Have you ever witnessed or experienced a bona fide miracle?

[Wizzard]

My oldest daughter wrecked her car in a snow storm some years back. Car went end over end twice then rolled once and landed on its top. She had her seat belt on. She climbed out unscathed and walked to the farmers house and called me. I went to pick her up, looked at the car and a steel fence post had come up through the floorboard right behind her seat, through the headrest and was sticking out the roof. She had no idea.

Some may call that luck or circumstance.
I call it a miracle.

Was in my mind. No doubt at all.

[Gryphon Rider]

Also known as Pascal's Wager.

My counter to it is if you believe and you're wrong, and you've been worshiping the WRONG deity, then when you die you'll be punished even harsher than someone who never picked a deity to worship at all.

You are right to illustrate the offensiveness of worshipping the wrong deity, but not acknowledging the Creator Of All, His attributes and His deeds, is just as offensive, if not more so.  The first four of the Ten Commandments are about fidelity to Him, showing Him true reverence, and acknowledging His role as creator of all.

The Biblical term for worshipping the wrong god is idolatry.  Wrapped up in the concept of idolatry is:
worshipping something/someone other than our Creator God,
giving something else a higher importance or priority than God,
attributing God's deeds and/or unique attributes to something/someone other than God,
assuming prerogatives that God reserves for Himself alone.

By "never picking a deity," you a not acknowledging the One True God, and in essence committing idolatry.  You are worshipping yourself by assuming upon yourself God's prerogative of determining what is truth.  By declaring that the universe was not created, but was rather entirely the result of natural processes, you are worshipping the universe by declaring the created to be the creator.

So, by "never picking a deity," one is, in fact, picking a deity, that is, himself.

[f6john]

So, by "never picking a deity," one is, in fact, picking a deity, that is, himself.

Gryphon Rider,

That is so far from the truth, it is pathetic, or maybe you are talking about Trump. 

Man oh man, religion and politics in one post.....

I’m going to paraphrase here because I known you don’t want bible verses quoted to you. Jesus said if we (me) are not willing to proclaim Jesus berfore men, he will not proclaim us before the Father . Christians believe that Jesus intercedes for us on judgement day and his sacrifice on the cross covers our sin debt. So we are willing to take the criticism that comes with proclaiming our beliefs even if it ultimately falls on deaf ears.

[Robert]

I have to say that the election of Trump as our president is something I consider a miracle.

 I know it may upset some but, he has come in and Soros has complained that all his plans are destroyed the NWO is set back and we will see major prosecutions soon.

If for no other reason than Hillary was 75 percent the favored winner this is a miracle.

So we have politics and religion in one post 

[Serk]

Also known as Pascal's Wager.

My counter to it is if you believe and you're wrong, and you've been worshiping the WRONG deity, then when you die you'll be punished even harsher than someone who never picked a deity to worship at all.

You are right to illustrate the offensiveness of worshipping the wrong deity, but not acknowledging the Creator Of All, His attributes and His deeds, is just as offensive, if not more so.  The first four of the Ten Commandments are about fidelity to Him, showing Him true reverence, and acknowledging His role as creator of all.

The Biblical term for worshipping the wrong god is idolatry.  Wrapped up in the concept of idolatry is:
worshipping something/someone other than our Creator God,
giving something else a higher importance or priority than God,
attributing God's deeds and/or unique attributes to something/someone other than God,
assuming prerogatives that God reserves for Himself alone.

By "never picking a deity," you a not acknowledging the One True God, and in essence committing idolatry.  You are worshipping yourself by assuming upon yourself God's prerogative of determining what is truth.  By declaring that the universe was not created, but was rather entirely the result of natural processes, you are worshipping the universe by declaring the created to be the creator.

So, by "never picking a deity," one is, in fact, picking a deity, that is, himself.

I understand and respect that in your faith you've picked the right deity, but that's a big assumption, to me... There have been many deities throughout human history, many actively worshiped today, to assume you picked the correct one, to me, is a bit of a stretch.

I've tried many faiths, including a few flavors of Christianity, and they all left me feeling hollow and empty. There was nothing there for me. I'm happy where I am now.

Peace be with you.

...sincerely.

[Robert]

Idolatry, really, What a way to win friends and influence enemies to tell them they are adulterous. Why dont you just come out and tell them they are going to hell and repent. 

I like Serk, he has a great family, does fun stuff, a wicked wit and he has managed to make for himself a good life. Discussions about Idolatry is not going to give him a warm and fuzzy feeling about anyone especially Christians. If I were him I would be saying, exactly why I have my fill of those sob's. I get the feeling he knows very well what the Bible says. He is patient with Christians and a brother on the board and it would be nice to cut him some slack also regardless of what is said. Win a person as a friend then maybe they will want to know who you serve.

He is only respecting your beliefs by his kindness and respect of others, how about going a step above and giving him the same respect?
 

 

[Serk]

Idolatry, really, What a way to win friends and influence enemies to tell them they are adulterous. Why dont you just come out and tell them they are going to hell and repent.  

