Signs of the Times

[solo1]

I'm on the Board of Elders in our church.  I've been tasked, along with our retired police chief, with coming up with a complete security plan for our church.

I believe that churches are grouped together with business establishments that post signs "No guns allowed", and as such, could be fair game for nuts and terrorists ...

As near as I can determine, our church's congregation will welcome ANY plan that keeps our  members safe.

It is a balancing act and not an easy task, it's sad to say.

A lot of things have changed since 9/11 and these changes have been accelerated in the last six or seven years.

Just commenting.

[G-Man]

Bouncers.  Call them ushers if you need to. 

You can prolly set something up with the local auxiliary police as well.  There is are 2 churches in Hartsdale, NY that have auxiliary police parked outside every Sunday.  One church is on a very busy street and the church does not have a big lot so folks park on both sides of the street.  It's a road with 2 lanes in either direction and a double yellow line down the middle and it's also a big commercial area.  The faux cops are there for pedestrian crossing and traffic control, every Sunday.

The other church is on a hill and the road down meets a very busy road at a peculiar intersection with a firehouse at that intersection.  Auxiliary and sometimes real cops are there for traffic control

[da prez]

   A sign in front

                 PARISHINERS PACKING.

                                                            da prez

                     

[fudgie]

I carry when I go to church. I know for a fact the preacher and his wife carries at church and during the sermon. 

[solo1]

I carry when I go to church. I know for a fact the preacher and his wife carries at church and during the sermon.  Quote by Fudgie.

 

I haven't done so yet but.............  Unfortunately, churches are 'target enriched' and it would take a better shot than me to not hit a parishioner instead (especially under pressure).  We all know that being precision accurate with a pistol is not like the movies.  A person armed with a red dot pistol carbine in the narthex might be better.

[Alien]

The fact that security is needed in church is depressing. 

[Marinakorp]

I carry when I go to church. I know for a fact the preacher and his wife carries at church and during the sermon.  Quote by Fudgie.

 

I haven't done so yet but.............  Unfortunately, churches are 'target enriched' and it would take a better shot than me to not hit a parishioner instead (especially under pressure).  We all know that being precision accurate with a pistol is not like the movies.  A person armed with a red dot pistol carbine in the narthex might be better.

yes, however... if the need arises, and you could be the deciding factor in only a few getting shot and quite a few getting shot....I would make the decision to carry. While I wouldn't attempt a 30 yard shot with my carry gun with scrambling parishoners... I may attempt to get to a better vantage to stop the massacre from getting larger...

who knows, the intruder might be right next to you... and wouldn't have to take a long shot at all....

[old2soon]

Funny you bring this question up my fiend. I asked our head Pastor this very question shortly after I received my C C W permit. His response to me was to the effect-at least 3 members at each service-early and 2nd service-ARE packing. And our Church while NOT really in the sticks is in the country. Anther words IF something happens help is minutes-I figure 10 to 12 minutes-IF everything WORKS EXACTLY like it's supposed to.   Wayne I M H O you NEED some members of the flock to be armed. The old Boy Scout motto DOE'S apply here-Be Prepared!   SOME members WILL NOT understand or approve of being armed at Church BUT that can be worked around done properly. Hope you and the Church board come up with a workable solution. RIDE SAFE.

[Serk]

I carry.

All day, every day, at home, on the road, in stores, etc.

As much as possible I don't go places where I'm legally disarmed.

If I were a church going type I'd carry to church. (In Texas a church has to proactively exclude self defense, otherwise a CHL holder can carry there). And if a particular church did make itself a defenseless victim zone, I would choose another church to go to.

[Jess from VA]

There's fire and other rules about locking doors in public buildings.  However, locked from the outside and unlocked from the inside (door bars), should be fine.

