I can't believe how stupid people and the LAW have become.

[Robert]

Marriage has been to have children and give the family a good stable environment to raise children. Homosexuals do not procreate. So for roughly 400 years since the US has been around and time before that marriage was a man and a woman. So now how did homosexual marriage NOT change the definition of marriage? Homosexuality was not an accepted till the 90's it was considered deviant behavior. The only reason it changed is because the homosexuals got one Psychiatrist to take them off the DSM. That alone is why we have gays accepted today.

The Court’s majority opinion, written by Anthony Kennedy, shows a clear consciousness of what the Court is doing. Referring to the traditional view, Kennedy writes, “Marriage, in their view, is by its nature a gender-differentiated union of man and woman. This view long has been held—and continues to be held—in good faith by reasonable and sincere people here and throughout the world” (my emphasis). It is this view which Court’s majority declares is now obsolete.

In the Court’s view, marriage should no longer be considered to have an essence or nature but is a mere social convention, indeed, whatever the Court declares it to be. end quote

So social convention changed the definition of marriage and took it out of Gods definition and put it in mans.

Chief Justice John Roberts summed up the Constitutional question by saying,
If you are among the many Americans—of whatever sexual orientation—who favor expanding same-sex marriage, by all means celebrate today’s decision . . . But do not celebrate the Constitution. It had nothing to do with it.

Congress should have stepped in and they did not. This was not accepted by majority opinion that is why the homosexual agenda took it to the courts. They took a shot and won.

What I find so interesting about most liberals arguments and Dino's also is that their Constitutional rights are being violated by the religious preaching. But they would have NO Constitutional rights if it were not for those Christians wanting to make a better life for themselves outside King Georges rule that gave them that very document that they base their claims on. That document was formed in a time when they could not have foreseen the removal of Christian values we have today.

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that

           they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that

they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,


If you have no creator and are a surf of the government then you have no rights except what the government says you have. This is the form of government we are heading into today the one that the liberals in thinking its giving them more rights is actually taking them away.

The governments thus declaring loudly WE give the rights and WE will establish what WE think is fair. So when this liberal movement gets tiresome to those in power they will squash it like a bug since you have no say at all and are NOT endowed by rights from your Creator and it no one spoke up for religious freedom. Or if there is another form of government in power you live to those rules.

Government should not depend on mans whims for its foundation and powerful men should not kick the standards already there off the books for personal gain. The Bible is a standard and we have come very far off that standard and that is what the US is built on that standard. So as the standard goes so goes the country. We have bent Gods laws to accommodate man. We have taken Gods gifts and freedom and taken them away and distorted them so as to accommodate some pretty nasty things and self serving motives. If we cannot keep these laws then what hope is there for this country?

Christians are the ones that have the rights given them buy God and are told to share those rights with others and care for them. No other besides the Jews have the same purpose in their religion and have basically started countries for that express purpose.

This country was started with a Purpose and by Christians to give all freedom and to live by the word of God. To respect and not enslave men to make all men free and able to live without unjust rule.

The allowed ignorance and lack of respect for what this country is and stands for is a cancer to society and will eventually bring it to an end. This says nothing of a new generation putting their rights in the hands of men rather than viewing them coming from God. 

[Gavin_Sons]

Snake speaks with a forked tongue.  Sin is a human thing.  Fido doesn't sin.

Again, incorrect.  If god created all, sin is part of the all.  It is humans thatchoose the option of sin, for god created the option but left it to freedom of choice as to whether or not the humans would use it

Just like they choose the option of being a faggot, or gay, or queer, whichever term you prefer. It's a choice

[The emperor has no clothes]

Dang, I've been gone for 3 days riding to Zion. After reading all of this I'm glad I missed it. 

[fudgie]

I don't thing 2 male humans humping is a dominance thing.  ???

Wanna see at the next round up? 

[Jess from VA]

I don't thing 2 male humans humping is a dominance thing.  ???

Wanna see at the next round up? 

Try any penitentiary. 

[Gavin_Sons]

I don't thing 2 male humans humping is a dominance thing.  ???

Wanna see at the next round up? 

Dont threaten me with a good time.

[dinosnake]

@Robert:

You see, there it is again.  The convenient untruth that Christians tell themselves that the country is "Christian-based", and founded by Christians.  

Let's look at that Declaration of Independence, for example.

Principle author: Thomas Jefferson, Episcopalian:

" Influenced by Deist authors during his college years Jefferson abandoned "orthodox" Christianity after his review of New Testament teachings...Jefferson was firmly anticlerical, writing in "every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty … they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon."

(my point, exactly)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#Religion

And as for the rest of the Founding Fathers: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

A large variety of beliefs and churches.  They were believers, again, no problem with this.  The PROBLEM is the utterly CONSTANT attempt by American Christians to usurp the rights of everyone by making claims that the country has always been tailored to their needs, their viewpoints, their outlook and their beliefs, regardless of the fact that to do so would violate the First Amendment, specifically written so that WOULDN'T happen.  

The Founding Fathers had had enough of Anglicanism, including repression of other religions and the declaration that Christian churches be banned, so by coming to America they intentionally got away from all that and refused to allow it to happen again.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformation#Puritans_and_Roman_Catholics

Quite a mess for anyone who did not toe the line.  

They quite intentionally wrote that, yes, their beliefs were very important to them but they respected the fact that there were many beliefs present, so they wanted to guarantee equal rights for all.

Anyway, good gentlemen, it was an interesting debate!  Absolutely no harm, no foul.  For those not keeping track, religion lost the debate but that does not mean that, if one believes, one should give it up.  It simply shows why other individuals have given up religion, or have differing viewpoints on their religion, so I hope it brings some understanding to their point of view and that it is as valid a position as the devout believer, and why it counts in our political landscape.

