Help! Broke a bolt

[cogsman]

I was removing my TBR exhaust to replace with stock, and I broke one of the retaining bolts on the very first turn. Yes, I went easy. It broke anyway.

Can anyone tell me what to do? This is my first attempt at this.

[WintrSol]

Take the head to a machine shop, familiar with removing studs. See #17 in http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1998/GL1500CT+A/CYLINDER+HEAD/parts.html.

[cogsman]

Is this something I can do myself?

[Michvalk]

Penetrating oil, like WD 40, or PB Blaster, and a pair of vice grips. The bolts are available from Honda. Take your time, and you may need to apply some heat. You will NOT need to remove the head

[R J]

Spray the sheet out of it with penetrating oil.

Let it soak over night.

Spray it again.    Don't get in a hurry.

You have a nice piece of stub left over, so you have a nice piece to get ahold of with a GOOD set of vise grips.

Lock down on it up in the large part.

Do a short turn one way, then the other.

Spray the crap out of it again and let it soak.

Now, try to back it out very very slowly.
If it gets tight again, spray it again and try to tightened it to snug.   Even if it is only a 1/4 turn.    Spray it again, let it soak, and try to remove it very slowly.

You are trying to overtake some rust in the bolt in an aluminum head.

Once ya get it out, put some anti seize on a new bolt and tighten easy.   Don't do an overkill on it.   Take your time.

Do you have any VRCC Brothers in your neighborhood?

If so, ask them for help in removing it.   I'm sure one of those brothers has removed a broken stud.

Keep the F**kin drill away from this stud.   You are playing with aluminum vs steel.   Guess who is the strongest one.

[signart]

Is this something I can do myself?

Yes you can do it. Do what RJ says above. Only thing I would add maybe lightly tap, tap, tap on end of bolt after pen. oil to get the oil to work in the corrosion.

Just like he said take your time.

[sandy]

I have a set of them if you want a used replacement.

[Tfrank59]

Penetrating oil, like WD 40, or PB Blaster, and a pair of vice grips. The bolts are available from Honda. Take your time, and you may need to apply some heat. You will NOT need to remove the head

And after you put the penetrating oil on there be patient, let it do its work.  Maybe even overnight.  then some light wraps on the end of the stud may help to free it, After the penetrating oil has done its work but before you try the vise grips.  And when you put the vise grips on there after the penetrating oil and the light wraps to free the stud, try to gently work it back-and-forth to see if it will free up and unscrew.  If it won't unscrew at that point, you might try applying some heat, but that's a tricky process.  Either way, don't be afraid to take your time and repeat the process many times if necessary.  One thing you don't want to do is break the stud off flush with the head!  Know this, if you don't get it to unscrew according to this process, you will end up removing the head so that a machine shop can drill out that broken stud.

OK, what RJ said

[WintrSol]

Aluminum expands faster than steel, so baking the head would help, too; once it is really hot, press an ice cube against the stud to shrink it, and you just might get it free.

[gordonv]

Aluminum expands faster than steel, so baking the head would help, too; once it is really hot, press an ice cube against the stud to shrink it, and you just might get it free.

They also have a freezing spray just for that too.

If you need to, rather than remove the head, but the exhaust back on and drive it over.

Remember to use some anti seize on all those stubs when you put her back together.

Personally, after you learn on that one stub, I would remove the rest of the stubs and apply the anti seize. But during the down time of the year, again, you don't want to rush it.

[R J]

I'm not saying this to piss anyone off, BUT,

Personally, if it was me I'd put the damn exhaust back on and leave it alone.

When I buy a new vehicle, I modify the exhaust with aftermarket mufflers and get the sound I want and quit screwing with it.    I do that while the threads are still fresh and easy to work with.

I'll shut up and quit sounding like an old nitty ditty father carrying on.

