Shotgun deadlier than an AR(scary black gun)

[Gavin_Sons]

https://youtu.be/GP94gIX1QLs

But an Ar can hold 30 rounds. Ok that's 30 projectiles, Buckshot has lets say 8 projectiles per shell. the gun will hold 5 so there is 40 projectiles fired in less than 3 seconds.

[Motodad71]

"Deadlier" is very much up for debate, but yes a shotgun is much more devastating at close range than literally any other "legal" firearms. But for creating mass casualties, there is no replacement for capacity regardless of the caliber used. The media, liberal politicians, and liberals in general.....are ALL focused on the scary black rifles, yet lets say "twin Glock 17's" both with 17 round mags and a loaded mag in each back pocket.....would arguably cause just as much chaos. The facts of these school shootings which need to be addressed over anything else, is HOW are these shootings happening, HOW are the shooters just walking into the schools fully armed, and HOW/WHY were not leads and warning fully vetted?

[northernvalk]

I always love click bait type headlines.....Shotgun deadlier than an AR**

*- At close range
*- with cartridge used in test

[Gavin_Sons]

I always love click bait type headlines.....Shotgun deadlier than an AR**

*- At close range
*- with cartridge used in test

isn't every school shooting close range?

[Gavin_Sons]

i think shotguns would be even more deadly from 25-40 yards. Gives the shot a chance to seperate and create a bigger area, you could easily take out 3 or 4 people in one shot. But i know, i'll never convince the "assault rifle" haters of this.   I did shoot about 150 rounds of 300 black out yesterday. It was a blast.

[Patrick]

The facts of these school shootings which need to be addressed over anything else, is HOW are these shootings happening, HOW are the shooters just walking into the schools fully armed, and HOW/WHY were not leads and warning fully vetted?
end quote




Yep, by my thinking thats right. But, I know many that don't think way. All some see is the banning of those scary black guns and when asked just how that will eliminate the issue they don't have a valid answer.

[Oss]

Fred Rogers (no relation as far as I know) was dead right

Our society has failed, miserably in creating healthy programming for children

Instead we have glorification of violence and killing,  a welfare society that encourages  households without fathers, a total lack of preventative mental health treatement and post diagnosis treatment and a criminal justice system impotent to react before a disaster

The miracle is there are not MORE of these tragedies whether by gun or otherwise

here is the famous link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKy7ljRr0AA

[old2soon]

The facts of these school shootings which need to be addressed over anything else, is HOW are these shootings happening, HOW are the shooters just walking into the schools fully armed, and HOW/WHY were not leads and warning fully vetted?
end quote




Yep, by my thinking thats right. But, I know many that don't think way. All some see is the banning of those scary black guns and when asked just how that will eliminate the issue they don't have a valid answer.

                       I M H O-knee jerk actions/reactions are the fuel which makes some folks go. Let's just jump to conclusions and see where it takes us. "they" don't need no steenking Facts!  I know here where I live they-School-has C C T V and you have to be buzzed in the main door and we have a L E O in the building while School is in session and a couple of our Educators ARE armed. Is our school 100% safe? NO! But I believe our children here are better protected than some of these last couple of School shootings I've read about. While I no longer have a child in school here I see some of them pass my house in the A M and again in the P M. And even here in Missouri there is a large contingent of Teachers and Parents that do NOT want to have the responsbility of firearms in School. RIDE SAFE.

[northernvalk]

I always love click bait type headlines.....Shotgun deadlier than an AR**

*- At close range
*- with cartridge used in test

isn't every school shooting close range?

Yes, you are correct. However, even a "large" capacity shotgun carries 8-10 rounds MAX ( not including the military use with a drum mag) and take a long time to reload....So, over the period of 2 minutes, i can guarantee you could neutralize WAY more targets with an AR vs a semi shot gun. But who really cares about putting things in context right......?

[Jess from VA]

I always love click bait type headlines.....Shotgun deadlier than an AR**

*- At close range
*- with cartridge used in test

isn't every school shooting close range?

Yes, you are correct. However, even a "large" capacity shotgun carries 8-10 rounds MAX ( not including the military use with a drum mag) and take a long time to reload....So, over the period of 2 minutes, i can guarantee you could neutralize WAY more targets with an AR vs a semi shot gun. But who really cares about putting things in context right......?

