Florida man who invoked 'stand your ground' is charged with manslaughter

[..]

I'm on the side of the charge. Flame suit on.
Watch the video and see the black guy was stepping away after the initial push.

Don't forget we can't hear what was being said and the volume of those words.

The white guy is doing the "I'm telling you" finger pointing which is normally accompanied with raised volume.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6056167/Florida-man-charged-stand-ground-shooting.html

[Dave Ritsema]

So just because someone is speaking loudly to another party whom they have perceived is breaking the law in their presence its ok to put your hands on them and shove them to the ground?

"But they were only breaking the law for a few minutes" so I suppose that's ok? While I don't know that I would have reacted the same regarding pulling out a firearm and pulling the trigger the guy that got shot was far from innocent and had he simply parked in a legal manner to begin with and not put hands on the guy the outcome may have been much different. Both parties contributed to the way this ultimately played out.

[JFaje1]

What ever happened to the days before everyone carrying a gun, would just have a fight and the loser would go home with some cuts and bruises. I think our gun colcher has gone a little to far.
I am not against gun ownership, but to think we have to have one everywhere we go is not the best thing.
John

[Robert]

The guy was shoved to the ground pretty hard, so its assault. Now was the guy in danger of his life after he was shoved is another question. Its a shame to loose your life for a parking spot.

[Dave Ritsema]

The guy was shoved to the ground pretty hard, so its assault. Now was the guy in danger of his life after he was shoved is another question. Its a shame to loose your life for a parking spot.

Agreed.

Had the guy not pulled a gun and shot that was clearly assault . Where does one draw the line on getting pushed to the ground and having a reasonable fear for your life? It also appeared the guy that got shot had another guy coming up behind him quick that looked like he was ready to back him up, until he saw the gun. Tough call for sure to have to make in a split second. While I concede it appears overly aggressive from the small bit of information we have available to us that might be a tough one to get a jury to convict on in a stand your ground state.   

[Robert]

White man shooting black man does not figure in does it. 

[da prez]

  There were more than one person standing. Did he have to shoot. It's a judgement call. He saw two attackers. Over reaction. ??

                                            da prez

[f6gal]

The guy was shoved to the ground pretty hard, so its assault. Now was the guy in danger of his life after he was shoved is another question. Its a shame to loose your life for a parking spot.

Agreed.

Had the guy not pulled a gun and shot that was clearly assault . Where does one draw the line on getting pushed to the ground and having a reasonable fear for your life? It also appeared the guy that got shot had another guy coming up behind him quick that looked like he was ready to back him up, until he saw the gun. Tough call for sure to have to make in a split second. While I concede it appears overly aggressive from the small bit of information we have available to us that might be a tough one to get a jury to convict on in a stand your ground state.   

All depends on jury selection.

[The emperor has no clothes]

The guy was shoved to the ground pretty hard, so its assault. Now was the guy in danger of his life after he was shoved is another question. Its a shame to loose your life for a parking spot.

Agreed.

Had the guy not pulled a gun and shot that was clearly assault . Where does one draw the line on getting pushed to the ground and having a reasonable fear for your life? It also appeared the guy that got shot had another guy coming up behind him quick that looked like he was ready to back him up, until he saw the gun. Tough call for sure to have to make in a split second. While I concede it appears overly aggressive from the small bit of information we have available to us that might be a tough one to get a jury to convict on in a stand your ground state.   

There is just a small amount of information and video to base a decision. For one thing, I have never or would I ever park in a handicapped space. But if I came out of a store and a man was yelling at my wife I might very well push him to the ground also. It sure didn't look to me the second man was close enough to make him think 2 guys were going to gang up on him. As a matter of fact, as soon as the guy pulls his gun the second dude makes like a rabbit. I see no way this is a justifiable shooting.

[Gavin_Sons]

I agree with the charge. This guy was a loose cannon. He first threatened the mans girlfriend and kids. I would have shoved his dumb ass too. This guy needs to rot in prison.

[Moonshot_1]

I agree with the charge. This guy was a loose cannon. He first threatened the mans girlfriend and kids. I would have shoved his dumb ass too. This guy needs to rot in prison.

