clutch problem... Help needed "UPDATE"

[98valk]

like to verify from the searching.
can the below be confirmed for me?

clutch lever can only be pulled in half way, this means rivets came loose?
only 42k miles on bike, normal riding and commuting, un-rideable right now.
read yrs ago that there were some bikes having the rivet clutch problem/s with btwn 40-50k miles.
what exactly will need to be replaced?
this happened after pulling in clutch lever and then shifting into neutral for long coast up to a red light. Have done it before sometimes, usually have mild clunk, this time was a loud clunk. Is this something to be avoided always in the future?
on all bikes or just this one?
that's for any help.

C.

Well it was the damper plate. two rivets went away and the flat spring slid over to the next rivet partially sheared it and jammed itself in between the outer damper plate and spring. both clutch plates on either side of damper were damage slightly, so replaced those with two new plates.
Some info, bought a complete used clutch assembly on ebay for $40, price ranges found $40-100+. this way I had a clutch basket, which greatly helped in assembly. This was from a '91 Goldwing 113k, mic'd the clutch plates and actually measured that same as my 42k plates and the two new ones. so basically the clutch doesn't wear out. I can see why GL1500 forums state clutch is good for 200-300k miles. From checking parts fiches ALL GL1500s use the same number of clutch plates, so basket and clutch center are all the same. what is different is the clutch plate design and materials. Up to '97 all the clutch plates are the same except #4 and #7 which are actually the same that all '97 and up clutch plates are thus the upgrade mentioned for valkyries and 97-00 goldwings. Embossed on the pressure plate states they are paper disks.
The 113k damper plate looked fine and had the same slight movement as the new one I bought.

[sandy]

I have a '98 with 143K and no clutch issues. So not all Valks will have that problem. The repair is to replace the clutch.

[Chrisj CMA]

like to verify from the searching.
can the below be confirmed for me?

clutch lever can only be pulled in half way, this means rivets came loose?
only 42k miles on bike, normal riding and commuting, un-rideable right now.
read yrs ago that there were some bikes having the rivet clutch problem/s with btwn 40-50k miles.
what exactly will need to be replaced?
this happened after pulling in clutch lever and then shifting into neutral for long coast up to a red light. Have done it before sometimes, usually have mild clunk, this time was a loud clunk. Is this something to be avoided always in the future?
on all bikes or just this one?
that's for any help.

C.

Shifting the bike into neutral and coasting should not hurt the clutch or the transmission but its definitely not a safe way to approach any intersection.  keeping power available is always your safest bet.

You will need a pressure plate and if youre lucky that's all you will need.

[Valkpilot]

CA, see if this helps: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,20870.0.html

I agree that your shifting technique probably did not cause this.  At 42k miles, I'd be surprised if you had to replace anything but the damper plate, but as long as you're in there...

[98valk]

CA, see if this helps: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,20870.0.html

I agree that your shifting technique probably did not cause this.  At 42k miles, I'd be surprised if you had to replace anything but the damper plate, but as long as you're in there...

Thanks, 
had similar issue with neutral, the light would not come on sometimes even though it was in neutral, been doing that for about yr. and there were a few times in the last few months it would not go into neutral easily.
See u stated from older posts that certain yrs have the problem, that is what I remember reading

Question, does my Rivco center stand need to remove? I imagine it does.

[HayHauler]

If it was me, I would replace the dampener plate(rivet plate), clutch spring(just to have a good stiff spring), and the gasket.  With that few miles on the bike, the fiber plates shouldn't have much wear.  I would check them for thickness, but would be surprised if any were out of spec.

Good luck with the replacement.

Can't comment on the Rivco adapter, but I didn't have to remove my adapter that bolts to the kick stand bolts when I did mine.

Hay 
Jimmyt

[98valk]

Thanks J T,
pretty much my plan.
I will take apart the slave cylinder first, according to below, it should be taken apart and clean as it can be a cause of the rivets going bad in the first place or could be causing my symptoms out of nowhere esp the low miles.
Looks like a good prevent for our bikes.

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/481498-99-gl1500-clutch-problem-help.html

[F6Dave]

That is the symptom mine had when the rivets began to shear.  However, after squeezing the lever a few times with the engine running the rivet would eject from the clutch pack and all felt fine -- until the next one sheared.  Of course now there were fewer rivets holding the damper plate together so this would only get worse.

All I really needed to replace was the damper plate.  Heck, if the part wasn't available I could just replace the rivets.  Since I ordered parts before tearing it down, I also got a new spring (the old one was still well within specs), new fiber plates (the old ones were fine), the big nut (the book said to) and the gasket, which I didn't use because I didn't want to scrape the old one off.  That happened at about 138K miles (I think) and all is fine now at 173K.

The job is not hard at all.  It looked like a PITA because of the unusual clutch placement, but once on a lift there were no unusual problems.  I posted some pictures that I could re-post if needed.

