US consumers aren't buying electric cars -

[Jess from VA]

My idea of a good battery powered car.

[..]

    kinda like I haven't had a child in school in bout 9 year yet I STILL pay school taxes. wunder HOW the road tax thingy will shake out with E Vs? My yearly tags here in Missouri ARE rather reasonable as is the dino fuel tax-well least ways fer the now! You Just KNOW "they" gotta recoup the tax losses from dino! Either way-WE THE PEOPLE-Are gonna take a HUGE Wallet hit! doncha just LUV gubmint involvement in OUR Everyday lives?   RIDE SAFE.

Yes the fuel tax thing will/could be a big deal.  If we go the all electric route or get a significant number of electric cars on the road, things will have to change.

How would they change??????   Well, in theory, the more you drive, the more gas you use, the more taxes you pay (assuming driving and buying gas in your state and yes there are Federal taxes).

So.....  electric cars will have to be mileage taxed.  How will that happen???? Two ways.  First the "honor system".  You report what you drive.  Second the car tracks how much you drive and reports to someone who then sends you a bill.  Guess that could include where you drive and your location at all times....    

BIG BROTHER Anyone.  

From the link below.

In order to compensate for this loss of revenue at the pump, 17 states have levied additional taxes on EVs specifically. In order to justify these new taxes, proponents have noted that EVs use public roads just as much as their gas-powered counterparts. EVs create traffic and contribute to road degradation, why shouldn't EV owners pay their fair share?

https://enrg.io/do-electric-vehicles-pay-road-tax/

Rapacious government will never give up its revenue stream.

I've written this here before.

UK Governments persuaded a LOT of drivers gas was bad, diesel was better.

A LOT of drivers made the switch when buying a car. Tax revenue went down because the diesel vehicles were going further per gallon so the bastid Govt raised the diesel tax.

Now the Govt is persuading idiots that diesel is bad, electricity better and many are once again making the switch because they seem to have the attention span of a goldfish.

People are stoopid and Govt takes advantage of that.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-shopping/fuel-duty

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812622/Road_fuel_consumption_and_the_UK_motor_vehicle_fleet.pdf

[scooperhsd]

Let me state that it would take one HELL of a big savings for me to switch from petroleum to electric, because the pollution stats won't be anything to crow about....

[hueco]

It takes too much coal to produce the electricity to recharge electric cars.

[Patrick]

I've just come across 3 more people that have paid $4500-5000 to have their garage wired for the charger !

One fellas monthly electric bill is $600. But everything he has is electric run. So he just had a new roof installed so he could have solar panels put up.

[Avanti]

So flip a switch and everything quits.

[hubcapsc]

I've just come across 3 more people that have paid $4500-5000 to have their garage wired for the charger !

One fellas monthly electric bill is $600. But everything he has is electric run. So he just had a new roof installed so he could have solar panels put up.

The most expensive Tesla home charger is $550. That electrician really saw your friends coming!

I live in The South and love my all electric home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCOU_fhTKKs

Looking forward to a woodstove one day, though...

-Mike

[Hook#3287]

I've just come across 3 more people that have paid $4500-5000 to have their garage wired for the charger !

One fellas monthly electric bill is $600. But everything he has is electric run. So he just had a new roof installed so he could have solar panels put up.

I see about 5-6 roof top solar systems every week.  I would never install one on my house.

Just like any other contractors, solar installers, some are good and some are very very bad.

[carolinarider09]

So I did a search.   Here is the link (below)

Its dated December 10, 2021

Some take aways, yes you can get a charger for around $600.

At the bottom of the article it discusses the more "expensive" options

A summer summary from the article

Tesla Home Charging Options
"Trickle charging" on a normal electricity outlet
Faster charging on a 240V dryer outlet
Charging two Teslas on one 240V outlet
Installing a Tesla home charger
Installing a Tesla Supercharger at your home (just kidding)
Tesla Home Charging Station Cost
Rebates & Tax Credits

Advantages of Charging at Home

Again, from the article:

Charging times

Option 1 120 VAC just plug it in.  Charging times 3 to 4 miles per hour
Option 2 Using a Dryer outlet (might required some hardware) Charging speed 15 to 30 miles per hour Cost $0 (if you have a free dryer outlet) or $499 if you don't
Option 3 Charging two Teslas on one Dryer outlet (same charging speed) Cost $450
Option 4 Install a level 2 Tesla charger in garage.  This cost is variable (between $1,000 and $5,000) because you have to add the 240VAC circuit to your existing wiring and then still purchase the charging module.  Charging speed 44 miles per hour

And the cool thing about this.  Rebates & Tax Credits

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that there are various utility rebates out there (even up to 50% of the cost of the charger as well as installation) and there's the 30% federal tax credit available for EV charging stations and installation (up to $1000 combined).