I like Serk, he has a great family, does fun stuff, a wicked wit and he has managed to make for himself a good life. Discussions about Idolatry is not going to give him a warm and fuzzy feeling about anyone especially Christians. If I were him I would be saying, exactly why I have my fill of those sob's. I get the feeling he knows very well what the Bible says. He is patient with Christians and a brother on the board and it would be nice to cut him some slack also regardless of what is said. Win a person as a friend then maybe they will want to know who you serve.

He is only respecting your beliefs by his kindness and respect of others, how about going a step above and giving him the same respect?  

  

I appreciate your comments, but I took no offense to his comments and already consider Gryphon Rider (And most everyone else here) as friends, I hope the feeling is mutual...

And while I do appreciate any attempt to bring me or any non-believer into the fold is meant in the best interests, even dare I say it, out of love, my heart has been hardened at this point (Hebrews 3:8.)

If I wasn't willing to discuss such matters in a friendly, amicable matter, I wouldn't be opening this thread.

I was raised Christian, my leaving of the flock has broken my mother's heart, to this day. I've been tempted to fake it just for her sake but it's just not there for me, I can't fake it. I tried.

[Robert]

Serk with God all things are possible, prayers of anyone especially a mother are never in vain and have power. Timing is everything, faking it is pointless and draining. Curiosity though is a valuable trait when it comes to the Lord. Moses was curious and looked at the Burning bush maybe someday you will have a burning bush experience. 

[Gryphon Rider]

Idolatry, really, What a way to win friends and influence enemies to tell them they are adulterous. Why dont you just come out and tell them they are going to hell and repent.  

I like Serk, he has a great family, does fun stuff, a wicked wit and he has managed to make for himself a good life. Discussions about Idolatry is not going to give him a warm and fuzzy feeling about anyone especially Christians. If I were him I would be saying, exactly why I have my fill of those sob's. I get the feeling he knows very well what the Bible says. He is patient with Christians and a brother on the board and it would be nice to cut him some slack also regardless of what is said. Win a person as a friend then maybe they will want to know who you serve.

He is only respecting your beliefs by his kindness and respect of others, how about going a step above and giving him the same respect?

As you can see from Serk's response to you, he is a big boy and received my message in the spirit it was given: with concern for his eternal destiny, and with the assumption that he will understand that my reasoning starts with information he has already given about himself, rather than a new accusation based on my assumptions of his motivations.

I have a couple of points in reply to your rebuke:

1. Idolatry ≠ adultery.

2. You seem to be under the impression that making someone aware of how their actions or attitudes fall short of God's standard is disrespectful and/or unloving.  You seem to think that the way to attract someone to God is to avoid talking about sin and God's judgement and the requirement for repentance.

When the rich young ruler came to Christ asking what he must do to be saved (Matthew 19, Mark 10, Luke 18), Jesus quickly brought his attention to his idolatry, his love of possessions.  Would you have told Jesus to cut him some slack?

In Peter's first sermon, to those who were mocking believers who were displaying the miraculous gift of speaking in languages they did not previously know, the thing that dramatically impacted the crowd was when he pointed out their complicity in the crucifixion of Christ (Acts 2:36-41).  Would you have said to Peter, "Ssshhh... you need to be friends with them before you get into that nasty stuff!"

When Jesus said, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.  For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few (Matthew 7:13-14)," would you have said, "Don't say that!  This talk of destruction is pushing them away!  By saying the way of eternal life is narrow and difficult and hard to find; you are taking away their hope and comfort!"?

No one gets saved without first being convinced of their own sinfulness and worthiness of judgement, then turning away from their sin towards Christ, willing to give up all that they are and have to receive all that He provides.

[Robert]

No one gets saved without first being convinced of their own sinfulness and worthiness of judgement, then turning away from their sin towards Christ, willing to give up all that they are and have to receive all that He provides.

Its your/our job once they know they have a need to tell them what will fill that need. You cannot create the need nor can you fill the need we can only point them to the one that can fill the need.

The rich young ruler came to Christ asking, he realized a need and was pointed how to fulfill it. 

As for the sermon it was this

For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
Act 2:16  but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17  'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

He told them they crucified Christ but testified to who He is.

What he didn't do is say your going to hell and unless you accept Jesus then there is no hope and since you put Him to death your really in trouble. 


I always think about dog training, trainers give the dogs treats to do what they want. Jesus performed healings so He gave the people more than a treat, unless people see a plus they will not want to come.

[The emperor has no clothes]

This thread was much more interesting when it was about people’s miracles.  ???

[Wizzard]

yeah,, I thought it would be a miracle if it remained on topic

[The emperor has no clothes]

yeah,, I thought it would be a miracle if it remained on topic

[3fan4life]

Sometimes we Christians are our own worst enemies.

I've never understood the people that think the best way to lead someone to The Cross is to make them afraid of going to Hell.

A while back I was sitting on a bench in the mall watching my grand daughter as she played in the play area.

A gentleman came up and handed me a New Testament Bible.

I thought about handing it back and telling him that I didn't need it.

Instead I just took it and said thank you.

As the man walked away he commented to me that I needed to "change my ways" before it was too late.

