Road rage shootout

[RP#62]

Here's some other opinions.  This was the opinion of the court in the DC gun ban case:

CONCLUSION
As demonstrated above, the BC and VPC amici's briefs are riddled with inaccuracies and
mischaracterizations of the historical record, including:

Using Anti-federalist criticism of federal power in the original Constitution as a
basis for interpreting the Second Amendment, which was authored by a leading
Federalist opponent of such criticism, James Madison, who specifically explained
that the Second Amendment did not affect federal power over the militia.

Mistakenly asserting that the Second Amendment guaranteed state power (vis-avis
federal) over the militia – despite consistent Supreme Court rulings that
federal power over the militia remains plenary, with state power existing only
insofar as the federal government has not acted.

Disregarding the unanimous belief of the Founders that there is a basic human
right to possess arms for defense of self, home, and family.

Inaccurately depicting the "militia" as troops or soldiers rather than the general
populace despite the fact that existing militia laws required individual members of
the general populace to be armed and despite the fact that every definition the
Founders gave of the "militia" used terms such as "the whole body of the people."

Assuming from the existence of the militia clause that the rights clause does not
mean what it says – i.e., that there is some conflict between guaranteeing
individuals a right to arms and guaranteeing the arms of the militia which were, in
fact, the personal arms of the militia's members.

Purporting to identify a discrepancy – which no contemporary saw – between the
wording of the Second Amendment's "right of the people" clause and the wording
of preceding state proposals regarding the right to bear arms.

Ignoring the Madison-approved commentary describing the Second Amendment
as confirming the people in the right "to keep and bear their private arms," as well
as the Anti-federalist editorials declaring the Second Amendment to be a
plagiarism of Sam Adams's proposal to guarantee the people in "their own arms."

Incorrectly asserting that the eighteenth century meaning of "bear" arms was
distinctively military when in fact Madison himself, along with numerous
contemporary documents, used the phrase "bear arms" in reference to the carrying
of weapons by hunters and for other purely civilian purposes.

Propounding a "states' right" view of the Second Amendment which is an artifact
of the twentieth century gun control debate – a concept utterly unknown to the
Founders and for more than a century beyond their time.

Falsely asserting that colonial law required that firearms be communally stored
despite the total absence of such laws and the universality of laws that required
every person or household be continually armed and that men carry arms while
traveling and working in the fields.

Asserting that the Second Amendment stemmed from southern states' concern
that slave holders be armed to defeat slave revolts when in fact, except for
Virginia's, all the state requests for a right to arms came from northern states.

The BC/VPC amici's textual analysis is tortured, their historical scholarship is suspect,
and their suggestion that the Framers of the Constitution, fresh from their experience with
English tyranny and in the midst of settling a vast, untamed continent, did not intend to protect
the right of American citizens to possess arms is, in a word, absurd.

[.]

RP#62-I am trying to find the case you are quoting from. Is that from D.C. vs. Heller or another case?

[Hooter]

   The days of a "good ol fist fight" are over. Two people that disagree about something used to go outside and beat the hell outa one another. For the most part, no cops, no guns or knives. The loser got up and went on, just like the winner.  Now, hell just shoot the guy you disagree with and it doesn't have to be over much of anything at all.
  There are accounts of how this one happened, but does it matter? Grand Rapids is in the midst of a road war that goes on daily and is consistently getting worse.  People are shot or killed there on a regualar basis and the news takes about 15 minutes nightly to get thru it all.
   The bad part, this is on the increase in Kalamazoo, Battle Creek and some other cities in the G.R. vacinity as well. It has nothing to do with guns, it has to do with people. I'm not going to get into a pissin match about guns, the right to carry or any certain amendment. Most people are still responsible for their own actions and a bunch that aren't. The one's that aren't are the ones we read or hear about. Alot of times it's the innocent that are the brunt of irresponsibility.
   

[Jess from VA]

Attempts to interpret the well regulated militia clause of the 2dA to mean (only) today's various State National Guards/reserves and not every man from 16-80 is old news, and wrong.  

One has only to read the Federalist Papers, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, constitutional convention history, to see that the 2dA is us (the people) -vs- them the Brits (and all unfriendly governments, foreign and domestic).  It (2dA), along with the entire Bill of Rights (codifying and protecting multiple PERSONAL/INDIVIDUAL liberties) was made a precondition of the Constitution, before the various States would trust the creation of a central federal Government by ratifying it............ which they had good reason to distrust, as we still do all these years later.

There is not all that much SCOTUS case law on the 2dA, but a  good deal of what is there supports this interpretation.  Course, any more scum liars like Ginsburg, Sotomayor, and Kagan get on the Court, and they can say it means anything they want it to mean.

[.]

Attempts to interpret the well regulated militia clause of the 2dA to mean (only) today's various State National Guards/reserves and not every man from 16-80 is old news, and wrong.  