That means you get to let your friends and family help pay for your charging station.  I know its not much but its the thought that counts.

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/12/10/the-costs-of-installing-a-home-charger-for-your-tesla/

Edited to correct typo

[hubcapsc]

Current headline:

Driving a Tesla Off the Lot Can Make It Go Up in Value

Apparently flippers are doing with Teslas what they were doing with
Harleys in the 1990s...

-Mike "US Consumers are doing whatever they can to buy Teslas..."

[MarkT]

My shop is wired for 240v.  Powers compressor, powdercoat oven, welders.  Use it to backfeed the panel from a generator, with power outages.  I don't envision it EVER charging cars here.  But I wonder if I can get a tax break retroactively for installing it...  Of course it's been 20 years.  I'm a GREAT visionary.  Yeah, that's it.  Got my tarot cards dog eared.  

[MarkT]

I'm thinking a hydrogen fueled hybrid might be a soln to green concerns, range, battery life (lithium depletion etc) and battery charging.  There is already a fuel infrastructure worldwide for gasoline - might be able to switch to hydrogen.  Seems the biggest issue with this would be extracting the hydrogen (from water, natural gas now) economically.   I think there are smart folks working on that.  Using wind turbines to use electrolysis to extract H2 from water would be a way to store wind energy as a portable fuel.

[hubcapsc]

It is well know that not everyone thinks Elon Musk has a clue.
(I'm not sure why, though)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFPnT-DCBVs

On the hydrogen fuel cell wiki:

  - In 2016, Samsung "decided to drop fuel cell-related business projects, as the outlook of the market isn't good"

At epa.gov (I know some people here hate hate hate electric cars):

- Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles are similar to electric vehicles in that they use an electric motor instead of an
   internal combustion engine to power the wheels.

I don't put much stock in the "electric cars won't work because there's no place to charge them" argument.
But this map on energy.gov shows where the hydrogen fuel stations are, so I guess that would have to be
a problem for some folks:

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html#/find/nearest?fuel=HY

If I wanted to live off the grid, I'd want solar panels and batteries. And I'd for sure burn wood.
I like electric because I think it works and it works now. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to live
off the grid anywhere near Gunnison Colorado or any other place that's going to be -12 today.

-Mike

[MarkT]

This video is a comparison of the efficiencies involved between battery and hydrogen powered electrric vehicles.  Basically batteries win for now on that score but hydrogen has faster fillups and more range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY

[Patrick]

These folks that are paying that high cost of charger installation are told the home has to upgraded to at least 200 amp service. Most places around here are 125-150. I can't see where the service upgrade should cost that much. Plus I think most of their carports/garages are only 120v.
Regardless, I think they're getting ripped off. I'll sit back and see what they have to say after a few years.

[Jess from VA]

These folks that are paying that high cost of charger installation are told the home has to upgraded to at least 200 amp service. Most places around here are 125-150.

Every home in my old division was a 6 screw in fuse 100 amp service.

Commonly referred to as a "heavy up," to a 200 amp circuit breaker box, mine (20+ years ago) ran me over $2.2 K, but included a number of extras, including running outside conduit for the main feed from my side house peak (from the pole) around the back where the box is (having just paid to vinyl side my house, I did not want another droopy line nailed over my new siding), and changing a bunch of circuits around (from the box inside the house), and adding a bunch of plugs outdoors (GFCI) and indoors, and running an outdoor four prong twist box to backpower the box by outdoor generator), and running a 220 line out to my deck for a Jacuzzi.

I bet the price for this would be close to double today.

[carolinarider09]

That was my experience from previous homes so when I build the house we are now living in, I installed a 200 AMP panel. 

But, even though I have two open breaker spots, I could could not easily install another 220 VAC point of power supply.   The reason is "breaker alignment".  The two spare slots are on the bottom left and right and, if I remember correctly, to supply 220 I would need to have the breakers on the same side.

