Son's New Harley

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

If you ignore the money, in many ways HD has caught up with Honda. While the 2016 F6B and 2018 Hondas have gained very little in performance over my 1997 Valkyrie, HD's performance has dramatically increased in the same amount of time.

One of the bike mags put a 2018 HD on the dyno and found it was making 106 HP at the rear wheel. That's better than our old valks. And even though they may not yet be faster in the 1/4 than our old bikes or current Hondas they soon will be if all stays the same.

If both companies maintain their current trajectories, the 2016 F6B I just bought will be as slow in 20 years compared to an HD as the HD's were compared to our Valks 20 years ago.

Sadly, today it seems to be Honda who is stuck in the past and HD who is reaching for the future. I love Honda motorcycles and have had more than I can count. But, their engineering used to be top flight, and still seems to be as far as durability is concerned. But in the "muscle bike/muscle cruiser" category they have been stagnate for 20 years while the rest of the motorcycle world kept improving.

What HD bike in stock form made 106 to the tire? CVO stage 5?

Can't find it now and don't remember which Mag I read it in. I know it was the new 8 valve motor though. I'm wondering now if I reversed the HP/torque figures? This dyno run would seem to indicate I did or the mag did. My appolgizes if I had it "back-ass-wards".   https://kovids.net/video/brand-new-2017-flhx-cvo-114-ci-dyno-run-Sc9vqOGUDrk.html

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Found it. Page 37 of the December 2017 Cycle World lists their dyno results for the 2018 Heritage classic 107.84 HP.

But, in looking closer, I think they may have reversed their torque and HP figures since the max HP arrives at 3,190 RPM and the max torque at 4,680 RPM.

If so, then max HP is 81.47 and max torque is 107.84. Oops, I should have questioned their results I guess.

Either way, when our early Valks were built they were performance leaders in the touring/cruiser class. Now 20 years later, my new F6B has roughly the same power as my 21 year-old Valk does. I do think it accelerates faster from 70-100+ mph than my Valk but it's not amazingly faster. For sure, it doesn't feel 2 decades faster.

I like the bike, it handles well and feels lighter than my Valk even though it's not. The electronic cruise rocks as do the heated grips. The integrated saddlebags seem well made. The OEM seat is superb and I doubt that we'll need to upgrade it. Fifth gear is an OD so the motor is more relaxed at high speed than my Valk. I feel pretty comfortable that it will last as long as my riding ability does. (I'm 60 now)

But, unlike our old Valks, in 20 years it won't be considered fast unless some disaster strikes the motorcycle world. I see that as a failure on Honda's part. In particular when you consider the power today's Triumph Rockets and 6 cylinder Beemers make. I bought it because it seemed to be the best bike Honda was making when I was in a position to buy, and I don't regret buying it. Not sure how I'll feel when the rest of the motorcycle world passes it by though.

[98valk]

"There's a sucker born every minute" is a phrase closely associated with P. T. Barnum, an American showman of the mid-19th century, although there is no evidence he in fact said it. Early examples of its use are found instead among gamblers and confidence men.


I think that quote is on every HD employees paycheck.   

[rocketray]

try the 2018 Alfa Romeo Guilia...50k loaded knock off $5k easily on a lease...150 mph..Motor trends car of the year..every thing is "soft"--go test drive one..."AMAZING"

[northernvalk]

If you ignore the money, in many ways HD has caught up with Honda. While the 2016 F6B and 2018 Hondas have gained very little in performance over my 1997 Valkyrie, HD's performance has dramatically increased in the same amount of time.

One of the bike mags put a 2018 HD on the dyno and found it was making 106 HP at the rear wheel. That's better than our old valks. And even though they may not yet be faster in the 1/4 than our old bikes or current Hondas they soon will be if all stays the same.

If both companies maintain their current trajectories, the 2016 F6B I just bought will be as slow in 20 years compared to an HD as the HD's were compared to our Valks 20 years ago.

Sadly, today it seems to be Honda who is stuck in the past and HD who is reaching for the future. I love Honda motorcycles and have had more than I can count. But, their engineering used to be top flight, and still seems to be as far as durability is concerned. But in the "muscle bike/muscle cruiser" category they have been stagnate for 20 years while the rest of the motorcycle world kept improving.

What HD bike in stock form made 106 to the tire? CVO stage 5?