This was the first and only thing that he had said to me at this point.

I called him back over to me and politely tried to explain to him that he shouldn't just assume that other people aren't Christians and that they aren't saved.

My comments fell upon deaf ears, he even went to the point of telling me that he didn't believe that I was saved and stormed off mad.

There were three Muslim women sitting on a bench across from me watching their children play.

I almost called him back again to tell him that he had not offered them a Bible, but I decided not to stir the pot.  



Love, Acceptance and Truth is the best way to lead someone to the Cross.

As Christians, We should love people as they are, accept them as they are and give them the truth about Jesus.

As Christians, We should not judge or condemn others.

As Christians, We should live our lives in a manner that allows non believers to see that there is something different about us.

As Christians we should live our lives in a manner that makes the non believers among us seek us out and ask us about what it is that makes us different.

Then they will be open to receiving the message of The Gospel.

[Wizzard]

Here,, this will lighten things up and give you some religion at the same time.
My cousin has a blues band and made a video. He rides the MC and sings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBblAQkJ7jQ

[Gryphon Rider]

Robert and 3fan4life, a couple of questions:

1.  When someone is saved, what exactly are they saved from?

2.  Is repentance, i.e. turning away from sin, required for salvation?

BTW, I know what my answers to these questions are, but I'm interested to know yours.

[Gavin_Sons]

This must be the VRCC bible study thread.

[Gryphon Rider]

This thread was much more interesting when it was about people’s miracles.  ???

yeah,, I thought it would be a miracle if it remained on topic

This must be the VRCC bible study thread.

I think most of the people who wanted to post messages relating to the original topic already have.  Those who aren't interested in what this thread has turned into are welcome to stop following it.  I, personally, am very interested in discussing all things theological, especially when the participants are sincere in their comments, far more so than discussing things political.

[The emperor has no clothes]

This thread was much more interesting when it was about people’s miracles.  ???

yeah,, I thought it would be a miracle if it remained on topic

This must be the VRCC bible study thread.

I think most of the people who wanted to post messages relating to the original topic already have.  Those who aren't interested in what this thread has turned into are welcome to stop following it.  I, personally, am very interested in discussing all things theological, especially when the participants are sincere in their comments, far more so than discussing things political.

It’s nothing personal. But, you are going to get the same stuff out of Robert that you have for the last 8 years.

[Robert]

I think most of the people who wanted to post messages relating to the original topic already have.  Those who aren't interested in what this thread has turned into are welcome to stop following it.  I, personally, am very interested in discussing all things theological, especially when the participants are sincere in their comments, far more so than discussing things political.

   

Robert and 3fan4life, a couple of questions:

1.  When someone is saved, what exactly are they saved from?

2.  Is repentance, i.e. turning away from sin, required for salvation?

BTW, I know what my answers to these questions are, but I'm interested to know yours.

 Jesus did not make it a requirement to ask for forgiveness first to be healed. In a sinners prayer is a knowing of sin in our lives but its the work of spirit that gets us to understand what that is and what that means.

This below is from Billy Graham and says it all easier than I could write it.

What is repentance? It might be well to notice first what it is not.

First, repentance is not penance. Penance is the voluntary suffering of punishment for sin and does not necessarily involve a change of character or conduct. People who lie on a bed of spikes or throw themselves headlong on the ground are doing penance, but this act does not mean that their guilt has been absolved.

Second, repentance is not remorse. Judas was remorseful over his sin of betrayal of the Son of God, but his shallow regret led to suicide instead of to God, because remorse is not true repentance.

Third, repentance is not self-condemnation. You may hate yourself for your sinfulness, but self-condemnation only opens wider the wounds of guilt and despair. We should hate our sins, not ourselves. Hate your false ways, hate your vain thoughts, hate your evil passions, hate your lying, hate your covetousness, hate your greed, but do not hate yourself. Self-hatred leads to self-destruction, and it is wrong to destroy that which was created in God’s image. Repentance is not self-condemnation.

Then what is repentance? Repentance is not a word of weakness but a word of power and action. It is not a self-effacing emotion, but a word of heroic resolve. It is an act that breaks the chains of captive sinners and sets heaven to singing.

The Bible says, “There will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance” (Luke 15:7, NKJV).

There are three elements in genuine repentance. First, there is conviction. You must know what is right before you can know what is wrong. If you get on the wrong road, you will never know it until you have some knowledge of the right road. You stray off the highway, and first you miss the familiar markings, the customary scenery, and then suddenly the conviction strikes you that you have lost your way. There can be no turning back unless first there is a conviction that you are going the wrong way.

Spiritual conviction is like that. It is a signpost planted in the heart saying, “Stop. Look. Listen! Danger ahead!” The Spirit of God, your conscience and your better judgment all join to warn, “Detour! Change! You’re on the wrong road!” If you have this conviction, be thankful. God is waving the red flag, directing you to a proper path. Before men and women can come to the cross of Christ and have their sins forgiven, they must be convicted of their sins, and that convicting work is done by the Holy Spirit upon the soul.