During services, only the main door is unlocked (all back and side doors locked from the outside).  One armed man in back nearest the main entrance, positioned to watch the door and not the service (with better than a mouse gun, more like a target gun).  If there's money, put him in a vest (quality used are available, and the PD may gift one).  An M4 AR within reach, very well hidden but not locked would be nice, but only if the security man is qualified with it.

If there's money, a security cam very obviously over the front door to parking lot.  This alone could cause a planner to pick another target.

If any other congregants have a CCW and want to carry fine, but you might have a range day with all/any of them to give your own personal seal of approval.  (Without telling them that is what you are doing.... you are weeding out, not qualifying in)

And I'd keep this plan between the elders/deacons and not the general congregation (one of whom could always have a psychotic day).  Need to know is the policy.

[czuch]

God save us all.
Order and read, "a failure of civility.  afailureofcivility.com"
Its concealed. Nobody knows its there. God helps them who helps themselves.
Be the deciding factor.
Jess from VA has good ideas.

[solo1]

There's fire and other rules about locking doors in public buildings.  However, locked from the outside and unlocked from the inside (door bars), should be fine.

During services, only the main door is unlocked (all back and side doors locked from the outside).  One armed man in back nearest the main entrance, positioned to watch the door and not the service (with better than a mouse gun, more like a target gun).  An M4 AR within reach, very well hidden but not locked would be nice, but only if the security man is qualified with it.

If there's money, a security cam very obviously over the front door to parking lot.

If any other congregants have a CCW and want to carry fine, but you might have a range day with all/any of them to give your own personal seal of approval.  (Without telling them that is what you are doing.... you are weeding out, not qualifying in)

And I'd keep this plan between the elders/deacons and not the general congregation (one of whom could always have a psychotic day).  Need to know is the policy. QUOTE by Jess


Excellent!.  I was thinking along those lines also.

 We also have two LEOs'  a former police chief  and a former Allen co. sheriff who are parishioners..  Securing the premises, locks, access, awareness, lots of things to consider.  It will be a big job but we have basically a conservative church.

[Jess from VA]

Couple edits to my post after your quote Wayne.

[Robert]

Actually many churches are making sure to have someone with a gun in the congregation or hire security. If you check you will find many more major congregations have been endorsing this. At one church I go to they hire local police in uniform to be there at all services.

[Valker]

The lady who stopped the nut in Colorado a few years ago was carrying. Two were killed in the parking lot, that was a tragedy, but that was the total. The nut had over 1000 rounds in his backpack and a packed auditorium he didn't get to. Several churches in my area of Texas conduct CCW classes at the church. Most (yes, most) of the elderly ladies are carrying all the time.

[solo1]

Still good Jess!

I've asked for comments from our Elders. That will be interesting. I'm still a certified instructor with the NRA,  Possible to conduct classes in safety. However, the biggest thing is awareness in all parishioners.  We most certainly do NOT need overreaction on the part of the untrained.

Avoidance is much better than 'shoot 'em up"!

[Jess from VA]

Layers of security (from the street, inward) should always be the plan.  Ideally, you set your property up so it tells planners to pick another target.

But once you have a psycho or jihadist (same thing), all planning may go out the window except the trigger man.

If you end up with a security man at/near the door, it will be pretty plain to all parishioners.  If so, you tell them to all get down and cover as a first reaction, and any armed in the pews to provide backup, only if necessary.  Another good reason to put your security man in a vest.

Another thought Wayne.  Since so many churches are creating and implementing security plans,  I'd reach out to get a copy of any I could get my hands on.  There's probably been quite a bit of thought put in them.  It isn't plagiarism.  Use what you like, discard the rest. If they are worried about security (they should be), have them remove any identifiers to their particular church.  Some of our members might be able to help with this.  No harm in asking.  (I'll bet the LDS folks have some bang up plans)

And I hate to mention it, but your church probably also has insurance, and I don't like those people and would not tell them anything I didn't have to, but a review of the fine print in the policy is a good idea (visa vi a security plan involving firearms).  And adding a half or whole million balloon wrap-around coverage for all contingencies, may also be in the budget (as long as it actually provides payable coverage in a security incident).  Be nice if it also covered any security men (acting as authorized agents of the church).  Also be nice if the church's insurance agent is a fellow parishioner, helping from the inside (not running away in horror to cancel your policy).