Can't find it now and don't remember which Mag I read it in. I know it was the new 8 valve motor though. I'm wondering now if I reversed the HP/torque figures? This dyno run would seem to indicate I did or the mag did. My appolgizes if I had it "back-ass-wards".   https://kovids.net/video/brand-new-2017-flhx-cvo-114-ci-dyno-run-Sc9vqOGUDrk.html

Just as I thought, cvo done to the 9's for the test. They get away with calling it stock because they package it that way but its not a "stock " Flhx.

[Pappy!]

If you ignore the money, in many ways HD has caught up with Honda. While the 2016 F6B and 2018 Hondas have gained very little in performance over my 1997 Valkyrie, HD's performance has dramatically increased in the same amount of time.

One of the bike mags put a 2018 HD on the dyno and found it was making 106 HP at the rear wheel. That's better than our old valks. And even though they may not yet be faster in the 1/4 than our old bikes or current Hondas they soon will be if all stays the same.

If both companies maintain their current trajectories, the 2016 F6B I just bought will be as slow in 20 years compared to an HD as the HD's were compared to our Valks 20 years ago.

Sadly, today it seems to be Honda who is stuck in the past and HD who is reaching for the future. I love Honda motorcycles and have had more than I can count. But, their engineering used to be top flight, and still seems to be as far as durability is concerned. But in the "muscle bike/muscle cruiser" category they have been stagnate for 20 years while the rest of the motorcycle world kept improving.

Not necessarily!
Harley's big stumbling block is air cooling and the EPA. They have gone about as far as they can with that engine platform short of increasing displacement again. Liquid cooled engines can produce substantially more HP/Cu. in. compared to an air cooled engine and still meet emissions and enjoy increased longevity. That was one of the reasons why HD had to go to the liquid cooled exhaust valves and their following cried like babies about it.
HD would love to retain their existing engine platform because the tooling is paid for, the technology is "proven" and their V-twin engine is absolutely dirt cheap to produce which is probably why they can continue to use a lot of chrome on it!

[cookiedough]

And THAT is exactly why HD is slowly dying.........

What you say is true....keeps me from buying one.    However I did read somewhere that yes Harley Davidson sales are way off, but, so are foreign made bike sales.  the article said that the new generation is just not as interested in motorcycles as the last generation.   Probably because of the price of new motorcycles.   

Well, that, and IMHO, most of them are kinda wimpy. .  Not all, but most.

as well as outrageiously high cost of insurance for someone under age 25 on even my kids 1997 Honda 748cc magna is more than when I had 5 cycles under my name.  No one can afford insurance on any cycle if under age 25 as a stand alone policy, or should I say almost everyone.    We quoted putting his cycle under his name only as his own policy since age 17 now, but I just laughed when the quote came back - WOW, NO thanks....

Yah,  those magnas are quick and like to rev high,  pretty sure 0 to 60 mph it beats our Valks until hit 3rd gear anyways.  Kid wants to sell it said NO cheap insurance, fast and big enough,  he wants a yamaha Vmax or sport touring bike like a yamaha fjr1300 or ???  Kids never satisfied I guess and the need for more speed can not be good under age 18.  One thing is for sure,  he will spend his own money on any cycle since all of those are over 2 grand in pricing being newer and bigger cc's.  I let him drive the 98 Valkyrie but is a bit top heavy for someone age 17, plus the old car tire on back does not help with cornering ability even at 28 psi.

[3fan4life]

Yes it is nice he has the means to be able to do this and he is enjoying wind. My mind goes to HD now that I let this sink in, is it even possible to get a new wing to 56g OTD?

Anything is possible. I'm sure a Honda dealer would willingly take 56k from me if I was willing to give it up. As to the Harley thing. I have buddies that spent 30k each for theirs a few years back. I loose track of all the Harley model designations, but they are setup like a F6B. They are happy. I am happy to ride with them. I almost spent 30k on a new Wing. I'm sure many here would have given me the side eye . Life is short, get out and enjoy it.  

Not from me.

If I could justify spending $30k right now on a New Wing I would.

In a few years I'll probably pick up a good used one and save some $$$.

[98valk]

And THAT is exactly why HD is slowly dying.........

What you say is true....keeps me from buying one.    However I did read somewhere that yes Harley Davidson sales are way off, but, so are foreign made bike sales.  the article said that the new generation is just not as interested in motorcycles as the last generation.   Probably because of the price of new motorcycles.   

Well, that, and IMHO, most of them are kinda wimpy. .  Not all, but most.

as well as outrageiously high cost of insurance for someone under age 25 on even my kids 1997 Honda 748cc magna is more than when I had 5 cycles under my name.  No one can afford insurance on any cycle if under age 25 as a stand alone policy, or should I say almost everyone.    We quoted putting his cycle under his name only as his own policy since age 17 now, but I just laughed when the quote came back - WOW, NO thanks....