[Moonshot_1]

Don't think religion lost the debate at all.

There is no debate that the Founding Fathers, to the last man, were God fearing people and that they believed, and strongly, in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
In that sense they were Christian and that contributed greatly to their efforts in founding this Country.

There is no doubt that they had great disdain for the political side of religion and the Church (s) of the day.

In those days the Church or Churches in the region were the centers of the political universe. It was in this sense that the great debate raged as the Church and its leaders would apply their power for their gain.

But there is a great difference between Religion (The belief) and The Church (The political arm of the belief)

The "Separation of Church and State" speaks to the Political interaction between the two. Not the basic belief.

As for me, I am readily defined as Agnostic.
I have no desire to follow any Church nor its politics.
I stand in absolute wonder every day of the Universe around me and delight in the constant discoveries within.
I find that those who follow a Church and Religion and find within it great solace, strength, and joy are great people. They should continue to follow their hearts and share their souls.   

While the Country may not have been founded on the political principals of a Christian Church it was founded on many principles  of the Christian religion. Many of those principles shared by many other Religious beliefs as well.

 

[Valkorado]

Quote from fork-tongued Snake:
"For those not keeping track, religion lost the debate..."



         

You are declaring victory after contradicting yourself, or do you fail to realize that you did so?    

Oh, well.  My sinful dog is about to read a book to me, so I gotta run.  

[Robert]

Dino you declared it over when you made some very misleading  or incomplete statements about the founders and religion itself. Not to mention I do not prescribe to religion but relationship with Jesus, very different things. But for the sake of discussion we will call it religion.

Jefferson's beliefs of Jesus were never in question in fact Jefferson had his own bible he made of all Jesus teachings and only His teachings. I don't say he was a true christian but he managed to benefit the church with money, legislation and every kind of help. When he was in and out of Government.

I view Jefferson very much like I view you probably had Christianity pushed on him and didn't really want it. I had also said that to be a government employee you had to be a Christian. I don't think you read this.

The Mayflower compact ruled this country for 150 years before the Constitution.

    In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

    Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.
    In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11th of November, in the year of the reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, 1620.

The church at that time in England was used as a control and people were not allowed to own bibles. When some tried to print bibles they were killed thrown in jail. The priests power was only second to the king and they worked together to control the people.

When people started to read the bible it opened their eyes to the repression that they had been subject to and the fact that they owned nothing and were not free men. The true church at that time was an underground affair.

This is at the misleading of your statements

The Founding Fathers did not want one state religion to take over and it be another church like the one they came from in England that was under the kings control and not a true church but one step or method of control.

What you quoted was in the 1500's the time when the Queens and Kings of England were controlling the church and further in the quote it says the underground church was growing. A light bulb should go on in your head and say that is why they left England. It also does not have anything to do with current government except to say the people who started this government were Christians.

If you don't know history or the bible and take things out of context you can make it sound like anything.

I understand your not liking religion, I too still hate religion and at one time was like you, but at least don't let your disdain taint the truth of what you speak. Learn the truth and just accept you don't want to know or accept Jesus. Its a personal choice not to know a person and that does not need to be rationalized with false facts.

[dinosnake]

Quote from fork-tongued Snake:
"For those not keeping track, religion lost the debate..."



         

You are declaring victory after contradicting yourself, or do you fail to realize that you did so?    

Oh, well.  My sinful dog is about to read a book to me, so I gotta run.  

You missed the conversation, and why you think there was a contradiction.

Again, incorrect.  If god created all, sin is part of the all.  It is humans that choose the option of sin, for god created the option but left it to freedom of choice as to whether or not the humans would use it
You managed to contradict yourself in one sentence.  You are a living, breathing contradiction.
Animals do not read or comprehend law, nor do they comprehend sin.

EXACTLY RIGHT!  And that's why religion lost the debate, because you still believe that anything that does not agree with the religious viewpoint is a "contradiction"

u have now gone off the deep end! they are animals doing an instinct, they are not homosexuals

Exactly.  Animals act by instinct.

Sin is a human thing.  Fido doesn't sin.

Exactly.  Animals do not sin, as accordance to religion, as animals have no "soul", etc. etc.

But yet not a single person denies what animals do.  You try to come up with Christian-acceptable excuses for the activities

Really? 10% of the animal population is gay? I believe 10% of the human race choose to be gay. Animals sole porpose of life is to breed and populate. When 2 male dogs are caught humping it is bacause of dominance.  I don't thing 2 male humans humping is a dominance thing.  

but there it is, the homosexual sex is HAPPENING WITHOUT DEBATE, and with plenty of visual proof.  But if animals only act on instinct, and animals can't sin, THEN HOW CAN THEY PARTICIPATE IN HOMOSEXUAL ACTS IF GOD DID NOT PROGRAM THEM TO DO SO?!

Game over.


I didn't contradict myself.  You simply don't want to accept the reasoning.  You try to place tags that make you comfortable, "Oh, it's just a dominance game!", etc etc, because you can't deny the physical reality of the event.  So you make it comfortable for yourselves with absolutely silly personal appeasements.  WHY they do it doesn't matter, they did it.  As the documentary I linked to so aptly notes, Christians couldn't handle the truth so you lie to yourselves.

Next,

You constantly violate the First Commandment by placing "The Book About God, by Man" (remove the fancy name you've applied, "Bible", and that's what it is) in the same level of importance as god, itself.  You deny the living god around you by quoting what man wrote about god.  Everything in the Bible except one thing is written in the third party

"And god said to..."
"And Jesus said..."
"And god..."