I concur. The parking spot issue is irrelevant. The man's girlfriend and kids were being verbally assaulted. I would think the Stand your ground defense would have applied to the guy who got shot rather that the idiot doing the shooting in this case.

Good call on the charge and I hope it sticks.

[J.Mencalice]

Documented in the story that the shooter had three previous incidents where he drew his gun on other motorists.  That tells all that I need to know about this POS.

My impression is that this murderer was long in looking for an excuse to shoot someone and the man that finally stood up to him was gunned down with what looked like a center mass single shot to the chest.  Then he sits there and appears to reach and pick up something (expended cartridge?) and then eventually get up while waving his right hand and arm in what looks like him telling someone to get out of there or get back from him.

The shooter knew that he would have gotten his ass beaten to the ground and so he did what most cowards do in that situation: shoot your opponent dead with a gun and then cry to the law that he "felt threatened".  Hide behind some worthless statute that was voted in by those who fear to settle a physical confrontation with their fists to a win, lose or draw.  This murderer should have said his peace to the woman in the car and then walked away or called the cops to swear out a complaint against the operator of the vehicle.  He stayed to escalate it to another level which the other guy showed he was happy to accommodate him (shoving him to get him away from the woman and kids) and the murderer took out his gun and just shot him dead.  Looks like no attempt to rise and retreat to a defensive posture as a warning for his opponent to stop.  I hope the video will show that in court in the hands of a competent prosecutor.

A gun in the hands of a coward is a dangerous tool.

He'll probably get some sort of manslaughter plea deal, get sentenced to 5-7 and serve 3-4 years.
Horseshit, I would say.  He needs about 25-30 years that would put him as an old, doddering doober when they let him out.
The civil trial will award the survivors all the money that they can squeeze out of his gonads.

[¿spoom]

I'll wait until the trial is over to have an opinion.

[baldo]

Throw away the key.

[Shasta]

He had every right to push the scum to the ground.  The scum had been wanting and threatening to shoot someone prior to this incident.  Murder.  Like already stated throw away the key.

[The emperor has no clothes]

He had every right to push the scum to the ground.  The scum had been wanting and threatening to shoot someone prior to this incident.  Murder.  Like already stated throw away the key.

Shasta, you guys doing alright up there ? I haven't heard any reports about the fire lately, hope everything's ok. 

[Rams]

Not suggesting anything except to say that being judged by the evidence presented by a media I don't trust and an Internet forum is not how I would prefer my guilt or innocence decided.   

Rams

[The emperor has no clothes]

Not suggesting anything except to say that being judged by the evidence presented by a media I don't trust and an Internet forum is not how I would prefer my guilt or innocence decided.   

Rams

He will get his day in court. Nothing has been decided.

[old2soon]

      AND I will NOT be called fer jury duty on That Case! Anyone here Know if the other three incidents can be alluded to for showing intent? I personally have the handicap parking permit in the cage and the tag on Phatt Ghurl. Even here in outer Podunk I encounter lotsa violations of the handicap parking spaces. When egressing or ingressing my vehicle the doofus in question is rarely around to point out their error in ways!  My initial thought on the shove and shooting was and is an over reaction. BUT I also understand protecting ones own. BUT as my opening statement said-Not up to me!  RIDE SAFE.

[Serk]

I tend to side against whoever first broke the seal of initiating violence with VERY limited exceptions (I.E. specific verbal threats of violence aren't technically initiated violence but can be treated as such.)

But, other than a cursory watch through, I don't know enough of the details on this case to pass judgement, which is good since I won't be on the jury anyway and my opinion won't matter for squat.

If I WERE on the jury for me a lot would depend on specifically what was said before the violence was initiated. If it were along the lines of "You dumb blah blah" that's very different from "I'm gonna kill you and your whole family." One could justify the initiation of violence that the assault (Shove) entailed, one wouldn't.

[sutterhome]

Steve Earle said it best " the devils right hand"

[Willow]

Someone who is shouting obscenities to a man's wife and in front of his children should expect to be shoved when the man returns.  As to the shoving to the ground I didn't see it.  I saw a shove that said, "get away" and the wimp with the 22 lost his footing.

"Stand your ground" does not justify shooting someone because you're angry.

The perpetrator has done a great disservice to those who rightfully carry a weapon for defense. 