Yah,  those magnas are quick and like to rev high,  pretty sure 0 to 60 mph it beats our Valks until hit 3rd gear anyways.  Kid wants to sell it said NO cheap insurance, fast and big enough,  he wants a yamaha Vmax or sport touring bike like a yamaha fjr1300 or ???  Kids never satisfied I guess and the need for more speed can not be good under age 18.  One thing is for sure,  he will spend his own money on any cycle since all of those are over 2 grand in pricing being newer and bigger cc's.  I let him drive the 98 Valkyrie but is a bit top heavy for someone age 17, plus the old car tire on back does not help with cornering ability even at 28 psi.

magna 750     0-60   4.37sec
97 valkyrie     0-60   3.86 sec
99 tourer        0-60   4.12 sec
'14 valkyrie    0-60    3.41 sec
'01 GL1800     0-60   3.77 sec

source: Motorcycle consumer news.

[Gryphon]

 I let him drive the 98 Valkyrie but is a bit top heavy for someone age 17, plus the old car tire on back does not help with cornering ability even at 28 psi.

I'm on my 4th "non-motorcycle specific" tire and I've found my best handling at around 35 psi.  28 tends to be kind of soft, wallows a bit.  Although at 17 I weighed about half what I do now at 60.

[J.Mencalice]

Visualize roadways carrying many electric motorcycles around cities and the country.  They are coming faster than we can predict once the battery storage and length of recharging questions are answered.
If they are being tested on race tracks (Isle of Man, Pikes Peak Hill Climb) and test tracks, they have arrived at the doorstep of production for the masses.  The youth of America will embrace them as they are new toys for their future.

[98valk]

Visualize roadways carrying many electric motorcycles around cities and the country.  They are coming faster than we can predict once the battery storage and length of recharging questions are answered.
If they are being tested on race tracks (Isle of Man, Pikes Peak Hill Climb) and test tracks, they have arrived at the doorstep of production for the masses.  The youth of America will embrace them as they are new toys for their future.

highly inefficient esp in cooler temps, 32f for a electric car forget it, are only happening because of tax dollars going to them to make. without tax dollars they would not be in business. electric cars, motorcycles etc., they are the plan of ones in charge so that u will always have to buy a vehicle every 7-10yrs. for when the battery packs need replacement it will be cheaper to just buy a new vehicle. no more keeping your IC vehicle running for 20-40yrs. can't rebuild batteries and old electronic computers when parts are non-existent. then start looking into the environmental cost of mining for $$$$ minerals to build the batteries. pollution is still there it is just past to the power plants.

[Dave Ritsema]

Visualize roadways carrying many electric motorcycles around cities and the country.  They are coming faster than we can predict once the battery storage and length of recharging questions are answered.
If they are being tested on race tracks (Isle of Man, Pikes Peak Hill Climb) and test tracks, they have arrived at the doorstep of production for the masses.  The youth of America will embrace them as they are new toys for their future.

The PD is already using them where I live. I know several officers that tide them in the summer and they love them.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/fleet/police/

[northernvalk]

Visualize roadways carrying many electric motorcycles around cities and the country.  They are coming faster than we can predict once the battery storage and length of recharging questions are answered.
If they are being tested on race tracks (Isle of Man, Pikes Peak Hill Climb) and test tracks, they have arrived at the doorstep of production for the masses.  The youth of America will embrace them as they are new toys for their future.

highly inefficient esp in cooler temps, 32f for a electric car forget it, are only happening because of tax dollars going to them to make. without tax dollars they would not be in business. electric cars, motorcycles etc., they are the plan of ones in charge so that u will always have to buy a vehicle every 7-10yrs. for when the battery packs need replacement it will be cheaper to just buy a new vehicle. no more keeping your IC vehicle running for 20-40yrs. can't rebuild batteries and old electronic computers when parts are non-existent. then start looking into the environmental cost of mining for $$$$ minerals to build the batteries. pollution is still there it is just past to the power plants.

Batteries are getting cheaper...My friend owns a NAPA outlet and he can get new battery "packs" for around $1800 for hybrids.  He is looking far a cheap Tahoe hybrid right now that needs a new battery pack.

[Jess Tolbirt]

And THAT is exactly why HD is slowly dying.........

What you say is true....keeps me from buying one.    However I did read somewhere that yes Harley Davidson sales are way off, but, so are foreign made bike sales.  the article said that the new generation is just not as interested in motorcycles as the last generation.   Probably because of the price of new motorcycles.  