The only thing written by god's own hand is the Ten Commandments, handed down to Moses.  Everything else is written by man about god, as recollections or history, and some of them by anonymous writers, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible

The problem is that almost all (?) modern religions are stagnant.  Although we have a better understanding of our world, and if you are religious you should accept that better understanding as becoming closer to god by better comprehending the way he works through the universe he created, instead you take the word of man as equal, or sometimes even, greater importance and then make up circular logic or outright denials to keep both the living hand of god, the universe, and your written texts valid.  You therefore put the writings of man on the level of god himself, fundamentally violating the First Commandment.

If you would have questioned more, and blindly accepted less, you would see this.

[Robert]

A wonderful read on George Washington and the founding of this country


Upon Washington's return to Fort Cumberland (120 miles from the battle scene), he wrote a letter to his mother to alay any fears she would have, as news of the rout had preceded them. On the same day (July 18, 1755) he also wrote to his brother, John A. Washington:

    "As I have heard since my arrival at this place [Fort Cumberland], a circumstantial account of my death and dying speech, I take this early opportunity of contradicting the first, and of assuring you that I have not as yet composed the latter. But, by the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability or expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet escaped unhurt, although death was leveling my companions on every side of me!"

But wait, it gets even better. 15 years later, an old respected Indian Chief sought out council with Washington, when he heard that he was in the area. Through an interpreter he explained that he had set out on a long journey to meet Washington personally, and to speak to him about the battle 15 years earlier. He said:

    "I am a cheif and ruler over my tribes. My influence extends to the waters of the great lakes and to the far blue mountains. I have traveled a long and weary path that I might see the young warrior of the great battle. It was on the day when the white man's blood mixed with the streams of our forest that I first beheld this chief [Washington]. I called to my young men and said, mark yon tall and daring warrior? He is not of the red-coat tribe--he hath an Indian's wisdom, and his warriors fight as we do--himself is alone exposed. Quick, let your aim be certain, and he dies. Our rifles were leveled, rifles which, but for you, knew not how to miss--'twas all in vain, a power mightier far than we, shielded you. Seeing you were under the special guardship of the Great Spirit, we immediately ceased to fire at you. I am old and soon shall be gathered to the great council fire of my fathers in the land of shades, but ere I go, there is something bids me speak in the voice of prophecy. Listen! The Great Spirit protects that man [pointing at Washington], and guides his destinies--he will become the chief of nations, and a people yet unborn will hail him as the founder of a mighty empire. I am come to pay homage to the man who is the particular favorite of Heaven, and who can never die in battle."

This is an AMAZING account of God's divine protection over George Washington!! And there is another piece of evidence that Jesus Christ preserved George Washington for greatness.

80 years after this battle, a gold seal that belonged to Washington, that bore his initial's, was found on that very field. Right where he had been moving back and forth on horseback, relaying the orders for Braddock, amidst the hail storm of bullets. The gold seal had been shot off of his body, by a bullet!

[Valkorado]

Quote from fork-tongued Snake:
"For those not keeping track, religion lost the debate..."



         

You are declaring victory after contradicting yourself, or do you fail to realize that you did so?    

Oh, well.  My sinful dog is about to read a book to me, so I gotta run.  

You missed the conversation, and why you think there was a contradiction.

Again, incorrect.  If god created all, sin is part of the all.  It is humans that choose the option of sin, for god created the option but left it to freedom of choice as to whether or not the humans would use it
You managed to contradict yourself in one sentence.  You are a living, breathing contradiction.
Animals do not read or comprehend law, nor do they comprehend sin.

EXACTLY RIGHT!  And that's why religion lost the debate, because you still believe that anything that does not agree with the religious viewpoint is a "contradiction"

u have now gone off the deep end! they are animals doing an instinct, they are not homosexuals

Exactly.  Animals act by instinct.

Sin is a human thing.  Fido doesn't sin.

Exactly.  Animals do not sin, as accordance to religion, as animals have no "soul", etc. etc.

But yet not a single person denies what animals do.  You try to come up with Christian-acceptable excuses for the activities

Really? 10% of the animal population is gay? I believe 10% of the human race choose to be gay. Animals sole porpose of life is to breed and populate. When 2 male dogs are caught humping it is bacause of dominance.  I don't thing 2 male humans humping is a dominance thing.  

but there it is, the homosexual sex is HAPPENING WITHOUT DEBATE, and with plenty of visual proof.  But if animals only act on instinct, and animals can't sin, THEN HOW CAN THEY PARTICIPATE IN HOMOSEXUAL ACTS IF GOD DID NOT PROGRAM THEM TO DO SO?!

Game over.


I didn't contradict myself.  You simply don't want to accept the reasoning.  You try to place tags that make you comfortable, "Oh, it's just a dominance game!", etc etc, because you can't deny the physical reality of the event.  So you make it comfortable for yourselves with absolutely silly personal appeasements.  WHY they do it doesn't matter, they did it.  As the documentary I linked to so aptly notes, Christians couldn't handle the truth so you lie to yourselves.

Next,

You constantly violate the First Commandment by placing "The Book About God, by Man" (remove the fancy name you've applied, "Bible", and that's what it is) in the same level of importance as god, itself.  You deny the living god around you by quoting what man wrote about god.  Everything in the Bible except one thing is written in the third party

"And god said to..."
"And Jesus said..."
"And god..."