The second element of true repentance is contrition. The Bible says, “The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves such as have a contrite spirit” (Psalm 34:18, NKJV). Contrition, or “godly sorrow,” as it is called in 2 Corinthians 7:10, is not a shallow sentiment nor empty emotion. It is a sincere regret over past sins and an earnest desire to walk in a new path of righteousness.

Peter, that rugged man who meant so well and erred so often, when he denied his Lord “went out and wept bitterly” (Matthew 26:75). He was never more lovable nor more admirable than when he stood there alone, apart from the crowd, with his frame trembling as the hot tears of contrition ran down his cheeks. In his heart was a noble resolve to live for the One who would die for him. Brokenness, with its godly sorrow for sin, is the second step toward true repentance.

Third, repentance carries with it the idea of changing–changing your mind, changing your attitude, changing your ways. The Bible says, “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation” (2 Corinthians 7:10, NKJV). If we are truly repentant, our will is brought into action and we will make a reversal of direction. And God, seeing that we are in earnest, gives us the gift of eternal life.

God has given the Lord Jesus Christ to die on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. God has raised Him from the dead. That provides the ground of our salvation. The Holy Spirit acts upon our dead souls. That is God’s first step in convicting. God even helps us to repent. We become so contrite over our sins that we decide to change our way of living.
End:

This is the way people come to the Lord not through the demand of man but the love and Spirit of God since they already feel something is missing in their lives and dont know what that missing piece is all by the work of the Spirit. Some are very broken, some know there is a missing piece, some want something better, some need love, and the needs are endless and reasons people come to the Lord. Some men such as myself get ourselves in such a spot we finally ask for help from a God we didn't really know thinking He is the only one that can save us out of our mess we made. But no man can put this on another mans heart to call on God its in a mans heart by the spirit and is between man and God. We only are the ones who have been there and have the answer to who is calling them and testify that HE CAN do what He says HE can do.


Co 2:11  No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. 
1Co 2:12  And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 
1Co 2:13  When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. 
1Co 2:14  But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 
1Co 2:15  Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. 
1Co 2:16  For, “Who can know the LORD’s thoughts? Who knows enough to teach him?” But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ. 

Joh 6:44  For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. 
Joh 6:45  As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 

The Holy Spirit will lead us to the ones that will accept the Lord. He will also tell us what to say to the ones that He is working on maybe to plant a seed in them so someone will sow, the Spirit will tell you this and show you this because its His work.

Jesus did not heal or save everyone, He walked by many.

1Co 3:6  I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. 
1Co 3:7  It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. 

In closing When we are in a spot to accept the Lord it was by the work of the Spirit and with the idea that people are being shown maybe a way out of difficulty or maybe a hard spot. Its by this lifeline and compassion that people come, not by telling them the obvious that they have a problem. Many cannot grasp the depth of the lifeline they are being thrown. Some try to grasp but never seem to come to the true understanding of God as everything. Either way no one in the natural can understand the concepts of sin, spiritual blessings, God, its all foolish to them. So any talk of their negative condition to them is wasted and maybe hurtful unless directed by God's Spirit. If we are truly a lifeline then we should be just that and reflect that lamp on a table, showing Gods blessings and ready to answer where our hope has come from.

[semo97]

I'll give you a story following the thread. Huey choppers do not fly up side down, on there side and can not make a loop they crash and burn.. This was Vietnam, I was a member of a scout team, crew chief of a loch chopper and gunner when flying. When not flying most of the time it was a red x for parts needed. I would gun or crew a huey for one of the crew members. I hated being around camp. I was gunning one day and flying at 2000 over this old bombed out air strip that had an old shell of a C130 at the end and a small Artillery battery there. You do not fly over it that is bad carma. Well the pilot did not know or just wasn't thinking. There was some wig officer with us and wanted to go down to the LZ.. Our pilot said coming right and I sad clear this way and he turned all right. I came on and said your turning too much, to late. Not a rotor sound and we were falling, all I could see was earth coming very fast. I came on the com and said you justed killed us, no response. What a way to die, human error worse then a bullet. Finally at about 500 feet the chopper started shaking and finally pulled out of it. There was some divine intervention there, hueys do not fly on there side. The pilot got out said no one say anything he shook so bad and white as a sheet. It is one of those times that you have no time to reflect on your life. The old saying around camp was when the jesus nut comes off that holds the rotor blades on the mast you just bend over and kiss it good by. My biggest fear of dieing was human error and mechanical failure. Being in battle takes on a different outlook or mental frame of mind. I crashed twice and never thought of divine intervention then only that one time.

[Robert]

The Healing at the Pool on the Sabbath

Joh 5:5  One of the men lying there had been sick for thirty-eight years.
Joh 5:6  When Jesus saw him and knew he had been ill for a long time, he asked him, “Would you like to get well?”
Joh 5:7  “I can’t, sir,” the sick man said, “for I have no one to put me into the pool when the water bubbles up. Someone else always gets there ahead of me.”
Joh 5:8  Jesus told him, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and walk!”
Joh 5:9  Instantly, the man was healed! He rolled up his sleeping mat and began walking! But this miracle happened on the Sabbath,

Joh 5:14  But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, “Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you.”
Joh 5:15  Then the man went and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had healed him.
Joh 5:16  So the Jewish leaders began harassing Jesus for breaking the Sabbath rules.