[Chrisj CMA]

The only thing that may save the shooter (from the video) is the fact that imediately after the shove the black guy stepped towards the shooter and postured like he was not done.

I would not have drawn my weapon, he did. His prior behavior really has little to do with the current case.

The question is going to come down to was it reasonable to be in fear of his life when he shot.  I would say no not reasonable. But would not be shocked if someone else felt different.

[G-Man]

I'm amazed that people here are actually saying the black guy was right in pushing the man to the ground.

And yes, he pushed him to the ground.  Whether he lost his footing doesn't matter.  He would not have lost his footing if he were not pushed.

The black guy made first contact.  Doesn't matter what the white guy said or did, as long as he didn't physically touch anyone or actually make the move to touch someone.

No he didn't deserve to die, and the details and decision will be based on the trial and none of us can make the outcome call with what we have before us.

This remind me of the Trayvon Martin shooting.  The stupid kid was a block and half from home.  Had he just gone home, he'd be alive and the country wouldn't have been torn apart.  But nope, like a big man, he told his girlfriend on phone that he was gonna find out what this guys problem is.  He then picked a fight with an armed man.  Same crap here.  White guy was yelling at his wife and the black guy picked a fight not knowing the man was armed and he paid the price.

Moral of the story...........  People carry guns and you don't know who or what they are.  If you put your hands on that person, you will get shot and die.  Don't put your hands on anybody and this won't happen.

I know, I know, you're all such brave and strong men that anyone who looks a second longer than they have to is gonna get his ass kicked.  If that's your thing, you're an idiot.  I've seen it soooooo many times, especially where I grew up.  Asshole picks a fight with someone he's sure he can beat and the other guys pulls a knife, box cutter, a rock or a bottle, even a hammer one time. 

STOP PHYSICALLY TOUCHING STRANGERS, YOU'LL NEVER KNOW HOW IT'S GONNA END!

[Gavin_Sons]

I'm amazed that people here are actually saying the black guy was right in pushing the man to the ground.

And yes, he pushed him to the ground.  Whether he lost his footing doesn't matter.  He would not have lost his footing if he were not pushed.

The black guy made first contact.  Doesn't matter what the white guy said or did, as long as he didn't physically touch anyone or actually make the move to touch someone.

No he didn't deserve to die, and the details and decision will be based on the trial and none of us can make the outcome call with what we have before us.

This remind me of the Trayvon Martin shooting.  The stupid kid was a block and half from home.  Had he just gone home, he'd be alive and the country wouldn't have been torn apart.  But nope, like a big man, he told his girlfriend on phone that he was gonna find out what this guys problem is.  He then picked a fight with an armed man.  Same poop here.  White guy was yelling at his wife and the black guy picked a fight not knowing the man was armed and he paid the price.

Moral of the story...........  People carry guns and you don't know who or what they are.  If you put your hands on that person, you will get shot and die.  Don't put your hands on anybody and this won't happen.

I know, I know, you're all such brave and strong men that anyone who looks a second longer than they have to is gonna get his ass kicked.  If that's your thing, you're an idiot.  I've seen it soooooo many times, especially where I grew up.  Asshole picks a fight with someone he's sure he can beat and the other guys pulls a knife, box cutter, a rock or a bottle, even a hammer one time. 

STOP PHYSICALLY TOUCHING STRANGERS, YOU'LL NEVER KNOW HOW IT'S GONNA END!

The white guy was the first agressor. He deserved to have the crap beat out of him. I hope he spends the rest of his days in prison being someone's bitch.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Gary, I know you don’t want to hear my response. But, it’s coming anyways. The man coming out of the store and seeing the mother of his kids and them being yelled at by this man was aggression. The man didn’t rush him and tackle him. He walked up and pushed him. One never knows exactly how they will react until faced with a particular situation. I’m pretty sure I would have got in his face and probably pushed, punched, tackled him. (Maybe all 3)
  We are more different than I realized.  ???

[Serk]

I'll admit, in a more abstract way (Not specifically about this situation) it does surprise and disturb me how many of my brethren think that someone saying mean things is justification for the initiation of violence.

IMHO violence should only be initiated in response to violence or a threat of violence. Anything less than that and you're the bad guy in the situation.

