark plugs in aluminum heads.  Another good spot is anywhere steel bolts screw into aluminum.  Like the alternator mount bolts for instance, which several here have experienced one of them snapping off - including me.  This galvanic corrosion is the reason I'm thinking, that such threads can sieze over time if not protected with anti-sieze.

You bring up an interesting point here. If I can help it, the only time either of my Valkyries see water is on wash day - but a bit of Anti-Seize on those threads would be added insurance.

This is off-topic of the subject thread but germane to the MarkT experience: My '99 Tourer helped me join the Deerslayer Club a couple of weeks ago. Luckily, the only bike damage was a broken left 4050 Ergo Tour Peg and arm but whacking the critter at freeway speeds certainly did a number on it.

[98valk]

I use anti-sieze only in dissimilar-metal threads - like spark plugs in aluminum heads.  Another good spot is anywhere steel bolts screw into aluminum.  Like the alternator mount bolts for instance, which several here have experienced one of them snapping off - including me.  This galvanic corrosion is the reason I'm thinking, that such threads can sieze over time if not protected with anti-sieze.

You bring up an interesting point here. If I can help it, the only time either of my Valkyries see water is on wash day - but a bit of Anti-Seize on those threads would be added insurance.

This is off-topic of the subject thread but germane to the MarkT experience: My '99 Tourer helped me join the Deerslayer Club a couple of weeks ago. Luckily, the only bike damage was a broken left 4050 Ergo Tour Peg and arm but whacking the critter at freeway speeds certainly did a number on it.

humidity in the air causes corrosion. Every thing is decaying/rusting/corroding back to where it came and that is the earth. paint/coatings etc., just slow it down, sometimes stop it whereas we don't notice with out senses.

[Bagger John - #3785]

I use anti-sieze only in dissimilar-metal threads - like spark plugs in aluminum heads.  Another good spot is anywhere steel bolts screw into aluminum.  Like the alternator mount bolts for instance, which several here have experienced one of them snapping off - including me.  This galvanic corrosion is the reason I'm thinking, that such threads can sieze over time if not protected with anti-sieze.

You bring up an interesting point here. If I can help it, the only time either of my Valkyries see water is on wash day - but a bit of Anti-Seize on those threads would be added insurance.

This is off-topic of the subject thread but germane to the MarkT experience: My '99 Tourer helped me join the Deerslayer Club a couple of weeks ago. Luckily, the only bike damage was a broken left 4050 Ergo Tour Peg and arm but whacking the critter at freeway speeds certainly did a number on it.

humidity in the air causes corrosion. Every thing is decaying/rusting/corroding back to where it came and that is the earth. paint/coatings etc., just slow it down, sometimes stop it whereas we don't notice with out senses.

Some areas of the country are less prone to it than others. If I lived on one of the coasts I'd be tempted to use the stuff on every fastener on the bike which doesn't require a threadlocker.

[98valk]

I use anti-sieze only in dissimilar-metal threads - like spark plugs in aluminum heads.  Another good spot is anywhere steel bolts screw into aluminum.  Like the alternator mount bolts for instance, which several here have experienced one of them snapping off - including me.  This galvanic corrosion is the reason I'm thinking, that such threads can sieze over time if not protected with anti-sieze.

You bring up an interesting point here. If I can help it, the only time either of my Valkyries see water is on wash day - but a bit of Anti-Seize on those threads would be added insurance.

This is off-topic of the subject thread but germane to the MarkT experience: My '99 Tourer helped me join the Deerslayer Club a couple of weeks ago. Luckily, the only bike damage was a broken left 4050 Ergo Tour Peg and arm but whacking the critter at freeway speeds certainly did a number on it.

humidity in the air causes corrosion. Every thing is decaying/rusting/corroding back to where it came and that is the earth. paint/coatings etc., just slow it down, sometimes stop it whereas we don't notice with out senses.

Some areas of the country are less prone to it than others. If I lived on one of the coasts I'd be tempted to use the stuff on every fastener on the bike which doesn't require a threadlocker.

well don't know where u live, but humidity is everywhere, zero humidity does not exist on this planet.

In the United States the most humid cities, strictly in terms of relative humidity, are Forks and Olympia, Washington.[18] This fact may come as a surprise to many, as the climate in this region rarely exhibits the discomfort usually associated with high humidity. This is because high dew points play a more significant role than relative humidity in discomfort, and so the air in these western cities usually does not feel "humid" as a result. In general, dew points are much lower in the Western U.S. than those in the Eastern U.S.

The highest dew points in the US are found in coastal Florida and Texas. When comparing Key West and Houston, two of the most humid cities from those states, coastal Florida seems to have the higher dew points on average. However, Houston lacks the coastal breeze present in Key West, and, as a much larger city, it suffers from the urban heat island effect.[19] A dew point of 88 °F (31 °C) was recorded in Moorhead Minnesota on July 19, 2011, with a heat index of 133.5, although dew points over 80 °F (27 °C) are rare there.[20]
The US city with the lowest annual humidity is Las Vegas, Nevada, averaging 39% for a high and 21% as a low.[21] Appleton, Wisconsin registered a dew point of 90 degrees F on 13 July 1995 with an air temperature of 104 degrees resulting in a heat index of 149 degrees; this record has apparently held and in fact the highest dew point measured in the country bounced amongst or was tied by locations in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Iowa during the preceding 70 years or more with locations in northern Illinois also coming close. Dew points of 95 degrees are found on the Red Sea coast of Saudi Arabia at certain times.

[Paladin528]

There is a better chance you are dealing with corrosion and not overtorque. Over torquing by the amount you are describing would likely have snapped the pinch bolt since the torque requirements for them is relatively low.  Corrosion however will "weld" a bolt in place pretty good.  I use anti seize on most things when I am doing maintenance.

[Houdini]

I use anti seize on most things when I am doing maintenance.

+1

I own three torque wrenches, 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2, that rarely see the light of day.  I will not use one for a fork bolt or a header bolt or almost any other bolt outside of the engine.  I do use anti-seize on almost all bolts and have never had one that I put in strip or break.

YMMV, I have well over 40 years of torquing experience under my belt.

[rugguy]

I have learned a valuable lesson from this problem and the informed posts on this thread. I am certain now that my problem was not caused by over-torqueing but by corrosion. I should have known that from a problem I had when attempting to remove a lower drive from an I/O motor of mine a few years ago. The bolts were essentially welded in place by corrosion. In the future I will approach every stuck bolt with the idea that it is corrosion and not just being too tight (two broken EZ Outs should have been my fifth and sixth clues). Thanks for all that contributed.