 

[Dave Weaver]

I have a new stud and nut I will put in an envelope and mail to ya, if ya want.  Saves you from ordering one and waiting for it.  I ordered 12 and only replaced 3 or 4.  Pm me ur address if ya want 1 or more.

[crow]

Weld a nut on the stud, a bit larger in diameter than  what's there.  As soon as the color goes out of it , immediately, remove the stud.

[R J]

Weld a nut on the stud, a bit larger in diameter than  what's there.  As soon as the color goes out of it , immediately, remove the stud.

That's nice, BUT everyone doesn't have a welder.

[Alien]

I've often wondered if stronger studs would be helpful or if they'd just rip the threads out of the head if they get over tightened.

[old2soon]

I could be wrong here but as I've worked on this beast from mutha Honda I have noticed a distinct lack of anti seize when two dissimilar metals or two of the same metals are involved. Far as the exhaust nuts go I believe hey call for 8 foot pounds of torque. I go lightly snug. Far as the broken stud goes-pay attention to what R J has laid out. RIDE SAFE.

[Steve K (IA)]

I've often wondered if stronger studs would be helpful or if they'd just rip the threads out of the head if they get over tightened.

If your familiar with those studs, they are a stepped design...2 different diameters.  The smaller diameter on the outside.  It's my thought that they made it this way so if you tightened one to the point of breaking,  there is enough of the larger part of the stud to get a hold of.  And you don't have the possibility of the stud breaking off flush with the head.  

You notice when someone posts a picture of this, it always breaks where the diameter steps up.

I use a 1/4 drive ratchet when tightening those nuts.  My thumb and first 3 fingers holding the head of the ratchet and extend my little finger out a ways to leverage the handle and gently tighten.  That's not much leverage.  When it feels tight, I stop.     

And as I have stated in other posts, whenever I remove a screw or bolt, I put either regular anti-seize, hi-temp anti-seize or grease on the threads before replacing.  What I use depends on where and what bolt / screw it may be.

[DK]

If you do get to the point of having to weld, first, weld a flatwasher to the stud followed by welding the nut to the washer. A tall coupler nut is best.

Doing it this way gives you a much stronger weld.

Dan

[cogsman]

Thanks guys, looks like i have a plan to proceed. Interesting, I pulled off the other side to see if i'd need more bolts. I didn't break any others but 3 of them came right out. Looks like the screw cap is stuck straight on.

I'll probably just replace those 3 as well, plus the associated caps. Two caps had actually been replaced by regular nuts instead of nut caps. What a shambles lol.

[Xtracho]

Broke one of mine last year. Did EXACTLY as R J said. Came out no problem.

[gordonv]

Thanks guys, looks like i have a plan to proceed. Interesting, I pulled off the other side to see if i'd need more bolts. I didn't break any others but 3 of them came right out. Looks like the screw cap is stuck straight on.

2 nuts tightened to each other, some more WD40, and you should be able to get those old acorn nuts off the studs. Replace them if you want. But after reinstalling with anti seize, they shouldn't be a problem again, along with not over tightening them. I also recall that they get tightened to 7 inch pounds, not 8. For me, I tightened just enough so the crush washers got crushed, and there wasn't any exhaust leak. Needed to tighten up 2 after a week because of a leak.

[Patrick]

I know I'm repeating some of this, but.
Soak it
Double nut it if there are enough threads to do so. If not, vise grips work fine for this. There is plenty of room.
Heat it
Soak it again
Heat it again
Rap the end with a hammer many times straight up as if driving the stud into the cylinder head
Soak it again
Heat it again
Rap it again
Unscrew the stud
Install studs with never-seize on both ends
Don't over tighten either studs or nuts !  Just use the wrench [ or 1/4" drive ratchet] on the nuts, 8mm or 10mm [ I forget which it is] and snug them. Run it thru several heat cycles and keep snugging the nuts lightly, it'll take several times.