Yes, I could rewire two of the breakers to allow this but then I would also have to find a way of running a new 220 VAC supply line to the underside of the house.  Then I would have to find a way to get the 220 from there to the detached garage.  And since the garage is build ton a concrete slab, this would not be that easy.  Except, in my case, I did run some additional grey PVC piping from the house to the garage.  So......

Oh and yes, since the garage is powered from the house, I could re-wire the distribution panel in the garage (which I place there just in case) to provide the needed 220 VAC.  But that is the exception. 

In summary, most folks would not be able to provide the necessary second 220 VAC power supply to rapidly charge an electric vehicle from existing wiring. 

[Jess from VA]

But I will never buy an electric-battery car, and would not accept one for free (other than to sell/flip).

So I don't have to worry about charging one.

And I won't be giving up my gas blower either, until they pull my cold dead finger from the throttle trigger.

[scooperhsd]

That is "easy work" . I may not be a trained electrician, but I understand this well enough. In fact - I plan on replacing a subpanel within the next month.

[old2soon]

That is "easy work" . I may not be a trained electrician, but I understand this well enough. In fact - I plan on replacing a subpanel within the next month.

          2 RULES when working around electricity. Keep 1 hand in yer pocket! Do NOT wear metal gloves!  RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

And keeping one foot in a bucket of water is not a safety precaution.

[SPOFF]

All new cars could become electric, especially if NO cars are being sold. Consider a world where President Child-Molester lets inflation get out of control, say later in 2022. At 3,500% inflation a new car will quickly cost billions of dollars. Someone making $4 million an hour at McDonald's won't be able to afford a new car. Most of you are driving the last vehicle you will ever own. And when the Nav unit dies in 10 years you'll be forced to junk it. Then you get to walk (all the horses would already have been eaten).

[valkmc]

This video is a comparison of the efficiencies involved between battery and hydrogen powered electrric vehicles.  Basically batteries win for now on that score but hydrogen has faster fillups and more range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY

I used to work with an engineer in our district who spent her summers working with Toyota on their Hydrogen car. She loved it and she got to drive it from state to state so it could be shown off to politicians. However, she told me she did not think it would be practical for a long time.  It got 80 MPG but she said the fill up was north of $500.

[carolinarider09]

Just out of curiosity, what was the "range" of that particular H2 powered car?

[Serk]

Just out of curiosity, what was the "range" of that particular H2 powered car?

The Toyota Mirai, which has been available in the US since 2015, with a listed range around 300 miles, but newer 2nd generation version has gotten as much as 845 miles...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

[MarkT]

I noted when looking this stuff up Japan is putting a lot of effort into hydrogen vehicle work.  If THEY are working on it, you know there will be some good results.  I'll just wait and see what happens.  I already said, my recently acquired 4Runner is probably my last car.  But if I live long enough, maybe...

[carolinarider09]

I see, I was thinking if something different.  This is an electric car using the notion of hydrogen producing heat and using the heat in something like a "thermocouple" to generate electricity which can be used to power the car's motor or charge a battery. 

Still has a battery....   

[Jess from VA]

Jet engine cars. 

Still use fossil.  But cut way down on tailgaters. 

[carolinarider09]

Naaaa....  If you are going to go electric because on a thermocouple type of electric generator, the only way to go is nuclear. 

Last a long time, safest way of producing energy in the US and NASA's been using it for 60 years for space flight. 

[F6Dave]

If even half of America's vehicle fleet is electrified in the next decade or two, does anyone really believe we'll have enough electricity to charge all those new EVs?  Where will all the additional electricity come from?

All over the planet energy demand is surging.  Nations like China and India aren't just adding coal power plants, but nuclear plants too.  This month, for the first time in history, oil consumption is expected to top 100 million barrels per day.  Thanks to hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies wind and solar generation is also increasing.  But they're not playing the role most people believe:  wind and solar provides about 3% of global energy, and at current rates of growth they might displace fossil fuels in about 1,000 years.  Fossil fuels contribute over 80%, virtually unchanged in 30 years.

Now look at the US.  We're shutting down coal, nuclear, and even some natural gas power plants, hoping wind and solar will fill the void.  But those 'renewables' are running into serious headwinds.  Prices of materials like lithium, cobalt, nickel, and copper are skyrocketing.  Lithium is up several hundred percent.  And people are discovering that 'clean' energy can be hideous.  So hundreds communities are rising up to fight wind projects like one to build 3,000 massive turbines offshore in New England, and 'industrial scale' solar farms like one in Virginia that would clear cut thousands of acres of forest.  These groups are having an impact, forcing the rejection of over 300 projects from Maine to Hawaii. 

