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mike72903
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« on: June 28, 2016, 01:43:25 PM » |
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Evidently, I learned wrong  I alway leaned into corners and kind of pulled the bike over in the direction I was going while leaning in that direction. So now I'm trying to actually counter steer by pushing on the side I want to turn. Currently this is far from intuitive and I have to fight to do it against my natural inclination. I'll get better. Then I read an online article that quoted from the Police Motorcycle Operators Course Book. "'Do not utilize any body lean at all,'according to the Police Motorcycle Operator’s Course booklet". Does that mean to stay vertical during the turn while the bike leans? |
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Pete
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 01:55:34 PM » |
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That is the idea they are trying to convey.
By pushing the bar you are changing the angle of the bike and you body angle is less of an issue as you weigh less than the bike.
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 01:59:33 PM » |
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Evidently, I learned wrong I alway leaned into corners and kind of pulled the bike over in the direction I was going while leaning in that direction. So now I'm trying to actually counter steer by pushing on the side I want to turn. Currently this is far from intuitive and I have to fight to do it against my natural inclination. I'll get better. Then I read an online article that quoted from the Police Motorcycle Operators Course Book. "'Do not utilize any body lean at all,'according to the Police Motorcycle Operator’s Course booklet". Does that mean to stay vertical during the turn while the bike leans? I'm sure you have been counter steering already. You just didn't realize it. |
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BobB
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 02:00:11 PM » |
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No, at speed it means you lean as the bike leans staying upright in the saddle. Some riders dip the bike at low speeds, below 10 mph, to make tight u-turns, etc. That works well with practice. Once your brain tells your body to countersteer, you will be surprised at how easy it is to maneuver a large motorcycle like the Valkyrie. Many of us originally learned the wrong way, myself included over 50 years ago...
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 02:02:53 PM by BobB »
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Daniel Meyer
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Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 02:03:32 PM » |
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Please don't take this wrong but run...don't walk...to the nearest MSF basic riders course and take it. Fun, not expensive, and you'll learn more about riding in those 2-1/2 days than you think you know already.
Please.
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer  |
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Pete
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 02:11:12 PM » |
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when counter steering to the left by pressing the left handlebar, your body angle to the bike can stay the same or move right in relation to the bike as you deepen the left turn.
The more you push then the more angle right your body appears to you although the whole package (bike and you) are leaning left.
In a mild turn your body may appear to you as the same angle as you deepen the turn the angle of person to bike does change.
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Serk
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 02:13:01 PM » |
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Please don't take this wrong but run...don't walk...to the nearest MSF basic riders course and take it. Fun, not expensive, and you'll learn more about riding in those 2-1/2 days than you think you know already.
Please.
I agree with this but let me add, get a copy of "Proficient Motorcycling, The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well" by David Hough. (And read it.)  I'm not using hyperbole when I say this book has saved my life. |
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away...  IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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MP
Member
Posts: 5532
1997 Std Valkyrie and 2001 red/blk I/S w/sidecar
North Dakota
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2016, 02:19:27 PM » |
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Evidently, I learned wrong I alway leaned into corners and kind of pulled the bike over in the direction I was going while leaning in that direction. So now I'm trying to actually counter steer by pushing on the side I want to turn. Currently this is far from intuitive and I have to fight to do it against my natural inclination. I'll get better. Then I read an online article that quoted from the Police Motorcycle Operators Course Book. "'Do not utilize any body lean at all,'according to the Police Motorcycle Operator’s Course booklet". Does that mean to stay vertical during the turn while the bike leans? I'm sure you have been counter steering already. You just didn't realize it. Agree whole heartidly. To put the bike into a slight lean, at speed, you countersteer. I think if you go out, and take some corners at speed, and carefully notice HOW you put the bike into a lean, you will discover you are counter steering. It is not much, just a touch. I have talked to many riders who say they do not countersteer, but when they check, they realize they have been. |
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 "Ridin' with Cycho" |
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MarkT
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VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"
Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2016, 02:27:18 PM » |
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It's easier to conceptualize and make intuitive, if you push DOWN on the inside handle bar, like you are using your hands to tip the bike. This is easier if your bars are mounted low, like the grips are below your elbows. Mine are, as I have 6" pullback harley risers, and rotated my bars down to straighten my wrists, to help fight carpal tunnel. That pushing down also pushes the inside bar fwd, which is countersteering. An explanation of counter steering - why it works - you use the steering of the bike to upset the equalibrium, steering the wheels out from under it, causing a lean. The lean makes it turn as the bike seeks equalibrium at the new angle. Also, keep your torso inline with the seat and pegs as it was before the turn, or better yet, even dip your body more into the turn than the bike (advanced technique). Keep your eyes level with the horizon and you will FEEL better in tune with the bike and the turn.