The stud will come out. But, if for some reason it doesn't and breaks off I still wouldn't remove the cylinder head. I'd drill the stud and re-tap the the hole back to the original size. The key is drilling a small pilot hole in the stud perfectly on center, then drilling progressively larger to the tap drill size. Then use the tap to just chase/clean the hole/threads.

[R J]

Patrick, now you sound like a machine shop owner or employee.

Only thing I'll say on your commment is 'tap it with a plastic hammer.'     

[Patrick]

Patrick, now you sound like a machine shop owner or employee.

Only thing I'll say on your commment is 'tap it with a plastic hammer.'     

Born in a Studebaker parts room  and brought up in the auto repair business RJ [ Studebaker and Ford]. But we worked on everything from from the neighbor kids  tri-cycles to  dozers.
We had our own machine shop and fabrication shop. When young we even had a blacksmith, great man and I learned a lot from him as well as most others in the shop.
I say 'we' , but, I mean my family especially my grandfather.
Today I mostly fool around with old motorbikes and cars, mostly Model A's.

[R J]

Is that a Coupe or Roadster in your aviatar?

What ever it is, it looks good from this distance.

My 1st car was a 25 Ford Coupe.

Had a bad bearing in it.

I tried to re-babbit it but no luck.

Took my belt off, cut a chuck out of it to fit the insert.

Put it in for a bearing and drove it for 3 years that way, not very fast, but it ran nice.

[Patrick]

Is that a Coupe or Roadster in your aviatar?

What ever it is, it looks good from this distance.

My 1st car was a 25 Ford Coupe.

Had a bad bearing in it.

I tried to re-babbit it but no luck.

Took my belt off, cut a chuck out of it to fit the insert.

Put it in for a bearing and drove it for 3 years that way, not very fast, but it ran nice.

Thats a '31 STD roadster [Model A]  that was 'deluxed' before I got it in '76. Std's are rare and I will change it back if and when I ever re-do it. I like running it the way it is, patina is the 'in thing' today, but, I'm starting to get in the mood to re-do it.
Babbitt. Babbitt is tough, almost a lost art. There are very few that can pour and finish it right. I happen to like babbitt.  I'm surprised at the folks that drop by with all types of old vehicles and ask to have the bottoms tighten up. Seems no one knows, or wants, to touch them. I enjoy doing it.
Looks good from a distance ? You noticed !  Its a 50 footer !   

[Valker]

Thanks guys, looks like i have a plan to proceed. Interesting, I pulled off the other side to see if i'd need more bolts. I didn't break any others but 3 of them came right out. Looks like the screw cap is stuck straight on.

2 nuts tightened to each other, some more WD40, and you should be able to get those old acorn nuts off the studs. Replace them if you want. But after reinstalling with anti seize, they shouldn't be a problem again, along with not over tightening them. I also recall that they get tightened to 7 inch pounds, not 8. For me, I tightened just enough so the crush washers got crushed, and there wasn't any exhaust leak. Needed to tighten up 2 after a week because of a leak.

Manual says 7lb ft which is 84 inch lbs. I bought a $10 Harbor Freight 1/4" torque wrench marked in inch pounds just for these exhaust studs. I didn't trust the HF tool, so I compared it to my expensive one-spot on. I retest it before I tighten the exhaust nuts every time. So far (about 8 times) it is still spot on.

[mustang071965]

go to sears or your auto parts store. get a set of broken bolt and nut removers. they are open in the middle. i have a set and have removed both stripped nuts and broken bolts. as long as there is enough left for them to grab they will remove it. but soak the bolt for about 24 hours with either pb blaster or nut buster.

[quexpress]

But, if for some reason it doesn't and breaks off I still wouldn't remove the cylinder head. I'd drill the stud and re-tap the the hole back to the original size. The key is drilling a small pilot hole in the stud perfectly on center, then drilling progressively larger to the tap drill size. Then use the tap to just chase/clean the hole/threads.