The only thing written by god's own hand is the Ten Commandments, handed down to Moses.  Everything else is written by man about god, as recollections or history, and some of them by anonymous writers, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible

The problem is that almost all (?) modern religions are stagnant.  Although we have a better understanding of our world, and if you are religious you should accept that better understanding as becoming closer to god by better comprehending the way he works through the universe he created, instead you take the word of man as equal, or sometimes even, greater importance and then make up circular logic or outright denials to keep both the living hand of god, the universe, and your written texts valid.  You therefore put the writings of man on the level of god himself, fundamentally violating the First Commandment.

If you would have questioned more, and blindly accepted less, you would see this.

Wow, I'm glad you're finally acknowledging God's existence, and His writing of the Commandments!  Another convert! 

[dinosnake]

Wow, I'm glad you're finally acknowledging God's existence, and His writing of the Commandments!  Another convert! 

Lol 

No, what I am saying is that, if you decide to believe in god, which is a personal choice and should always remain that way, do something that the church actually teaches against: use rational thought in your beliefs.

The religious right constantly wants to talk about how [they] believe the foundation of our country is based upon religious views.  Most of our important documents were written by, or with the direct input of, Thomas Jefferson, an actual Founding Father and one of great importance.  Why don't you learn and read about what Jefferson actually believed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_religion

Oh, look, how interesting!  Almost exactly what I've been saying to you (serendipity, I'm only reading it myself now, but the symmetry is easy to understand).

Believe in god if that is your choice, you have the right and there is nothing bad about it.  Indeed,  done correctly it is nothing but good - understand the morality, the true morality, and make it your own.  But understand that the Church and god are not the same!

Jesus preached love and acceptance of all.  He went to the leper colony to pass blessings and love to those who felt unloved.  So why are "Christians" holding so many other peoples in their eyes as hated souls?  For all too many modern Christians, they hate gays, Jews, atheists, "liberals",  Muslims, several ethnic groups that aren't themselves...and this is "Christian"??!  Jesus would certainly not approve.

And then many Christians have been told, by their church sadly, to doubt science.  Doubt the discoveries of the dinosaurs and their carbon dating, maybe doubt global climate change, doubt the points brought up here regarding homosexual acts in animals.  Why??  A true believer wouldn't be scared of science, they would/could see science as gaining a better understanding of the actual hand of god at work in the universe around us.  But, instead, the church fights against the learning - remember how Plato, Socrates, et al were persecuted by the church for, well, 'knowing too much'? 

The church put the Book of God (again, written by man) ahead of the actual hand of god.  If you are a believer in god then accepting the world and universe around you should be natural, as these things are here because god made them so.  That should cause no fear.  That should be celebrated as better understanding how god works.  Not fought against because words say otherwise.

So, if you are going to believe, believe using your MIND.  Rational religion.  The two, rational + religion, are NOT opposites.  Then can be one and the same, as Jefferson showed.  Use your god as a handle to learn the truth, of everything, not as a lock to keep you away from how things truly are.

[Valkorado]

Snake quote:
"A true believer wouldn't be scared of science, they would/could see science as gaining a better understanding of the actual hand of god at work in the universe around us".

Scared of science?  I marvel at His creation every day!  Some of our greatest scientists were, or are, believers.

I agree that He is the master scientist, the Creator.  Would a "god particle" exist without God?  Perhaps a snap of His fingers brought about the big bang.

It seems you acknowledge creation, but not the Creator.  It would seem that your issue is with His law, not His science.

I have no fear of natural science, and I strive to follow His law.  Sometimes I slip, but I still strive.

[Robert]

Actually the Bible is NOT a 3rd person book, I think what you miss is the power of the Spirit of God.

Luk 12:11  "And when you are brought to trial in the synagogues and before rulers and authorities, don't worry about how to defend yourself or what to say,
Luk 12:12  for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what needs to be said."
Exo_28:3  Instruct all the skilled craftsmen whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom. Have them make garments for Aaron that will distinguish him as a priest set apart for My service.

Deu_34:9  Now Joshua son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him. So the people of Israel obeyed him, doing just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Isa_11:2  And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him—the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

The Bible is a book written through man but by Gods own Spirit.

You can love all but NOT accept their ways, we are not to take part in the things God says are wrong. It does not mean you don't care for the person but you don't have to accept wrong ways into your life either. Why is acceptance to you accepting peoples wrong ways according to the Bible.

Science does not accept and tries to exclude Christianity because its mans religion but Christianity accepts science. Christians just don't accept the infallibility of science. Do you remember when schools taught we were decedents of apes, and gave a time line and now science through DNA has found that to be false.  The God particle according to science was supposed to be the answer to giving mass to things but it was something very different.

And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
So it doesn't matter what religion teaches if we have  the Spirit of God living in us then we will know the truth and the Truth shall make us free.

God has never left us alone to conceive things on our own. He left His spirit here to teach and guide us He knows all things and will reveal all things to us. We only have to hear Him. knowledge will come and go and science will come and go but the word of God has stood the test of time and will be here after you and me are gone. When you don't know God its easy to get caught up in the world with all the bells and whistles or being one of the crowd. But when you die or lying on your death bed what discovery will be a comfort to you? Where will you be, and who will you answer to? That is really what the whole thing boils down to. We are eternal, creation is not, even scientific discoveries are the ones allowed by God. So how is it that in all this knowledge you have never known the God that loves you? Had a personal relationship with Him and gained a different perspective on life?  Knowing about God is not knowing God personally.

[dinosnake]

Christians just don't accept the infallibility of science. Do you remember when schools taught we were decedents of apes, and gave a time line and now science through DNA has found that to be false.

I missed that.  Can you show this?  I never heard of the DNA link to apes being discredited at all, actually quite the reverse - thanks to modern genetic analysis, we now know that our DNA matches apes between 95% to 98%.