Thanks to America's policies, blackouts have tripled in frequency since 2015.  If we stay on this path it can only get worse.  So back to the original question:  if we add millions of new EVs, will we have enough electricity to charge them?

[..]

Solyndra 

[old2soon]

          WHEN da gubmint is involved ANY project Will come in WAY Over budget And underperform by at least 90% or worse. And when politician's lips are moving And they makin sounds!!  RIDE SAFE.

[..]

https://thedriven.io/2022/02/08/ev-charger-wars-anger-and-death-threats-as-frustrated-owners-unplug-electric-cars/?fbclid=IwAR3hELc9ji1xtmyzSfc7KXBwz-IRBts53eKd9G4ZesrW6wNzFhMNrKdQoXI


EV charger wars! Anger and death threats as frustrated owners unplug electric cars

[Jess from VA]

And I don't want heating and cooling and refrigeration in my house rationed to 3 days a week so people can charge their cars.  Talk about anger and death threats.

[..]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10497735/U-S-5-bln-plan-fund-EV-charging-network.html




Pete Buttigieg says electric cars shouldn't be a 'luxury' and unveils Biden's $5 BILLION plan to put charging stations every 50 miles on interstates by 2030 - despite as little as 7% of Americans owning EVs


Do they even try to think a plan through or is it just throw mud at the wall and see what sticks?

[carolinarider09]

Lets think about that, a pull off for charging every 50 miles on the interstate highways.  The same highways that are in need of major repairs. 

Where is the power going to come from.  Oh I know, more power lines.   What do you do while you wait to charge (at least 30 minutes, maybe hours)???????  Will there be "rest areas"?????????? 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Out of your pocket and my pocket and totally unnecessary.....

[carolinarider09]

So, do a search and see what the Federal Government did to help out Henry Ford.  It did not build gas stations. 

What the FEDs did was to allocate funds for roadways. 

Since the roads already exist, there is no need to build these charging stations at our expense.   NO NEED!!!!

https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-american-roads-4077442

The first drive-in service station opened in Pennsylvania on this day in 1913. American motorists had been able to pump their own gas at filling stations since 1905, but those were little more than a pump at the curbside. Before that, motorists bought gasoline in cans from places like pharmacies and blacksmith shops and filled up themselves. With the opening of this service station at the corner of Baum Boulevard and St. Clair Street in Pittsburgh, a cultural institution was born.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/short-picture-history-gas-stations-180967337/

Note:  I did not read the whole article but I do believe it supports the notion that the Federal Government should not be helping provide fueling stations for EVs.

[Jess from VA]

Do they even try to think a plan through or is it just throw mud at the wall and see what sticks?

More like monkeys in the zoo throwing their sh!t at people.

Except it's OUR money, not theirs.

[Jersey mike]

Here's more money right out the window or flushed down the toilet. However you phrase it, this administration is burning money so fast it's nuts.

Now,to be honest I have no idea on a couple things with electric cars. The first is how fast do they typically recharge from say 1/4 battery and how doom they charge for the electric? Kilowatt per minute? What do you do when your car is charging in an empty lot with no security?


https://www.nj.com/politics/2022/02/feds-sending-15m-to-nj-to-build-electric-car-charging-stations.html

" New Jersey is getting $15.4 million from Washington this year to help finance a network of electric car charging stations."

"The funds are part of President Joe Biden's $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure law, and they are part of the administration's efforts to reduce automobile emissions by moving toward electric vehicles."

"The legislation includes $5 billion over five years for a nationwide network of stations to help fund Biden's goal of having 500,000 stations by 2030."

" Gov. Phil Murphy has moved to increase the number of electric vehicles in New Jersey as he pivots to clean energy. Murphy has called for 330,000 electric vehicles registered in the state by 2025, though at the end of 2020, there were only about 41,000 registered, according to the state Department of Environmental Protection."

"A state law calls for at least 75 fast-charging stations along major roads, with a maximum of 25 miles between stations."

"New Jersey also can compete later for a share of another $2.5 billion, which is designed to additional access to charging stations, including in underserved and rural communities."

[Avanti]

I wonder if the 41,000 electric vehicles registered includes hybrid vehicles which do not need charging stations.