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 02:37:02 PM by MarkT »
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Daniel Meyer
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Posts: 5493
Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
The State of confusion.
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2016, 02:27:59 PM » |
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I have talked to many riders who say they do not countersteer, but when they check, they realize they have been.
But that's the problem...unless you've been taught and do this consciously, you can't maneuver the machine to its limits...the "accidental" countersteering is not enough to take a tight corner or avoid an obstacle. Those are the folks that run off a corner...or turn completely the wrong way in an emergency. Be careful out there folks...and learn...there's enough stacked against us already. Don't handicap yourself before you ever get on the machine. |
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CUAgain, Daniel Meyer |
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2016, 02:30:58 PM » |
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Please don't take this wrong but run...don't walk...to the nearest MSF basic riders course and take it. Fun, not expensive, and you'll learn more about riding in those 2-1/2 days than you think you know already.
Please.
+1 You shoulda gone to the "Ask Britman" thread  Read this 6 or 7 times slowly so it sinks in. https://www.ridelikeapro.com/motormans-articles/how-to-counter-steer-on-a-motorcycle/When "leaning" the bike at speed DO NOT push the bike down as you try to keep your torso upright. You may see other riders doing this. Some are copying their riding style from dirt bikes. Others are just WRONG. You want to keep your torso in a line with the bike as the bike leans. Become one with the bike grasshopper. In some cases you can roll weight off an ass cheek. Going round a left bend lean your torso a little more to the left and take a little weight off your right ass cheek. This will enable you to keep the bike 1 or 2 degrees more vertical thereby having a more secure tire grip with the road surface. You are trying to do a mini version of what you see sports bike riders doing when they hang off the bike. Find a nice loooooong sweeper and try it. Move your body around a little. I said A LITTLE and see how that affects the lean angle of the bike. |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2016, 02:32:44 PM » |
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Evidently, I learned wrong I alway leaned into corners and kind of pulled the bike over in the direction I was going while leaning in that direction. So now I'm trying to actually counter steer by pushing on the side I want to turn. Currently this is far from intuitive and I have to fight to do it against my natural inclination. I'll get better. Then I read an online article that quoted from the Police Motorcycle Operators Course Book. "'Do not utilize any body lean at all,'according to the Police Motorcycle Operator’s Course booklet". Does that mean to stay vertical during the turn while the bike leans? I'm sure you have been counter steering already. You just didn't realize it. Agree whole heartidly. To put the bike into a slight lean, at speed, you countersteer. I think if you go out, and take some corners at speed, and carefully notice HOW you put the bike into a lean, you will discover you are counter steering. It is not much, just a touch. I have talked to many riders who say they do not countersteer, but when they check, they realize they have been. I consider myself just an average rider. But I've been doing it for 45 years now. I think it would be impossible to ride over about 20 mph without counter steering. Most of us just do it naturally without even thinking about it. But with that said now that you know how to do it, practice evasive maneuvers with it. You'll be amazed how quickly you can avoid something by a quick input. A question I've been curious about for a while though is do most of you guys push up on the left or pull back on the right bars when making a left turn and vice versa for a right turn. I've found I do both at times. Does it matter ? |
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Roidfingers
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2016, 02:48:13 PM » |
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So basically are we making the lean of the bike do most of the turn and not so much the steering?