If, for some reason, you need to drill the stud, a jig is very helpful.
http://www.quexpress.02hosting.com/quexpress/stud_repair.htm
Good luck! 

[crow]

Patrick has it right.  Always take your time. And when it gets to the point of loosening,  back and forth, back and forth.  The washer is also right on.  And if  studs break  below the surface,  insert a copper tube. Then build up with weld to the point you can get a nut on.  Also,  how is it possible to live or survive without a welder? (Just kidding).   A friend of mine said the same thing but said milling machine. 

[Led]

Patrick, now you sound like a machine shop owner or employee.

Only thing I'll say on your commment is 'tap it with a plastic hammer.'    

Born in a Studebaker parts room  and brought up in the auto repair business RJ [ Studebaker and Ford]. But we worked on everything from from the neighbor kids  tri-cycles to  dozers.
We had our own machine shop and fabrication shop. When young we even had a blacksmith, great man and I learned a lot from him as well as most others in the shop.
I say 'we' , but, I mean my family especially my grandfather.
Today I mostly fool around with old motorbikes and cars, mostly Model A's.

I can truly appreciate that!!!!!    MANY of the "old school" ways of doing things, are becoming lost on a lot of People today.  Our Grandfathers, KNEW how to get a job done!!!

This info, seems no longer to be passed down through the generations.  AND THAT is unfortunate!!!    

[heavyd]

I am in the middle of this myself, first two I tried to take out twisted off after 3 days of soaking in penetrating oil without the nuts even moving a single thread. Finding replacements has been a nightmare so far, Honda says that they are backordered. I got my broken studs out with these, the most ass-saving tools I have ever bought.

[Tfrank59]

I am in the middle of this myself, first two I tried to take out twisted off after 3 days of soaking in penetrating oil without the nuts even moving a single thread. Finding replacements has been a nightmare so far, Honda says that they are backordered. I got my broken studs out with these, the most ass-saving tools I have ever bought.

Those are really nice to have – I've used them a bunch of times, but you can be fooled by cheap imitations.  I think the harbor freight ones the little teeth inside will round over before the stud! Mind telling what brand those are?  They don't look like Mac or snap on because the box ain't red

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I've removed several by tapping the stud with a hammer and then a good set of visegrips not any of the cheap ones. they always have screwed right out.

[R J]

I've removed several by tapping the stud with a hammer and then a good set of visegrips not any of the cheap ones. they always have screwed right out.

That is the way my grandfather taught me how to do it and in 82 years I have yet to use a special tool.

[heavyd]

Those are really nice to have – I've used them a bunch of times, but you can be fooled by cheap imitations.  I think the harbor freight ones the little teeth inside will round over before the stud! Mind telling what brand those are?  They don't look like Mac or snap on because the box ain't red

They are Mastercraft, house brand of Canadian Tire.

[cogsman]

Ok folks, I managed to get the bolt off by following your advice:

• Soaked in liquid wrench
  Tapped with rubber mallet
  Attached a good quality vise-grip
  Rocked back and forth
  Finally gave and allow me to start turning
  Went slow

Time to get the new bolt in and start to tighten up. Any advice on putting the bolt into the block? Do I tighten it with pliers until it's snug?

[Tfrank59]

  on getting 'er out!  I would use anti seize and snug up the new stud gut-en-tite.

[Steve K (IA)]

Ok folks, I managed to get the bolt off by following your advice:

• Soaked in liquid wrench
  Tapped with rubber mallet
  Attached a good quality vise-grip
  Rocked back and forth
  Finally gave and allow me to start turning
  Went slow

Time to get the new bolt in and start to tighten up. Any advice on putting the bolt into the block? Do I tighten it with pliers until it's snug?

I wouldn't get it too tight.  Just snug should do it.  Once you put up the exhaust and tighten the nuts, it isn't going anywhere.  Don't forget the Hi-temp anti-seize.

[cogsman]

How hi-temp? The stuff I have is the Permatex Silver, good to 1600F