Thanks.

But to answer your reply, the "Spirit of God" still cannot be shown to actually be...god.  If god visibly makes something work or happen, and it goes against what we have been told is the "Spirit of God", then whom are we to believe: god or the "Spirit"?  There should only be ONE answer to that question, and it shouldn't be what man says.

[dinosnake]

Snake quote:
"A true believer wouldn't be scared of science, they would/could see science as gaining a better understanding of the actual hand of god at work in the universe around us".

Scared of science?  I marvel at His creation every day!  Some of our greatest scientists were, or are, believers.

I agree that He is the master scientist, the Creator.  Would a "god particle" exist without God?  Perhaps a snap of His fingers brought about the big bang.

It seems you acknowledge creation, but not the Creator.  It would seem that your issue is with His law, not His science.

I have no fear of natural science, and I strive to follow His law.  Sometimes I slip, but I still strive.

But you know I am correct, the church has been scared of hard science since the Enlightenment (and we have historical proof of this through its various witch hunts of famous individuals).  Structured religions seem to get in the way of truth, either about god or about the universe (or about their own internal operations...ah-HEM, scandals), they seem to serve their own interests.

[Gryphon Rider]

(My apologies for possibly repeating what has been posted by others as I was writing this.)

No, what I am saying is that, if you decide to believe in god, which is a personal choice and should always remain that way, do something that the church actually teaches against: use rational thought in your beliefs.

I am not sure if your exposure to "the church" is limited to specific sects that teach against "rational thought," or that you classify the church teaching you have been exposed to as being against rational thought simply because it uses a rationale based in a world view that is very different than your own.  You would attest that, because you consider yourself a deep thinker, and consider only the testimony of nature as irrefutable, only you and those who substantially agree with you are capable of classifying an idea or system of thought as "rational."  You also only accept very specific definitions of certain words, and if people use those words in the common sense, rather than in the sense you understand them, they are wrong.

The religious right constantly wants to talk about how [they] believe the foundation of our country is based upon religious views.  Most of our important documents were written by, or with the direct input of, Thomas Jefferson, an actual Founding Father and one of great importance.  Why don't you learn and read about what Jefferson actually believed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_religion

Oh, look, how interesting!  Almost exactly what I've been saying to you (serendipity, I'm only reading it myself now, but the symmetry is easy to understand).

I have little to say about the US's Christian foundation, not being an American, other than the "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" part having a foundation in European philosophy rather than in Jewish or Christian scripture, and the importance that Americans give their Declaration of Independence and Constitution, many seeming to revere those documents more highly than Scripture.  I am also well aware that Jefferson's theology is far removed from orthodox Christian theology.  I suspect that you, dinosnake, have a lot in common with him, philosophically.

Believe in god if that is your choice, you have the right and there is nothing bad about it.  Indeed,  done correctly it is nothing but good - understand the morality, the true morality, and make it your own.  But understand that the Church and god are not the same!

I don't think that any Christian believer thinks that God and the church are the same.  God is the creator and sustainer of the universe, and the church is the second group of people that He has called His own, the first being Israel (a whole other issue).  Some Christians consider the tradition and authority of the church to be on equal footing with Scripture when it comes to their determination of truth.  The Protestant Reformation called Christians to view only Scripture as ultimately authoritative, in the absence of irrefutable new revelation from God Himself.

Jesus preached love and acceptance of all.  He went to the leper colony to pass blessings and love to those who felt unloved.  So why are "Christians" holding so many other peoples in their eyes as hated souls?  For all too many modern Christians, they hate gays, Jews, atheists, "liberals",  Muslims, several ethnic groups that aren't themselves...and this is "Christian"??!  Jesus would certainly not approve.

Jesus did indeed preach that we should exhibit love to all, particularly towards our enemies, and that we should have compassion for the suffering.  He was very concerned about how we treat each other.  Many who wear the "Christian" label stray far from His teaching in this regard.  Christ wants his bride, the church, to be without blemish, but we are covered with the black marks of our unfaithfulness to His teaching and example.  His loudest message, however, was the call to repentance and belief.  The purpose of Christ's incarnation was to reconcile man to God.  Our chief and most egregious sin is against God himself.  The first three (some would argue four) of the Ten Commandments are about fidelity to God.  Christians' message to those who are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ should be one of love towards them, but also truth about their sinful state and its effect upon their eternal destiny should their sin not be forgiven through Christ's work at the cross.

And then many Christians have been told, by their church sadly, to doubt science.  Doubt the discoveries of the dinosaurs and their carbon dating, maybe doubt global climate change, doubt the points brought up here regarding homosexual acts in animals.  Why??  A true believer wouldn't be scared of science, they would/could see science as gaining a better understanding of the actual hand of god at work in the universe around us.  But, instead, the church fights against the learning - remember how Plato, Socrates, et al were persecuted by the church for, well, 'knowing too much'?

Christians should doubt any theory that opposes what God teaches through Scripture.  Confirmed empirical evidence is irrefutable, even to the informed Christian mind.  To say that some churchmen throughout history have fought against learning would certainly be true, but to apply it to "the church" universally is disingenuous.

I had no idea dinosaurs had been carbon dated.  I had thought carbon dating of anything beyond thousands of years was unreliable, and that it only applied to organic material, not to the mineral material that dinosaur fossils are composed of.  Maybe some day I'll Google that.

I'm pretty sure that Plato and Socrates lived hundreds of years before Christ, and thus were long buried before the church had opportunity to persecute them.  Certainly "the church" has persecuted and executed many that proclaimed "heretical" ideas, including Christians, but history says Plato died of natural causes and Socrates was executed by poison at age 71 by the Athenian government.

