Head Gasket Question

[moreira72]

I have a 1999 Interstate with 52k miles, desmogged, cobras 6x6, K&N filter. So bike has been smoking a bit. I removed exhaust to do truck stacks and found a couple of the exhaust ports saturated with oil. I suspect bad valve seals. So I was gonna order new seals and head gaskets.

My question is there are two head gaskets available from Honda. A standard gasket for $25 each, and a (0.75/1.00) for $72 each. What is a 0.75/1.00? is that the thickness? and do I really need it, or is the standard good enough? Don't want to spend an extra $100 bucks on head gaskets if I don't need them. Any input would be appreciated.

[da prez]

Valve guides can be changed with out pulling the heads.

                            da prez

[gordonv]

Oil in the port. I'm thinking ex-hydro lock with damage.

How long have you had this bike?

Start with a compression test. Work from there.

[indybobm]

I'm pretty that the valve guide seals can be replaced without moving the heads. The second listing for a head gasket, (0.75/1.00) might be for an overbore/engine rebuild.

[moreira72]

Valve guides can be changed with out pulling the heads.

                            da prez

How would I remove the keepers and springs wouthout holding the back of the valve. And don’t you have to remove the valves to tap in the new guides? If it could be done, I would love to do it without removing the heads.

[moreira72]

Oil in the port. I'm thinking ex-hydro lock with damage.

How long have you had this bike?

Start with a compression test. Work from there.

Compression is in spec. Bike runs great aside from a little smoke. Engine is quiet no valve noise. 35-37 mpg.

[RonW]

And don’t you have to remove the valves to tap in the new guides?

new guides, or new seals??

[moreira72]

And don’t you have to remove the valves to tap in the new guides?

new guides, or new seals??

just seals, but if I could do guides without removing heads I would replace them as well

[RonW]

if you do end up removing the heads, remember to get 2 o-rings for the water pipes that plug into the heads. I forgot those and had to special order them putting the entire project on hold, didn't want to risk re-using the old o-rings. The shipping cost was more than the actual items. They're listed on the water pipe Oem parts webpage. Not the cylinder head page.

[moreira72]

if you do end up removing the heads, remember to get 2 o-rings for the water pipes that plug into the heads. I forgot those and had to special order them putting the entire project on hold, didn't want to risk re-using the old o-rings. The shipping cost was more than the actual items. They're listed on the water pipe Oem parts webpage. Not the cylinder head page.

thanks, yes I have those on my order list along with new timing belts. did you use the standard head gaskets? $25 each or so

[RonW]

I bought the standard gasket. The old gasket was pristine and probably could have been re-used. It practically fell off. No residue to scrape off either. There's a 6mm bolt that belongs on the bottom of the cylinder head which the manual doesn't state a torque value for. You might gauge the exiting torque on the 6mm bolt using an inch-pound torque wrench starting at 6 ft-lbs (72 in-lbs) and working up until the bolt turns. Both left and right 6mm bolts came out okay, but one of them gave me trouble reinstalling it. I felt the head of the 6mm bolt spin independently of the bolt shaft, so I immediately started reversing out the bolt. Found that the shaft of the bolt was hanging on by a thread. Dunno if they're torque-to-yield bolts and aren't suppose to be used twice or was just an anomaly.

[moreira72]

I bought the standard gasket. The old gasket was pristine and probably could have been re-used. It practically fell off. No residue to scrape off either. There's a 6mm bolt that belongs on the bottom of the cylinder head which the manual doesn't state a torque value for. You might gauge the exiting torque on the 6mm bolt using an inch-pound torque wrench starting at 6 ft-lbs (72 in-lbs) and working up until the bolt turns. Both left and right 6mm bolts came out okay, but one of them gave me trouble reinstalling it. I felt the head of the 6mm bolt spin independently of the bolt shaft, so I immediately started reversing out the bolt. Found that the shaft of the bolt was hanging on by a thread. Dunno if they're torque-to-yield bolts and aren't suppose to be used twice or was just an anomaly.

Thanks, gonna order all the parts I need tomorrow.

[Pete]

Been a while since I did a valve guide replacement.
Years ago the guides were reamed to valve stem size after install.
So heads came off and valves came out for guides.

Seals were always done with head on unless you were doing both, guides and seals.

[Itinifni]

Seals can be replaced without removing the heads is you have the tools, you'd need:

1) A valve keeper removal tool that doesn't need access to the valve face. I have a magnetic tool that works very well but I don't know if there would be enough clearance on the Valkyrie head.

2) A compression gauge with a quick disconnect hose and the correct end to thread into the Valkyrie plug bore.

3) A regulated air supply

4) A seal driver, any time I have not had a dedicated seal driver I've been able to find a 3/8" drive deep socket to install the seal without damage.

Pull all the plugs and set the cylinder you'll be working on to TDC (important!).
Set the regulator on your air line to 10-15 PSI.
Thread the compression gauge hose into the bore and connect your air hose to the other end (you'll need to have the correct quick disconnect on your air line).
If you're not sure if you're on TDC crank the air pressure to 40 PSI or so, if you're off dead center the crank will spin 180* with no harm done.
If you are on TDC there'll be no crank movement.
You can now use the tool to remove the keepers, retainer, spring and seal, drive the new one on, and reassemble. The air pressure will hold the valve in place.
You can now move onto the other valve in that cylinder and if you have the cams out of both heads at the same time you can also do both valves on the companion cylinder without re-setting the crank.

Good luck!