Jesus had compassion on the man since he had no friends to put him in the pool

Jesus healed the man and forgave him of his sins only asking him would you like to be healed.

The man was told by the religious leaders he was wrong

Jesus found him and said sin no more.

I see no talk of theology I only see compassion, the religious talked theology.

[3fan4life]

Robert and 3fan4life, a couple of questions:

1.  When someone is saved, what exactly are they saved from?

2.  Is repentance, i.e. turning away from sin, required for salvation?

BTW, I know what my answers to these questions are, but I'm interested to know yours.

I debated whether to answer you within this thread, send you a PM or start another thread.

I have decided to answer here, but I do think that if this becomes a drawn out thing we should start another thread.

#1.  When someone is saved, what exactly are they saved from?

When saved a person is saved from eternal damnation, (i.e. Hell).

However, if someone doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell can you really get them to accept salvation in order to not go to Hell ?

I believe that the best and maybe only way to get a true non-believer to accept Jesus is to show them the love of Jesus.

#2.  Is repentance, i.e. turning away from sin, required for salvation?

No, it is not.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

There are NO qualifiers to this verse.

Nothing is required except to Believe and Accept.

A famous TV preacher once said that, "The problem with Christians is that they try to clean the fish before they've caught it."

"We", cannot change or save anyone, only the Holy Spirit can do that.

What will become evident when someone is Saved is the works of the Spirit.


To quote Billy Graham:

First, the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of our sin. “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8, NKJV). He uses a mother’s prayers, or a tragic experience, or a pastor’s sermon, or some other experience to convict us of sin and of our need to run our lives over to Jesus Christ. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. He points to us and says, “You are a sinner. You need to repent.”

Second, the Holy Spirit gives new life. The Bible says that we are dead in our sins and trespasses (see Ephesians 2:1). Our spirit within us, made in the image of God, is dead toward God. Mankind needs life. All have sinned. Therefore, all are dead toward God. The Holy Spirit gives us new life in Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “No one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again” (John 3:3). You must be born again.

And the Holy Spirit is the One who does the work of making you a born-again person. It is a supernatural act.

Paul said to Titus, “not by works of righteousness which we have done”–not all our good works and all the good things we have done are going to save us–“but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit”

[Willow]

I know this thread has gone off topic and drawn out longer than some would desire but I can't help correcting Mark's answers.

...
1.  When someone is saved, what exactly are they saved from?

2.  Is repentance, i.e. turning away from sin, required for salvation?
...

#1 When a person is saved (I have a problem with "when") he is saved from a life of sin and eternal damnation.  That's a bit of over simplification.  I tend to think of those being saved rather than those who have been saved.  The New Testament supports my view.  We, especially modern day American Christians, tend to think of a moment of salvation being a dramatic and possibly unique change in one's life.  The Scriptures indicate that God is active in the Christian's life before as well as after that moment the Christian becomes aware of and surrenders himself to his salvation.  We refer to such times as prevenient grace and growth in grace.  You'll notice the use of grace in both terms emphasizing it is not earned but gifted.  God knows the future and the past.  He works in accordance with His knowledge, not limited by ours.

#2 Is repentance required for salvation?  Absolutely!  The problem with using John 3:16 is our understanding of "believe in".  We focus on believe and unfortunately our concept of believe is to simply accept as true.  The intent of the term translated as believes in would draw perhaps closer to our modern English as places his faith in or gives his life to.  It's more than just believing that Jesus is the Son of God.  The New Testament elsewhere tells us even the demons believe that.  When does repentance take place or is it in steps over time or is it repeated as our awareness increases?  I'll leave that open as I've already expressed my unacceptance of a salvation moment.  Jesus himself repeatedly stated that without repentance we will not be given eternal life.  In another passage the Scriptures tell us that without holiness no man shall see the Lord.  Holiness, of course, is impossible without repentance.

The problem with using Billy Graham, a much to be admired evangelist, is that he was a committed Calvinist.  Calvinists mean well but they have some significant misinterpretations of the Scriptures.  So also do most Armenians because both sides are trying to make sense in simple terms what cannot be fully comprehended by human understanding.

[Wizzard]

So is Billy not saved because he is a Calvinist? We have so many labels and things that divide when all that I need to know is Jesus Christ and him Crucified and I can be saved.

[Chrisj CMA]

So is Billy not saved because he is a Calvinist? We have so many labels and things that divide when all that I need to know is Jesus Christ and him Crucified and I can be saved.

A religion never did and never will get someone to heaven.  Just the opposite, there will be thousands of Catholics, Baptists, Methodists you name it hell because they thought membership in their club (religion) of choice could save them.

On the other hand anyone of any faith background can come to a relationship with Jesus Christ through faith.  There will be people from all religions in heaven because they trusted in Christ not religion.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I know this thread has gone off topic and drawn out longer than some would desire but I can't help correcting Mark's answers.

...
1.  When someone is saved, what exactly are they saved from?