The church put the Book of God (again, written by man) ahead of the actual hand of god.  If you are a believer in god then accepting the world and universe around you should be natural, as these things are here because god made them so.  That should cause no fear.  That should be celebrated as better understanding how god works.  Not fought against because words say otherwise.

What you say would be true if the Bible were simply an number of men's understanding and best guesses at the nature of God and/or life (isn't that what philosophy represents?), and that the handiwork of God were equivalent to the hand of God, and that nature revealed much more about Him than his power and divine nature, that we should worship Him as God, the creator and sustainer of everything.  But creation isn't the Creator.  And the Bible isn't merely man's thoughts written down.  The books of the Bible were written over a period of about 1500 years, by somewhere around 30 different authors, in several different literary forms, in three (that I can immediately think of) different languages, that together tell a progressively revealed, consistent story.  Some of the authors were, in effect, doing dictation for God ("write this," "thus sayeth the Lord"), while others were moved by the Holy Spirit to write His message in their own words, making use of the author's style and vocabulary.  The vast majority of them were confirmed by God as His prophets or apostles, often by miraculous signs.  I don't think that God authenticated Socrates or Plato as speaking for Him (I don't think they claimed this) by giving them the power to command seas or rivers to part, or people to be creatively (as opposed to by normal process of nature) healed or raised from the dead.

So, if you are going to believe, believe using your MIND.  Rational religion.  The two, rational + religion, are NOT opposites.  Then can be one and the same, as Jefferson showed.  Use your god as a handle to learn the truth, of everything, not as a lock to keep you away from how things truly are.

I think I will trust the written and confirmed revelation of the Creator of the Universe rather than the ideas of those who have created nothing from nothing, and who have created a circular house of cards for their foundation, then gave it a good coating of parging to make it look solid.  (Maybe not the most elegant description.  Sorry)

[Robert]

A team of scientists comparing the full genomes of the two species concluded that most Europeans and Asians have between 1 to 4 percent Neanderthal DNA. Indigenous sub-Saharan Africans have no Neanderthal DNA because their ancestors did not migrate through Eurasia.
But
Humans are related to every other species on Earth. The genes of organisms that look very different are surprisingly similar. For example, human DNA sequences are over 95% identical to chimpanzee sequences. Humans and mice share nearly 90 percent of human DNA. Humans and dogs share 84 percent of their DNA. Humans and birds are a different matter and share a lot of DNA 65%. and last we share around 50% identical to banana sequences so maybe that explains it. 

That does not mean we are direct decedents and you can twist numbers to sound different than they are.

If the Spirit goes against what we have been told then you have to ask yourself are you a quasi believer able to judge the Spirit of God. That is unless you have a specific example. I would also say that the Spirit of God will not go against the teachings of God. But there are things that we as humans can only understand when its made clear to us. Even salvation is not something we choose but are chosen for and our minds and hearts are made to understand and accept, even question our need for salvation.

The longer I walk with God the more I understand that there is nothing not under His control. As with Job satan had to ask God to be allowed to touch Job and his family.

[dinosnake]

If the Spirit goes against what we have been told then you have to ask yourself are you a quasi believer able to judge the Spirit of God. That is unless you have a specific example. I would also say that the Spirit of God will not go against the teachings of God. But there are things that we as humans can only understand when its made clear to us. Even salvation is not something we choose but are chosen for and our minds and hearts are made to understand and accept, even question our need for salvation.

But that only goes back to what I've been telling you: the church has you brainwashed.  The church tells you that it stands for, and speaks for, the "Spirit of God", even when that "Spirit" directly contradicts the reality that god has created in front of you.

So you quote Scripture rather than say, "Hmm.  God apparently made this happen, this way.  Why am I doubting it and referring to a writing??"

Think, man, think.  If your god is everywhere, and everything, then it is easy to see.  You don't need anyone else, or anything else, to tell you how this god works...unless they are doing so for their own means.  Quoting Scripture when you don't understand reality, and then saying the SCRIPTURE is to be believed over what is facing you, front and center, is NOT accepting god.

[dinosnake]

Thank you Griffon Rider for a nice reply, and you are correct in my errors, I am at work right now and writing quickly in between work jobs, on quick breaks, and I picked 2 people who popped in my head but are 100% dead wrong.  Bleh, my bad 

I still would like an explanation of when the Bible says one thing, and reality says another, WHY should people believe the Bible?  Saying that it is the "Spirit of God" when it is obviously NOT matching what "god" has, quite apparently, done is, well, silly.  You are told to believe so unconditionally that people don't question when it is apparently WRONG, and it has been proven to be wrong before. 

Anyway, I wanted to say (and I don't have much time, busy busy!) that you can see that I'm not ignorant to Christianity, as some people thought: I actually got legitimate religious instructional education in childhood from nuns and fathers.  And this is why I'm atheist 

[Jess from VA]

An interesting debate.  But no one will be converting to the other side.... will they?

In the spirit of good fellowship, I think we could give the Snake a good full dunk baptism, should he chose to attend one of our gatherings.  But after 3-5 minutes, he will need to be let up.  

[dinosnake]

An interesting debate.  But no one will be converting to the other side.... will they?

In the spirit of good fellowship, I think we could give the Snake a good full dunk baptism, should he chose to attend one of our gatherings.  But after 3-5 minutes, he will need to be let up.  

lol    Like I [impied], I'm already baptized.  I'm atheist, converted from Christianity.  I'm 100% heathen 

[Jess from VA]

An interesting debate.  But no one will be converting to the other side.... will they?