And while I'm being anal, any actual plan reduced to writing, should be drafted in such a way to show due care, thoughtful consideration, training, reasonableness, yada..... understanding that it will absolutely be discoverable pretrial evidence provided to a plaintiff's attorney in any civil action.   

[Chrisj CMA]

I carry when I go to church. I know for a fact the preacher and his wife carries at church and during the sermon. 

Ditto

[The emperor has no clothes]

The fact that security is needed in church is depressing. 

Agreed. It's a pretty sad state we're in. 

[Woton]

I carry when I go to church. I know for a fact the preacher and his wife carries at church and during the sermon.

Geeeeeez!  This reads like the plot of a bad Charles Bronson movie.

[Jess from VA]

I carry when I go to church. I know for a fact the preacher and his wife carries at church and during the sermon.

Geeeeeez!  This reads like the plot of a bad Charles Bronson movie.

Not really Kelly.  Just the logical extension of my scoutmaster teaching me the Boy Scout motto at age 11..... be prepared.

Have bad people never put you (or loved ones, or complete strangers) in fear of your life, up close and personal?  Never taken a serious beating?  If you haven't, you're lucky.

Many of our carrying members served in the armed forces, and a number of them got close hand experience with people shooting at them.  

I've been attacked in the street by a man twice my size literally frothing at the mouth who announced that was going to kill me (then tried very had to do it).  Because his very old mother ran a stop sign without even slowing and I hit them.  And when she tried to stop him, he punched her in the face and laid her out in the street bleeding.  And the street people sitting on the curb drinking wine, laughing and cheering and egging him on.  I wasn't armed (yet).

A law proff was murdered in my law school parking garage (same one i had to use) my first day of (night) school.  I carried a Colt Det Spl the rest of the year in my book bag, right into class (no other place to store it), no permit.

Practicing criminal law, I got vicarious exposure to all sorts of murder, mayhem, rape and aggravated assaults by fellow humans, often with the parade of evidence of guns, bullets, brain tissue, bloody clothing and crime scene photos, and the damaged human victims/survivors telling their stories.  My life was threatened and I started carrying a .45 auto, no permit.

Some years later, the Libyans sent a team to blow up my wedding in downtown Ankara Turkey.  They had a pile of soviet hand grenades when apprehended right outside.  (Just five days after we bombed Libya with F111s from RAF Lakenheath and Mildenhall 4/86).  I wasn't allowed to be armed over there, but began carrying very nice German switchblades.  My apartment was only a block from the Libyan embassy.

We are all a product of our environment and life experiences.  I firmly believe most people who do not own or like guns are only a home invasion, rape, murder, serious assault, violent robbery away from being second amendment supporters.  This is often said jokingly, but it is no joke.

I do my best to stay away from bad people and places, and I don't pick fights, but sometimes the trouble comes to you (or yours), and it can happen anywhere.  National crime statistics objectively reveal we are all at risk during our lifetimes (and not just some tiny risk).  I'll turn the other cheek and even run away if I can (but I won't abandon helpless people).  At the point of reasonable belief of imminent serious bodily injury or death, I'll shoot bad humans.  My life is considerably more important than the felon(s) offering me or others serious harm.  Law and justice and morality says I may do so with a clear conscience.  

But every man ought to do what he thinks is best.  

One other thing.

Charles Morse: Why is the rabbit unafraid?

Styles: 'Because he's smarter than the panther.

[DirtyDan]

Better make that sign out of Kevlar

Guns are bad ?