You nailed it Northern.  The shotgun would be more deadly for close in work, but reloading is more time consuming.  There are a few mag fed shotguns, but none are 30 rd standard.  Ammo is much heavier too.

They could also wire up 30 lbs of TNT to their bodies, but these narcissistic pond scum apparently want open casket funerals.   

[¿spoom]

I always love click bait type headlines.....Shotgun deadlier than an AR**

*- At close range
*- with cartridge used in test

isn't every school shooting close range?

Yes, you are correct. However, even a "large" capacity shotgun carries 8-10 rounds MAX ( not including the military use with a drum mag) and take a long time to reload....So, over the period of 2 minutes, i can guarantee you could neutralize WAY more targets with an AR vs a semi shot gun. But who really cares about putting things in context right......?

maybe, how about a nice 12ga. Akdal 1919 w/10 round box magazines that can be changed as fast as an AR's? With 00 or 000 buckshot and a careful attention to what Ted Nugent was trying to explain, shooting in the proximity of these shootings, perhaps a difference without a distinction?

[Gavin_Sons]

My point is you get 10 more projectiles in 5 rounds of 00 buck than in a 30 rounds AR magazine. I still stand by that I believe a shotgun can cause more damage than an AR.

[Serk]

My point is you get 10 more projectiles in 5 rounds of 00 buck than in a 30 rounds AR magazine. I still stand by that I believe a shotgun can cause more damage than an AR.

Don't worry, they wanna ban those too...

[Bighead]

Go with Bidens standard answer .......buy a shotgun!      Dumbasses making laws have zero clue.....many rifles out there that will do more damage than an AR  but they arent black and scary looking.

[phideux]

My point is you get 10 more projectiles in 5 rounds of 00 buck than in a 30 rounds AR magazine. I still stand by that I believe a shotgun can cause more damage than an AR.

That is true to a point. But the size of 00 buck is just a hair under 9mm and weighs about 50grains. It is a round ball, not aerodynamically streamlined and coming out of the barrel at about 1400fps. It is gonna bleed off it's speed and energy very quickly. Plus unlike what alot of folks believe, buckshot does not spread that wide. Most buckshot is gonna hold a pattern about the size of a softball at about 25yds.You are not gonna blindly fire your shotgun down your hallway and take out 5 attackers. At self defense distances it is actually fairly easy to miss someone with buckshot. outside of self defense distance buckshot looses energy too fast to take out a crowd.
A typical AR-15 round is 55grains, aerodynamic, spin stabilized, very accurate and comes out of the barrel at a hair over 3000fps. It is accurate out to 300yds and beyond and at that range that little bullet still packs a punch. A buckshot pellet at 300yds is harmless, if it hits you. at 300yds that little 5.56mm bullet is still traveling at about 2100fps and still carries almost 600ft/lbs of energy. That fast little bullet at that velocity does most of it's damage due to the cavitation injury around the wound, it also fragments easily on impact creating many wound channels. I have seen 5.56mm wounds before. Nasty.
So, within 25yds, sure go with a shotgun if you want, but you will still have to aim, a round of buckshot is not gonna fill up your hallway like the myths say. For in house defense, I like either a handgun or my little shorty, 7.5", AR.

[Motodad71]

My point is you get 10 more projectiles in 5 rounds of 00 buck than in a 30 rounds AR magazine. I still stand by that I believe a shotgun can cause more damage than an AR.

That is true to a point. But the size of 00 buck is just a hair under 9mm and weighs about 50grains. It is a round ball, not aerodynamically streamlined and coming out of the barrel at about 1400fps. It is gonna bleed off it's speed and energy very quickly. Plus unlike what alot of folks believe, buckshot does not spread that wide. Most buckshot is gonna hold a pattern about the size of a softball at about 25yds.You are not gonna blindly fire your shotgun down your hallway and take out 5 attackers. At self defense distances it is actually fairly easy to miss someone with buckshot. outside of self defense distance buckshot looses energy too fast to take out a crowd.
A typical AR-15 round is 55grains, aerodynamic, spin stabilized, very accurate and comes out of the barrel at a hair over 3000fps. It is accurate out to 300yds and beyond and at that range that little bullet still packs a punch. A buckshot pellet at 300yds is harmless, if it hits you. at 300yds that little 5.56mm bullet is still traveling at about 2100fps and still carries almost 600ft/lbs of energy. That fast little bullet at that velocity does most of it's damage due to the cavitation injury around the wound, it also fragments easily on impact creating many wound channels. I have seen 5.56mm wounds before. Nasty.
So, within 25yds, sure go with a shotgun if you want, but you will still have to aim, a round of buckshot is not gonna fill up your hallway like the myths say. For in house defense, I like either a handgun or my little shorty, 7.5", AR.