Well, that, and IMHO, most of them are kinda wimpy. .  Not all, but most.

as well as outrageiously high cost of insurance for someone under age 25 on even my kids 1997 Honda 748cc magna is more than when I had 5 cycles under my name.  No one can afford insurance on any cycle if under age 25 as a stand alone policy, or should I say almost everyone.    We quoted putting his cycle under his name only as his own policy since age 17 now, but I just laughed when the quote came back - WOW, NO thanks....

Yah,  those magnas are quick and like to rev high,  pretty sure 0 to 60 mph it beats our Valks until hit 3rd gear anyways.  Kid wants to sell it said NO cheap insurance, fast and big enough,  he wants a yamaha Vmax or sport touring bike like a yamaha fjr1300 or ???  Kids never satisfied I guess and the need for more speed can not be good under age 18.  One thing is for sure,  he will spend his own money on any cycle since all of those are over 2 grand in pricing being newer and bigger cc's.  I let him drive the 98 Valkyrie but is a bit top heavy for someone age 17, plus the old car tire on back does not help with cornering ability even at 28 psi.

magna 750     0-60   4.37sec
97 valkyrie     0-60   3.86 sec
99 tourer        0-60   4.12 sec
'14 valkyrie    0-60    3.41 sec
'01 GL1800     0-60   3.77 sec

source: Motorcycle consumer news.

my road king stock.. 0-60 in 4.2 sec.  https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/harley-davidson-0-60-mph-times/fast-slow-quarter-mile/

[98valk]

And THAT is exactly why HD is slowly dying.........

What you say is true....keeps me from buying one.    However I did read somewhere that yes Harley Davidson sales are way off, but, so are foreign made bike sales.  the article said that the new generation is just not as interested in motorcycles as the last generation.   Probably because of the price of new motorcycles.  

Well, that, and IMHO, most of them are kinda wimpy. .  Not all, but most.

as well as outrageiously high cost of insurance for someone under age 25 on even my kids 1997 Honda 748cc magna is more than when I had 5 cycles under my name.  No one can afford insurance on any cycle if under age 25 as a stand alone policy, or should I say almost everyone.    We quoted putting his cycle under his name only as his own policy since age 17 now, but I just laughed when the quote came back - WOW, NO thanks....

Yah,  those magnas are quick and like to rev high,  pretty sure 0 to 60 mph it beats our Valks until hit 3rd gear anyways.  Kid wants to sell it said NO cheap insurance, fast and big enough,  he wants a yamaha Vmax or sport touring bike like a yamaha fjr1300 or ???  Kids never satisfied I guess and the need for more speed can not be good under age 18.  One thing is for sure,  he will spend his own money on any cycle since all of those are over 2 grand in pricing being newer and bigger cc's.  I let him drive the 98 Valkyrie but is a bit top heavy for someone age 17, plus the old car tire on back does not help with cornering ability even at 28 psi.

magna 750     0-60   4.37sec
97 valkyrie     0-60   3.86 sec
99 tourer        0-60   4.12 sec
'14 valkyrie    0-60    3.41 sec
'01 GL1800     0-60   3.77 sec

source: Motorcycle consumer news.

my road king stock.. 0-60 in 4.2 sec.  https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/harley-davidson-0-60-mph-times/fast-slow-quarter-mile/

rk is listed as 5.0 and 5.6.  that site list avgs taken from various websites. not actual testing. MCN shows same times and they tested the RK.

[northernvalk]

Thanks for the reality check 98....

[hubcapsc]

Visualize roadways carrying many electric motorcycles around cities and the country.  They are coming faster than we can predict once the battery storage and length of recharging questions are answered.
If they are being tested on race tracks (Isle of Man, Pikes Peak Hill Climb) and test tracks, they have arrived at the doorstep of production for the masses.  The youth of America will embrace them as they are new toys for their future.

highly inefficient esp in cooler temps, 32f for a electric car forget it, are only happening because of tax dollars going to them to make. without tax dollars they would not be in business. electric cars, motorcycles etc., they are the plan of ones in charge so that u will always have to buy a vehicle every 7-10yrs. for when the battery packs need replacement it will be cheaper to just buy a new vehicle. no more keeping your IC vehicle running for 20-40yrs. can't rebuild batteries and old electronic computers when parts are non-existent. then start looking into the environmental cost of mining for $$$$ minerals to build the batteries. pollution is still there it is just past to the power plants.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/cold-weather-driving.64591/

-Mike