2.  Is repentance, i.e. turning away from sin, required for salvation?
...

#1 When a person is saved (I have a problem with "when") he is saved from a life of sin and eternal damnation.  That's a bit of over simplification.  I tend to think of those being saved rather than those who have been saved.  The New Testament supports my view.  We, especially modern day American Christians, tend to think of a moment of salvation being a dramatic and possibly unique change in one's life.  The Scriptures indicate that God is active in the Christian's life before as well as after that moment the Christian becomes aware of and surrenders himself to his salvation.  We refer to such times as prevenient grace and growth in grace.  You'll notice the use of grace in both terms emphasizing it is not earned but gifted.  God knows the future and the past.  He works in accordance with His knowledge, not limited by ours.

#2 Is repentance required for salvation?  Absolutely!  The problem with using John 3:16 is our understanding of "believe in".  We focus on believe and unfortunately our concept of believe is to simply accept as true.  The intent of the term translated as believes in would draw perhaps closer to our modern English as places his faith in or gives his life to.  It's more than just believing that Jesus is the Son of God.  The New Testament elsewhere tells us even the demons believe that.  When does repentance take place or is it in steps over time or is it repeated as our awareness increases?  I'll leave that open as I've already expressed my unacceptance of a salvation moment.  Jesus himself repeatedly stated that without repentance we will not be given eternal life.  In another passage the Scriptures tell us that without holiness no man shall see the Lord.  Holiness, of course, is impossible without repentance.

The problem with using Billy Graham, a much to be admired evangelist, is that he was a committed Calvinist.  Calvinists mean well but they have some significant misinterpretations of the Scriptures.  So also do most Armenians because both sides are trying to make sense in simple terms what cannot be fully comprehended by human understanding.

Armenians ?  ???

[Willow]

So is Billy not saved because he is a Calvinist? We have so many labels and things that divide when all that I need to know is Jesus Christ and him Crucified and I can be saved.

Please don't assume more than I said.  I believe Billy and millions of Calvinists are saved or being saved.  I stated the problem with taking Billy's interpretation of certain scriptures as authoritative.  I'm pretty sure there are few if any Christians who completely understand correctly the Scriptures in their entirety.

As to whether you are personally being saved, you and God know that.  I do not although I certainly hope so.  I do hope that when you accepted that Christ was crucified for your sins that you gave your life to Him and that He is and has been leading you into the Way everlasting.

[Willow]

So is Billy not saved because he is a Calvinist? We have so many labels and things that divide when all that I need to know is Jesus Christ and him Crucified and I can be saved.

A religion never did and never will get someone to heaven.  Just the opposite, there will be thousands of Catholics, Baptists, Methodists you name it hell because they thought membership in their club (religion) of choice could save them.

On the other hand anyone of any faith background can come to a relationship with Jesus Christ through faith.  There will be people from all religions in heaven because they trusted in Christ not religion.

I believe the question was addressed to me.

You've made the anti-religion false statement repeatedly.  One problem is that you mistake the terms religion and denomination.  Everyone who arrives in Heaven will be of the Christian religion.  There will, of course, be members of many if not all denominations in both groups, saved and unsaved.  The problem with those who are not saved is that they placed there hope in fulfilling the requirements of a particular church (little c) rather than in saving faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

A more important problem with your statement is that the Scriptures instruct us in what is true religion.  That instruction would be meaningless if we as Christians were not to be following true religion. 

[Wizzard]

I am pretty certain that those that make it to heaven will not be asked what church they attended. 

[DirtyDan]

Ohh SO many people in this world KNOW that their book MUST be right

I have lots of books.........

Dan

[Chrisj CMA]

So is Billy not saved because he is a Calvinist? We have so many labels and things that divide when all that I need to know is Jesus Christ and him Crucified and I can be saved.

A religion never did and never will get someone to heaven.  Just the opposite, there will be thousands of Catholics, Baptists, Methodists you name it hell because they thought membership in their club (religion) of choice could save them.

On the other hand anyone of any faith background can come to a relationship with Jesus Christ through faith.  There will be people from all religions in heaven because they trusted in Christ not religion.

I believe the question was addressed to me.

You've made the anti-religion false statement repeatedly.  One problem is that you mistake the terms religion and denomination.  Everyone who arrives in Heaven will be of the Christian religion.  There will, of course, be members of many if not all denominations in both groups, saved and unsaved.  The problem with those who are not saved is that they placed there hope in fulfilling the requirements of a particular church (little c) rather than in saving faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

A more important problem with your statement is that the Scriptures instruct us in what is true religion.  That instruction would be meaningless if we as Christians were not to be following true religion. 

True religion as defined by scripture is simply how we show Gods love to others. Religion provides a structure for that one is profitable if used correctly. However, works for the sake of works can never take the place of a relationship with Christ.

You can argue semantics all day long. Wizard had it right. God doesn’t care what Church (religion) you were. Only that Christ knew you and covered your sins

[Gryphon Rider]

I know this thread has gone off topic and drawn out longer than some would desire but I can't help correcting Mark's answers.

...
1.  When someone is saved, what exactly are they saved from?