[Attic Rat]

USE THE STANDARD HEAD GASKETS AND ORDER ALL 4 WATER PIPE O RINGS

[John Schmidt]

I just replaced all the valve stem seals on my 1200 Wing, just involved removing the cam hold down part to gain access to the valve springs. The Valkyrie has basically the same thing, just larger and more robust. Then used a valve spring compressor as in the pic below except I bought two and changed the arms so the arms were the same length. As for using air to hold the valves in place, not necessary. Just get maybe 30" of rope small enough to go into the spark plug hole, then roll the motor over by hand using a wrench on the crankshaft bolt. It will compress the rope against the valves and they don't move. That lets you do both intake and exhaust before doing the next cylinder. Pull the rope out and do the cylinder next to it, etc. I would order new cam oil seals to go on the front of the cam just in case you should disturb it, thereby causing a leak into the timing belt area ruining the belts. You might devise a method of holding the cam in place when you remove the hold-down section, that pretty much guarantees you won't disturb the front oil seal. The heads don't need to be removed and I never needed to use any type of insertion tool to place the new seals on the guides. Just oil up the seals and guides and with your fingers just press them on with a little twisting motion....they'll slip right on. As for a tool to remove the keepers(collets), just pick up a small magnet on an extendable rod, mine is about 1/4" wide and the rod about 1' long extended. It picks up the keepers quite easily.

A little trick to put the keepers back in; by pressing the compressed spring away from the keeper area(down toward the head) the "top" will open up a bit so you can slip the first one in place. Then once it's in place, pull the spring toward you so there's a little pressure on the first keeper, causing it to seat and hold in place. At this time you should be able to turn the compressor/spring still holding slight pressure against the keeper. Turn it enough so the first keeper is now away from the "top" position and you can release the pressure enough to insert the second keeper. Then pull the spring toward you again and unscrew the compressor. Once it's off, use a small mallet to tap on the end of the valve to help seat the keepers completely and you're done.

In years past on car engines I've even removed the keepers without a spring compressor. I stuck a strong narrow magnet inside the proper size socket, placed the socket on the spring washer and a couple good whacks with a mallet caused the spring to compress enough to allow the magnet to pull the keepers up into the socket. Once the spring was off, I'd then use a compressor to reinstall the springs and keepers once the seals were in place.

Forgot to add the picture of the spring compressor used to change seals without removing the heads.

[moreira72]

I just replaced all the valve stem seals on my 1200 Wing, just involved removing the cam hold down part to gain access to the valve springs. The Valkyrie has basically the same thing, just larger and more robust. Then used a valve spring compressor as in the pic below except I bought two and changed the arms so the arms were the same length. As for using air to hold the valves in place, not necessary. Just get maybe 30" of rope small enough to go into the spark plug hole, then roll the motor over by hand using a wrench on the crankshaft bolt. It will compress the rope against the valves and they don't move. That lets you do both intake and exhaust before doing the next cylinder. Pull the rope out and do the cylinder next to it, etc. I would order new cam oil seals to go on the front of the cam just in case you should disturb it, thereby causing a leak into the timing belt area ruining the belts. You might devise a method of holding the cam in place when you remove the hold-down section, that pretty much guarantees you won't disturb the front oil seal. The heads don't need to be removed and I never needed to use any type of insertion tool to place the new seals on the guides. Just oil up the seals and guides and with your fingers just press them on with a little twisting motion....they'll slip right on. As for a tool to remove the keepers(collets), just pick up a small magnet on an extendable rod, mine is about 1/4" wide and the rod about 1' long extended. It picks up the keepers quite easily.

A little trick to put the keepers back in; by pressing the compressed spring away from the keeper area(down toward the head) the "top" will open up a bit so you can slip the first one in place. Then once it's in place, pull the spring toward you so there's a little pressure on the first keeper, causing it to seat and hold in place. At this time you should be able to turn the compressor/spring still holding slight pressure against the keeper. Turn it enough so the first keeper is now away from the "top" position and you can release the pressure enough to insert the second keeper. Then pull the spring toward you again and unscrew the compressor. Once it's off, use a small mallet to tap on the end of the valve to help seat the keepers completely and you're done.

In years past on car engines I've even removed the keepers without a spring compressor. I stuck a strong narrow magnet inside the proper size socket, placed the socket on the spring washer and a couple good whacks with a mallet caused the spring to compress enough to allow the magnet to pull the keepers up into the socket. Once the spring was off, I'd then use a compressor to reinstall the springs and keepers once the seals were in place.

Forgot to add the picture of the spring compressor used to change seals without removing the heads.

Thanks John for your write-up. I ordered the spring compressor and will replace the seals sometime next week when all the parts come in. I’ll post a follow up and some pics.

[John Schmidt]

Those compressors are always available at your local auto parts store. 

If you use the rope method to hold the valves in place, be sure to leave a foot or so hanging out so you can grab it to pull the rope out when done. When I was in the USAF I had a neighbor kid wanting help to change valve seals, so I advised him of the rope method....was on an old 6-cyl. Chevy. I didn't bother to tell him about leaving some hanging out so guess what happened there! Took us a while but were finally able to fish it out.

[da prez]

  John , here I thought I knew everything and you teach me something new . Never knew of the rope method. 

                                                       da prez

[John Schmidt]

 John , here I thought I knew everything and you teach me something new . Never knew of the rope method.  

                                                       da prez

Ross, now you can tell the youngsters you learned about it from some old fart back when. They don't need to know how recent "back when" was.