Pretty much agree with all you just said, I said similar without saying quite all that you did. 

[Jess from VA]

One other thing. 

If there are 10 guys charging you, I'll take the shotgun.

To shoot up a bunch of people cowering and running from you, a rifle is more efficient.

Ballistics are always interesting, but don't cover everything.

[MarkT]

I can't imagine anyone - a perp that is, not a combat soldier/grunt - charging when they know there's a 12 ga close and aimed at them.  So it's ONE of my defense arms.  I agree on the efficacy of pistols and AR's however, particularly when they have a tactical light and laser on them.  Of course I need to get those replaced one of these days but until I do maybe the Henry .45-70 lever and the shotty and the magnum revolvers will have to do.  They all would be nasty from the receiver's end.  Took the Weatherby bolt 300 win mag to the range - guaranteed 1 MOA so I was a bit disappointed I couldn't get better then 2.  I think it's a parallax problem - the Leupold that came on it has no parallax adjustment and the aim point was clearly moving depending on my head position.  Couldn't get a really good cheek weld using the Lead Sled.  I burned up 40 rounds sighting it in, allowing cooling time as needed.  Gonna have to put a better scope with parallax dial on it.  Might go to a Nikon BDC which I've been happy with them in .223 & .308 calibers - get the one set up for your cartridge and just turn the elevation dial and aim dead-on out to 800 yds.  On a happier note a .223 rifle shot under 1 MOA today.  First time fired after building it - floated bull barrel, Geissle trigger, Leupold scope, Harris bipod.  Didn't take the .308 competition rifle I built, had enough to do.  Hope it does as well or better than the .223.  It's set up same as the .223 today but with better furniture.  Hoping it will do sub-1 MOA.  Thinking of competing if it does; the gun club is getting into hi-power long ranch matches this year.

[¿spoom]

My point is you get 10 more projectiles in 5 rounds of 00 buck than in a 30 rounds AR magazine. I still stand by that I believe a shotgun can cause more damage than an AR.

That is true to a point. But the size of 00 buck is just a hair under 9mm and weighs about 50grains. It is a round ball, not aerodynamically streamlined and coming out of the barrel at about 1400fps. It is gonna bleed off it's speed and energy very quickly. Plus unlike what alot of folks believe, buckshot does not spread that wide. Most buckshot is gonna hold a pattern about the size of a softball at about 25yds.You are not gonna blindly fire your shotgun down your hallway and take out 5 attackers. At self defense distances it is actually fairly easy to miss someone with buckshot. outside of self defense distance buckshot looses energy too fast to take out a crowd.
A typical AR-15 round is 55grains, aerodynamic, spin stabilized, very accurate and comes out of the barrel at a hair over 3000fps. It is accurate out to 300yds and beyond and at that range that little bullet still packs a punch. A buckshot pellet at 300yds is harmless, if it hits you. at 300yds that little 5.56mm bullet is still traveling at about 2100fps and still carries almost 600ft/lbs of energy. That fast little bullet at that velocity does most of it's damage due to the cavitation injury around the wound, it also fragments easily on impact creating many wound channels. I have seen 5.56mm wounds before. Nasty.
So, within 25yds, sure go with a shotgun if you want, but you will still have to aim, a round of buckshot is not gonna fill up your hallway like the myths say. For in house defense, I like either a handgun or my little shorty, 7.5", AR.

No argument with your overall stats, just the application. The Vegas shooting would not have been to same with the shooter using shotguns, but how many classrooms and playgrounds are 300 yards? Hallways, classrooms, Senate softball teams practicing, etc. are very different from a rifle range, and pointing becomes a better description than aiming.