If you have guns we will send a squad over with bigger guns to lake yours

All animals are created equal

Some animals are more equal than others

Dan

[Woton]

Jess,

Thoughtful response, as always - and one clearly tempered by life experiences that I have not shared and likely can not truly appreciate.

The theme of this thread, however, was carrying guns in church.  The concept of the preacher in the pulpit with a gun under his robe and the ushers literally guarding the doors and otherwise "ready for action" is one I can not get my head wrapped around.

I do have a loaded gun in my nightstand and hope to be ready to protect hearth and home if ever called upon to do so.

That being said, I'm glad I did not live in the Dodge City days.  We moved away from that "gun on the hip" concept of law and order for a reason, and while s*** happens today (even in our churches) I have no desire to return to it.  Our society would NOT be better, IMHO.

WWJD??  Personally, I don't think he'd be packing... Luke 22: 47-51

[Slyk Willy]

Since "permission" is required by the presiding official by our state law, I carry with me a letter from our Pastor. there is also a copy of that signed letter in my member file at the church. We established that our Pastor is our recognized, "presiding official".

A simple letter will do.

I, _________, having authority, authorize ___________ the privilege to carry a concealed firearms or handguns on name of church property as well as inside all structures on said churches property. This authorization also applies to any church vehicles, leased or otherwise.

Signature of Presiding official____________
Date: _________

[The emperor has no clothes]

Jess,

Thoughtful response, as always - and one clearly tempered by life experiences that I have not shared and likely can not truly appreciate.

The theme of this thread, however, was carrying guns in church.  The concept of the preacher in the pulpit with a gun under his robe and the ushers literally guarding the doors and otherwise "ready for action" is one I can not get my head wrapped around.

I do have a loaded gun in my nightstand and hope to be ready to protect hearth and home if ever called upon to do so.

That being said, I'm glad I did not live in the Dodge City days.  We moved away from that "gun on the hip" concept of law and order for a reason, and while s*** happens today (even in our churches) I have no desire to return to it.  Our society would NOT be better, IMHO.

WWJD??  Personally, I don't think he'd be packing... Luke 22: 47-51

[MP]

Another thing.  Any group, church, school, etc., needs to know a response.

SO NOT just cower under your pew, desk, etc. if a gunman comes in.

Throw EVERYTHING you can get your hands on at him.  ATTACK him, charge him, with as many people as possible.

He is NOT expecting that response.  He may, or may not, fire at anyone.  Some may get hurt, but not a bunch like if cower under pew, and let him walk around killing at will.

This is EXACTLY why the three/four in France are being honored for stopping the killing on a train.  They bare handed ATTACKED, and took down, the gun man.

Most of what "experts" teach, are exactly the WRONG things to do.

[solo1]

The theme of this thread, however, was carrying guns in church.  QUOTE by Woton.

NO, my theme was NOT about carrying in church  The theme was meant to be SECURITY and readiness for situations.

Prevention where possible, awareness, and a PLAN if and when things go wrong. Carrying in church is only one of many options.

Thank you Jess for your valued insight.

Wayne

[Jess from VA]

One more thing:

Psycho, doped up, (and jihadist) murderers have clearly made it a practice to pick soft and easy targets to do their hunting.  They know they will only have limited time, and they want to do maximum damage in that limited time, and to get maximum exposure and fame.  I think they are also mostly cowards, so they also pick places with minimum chances to receive return fire or even physical resistance (look how many shoot themselves when responders arrive.... they planned it that way).  

If you follow the news, you know this has been schools, churches, movie theaters, civic centers, malls and workplaces.  People (and kids), all bunched up, with limited ability and space to run away.  Gun-free zones like schools is the single best (and worst) example.  (I avoid all such places, and don't like crowds, concerts, amusement parks, fireworks, parades, protests, etc either; I've seen my share of mobs in action.)  