Once a situation begins down the path of physical altercation, it's only a matter of degrees and escalations, but I'd never want to be the one that takes the first step on that path in any situation unless it was completely unavoidable.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'll admit, in a more abstract way (Not specifically about this situation) it does surprise and disturb me how many of my brethren think that someone saying mean things is justification for the initiation of violence.

IMHO violence should only be initiated in response to violence or a threat of violence. Anything less than that and you're the bad guy in the situation.

Once a situation begins down the path of physical altercation, it's only a matter of degrees and escalations, but I'd never want to be the one that takes the first step on that path in any situation unless it was completely unavoidable.

As am I surprised at the amount of my brethren who wouldn’t. I’m curious what you believe your response would have been in that situation ?

[Skinhead]

What if the black dude said, after shoving the man to the ground, "I'm gonna get my hogleg and kill your honky ass!"  as he turned and walked away, would the shooter be justified then?  I don't know enough from what I saw in a video to decide.  I would love to sit on that jury and hear the evidence.

[Serk]

I’m curious what you believe your response would have been in that situation ?

Off the cuff cop out response is that I wouldn't put myself in that situation in the first place.

But really, I wouldn't.

If I were the black dude I wouldn't have parked in a handicap spot. If regardless I came out and some dude was yelling at my wife I'd at most yell back, more likely just ignore him and drive off, unless there was any indication of intentions to escalate. I would not have physically attacked someone for saying mean things. Committing attempted murder or at the very least assault is not the appropriate and reasonable response to someone running their mouth.

If I were the white guy I at most would have rolled my eyes at the illegal parker, not taken it upon myself to berate the dude's wife for illegal parking. If for whatever reason I was the white guy and the black dude assaulted me, I would assess the situation as it exists on the ground at that moment in time. If it appeared he was done and was leaving, I'd try to get his license plate so that I could file assault charges against him. If it appeared he was going for reinforcements, coming back or any other attempt at further physical escalation, I would stop that from happening.

[The emperor has no clothes]

What if the black dude said, after shoving the man to the ground, "I'm gonna get my hogleg and kill your honky ass!"  as he turned and walked away, would the shooter be justified then?  I don't know enough from what I saw in a video to decide.  I would love to sit on that jury and hear the evidence.

I think I've only seen the video 2 or 3 times. But as I recall there MIGHT have been enough time to get out "I'm gonna". And the answer is no. If he is walking away, you can't shoot him in the back.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I’m curious what you believe your response would have been in that situation ?

Off the cuff cop out response is that I wouldn't put myself in that situation in the first place.

But really, I wouldn't.

If I were the black dude I wouldn't have parked in a handicap spot. If regardless I came out and some dude was yelling at my wife I'd at most yell back, more likely just ignore him and drive off, unless there was any indication of intentions to escalate. I would not have physically attacked someone for saying mean things. Committing attempted murder or at the very least assault is not the appropriate and reasonable response to someone running their mouth.

If I were the white guy I at most would have rolled my eyes at the illegal parker, not taken it upon myself to berate the dude's wife for illegal parking. If for whatever reason I was the white guy and the black dude assaulted me, I would assess the situation as it exists on the ground at that moment in time. If it appeared he was done and was leaving, I'd try to get his license plate so that I could file assault charges against him. If it appeared he was going for reinforcements, coming back or any other attempt at further physical escalation, I would stop that from happening.

You are calmer than I. I probably would have got between he and my wife and would be yelling at him. Which would have put us practically nose to nose, and then I probably would have pushed him out of my space.
 I too would never park in a handicap space. I feel guilty enough the few times I've driven my Inlaws somewhere with their plates. I feel I should drop them at the door and park normally. And 90% of the time that's what I do.

[Serk]

You are calmer than I. I probably would have got between he and my wife and would be yelling at him. Which would have put us practically nose to nose, and then I probably would have pushed him out of my space.
 I too would never park in a handicap space. I feel guilty enough the few times I've driven my Inlaws somewhere with their plates. I feel I should drop them at the door and park normally. And 90% of the time that's what I do.

Conflict avoidance, resolution and deescalation are all things I train on almost as much as I train on how to use my firearm. I consider those skills critical for anyone that carries, and I carry all day every day and have for 15 years now.