[98valk]

found your posts Dave nice write-up and pics
Thanks

[The emperor has no clothes]

If it was me, I would replace the dampener plate(rivet plate), clutch spring(just to have a good stiff spring), and the gasket.  With that few miles on the bike, the fiber plates shouldn't have much wear.  I would check them for thickness, but would be surprised if any were out of spec.

Good luck with the replacement.

Can't comment on the Rivco adapter, but I didn't have to remove my adapter that bolts to the kick stand bolts when I did mine.

Hay 
Jimmyt

Are there different center stands ? I thought there was just the Rivco.

[98valk]

If it was me, I would replace the dampener plate(rivet plate), clutch spring(just to have a good stiff spring), and the gasket.  With that few miles on the bike, the fiber plates shouldn't have much wear.  I would check them for thickness, but would be surprised if any were out of spec.

Good luck with the replacement.

Can't comment on the Rivco adapter, but I didn't have to remove my adapter that bolts to the kick stand bolts when I did mine.

Hay 
Jimmyt

Are there different center stands ? I thought there was just the Rivco.

only one I know of.

[HayHauler]

If it was me, I would replace the dampener plate(rivet plate), clutch spring(just to have a good stiff spring), and the gasket.  With that few miles on the bike, the fiber plates shouldn't have much wear.  I would check them for thickness, but would be surprised if any were out of spec.

Good luck with the replacement.

Can't comment on the Rivco adapter, but I didn't have to remove my adapter that bolts to the kick stand bolts when I did mine.

Hay 
Jimmyt

Are there different center stands ? I thought there was just the Rivco.

only one I know of.

Sorry, dumb a$$ alert....  I thought you were talking about a "lift adapter".  I'll shut up now... 

Hay 
Jimmyt

[Evil Santa]

I just did mine recently using Valkpilot's post (thanks Valkpilot). Mine has 93000 miles and looked to be ridden very hard by previous owner. I replaced all fibers and steels with the Damper plate. Steels were blued and fibers were under spec.  I would say you will have to remove center stand. Not a bad job with the homemade tools and the post. A manual is a must for me also..

[Ricky-D]

You ought to consider when you're redoing the clutch pack, replacing the damper assembly with

two steel discs and a fiber in between.

That damper assembly is not a required item and can be replaced with standard plates and fibers.

I have had no problem with my clutch, but will do as I suggest to you, whenever the time comes

when I need to work on the clutch.

***

[Evil Santa]

I noticed the clutch being a bit grabby after rebuilding. Grabs hard if you let out clutch fast as in speed shifting. Without the Damper I wonder what it would be like. I'm guessing that's why they have the Damper plate in the first place. Anyone who has replaced the Damper want to weigh in? That is why I didn't do away with it.
Jim

[98valk]

seems RD might be making a good point.  
I do follow some Goldwing websites esp. when it has to to with the engine.

However below seams not to be for the GL1500 engine. They are doing it for the GL1000, 1100 and I think 1200 engines. Can't find anywhere if its done for the GL1500 more research needed. RD u have any sites/info on it being done and results, benefits good and bad for operation?

http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16877

"In the middle of the clutch pack there sits the most horrendous piece of engineering which Honda call 'Plate B'.

It's a clutch damper, two plain plates which sandwich a number of spring steel strips between them to give a cushioning effect to the clutch action."

[F6Dave]

I just did mine recently using Valkpilot's post (thanks Valkpilot). Mine has 93000 miles and looked to be ridden very hard by previous owner. I replaced all fibers and steels with the Damper plate. Steels were blued and fibers were under spec.  I would say you will have to remove center stand. Not a bad job with the homemade tools and the post. A manual is a must for me also..

You don't have to remove the center stand, but the side stand does have to come off.  As I remember it is easy, except for stretching the spring.

[Ricky-D]

I'll probably be flamed for this, but I feel very strongly that the reason for

most damper plate failures arise from downshifting to brake the speed.

Doing so (braking with the clutch) imparts forces to the clutch pack that

are directly opposite to the forces from acceleration. Call it back and forth

motion.  Now, in the concept, the steel plates riveted with the springs between

then, should not have any unnatural movement being the center splined 

keeps them "together" and turning in unison. But, as all the clutch pack components

wear in, there becomes clearances between all the parts, discs and plates, carrier and

splined hub. This additional clearance builds up and under engine braking there can

occur non-aligned forces being applied to the damper which in turn will begin to stress

the rivets which are not designed for any kind of loading. This back and forth motion

will eventually cause the rivets to fail, and cause the clutch to become inoperable.

Note: Downshifting to brake the speed is never a good idea on the Valkyrie, being

the brakes on the Valkyrie are very good and substantial.  And consider that wearing

out the brakes on the Valkyrie is a much cheaper fix than having to get inside the engine

to make alterations to the clutch.   

***

[Jeff K]

I rode a valk with the damper plate removed. I did not like the clutch "feel" it was very unforgiving. Trying to load that bike into a truck was "different" slipping the clutch takes some practice.
I didn't like it.