[G-Man]

The facts of these school shootings which need to be addressed over anything else, is HOW are these shootings happening, HOW are the shooters just walking into the schools fully armed, and HOW/WHY were not leads and warning fully vetted?

This is what I keep asking.  Guns aren't going away and neither are the people who will use them to kill other people. 

SO, WHY ARE WE NOT PROTECTING OUR KIDS? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Why is it harder to get into airports, courthouses, and Yankee Stadium than our schools?  Why isn't there an armed squad in all the schools (size of school dictates size of squad)? 

And then......... who took the 911 call from the kid?  What did this person do with this information?  What do the SOPs say to do when you get a call from a kid begging for help?  Were the SOPs followed?  Is there a link between the 911 system and the DO NOT (fill in the blank) list?   Especially the DO NOT BUY GUN list and how many 911 calls to the home and for help does it take to get on that list?  If there is no link, WHY?

Too many questions and too many people messed up so there will never be an real investigation.  They're not even investigating why police officers didn't go in any longer.  So we'll just blame guns and the NRA.   

[threevalks]

           I'm going with Gavin and Uncle Ted on this one. If I was sitting in a class room and a nut came in shooting randomly, and moving on. I would rather be shot with an AR than a 12 gauge, I feel I would have a better chance of survival.
          Until the boat disaster I owned and shot both.

[northernvalk]

I think all of us "gun" guys fully understand that a shotgun is more deadly at close range with the correct shot, and based on equal shots taken....But that is a lot of * or If's....I think the general statement was click bait, rifles offer a larger kill range per shot and WAY more shots per minute.....

[Willow]

I think all of us "gun" guys fully understand that a shotgun is more deadly at close range with the correct shot, and based on equal shots taken....But that is a lot of * or If's....I think the general statement was click bait, rifles offer a larger kill range per shot and WAY more shots per minute.....

I'm sure the O P was in reference to the efforts to eliminate "assault rifles" to protect against more "school shootings".

Deadlier does depend entirely upon range, situation, skill and intent.  Virtually all the school shootings of which I'm aware would have certainly been more deadly more quickly with 000 shotgun and almost none involved "assault rifles". Of course the Vegas shooting at the school concert is an exception.   

[Motodad71]

           I'm going with Gavin and Uncle Ted on this one. If I was sitting in a class room and a nut came in shooting randomly, and moving on. I would rather be shot with an AR than a 12 gauge, I feel I would have a better chance of survival.
          Until the boat disaster I owned and shot both.

Depends on the shotgun load, anything less than a slug or 00 buck I'll take the shotgun blast. An AR15 is a devastating cavitation round, big heavy slow bullets don't always cause the most damage internally. The 5.56 round is extremely lethal, it is a true man killer. The .9mm round is also another cavitation round and high velocity, and todays hollow points are devastating. So you have ultra high capacity with a round capable of inflicting serious internal injuries......AKA bleeding right out. Imagine the carnage of lets says a Glock 18 being sprayed around in a crowd, that's 30 round magazine capable and those mags are easy to carry.

[rainman]

Go with Bidens standard answer .......buy a shotgun!      Dumbasses making laws have zero clue.....many rifles out there that will do more damage than an AR  but they arent black and scary looking.

if that is the reason they want band ar 15 cause the black and scary looking the answer is simple make them pink and pretty that way only real men will by them

[Serk]

Go with Bidens standard answer .......buy a shotgun!      Dumbasses making laws have zero clue.....many rifles out there that will do more damage than an AR  but they arent black and scary looking.

if that is the reason they want band ar 15 cause the black and scary looking the answer is simple make them pink and pretty that way only real men will by them

[Jess from VA]

I like some pink things.  Firearms is not one of them.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I like some pink things.  Firearms is not one of them.

I'm with you buddy. (On both)

[Pete]

For the record:
Shotguns are available with 5,6,7,8,9,10,15,16,25 rounds on board without reloading.
Some magazine and some tube fed.

Spread patterns depending on barrel can be from 3 inches to 9+ inches at 10 yards.
Speciality barrels are available with wider spreads and speciality spreading type shells are also available.

Speed loaders are available for tube fed shotguns that load 5+ shells at a time with one push.

[Bighead]

For the record:
Shotguns are available with 5,6,7,8,9,10,15,16,25 rounds on board without reloading.
Some magazine and some tube fed.