2.  Is repentance, i.e. turning away from sin, required for salvation?
...

#1 When a person is saved (I have a problem with "when") he is saved from a life of sin and eternal damnation.  That's a bit of over simplification.  I tend to think of those being saved rather than those who have been saved.  The New Testament supports my view.  We, especially modern day American Christians, tend to think of a moment of salvation being a dramatic and possibly unique change in one's life.  The Scriptures indicate that God is active in the Christian's life before as well as after that moment the Christian becomes aware of and surrenders himself to his salvation.  We refer to such times as prevenient grace and growth in grace.  You'll notice the use of grace in both terms emphasizing it is not earned but gifted.  God knows the future and the past.  He works in accordance with His knowledge, not limited by ours.

#2 Is repentance required for salvation?  Absolutely!  The problem with using John 3:16 is our understanding of "believe in".  We focus on believe and unfortunately our concept of believe is to simply accept as true.  The intent of the term translated as believes in would draw perhaps closer to our modern English as places his faith in or gives his life to.  It's more than just believing that Jesus is the Son of God.  The New Testament elsewhere tells us even the demons believe that.  When does repentance take place or is it in steps over time or is it repeated as our awareness increases?  I'll leave that open as I've already expressed my unacceptance of a salvation moment.  Jesus himself repeatedly stated that without repentance we will not be given eternal life.  In another passage the Scriptures tell us that without holiness no man shall see the Lord.  Holiness, of course, is impossible without repentance.

The problem with using Billy Graham, a much to be admired evangelist, is that he was a committed Calvinist.  Calvinists mean well but they have some significant misinterpretations of the Scriptures.  So also do most Armenians because both sides are trying to make sense in simple terms what cannot be fully comprehended by human understanding.

Armenians ?  ???

Good catch.  Although Willow might mean Armenian (denonym for Armenia), I suspect he means Arminian, someone who generally agrees with the doctrines of Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius, and specifically the Five Articles of Remonstrance. These five articles were countered by the Canons of Dort, the substance of which are currently known as the "five points of Calvinism". The heart of the debate centres around the understanding of the Biblical concept of predestination.  Arminians believe that God predestined believers for salvation based on His foreknowledge of their response to the Gospel, while Calvinists believe that God predestined specific people (the elect) for salvation, then acts to accomplish the salvation of each who make up the elect.  Although I haven't studied Billy Graham's theology around the specifics of predestination, of the people who like to divide various Christian leaders into one camp or the other, most consider Graham to be more in agreement with the Arminian position.  I assume Willow has reasons to consider him more of a Calvinist.

So is Billy not saved because he is a Calvinist? We have so many labels and things that divide when all that I need to know is Jesus Christ and him Crucified and I can be saved.

A religion never did and never will get someone to heaven.  Just the opposite, there will be thousands of Catholics, Baptists, Methodists you name it hell because they thought membership in their club (religion) of choice could save them.

On the other hand anyone of any faith background can come to a relationship with Jesus Christ through faith.  There will be people from all religions in heaven because they trusted in Christ not religion.

I believe the question was addressed to me.

You've made the anti-religion false statement repeatedly.  One problem is that you mistake the terms religion and denomination.  Everyone who arrives in Heaven will be of the Christian religion.  There will, of course, be members of many if not all denominations in both groups, saved and unsaved.  The problem with those who are not saved is that they placed there hope in fulfilling the requirements of a particular church (little c) rather than in saving faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

A more important problem with your statement is that the Scriptures instruct us in what is true religion.  That instruction would be meaningless if we as Christians were not to be following true religion.  

True religion as defined by scripture is simply how we show Gods love to others. Religion provides a structure for that one is profitable if used correctly. However, works for the sake of works can never take the place of a relationship with Christ.

You can argue semantics all day long. Wizard had it right. God doesn’t care what Church (religion) you were. Only that Christ knew you and covered your sins

I don't think the differences between one's religion and denomination are semantic as far as salvation is concerned.  When one talks about various religions, he is talking about the distinctives between, for example, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.  One cannot be a faithful Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist, and believe in a salvific way what the Bible says about Christ and His work.  Someone can be a member of one of a huge variety of Christian denominations, and have a saving faith in Christ.

James 1:27:  Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

When James says, "Pure and undefiled religion is this..." he is not talking about different religious systems, i.e. one's religion, but is using "religion" in the sense of "devotion to the True God".  In other words, he is not saying that anyone of any religion is faithful to God the Father if he visits orphans, etc., but that one who claims to be faithful to God without compassion for others and without seeking to be pure, is not actually being faithful to God.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Thanks. I’ve never heard the term Arminian. I couldn’t figure how in the heck Armenians had anything to do with the subject. Now Azerbaijan’s I get. 

[Willow]

Thanks. I’ve never heard the term Arminian. I couldn’t figure how in the heck Armenians had anything to do with the subject. Now Azerbaijan’s I get.  

My mistake.  Sometimes I type too quickly and think too slowly.

[Wizzard]

Thanks. I’ve never heard the term Arminian. I couldn’t figure how in the heck Armenians had anything to do with the subject. Now Azerbaijan’s I get.  