[G-Man]

Those who blast off with violence when the other person is just yelling has absolutely NO street smarts what-so-ever, or have NEVER been in a situation like that and are just talking out of their ass.

Too many time I have seen a person get hurt real bad getting into it with a stranger. 

I have a new name for people who would actually do that........ Trayvon.

So, for all you Trayvons sitting at your keyboards in your underwear or stealing time from your employers, have at it.  Be the tough guy and keyboard cowboy.  Approach someone you don't know because you don't like what he said or how he said it. 

There are so many stories out there like this, but just as may Trayvons I guess.

[G-Man]

I'm hoping one of our legal eagles will chime in.

Here's the question........  Who is legally right and who is legally wrong?

Man one is yelling up a storm but isn't committing any acts of violence and making no aggressive moves in the direction of committing an act of violence.  Man two comes out of store, sees man one yelling at his family, runs over and knocks man one to the ground.

From my Podiatric knowledge, if it ends here, Man two is the guilty party.

Unfortunately, it does not end there.  Man two is dead and his family now has to pay for his stupid choice to attack a stranger who happened to have a gun and Man one now faces charges for a bad shooting.  Lots of lives upended because Man two attacked a stranger who was armed and dangerous.

"But how would he know he was armed?" you may ask.  THAT is my point exactly, Trayvon.  He didn't. 

[Chrisj CMA]

Open carry?

[Gavin_Sons]

I'm hoping one of our legal eagles will chime in.

Here's the question........  Who is legally right and who is legally wrong?

Man one is yelling up a storm but isn't committing any acts of violence and making no aggressive moves in the direction of committing an act of violence.  Man two comes out of store, sees man one yelling at his family, runs over and knocks man one to the ground.

From my Podiatric knowledge, if it ends here, Man two is the guilty party.

Unfortunately, it does not end there.  Man two is dead and his family now has to pay for his stupid choice to attack a stranger who happened to have a gun and Man one now faces charges for a bad shooting.  Lots of lives upended because Man two attacked a stranger who was armed and dangerous.

"But how would he know he was armed?" you may ask.  THAT is my point exactly, Trayvon.  He didn't. 

Man one is guilty because when you carry it is your duty to try to descalate the situation. He was not descalating but rather the escalator.

[Moonshot_1]

Watched again. I see this as a 1st degree murder charge. Reason is at about the 57sec point of the video. The guy is moving back right before the gun is drawn. I am guessing that as the man went down he said something to the effect of shooting him. Then when the gun was completely drawn it is even clearer that there was no longer a threat. He shot him anyway. I see premeditation here. Just from the video. If guy #1 continued to advance then maybe the shot would be justified. But he stopped his advance BEFORE the gun was actually drawn.

[G-Man]

I'm hoping one of our legal eagles will chime in.

Here's the question........  Who is legally right and who is legally wrong?

Man one is yelling up a storm but isn't committing any acts of violence and making no aggressive moves in the direction of committing an act of violence.  Man two comes out of store, sees man one yelling at his family, runs over and knocks man one to the ground.

From my Podiatric knowledge, if it ends here, Man two is the guilty party.

Unfortunately, it does not end there.  Man two is dead and his family now has to pay for his stupid choice to attack a stranger who happened to have a gun and Man one now faces charges for a bad shooting.  Lots of lives upended because Man two attacked a stranger who was armed and dangerous.

"But how would he know he was armed?" you may ask.  THAT is my point exactly, Trayvon.  He didn't. 

Man one is guilty because when you carry it is your duty to try to descalate the situation. He was not descalating but rather the escalator.

But this is after the initial contact made by Man two, right? 

[G-Man]

Watched again. I see this as a 1st degree murder charge. Reason is at about the 57sec point of the video. The guy is moving back right before the gun is drawn. I am guessing that as the man went down he said something to the effect of shooting him. Then when the gun was completely drawn it is even clearer that there was no longer a threat. He shot him anyway. I see premeditation here. Just from the video. If guy #1 continued to advance then maybe the shot would be justified. But he stopped his advance BEFORE the gun was actually drawn.

Premeditation means he planned to shoot that man, so I'm not sure it applies.  But certainly some degree of murder is in order.

So f___ing stupid.  Yell back at the guy if you must then get the car and leave.  Touch a stranger, you have absolutely no idea what's gonna happen next.