Spread patterns depending on barrel can be from 3 inches to 9+ inches at 10 yards.
Speciality barrels are available with wider spreads and speciality spreading type shells are also available.

Speed loaders are available for tube fed shotguns that load 5+ shells at a time with one push.

No one wants to hear the facts

[Gavin_Sons]

For the record:
Shotguns are available with 5,6,7,8,9,10,15,16,25 rounds on board without reloading.
Some magazine and some tube fed.

Spread patterns depending on barrel can be from 3 inches to 9+ inches at 10 yards.
Speciality barrels are available with wider spreads and speciality spreading type shells are also available.

Speed loaders are available for tube fed shotguns that load 5+ shells at a time with one push.

but it is not a black scary rifle that shoots a single projectile at 3000 fps. I would take my chances with a 223 round any day before a 00 buck shotgun shell. 

[Gavin_Sons]

oh and i think an AR as a home defense gun is very stupid and negligent on the homeowners part. You must like shooting clear through walls and killing a family member in your home or a neighbor. Shotgun or hand gun is much safer inside a home except for the person you are pointing it at.

[0leman]

Suppose a individual buys two 12 gauge shotguns, make barrels as short as can be done, loads them with double 00 loads, put straps on them so than can be carried under a coat.   the individual would be able to empty both guns rather quickly in a crowed hallway.  Lots of dead or at least wounded folks. 

As I understand the shorter barrels with less restriction would cause the shot patter to expand in a shorter distant, right???

Nothing in any of the proposed gun legislation would stop this individual.

[Motodad71]

oh and i think an AR as a home defense gun is very stupid and negligent on the homeowners part. You must like shooting clear through walls and killing a family member in your home or a neighbor. Shotgun or hand gun is much safer inside a home except for the person you are pointing it at.

Meh not at all, as a .9mm or .357 would do the same damn thing. No doubt a shotgun is ideal for that in many situations, but I wouldn't hesitate to light somebody with my locked and loaded AR either. I am extremely aware of all the shotgun options and different loads out there, but how many people looking to inflict harm on others typically go the extra mile and pay the funds for specialty firearms? A "stock" AR even with 10 round magazines IMHO is much worse than a stock configured shotgun regardless of shells used, round lethality in high volume is much worse.....now some of the home defense and tactical shotguns out there is a whole other story. 

[Gavin_Sons]

oh and i think an AR as a home defense gun is very stupid and negligent on the homeowners part. You must like shooting clear through walls and killing a family member in your home or a neighbor. Shotgun or hand gun is much safer inside a home except for the person you are pointing it at.

Meh not at all, as a .9mm or .357 would do the same damn thing. No doubt a shotgun is ideal for that in many situations, but I wouldn't hesitate to light somebody with my locked and loaded AR either. I am extremely aware of all the shotgun options and different loads out there, but how many people looking to inflict harm on others typically go the extra mile and pay the funds for specialty firearms? A "stock" AR even with 10 round magazines IMHO is much worse than a stock configured shotgun regardless of shells used, round lethality in high volume is much worse.....now some of the home defense and tactical shotguns out there is a whole other story. 

9mm will do the same thing? A round traveling at just over 1000 fps? Really? Compared to a round traveling 3000 fps?

[Motodad71]

oh and i think an AR as a home defense gun is very stupid and negligent on the homeowners part. You must like shooting clear through walls and killing a family member in your home or a neighbor. Shotgun or hand gun is much safer inside a home except for the person you are pointing it at.

Meh not at all, as a .9mm or .357 would do the same damn thing. No doubt a shotgun is ideal for that in many situations, but I wouldn't hesitate to light somebody with my locked and loaded AR either. I am extremely aware of all the shotgun options and different loads out there, but how many people looking to inflict harm on others typically go the extra mile and pay the funds for specialty firearms? A "stock" AR even with 10 round magazines IMHO is much worse than a stock configured shotgun regardless of shells used, round lethality in high volume is much worse.....now some of the home defense and tactical shotguns out there is a whole other story.  

9mm will do the same thing? A round traveling at just over 1000 fps? Really? Compared to a round traveling 3000 fps?