In the spirit of good fellowship, I think we could give the Snake a good full dunk baptism, should he chose to attend one of our gatherings.  But after 3-5 minutes, he will need to be let up.  

lol    Like I [impied], I'm already baptized.  I'm atheist, converted from Christianity.  I'm 100% heathen 

Actually, you are probably far from heathen.  In all likelihood, the full panoply of good quality human values remain intact.  You just have a problem with faith, and organized religion (and perhaps one or two main tenants) .   

[Robert]

If the Spirit goes against what we have been told then you have to ask yourself are you a quasi believer able to judge the Spirit of God. That is unless you have a specific example. I would also say that the Spirit of God will not go against the teachings of God. But there are things that we as humans can only understand when its made clear to us. Even salvation is not something we choose but are chosen for and our minds and hearts are made to understand and accept, even question our need for salvation.

But that only goes back to what I've been telling you: the church has you brainwashed.  The church tells you that it stands for, and speaks for, the "Spirit of God", even when that "Spirit" directly contradicts the reality that god has created in front of you.

So you quote Scripture rather than say, "Hmm.  God apparently made this happen, this way.  Why am I doubting it and referring to a writing??"

Think, man, think.  If your god is everywhere, and everything, then it is easy to see.  You don't need anyone else, or anything else, to tell you how this god works...unless they are doing so for their own means.  Quoting Scripture when you don't understand reality, and then saying the SCRIPTURE is to be believed over what is facing you, front and center, is NOT accepting god.

You really don't know me, I like you am not a real fan of most churches.    I did not learn who God was from church and the church does not tell me the way to go, or what to do. I got saved outside of church and learned of God outside church by wanting to know who my Father really was. I was baptized in a sink and received the Holy Spirit when some church elders laid hands on me. I see Gods work all around me and yes I recognize it but I also recognize the works of man and the enemy and the boasting of man. The bible says we have no need of anyone to teach you but the Spirit will reveal all things to you, so you are correct. Probably not for the same reason.

We read the Bible to not be mislead when we don't know the God we serve or when we don't know the voice of His Spirit. We allow God to talk and reveal things to us by reading in one of the many ways we communicate with God. I know my friends and I know when they talk to me and now don't have to wonder about their integrity. If they say something I know what they are telling me is true. The same as God I now know Him and His voice and have the confidence in this to base my life upon it. The Catholic church tells you you cannot have a relationship with God but that is not true and its not in the Bible.

Jesus died so we can have a direct access to our Father hence the tearing of the veil in the Temple.

[98valk]

An interesting debate.  But no one will be converting to the other side.... will they?

In the spirit of good fellowship, I think we could give the Snake a good full dunk baptism, should he chose to attend one of our gatherings.  But after 3-5 minutes, he will need to be let up.  

lol    Like I [impied], I'm already baptized.  I'm atheist, converted from Christianity.  I'm 100% heathen 

so what prayers do u feel God did not answer and/or u wanted your will to be done and not God's will to be done, any of which caused u to rejet Him? caused you to find any argument, false twisted information, be a free thinker, thinking your of superior IQ while ignoring the 80% of facts that prove there is a God for there could be no other explanation, etc., etc., all too fight the conviction of the Holy Spirit to return to your Lord of Hosts?
before u answer any,
Have you ever read the Bible, the Word of God, whereas the Word became Flesh? or did u just listen and repeat what other loss souls say?


It's important to understand why things work. If you don't understand, then you can't think for yourself, and all you can do is repeat the mistakes of your teachers, who were repeating what they learned in a book from other people who just were repeating what they heard...  Dr. J. Bookspan

Those who have faith need no explanation, for those who have no faith, no explanation is possible. ~ St Thomas Aquinas

people get the most upset about things they know in their hearts are true, but that they're not willing to accept because of the massive amount of pain those truths will cause them. The anger is a result of their fear.

[Gavin_Sons]

I think most, not all, of what dinosnake has said can be refered back to the title of this thread 

[Gryphon Rider]

I still would like an explanation of when the Bible says one thing, and reality says another, WHY should people believe the Bible?  Saying that it is the "Spirit of God" when it is obviously NOT matching what "god" has, quite apparently, done is, well, silly.  You are told to believe so unconditionally that people don't question when it is apparently WRONG, and it has been proven to be wrong before. 

Your questions presupposes that I agree with the premise.  I don't.
E.g.  Harley Davidson motorcycles are obviously superior to Honda motorcycles.  What would possess someone to be seen riding a Honda?

I'll attempt to give a simple answer to the question, "Why would people believe the Bible?"  My answer will likely prove unsatisfying to you.

1.  God regenerates someone, bringing their spirit to life, making them able to respond to Him.  Sometimes this seems to be a process; sometimes it happens quickly.
2.  They hear and believe the Gospel message, that: a) their sin prevents them from communing with a holy God and spending the rest of eternity with Him, b) as they confess and repent of their sin, they will be forgiven, c) that Christ lived a perfect life, then submitted to death on a cross, atoning for their sin, d) that Christ was raised from death by the Father, and that he is now seated at His right hand, interceding on their behalf, and e) that their eternal home is secure because their destination is determined according to Christ's righteousness, not their own.
3.  They are baptised into the Church by the Holy Spirit, who indwells them, sealing their salvation.  (This is different from water baptism, which is an outward sign of an inner reality.)
4.  Amongst many other things, the Spirit illuminates God's word to believers, enabling them to understand what they need to understand.
5.  As believers trust His word, following what Christ commands, they learn more and more confidently that it is to be trusted.