A pastor is supposed to be a good shepherd to his flock.  This has many meanings, but knowing that a lunatic gunman could mow his flock down in a matter of minutes (that it has actually happened a number of times), it seems perfectly reasonable to me that he would carry a pistol under his robe.  And that he might enlist the aid of qualified parishioners to aid in this worthy cause.  Does this mean they are bloodthirsty or anxious to shoot anyone? Of course not.  But imagine the shame of taking no action (when you could have), hoping for the best, and having it actually happen.  Simply being prepared for a worst case scenario, certainly does not make you a part of the problem (or a poor Christian).  Indeed, it makes you a part of the solution.  

If you admit to having a firearm in your home for self preservation, how is having a firearm at church any different?  Churchgoers are no less worthy of protection than those in your home, and the church (open to all) is more at risk than your home, and has many more lives to protect than in your home.
 
There were no guns in Jesus' day, but he did attack and turn over tables and use a whip on the moneylenders he thought were despoiling the church.  And while there is some debate about the meaning, he also said.. And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one!  If he came back in today's world with some sort of mission, I would not be surprised if he carried a pistol too (assuming he lacked some spiritual power of self defense).  You love your neighbor, do unto others, turn the other cheek, and bless the peacemakers, but you do not lay down and die at the hands of murderers.  And if you are unarmed, and unprepared, and unwilling to stand up against violence, you will lay down and die at the hands of murderers if you are unlucky enough to run squarely against them.  I find no moral dilemma in the idea of a good Christian (or any good man)(or any pastor)(or Jesus himself), going armed with both the ability and willingness to use lawful and morally justifiable violence against those who would kill or do serious unlawful violence against them (or any under their protection).

I apologize to the more devout and better educated members on the subject of Jesus and his teachings.  My schooling on the subject was quite some time ago.

The statistical drop in violent crime with the nationwide rise in concealed carry is documented and undeniable.  Cities don't count, the Dem machines in cities have been able to limit gun ownership by law abiding citizens there, and those citizens have been turned into wholly dependent individuals, for everything.  Indeed, that generations long dependence is a large part of the reason for the big spike in urban crime at present.  You owe me, it ain't enough, I want more, the cops are our enemy, rich people are our enemy, white people are our enemy..... it's everyone's fault but mine.  And to stir up his base, simply to solidify political power and votes for the agenda, the Zero (and his Justice Dept) has been throwing gas on those flames for some time.  And the hell with the consequences.

With regard to the concept of returning to the Wild West, law abiding citizens (and gun owners) have not contributed to or caused, and are not responsible for violent crime in this Country.  The criminals are.  If there was no significant violent crime, most would not choose to go armed; it's uncomfortable, it limits your freedom (to act and say and do what you might otherwise do, and sometimes to go where you would like to go), and brings with it serious responsibility.  Yet, despite the warnings of blood in the street, the nationwide numbers of CCW holder's misconduct is minuscule (and most of that has been poor judgment, not wrongfully shooting people).  So today there may be hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of law abiding armed and polite people going about their business, wronging no one, not showing a weapon, and not disturbing the peace.  If the Wild West ever returns, it will be delivered by the criminals, not the law abiding citizens.  

Welcome Wayne (and if you ever want to run anything by me, fire me a PM and I'll do my best)

[Valkjerk]

WOW!!!! I'm going to have my pastor read this thread and monitor his response. If he says no guns in my church, I'll have to say goodby to that church.

[JimC]

We are all a product of our environment and life experiences.  I firmly believe most people who do not own or like guns are only a home invasion, rape, murder, serious assault, violent robbery away from being second amendment supporters.

AMEN! ^^^^^


Jim
Retired police officer, 26 years on the job of being MINUTES AWAY when needed.

[solo1]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

I've bad the pastor of my church out to our shooting range. He believes and practices the 2nd Amendment. He gave a Glock to his daughter when she was interning in Chicago. He knew about the stringent laws in Chicago.

Our small city has many conservatives and independents.  Our city ordinances reflect that.  So does our well equipped police force.