A .9 mm or .357 is a penetrator, most shots are all the way through a body and could potentially exit a home. Depending on the structure like drywall or brick, will obviously make some difference. But the experts and "testing" even say/shows that a .223/5.56 are not as dangerous a threat to penetrate walls as you are told/thought to believe. Here are a few vids below, the resuts might surprise you. Velocity matters for sure "at first", but weight of bullet and the amount of charge are also obvious factors. Now something like a 30.06 is a whole other animal.......obviously.   A shotgun with 00 buck has serious punch and damage, and exiting a home is most certainly possible. The 3rd vid is very eye opening........watch it for sure. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lkUvixtRVw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qgQoej5zE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiAQT96j2ZY





 

[phideux]

oh and i think an AR as a home defense gun is very stupid and negligent on the homeowners part. You must like shooting clear through walls and killing a family member in your home or a neighbor. Shotgun or hand gun is much safer inside a home except for the person you are pointing it at.

Nope, and has been proven repeatedly in many tests. he AR round, if you hit what you are shooting at, usually does not exit the body. Unless you are using some sort of steel core or AP ammo. As far as going through walls and killing your neighbors and stuff. The little AR bullet looses almost all it's energy when it hits hard objects,tends to fragment and is usually stopped by a layer or 2 of sheetrock.
Also tested repeatedly, buckshot has more of a chance of going through walls and killing folks on the other side.

[Gavin_Sons]

oh and i think an AR as a home defense gun is very stupid and negligent on the homeowners part. You must like shooting clear through walls and killing a family member in your home or a neighbor. Shotgun or hand gun is much safer inside a home except for the person you are pointing it at.

Nope, and has been proven repeatedly in many tests. he AR round, if you hit what you are shooting at, usually does not exit the body. Unless you are using some sort of steel core or AP ammo. As far as going through walls and killing your neighbors and stuff. The little AR bullet looses almost all it's energy when it hits hard objects,tends to fragment and is usually stopped by a layer or 2 of sheetrock.
Also tested repeatedly, buckshot has more of a chance of going through walls and killing folks on the other side.

Ok I stand corrected.  I would still rather have a shotgun at 2 in the morning when woken from a dead sleep. The 2 or 3 inch bigger spread gives you a much better chance at taking the perp out.  I have my 40 Springfield xdm on a magnet in the headboard of my bed and the 20 gauge 870 with collapsible stock loaded with 00 buck in the corner between the gun safe and wall. So either one will have to make it through 6 walls cabinets washer and dryer, furnace and whatever may be in the walls to reach another bedroom. Now after watching videos that were linked I may have to add another short AR to the home defense arsenal.  Thanks for the info guys. But for some reason I'm partial to the shotguns. Must be because that is what I was raised with.

[Motodad71]

Oh I hear ya on shotguns, as I have more than a few different gauges of my own. No question the last firearm I would want to be staring down the barrel at, is a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot.......little to no chance of survival.

[phideux]

oh and i think an AR as a home defense gun is very stupid and negligent on the homeowners part. You must like shooting clear through walls and killing a family member in your home or a neighbor. Shotgun or hand gun is much safer inside a home except for the person you are pointing it at.

Nope, and has been proven repeatedly in many tests. he AR round, if you hit what you are shooting at, usually does not exit the body. Unless you are using some sort of steel core or AP ammo. As far as going through walls and killing your neighbors and stuff. The little AR bullet looses almost all it's energy when it hits hard objects,tends to fragment and is usually stopped by a layer or 2 of sheetrock.
Also tested repeatedly, buckshot has more of a chance of going through walls and killing folks on the other side.

Ok I stand corrected.  I would still rather have a shotgun at 2 in the morning when woken from a dead sleep. The 2 or 3 inch bigger spread gives you a much better chance at taking the perp out.  I have my 40 Springfield xdm on a magnet in the headboard of my bed and the 20 gauge 870 with collapsible stock loaded with 00 buck in the corner between the gun safe and wall. So either one will have to make it through 6 walls cabinets washer and dryer, furnace and whatever may be in the walls to reach another bedroom. Now after watching videos that were linked I may have to add another short AR to the home defense arsenal.  Thanks for the info guys. But for some reason I'm partial to the shotguns. Must be because that is what I was raised with.

Pick the tool you use the best and feel is the best tool for the job. My favorite doesn't have to be your favorite. As long as you put the lead in the right spot when needed.