There are several things to understand about the Bible:
1.  It is not a complete revelation.  I.e., it doesn't tell us everything about everything; it only tells us what God wants us to know now.
2.  The Bible is the story of God's interaction with us, not a scientific text book.  When it speaks about natural phenomenon, it describes them as they are observed, to the degree necessary to make the larger point of that thought, in a way that is understood by the intended reader.  E.g., we don't say, "The earth has continued to revolve another 0.35 degrees, allowing me, from my position on the earth, to directly see the sun."  No, we say, "The sun is up!"  The person who we are trying to convince to get out of bed does not feel that she has been lied to.  When it does speak about historical events or natural phenomena it can be trusted to be truthful.  We can't, however, expect a scientific level of precision when the writer never intended to convey precise information.  E.g., if the Bible says 25,000 people died and were buried there, we needn't get bent out of shape if an archeologist comes across the grave site and finds 25,562 skeletons.
3.  We need to try to understand how the intended readers of the book at the time it was written would have understood the passage.  E.g. we shouldn't read an expression literally that the readers at the time would have known to be a figure of speech.

There is much more that could be said about this.

I think most, not all, of what dinosnake has said can be refered back to the title of this thread 

I don't think dinosnake is stupid.  Quite the opposite, I expect.

[98valk]

Dino,
again science confirms what God already said in His written Word.

Genesis 1
 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/04/26/bright-flash-of-light-marks-incredible-moment-life-begins-when-s/

Human life begins in bright flash of light as a sperm meets an egg, scientists have shown for the first time, after capturing the astonishing ‘fireworks’ on film.

An explosion of tiny sparks erupts from the egg at the exact moment of conception.

Scientists had seen the phenomenon occur in other animals but it is the first time is has been also shown to happen in humans.

[The emperor has no clothes]

An interesting debate.  But no one will be converting to the other side.... will they?

In the spirit of good fellowship, I think we could give the Snake a good full dunk baptism, should he chose to attend one of our gatherings.  But after 3-5 minutes, he will need to be let up.  

I don't know if anyone will be converted but maybe. I have found some of the discussion interesting and informative. I have also found some of it rude and not informative. I don't know how I would be classified (nor do I really care how someone else classifies me) . I believe there is a god, but I can't with any certainty tell you that I am a Christian. When I was younger I spent a fair amount of time trying to figure it out with not much success. As I have aged just figure I am best off trying to be a good person and let the chips fall where they may. I do appreciate those here who have explained their positions in a polite and thoughtful way. 

[98valk]

An interesting debate.  But no one will be converting to the other side.... will they?

In the spirit of good fellowship, I think we could give the Snake a good full dunk baptism, should he chose to attend one of our gatherings.  But after 3-5 minutes, he will need to be let up.  

I don't know if anyone will be converted but maybe. I have found some of the discussion interesting and informative. I have also found some of it rude and not informative. I don't know how I would be classified (nor do I really care how someone else classifies me) . I believe there is a god, but I can't with any certainty tell you that I am a Christian. When I was younger I spent a fair amount of time trying to figure it out with not much success. As I have aged just figure I am best off trying to be a good person and let the chips fall where they may. I do appreciate those here who have explained their positions in a polite and thoughtful way.  

just being a good person is not enough for we all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. Salvation is a free gift from God, we can do nothing and we did nothing to acquire it, except to freely except it and His son for eternal life.
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith.
And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].

 10 For we are His workmanship [His own master work, a work of art], created in Christ Jesus [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, ready to be used] for good works, which God prepared [for us] beforehand [taking paths which He set], so that we would walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us].

[dinosnake]

Well, FWIW, my point of the conversation is I, personally, do not believe in god.  This is my personal decision and I do not expect anyone else to make the same decision nor do I try to change anyone.

But, from my point of view, this is NOT how American Christians act.  Although Christians expect the protections of the First Amendment for themselves, to allow their choices of religion and its practices, they often refuse to permit the same right to everyone else.  By forcing through laws based upon their personal religious views - be it women's health choices, what happens in the bedroom between two consenting adults, how "marriage" works between two consenting adults, and much more - they want their views to dominate the legal landscape.  Usually, by attaching the statement that "America is a Christian nation!!".  It does not matter the fundamental religious foundations of the principles, the written document says "Freedom of Religion", and that means for everyone.  

By telling me that I must obey your religious convictions, I am being reduced to a third class citizen.  And I resent having to feel that way in my own country, thanks to those people.  As long as my actions have no effect on you - what I do in my personal life has no effect besides you sticking your nose in my business and what you find bothers you - I have the right to live my life as I see fit.  You want that for yourself...but you refuse to pass it along to others.  Making you a hypocrite.

(NOTE: "You" is generalized, absolutely positively no individual is having the discussion pointed at them)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, so here I am today, thinking of you guys...as I break bread (literally, eating matzos!) with a Jewish coworker who is celebrating Passover.  Brings back memories of childhood (I had an elderly Jewish lady as a neighbor and loved her dearly).  

AND:

Teaching my young coworker, a man born in the ghetto to an indigent drug addict mother and who, when he started working for my boss over 10 years ago was quite illiterate, and brought up absolutely without any faith background.  He knew nothing about matzos and Moses, Pharaoh and the Exodus.  Thanks to listening to us, asking for help, us teaching him as he went along, he can now read and write but his mother never taught him the old legends; although he saw Orthodox Jews in the business area wearing hats and yarmulkes, Muslim women wearing the hijab, etc, he didn't know why.  So I just told him the story of the Jews of Isreal, humility under the eyes of god, etc etc.

An atheist teaching religion to the heathen!  Who knew??!  

And so the world turns.  Tune in tomorrow when Susan says...