[Rio Wil]

Ricky.....not a flame, but I do disagree. Over 200K on original clutch, ride the phat lady with gusto both in accelerating and scrubbing off speed with down shifting whether coming off a freeway off ramp at 80 mph and dropping through the gears, 5-4-3 then brakes........or riding the twisties.....or city streets.......why?.....I like the sound....     Down shift first....then the brakes.....

Also, it seems to keep the clutch plates "scrubbed" in the reverse direction and makes for a smoother clutch overall.....thats just my .02 cents.....,

[3W-lonerider]

Ricky.....not a flame, but I do disagree. Over 200K on original clutch, ride the phat lady with gusto both in accelerating and scrubbing off speed with down shifting whether coming off a freeway off ramp at 80 mph and dropping through the gears, 5-4-3 then brakes........or riding the twisties.....or city streets.......why?.....I like the sound....     Down shift first....then the brakes.....

Also, it seems to keep the clutch plates "scrubbed" in the reverse direction and makes for a smoother clutch overall.....thats just my .02 cents.....,

i also agree with you. i down shift every single time to scrub off speed.
i had to replace my clutch at 123,000 miles. not due to a dampner plate failure but due to clutch shake when starting out. you have to slip the clutch alittle extra on a trike to start out going uphill.
when i took my clutch out there were no looseness in the rivits at all..

[Rio Wil]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised that if you had switched to a different oil that it would have fixed the shudder at take off. I had the same problem after running M1 15-40 for 100K and the shudder gradually became worse, switched to Rotella 15-40 and has been fine for the last 75K.......

[98valk]

CA, see if this helps: http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,20870.0.html

I agree that your shifting technique probably did not cause this.  At 42k miles, I'd be surprised if you had to replace anything but the damper plate, but as long as you're in there...
[/quote

Thanks VP another great write-up 

[3W-lonerider]

yep..i used different types of oil. changed it out about every 1000 miles that summer trying to get the shutter out of it. only oil that came close to relieving the problem was castol . but since then Castrol has changed their formula and can't use it anymore.
 unless you run the Castrol specific for motorcycles. rotella is a good oil and that's what I run now.
I'm at 180,000 and I'm starting to get the shutter back again. not bad yet, more noticeable if the engine is really hot from sitting in stop and go traffic. once it cools down alittle it's gone.

[Pappy!]

For as long as Honda has been designing clutches I would think this (decelleration) has been taken into account.

[98valk]

yep..i used different types of oil. changed it out about every 1000 miles that summer trying to get the shutter out of it. only oil that came close to relieving the problem was castol . but since then Castrol has changed their formula and can't use it anymore.
 unless you run the Castrol specific for motorcycles. rotella is a good oil and that's what I run now.
I'm at 180,000 and I'm starting to get the shutter back again. not bad yet, more noticeable if the engine is really hot from sitting in stop and go traffic. once it cools down alittle it's gone.

I've been perusing the GL1500 Goldwing forums, every time shuttering comes up two things are mentioned, clutch plates sticking together, solution, some type of engine flush additive for 100 miles,  and the slave cylinder needs to be taken apart, cleaned and possibly rebuilt. due to design of SC just flushing every two yrs doesn't really clean it out and the only way is to take it apart and clean.
this lack of SC maintenance is also attributed to the damper plate failing which seams to be my problem even though I have flushed the SC but I can see not enough.
Also it is noted that OEM clutch plates will last approx 300k miles even with a bike being fully loaded and pulling a trailer. and in '97-00 the clutch was upgraded in all GLs to match the valkyrie clutch.

[3W-lonerider]

slave cyl parcally sticking would make sense as far as premature wear on the clutch and dampner plate.
I know most times when I let my bike sit for a week you can't start it without it lurching forward. and finding neutral is imposible till the oil gets circulated in the clutch plates.

[98valk]

Well it was the damper plate. two rivets gave up and the flat spring slid over to the next rivet partially sheared it and jammed itself in between the outer damper plate and spring. both clutch plates on either side of damper were damage slightly, so replaced those with two new plates.
Some info, bought a complete used clutch assembly on ebay for $40, price ranges found $40-100+. this way I had a clutch basket, which greatly helped in assembly. This was from a '91 Goldwing 113k, mic'd the clutch plates and actually measured that same as my 42k plates and the two new ones. so basically the clutch doesn't wear out. I can see why GL1500 forums state clutch is good for 200-300k miles. From checking parts fiches ALL GL1500s use the same number of clutch plates, so basket and clutch center are all the same. what is different is the clutch plate design and materials. Up to '97 all the clutch plates are the same except #4 and #7 which are actually the same that all '97 and up clutch plates are thus the upgrade mentioned for valkyries and 97-00 goldwings. Embossed on the pressure plate states they are paper disks.
The 113k damper plate looked fine and had the same slight movement as the new one I bought.