One has only to read the Federalist Papers, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, constitutional convention history, to see that the 2dA is us (the people) -vs- them the Brits (and all unfriendly governments, foreign and domestic).  It (2dA), along with the entire Bill of Rights (codifying and protecting multiple PERSONAL/INDIVIDUAL liberties) was made a precondition of the Constitution, before the various States would trust the creation of a central federal Government by ratifying it............ which they had good reason to distrust, as we still do all these years later.

There is not all that much SCOTUS case law on the 2dA, but a  good deal of what is there supports this interpretation.  Course, any more scum liars like Ginsburg, Sotomayor, and Kagan get on the Court, and they can say it means anything they want it to mean.

It seems though, that regardless of the provocation, that any attempt to take up arms against the lawfully empowered government would bring into play Article III Section 3 of the Constitution, or the Treason Clause. As the Bill of Rights was written AFTER the text of the Constitution the writers had to have known that. Is there anything in The Federalist Papers or other documents written by the authors of the Constitution that provide clarification on that?

[Jess from VA]

Perhaps, it's been many years since my reading.

If it comes to insurrection, decisions will no longer rest with the AG and the Federal Courts, except perhaps as cleanup afterwards (see the US Civil War).

[Hooter]

there is good to come of this.. there will be two fewer nitwits from mich., comming to fla, when they retire, to drive slowly in the left lane

I have no intentions of coming to Florida and don't consider myself a nitwit but I don't see the connnection? Must just be me?   

[Longlivedixie]

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/amendment-don-article-1.1223900

Not saying I agree or disagree but only that it's an interesting point of view.

INTERESTING?? Well, with respect.......I can think of MANY adjectives to describe it........but ''interesting'' sure never came to mind.

The author is the typical liberal LIAR........driven by a tyrannical gun-grabbing liberal agenda........trolling for idiots to soak that CRAP up. ON IT'S FACE, the author chooses to IGNORE the Founders words and intent........but that is perfectly alright, since those words and intent do not fit his little fascist sh*tbird anti-Freedom, anti-American agenda!

Left to me, I would shove the closet-commie, Rights-grabbing, Ivory tower SOB out of a plane over North Korea (which, BTW, has a murder rate 4 times the USA). He obviously would be much more comfortable there. Along with ALL so-called Americans that agree with him!

If any Americans have no use for, or respect for freedom, or God-given Rights, or liberty (paid for with the lives and limbs of millions), and wish none of their fellow citizens to enjoy those Rights either.......they have about 100 socialist, commie, semi-commie, Islamic, goofball Leftist countries to choose from to move their unhappy butts to!! On the other hand, where do we Freedom-lovers have to move to? This is IT! We cannot move ANYWHERE else to gain more freedom & liberty! America is the pinnacle of freedom and liberty! And these precious singular Rights......and freedom from tyranny will NOT be given up to the likes that pathetic sh*t-bird author and his ilk!

Scratching the surface with Founders quotes regarding guns:
____________________________________________________________________________

"A free people ought to be armed."
- George Washington

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
- John Adams

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
- George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster

"A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace."
- James Madison

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison

"The ultimate authority resides in the people alone."
- James Madison

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms."
- Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker

"... arms ... discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.... Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
- Thomas Paine

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story


" ... for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton

[Skinhead]

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/amendment-don-article-1.1223900

Not saying I agree or disagree but only that it's an interesting point of view.

The author is the typical liberal LIAR........driven by a tyrannical gun-grabbing liberal agenda........trolling for idiots to soak that CRAP up. ON IT'S FACE, the author chooses to IGNORE the Founders words and intent........but that is perfectly alright, since those words and intent do not fit his little fascist sh*tbird anti-Freedom, anti-American agenda!

Left to me, I would shove the closet-commie, Rights-grabbing, Ivory tower SOB out of a plane over North Korea (which, BTW, has a murder rate 4 times the USA). He obviously would be much more comfortable there. Along with ALL so-called Americans that agree with him!

Scratching the surface with Founders quotes regarding guns:
____________________________________________________________________________

"A free people ought to be armed."
- George Washington

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
- John Adams

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
- George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster

"A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace."
- James Madison

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison

"The ultimate authority resides in the people alone."
- James Madison

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms."
- Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker

"... arms ... discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.... Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
- Thomas Paine

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts

" ... for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton

AMEN BROTHER!

[RP#62]

RP#62-I am trying to find the case you are quoting from. Is that from D.C. vs. Heller or another case?

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
SHELLY PARKER, et al., ) Case No. 03-CV-0213-EGS
)
Plaintiffs, ) MEMORANDUM OF
) POINTS AND AUTHORITIES
v. ) IN RESPONSE TO AMICI
)
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, et al., ))
Defendants. )
____________________________________)

[RP#62]

Should have mentioned that it was part of the Heller/Parker case.  Here's some more good reading from SCOTUS on the case.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

-RP

[.]

Should have mentioned that it was part of the Heller/Parker case.  Here's some more good reading from SCOTUS on the case.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

-RP

Excellent, thank you.