My mistake.  Sometimes I type too quickly and think too slowly.

I wish I made as few of them as you do 

[Robert]

I have seen many talk religion but the question from Gryph was have you ever witnessed or experienced a bona fide miracle,

 So what about it Gryph, Have you? I dont see any post from you about the miracles the Lord has done for you.

 I am also curious why you posted this question.

These are a couple of ministries that have notable miracles happen in their services

Billy and Vickie Burns
https://billyburns.com/

Billy Burke World Outreach
http://billyburke.org/BillyBurke%E2%80%99sStory.aspx

Has anyone here ever had a prophesy spoken over their lives and had it come true?

Has anyone ever experienced the power of the Holy Spirit?

How many have gotten words from the Lord and had them come true?

You know it builds your faith when the Lord speaks to you, either through a prophesy, a word from someone, a knowing in your spirit and then it comes true. Or sometimes a peace about a situation comes over you as you go through it and builds your faith when you get through it, that the Master of the Universe spoke a word to you and it came true.

My friend, Gods servant with the gift of healing has a grandson that the doctors did not give much of a chance to live after he was born. He had a stroke, was anemic, and had a genetic disorder. My friend prayed and the Lord answered him and said his grandson would be healed that he would not die. Today years later is a healthy, happy child with the presence of the Lord on his life. It was a miracle he lived and even more so is healthy and happy. 

In the bible it talks about a 3 strand cord and it says its not easily broken.

My wife and I are 2 very different people and our marriage was put together by the Lord. At some other time I may go in more depth about this aspect, but for now I have another point I want to make. Do you have trouble sometimes getting your point across to your other half? Does it seem words sometimes get in the way of points to be made, Pray about it, your concerns that is. Let the Lord know and just wait and see what happens. In my marriage it never fails, I can be not happy about something and try to say something. When I do we seem to butt heads sometimes, but when I pray about it there is peace and things change. This is also another miracle since to be happy and peaceful with your wife is a great gift and not to have to argue is even a greater gift. God is concerned about every aspect of our lives, nothing and I mean nothing is to small to bring to a loving Father and ask for help. If you have not tried it, do, dont think God hears, ask and see what happens and when He answers either by a change in situation or a moving on your heart it will also build your faith.

Faith is not something that magically happens and its different for each person. But faith like love can be built up by experiences and time and knowing a person or your God. Each battle won, each situation conquered that has been submitted to God or prayed about look for Gods hand and rejoice when its resolved. God is always there in our lives so its not that God is not, its more we dont recognize His handy work in our lives that causes us to stumble. Once we look back and realize Gods work in a situation in our lives we begin to understand more and have more faith. Pray, look, listen, and expect and keep repeating Gods promises over a situation. 

[..]

Ohh SO many people in this world KNOW that their book MUST be right

I have lots of books.........

Dan

I used to until they got burnt.


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Chrisj CMA]

So is Billy not saved because he is a Calvinist? We have so many labels and things that divide when all that I need to know is Jesus Christ and him Crucified and I can be saved.

A religion never did and never will get someone to heaven.  Just the opposite, there will be thousands of Catholics, Baptists, Methodists you name it hell because they thought membership in their club (religion) of choice could save them.

On the other hand anyone of any faith background can come to a relationship with Jesus Christ through faith.  There will be people from all religions in heaven because they trusted in Christ not religion.

I believe the question was addressed to me.

You've made the anti-religion false statement repeatedly.  One problem is that you mistake the terms religion and denomination.  Everyone who arrives in Heaven will be of the Christian religion.  There will, of course, be members of many if not all denominations in both groups, saved and unsaved.  The problem with those who are not saved is that they placed there hope in fulfilling the requirements of a particular church (little c) rather than in saving faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

A more important problem with your statement is that the Scriptures instruct us in what is true religion.  That instruction would be meaningless if we as Christians were not to be following true religion.  

Im not going to get into this splitting hairs like any of us has all this completely figured out.

My point is this All religions are created by man.  They re all flawed..

The way to return to a right relationship with God through repentence and faith was designed by God.

Anyone from any denomination or any religion can come under conviction of their sin and come to know Christ as savior. No doubt their participation in whatever their religious practice used to be will now be changed.

Here's one question.  So you say a Catholic and a Baptist are simply different denominations.  No.  I grew up Catholic and converted to being a Christian. I chose to worship in Baptist churches because I feel comfortable there.  The two are separate religions

[Robert]

A lady I know who is a nurse comes into my business and we talk. She has the gift of healing and wants the Lord to use her in her gifts. She has a bubbly personality and quick wit and is observant. Well as she has sought the Lord in her gifts and wanted to be used she has seen many miracles in the hospital and dr's office. In fact it has gotten to the point that the doctors have been asking her to pray for the people. I have not heard to many of her stories but one lady in the hospital had terrible back pain, I don't know if that was all that was wrong with her but the doctor asked this nurse to pray for her and she went in asked if it was ok to pray for her and did so. After she was done she asked the lady, any back pain and the lady answered NO.

God is looking for those He can use.