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2016, 02:56:16 PM » |
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So basically are we making the lean of the bike do most of the turn and not so much the steering?
Yes. But you are putting pressure on the handlebars to start the bike leaning. Push left to go left and push right to go right. Sounds weird Huh. The 2 wheels act like big gyroscopes. Did you have one as a kid? Remember how once it was spinning it was hard to push it off axis. Same with a bike so you do have to exert pressure on the handlebars to make the bike lean. You can't be going down the road and simply use your body weight to make the bike lean. You may be able to divert it slightly from a straight line but as for going around a bend not so much. |
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big poppa pump
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2016, 02:57:46 PM » |
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You should always try to keep your body perpendicular to the bike when executing turns. More body lean equals less bike lean.
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VRCC#35870 VRCCDS#0266 1998 Valkyrie Hot Rod  |
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BradValk48237
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2016, 03:00:55 PM » |
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Two things I was taught by the instructor at MSP was to drop your "turn in" shoulder a bit as you push when counter steering.... helps lean a bit more and seems to "feel" better.... and TURN YOUR HEAD into the Turn!! and your bike will follow...... otherwise you risk the dreaded "TARGET FIXATION"....
Just those 2 things helped me focus better in the turns.....
B
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Gryphon Rider
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2000 Tourer
Calgary, Alberta
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2016, 03:12:55 PM » |
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Wow! A bunch of correct answers about motorcycle steering dynamics! As a former instructor, I'm impressed!  |
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2016, 03:14:11 PM » |
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Two things I was taught by the instructor at MSP was to drop your "turn in" shoulder a bit as you push when counter steering.... helps lean a bit more and seems to "feel" better.... and TURN YOUR HEAD into the Turn!! and your bike will follow...... otherwise you risk the dreaded "TARGET FIXATION"....
Just those 2 things helped me focus better in the turns.....
B
Yep, look thru the turn. No matter the sped or acuteness. Look where you want to go. Don't look where you DON'T want to go. |
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Steve K (IA)
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2016, 04:01:33 PM » |
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Guess I have been doing it wrong for 50 years. I pull the opposite bar. Left turn, pull right bar.  I've tried the "push" method and doesn't feel natural to me. |
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 States I Have Ridden In |
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2016, 04:05:29 PM » |
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Guess I have been doing it wrong for 50 years. I pull the opposite bar. Left turn, pull right bar. I've tried the "push" method and doesn't feel natural to me. Errrrmm run that by us again. Pull right to go left? |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2016, 04:09:39 PM » |
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Guess I have been doing it wrong for 50 years. I pull the opposite bar. Left turn, pull right bar. I've tried the "push" method and doesn't feel natural to me. Errrrmm run that by us again. Pull right to go left? Instead of pushing the left bar away he is pulling the right bar towards him. I do it both ways. |
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2016, 04:12:16 PM » |
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Guess I have been doing it wrong for 50 years. I pull the opposite bar. Left turn, pull right bar. I've tried the "push" method and doesn't feel natural to me. Errrrmm run that by us again. Pull right to go left? Instead of pushing the left bar away he is pulling the right bar towards him. I do it both ways. Pull right to go left? |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2016, 04:14:07 PM » |
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Guess I have been doing it wrong for 50 years. I pull the opposite bar. Left turn, pull right bar. I've tried the "push" method and doesn't feel natural to me. Errrrmm run that by us again. Pull right to go left? Instead of pushing the left bar away he is pulling the right bar towards him. I do it both ways. Pull right to go left? yes |
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Serk
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2016, 04:23:59 PM » |
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Pull right to go left?
Yes, pulling the right grip towards you is the same effect as pushing the left grip away from you, and causing counter steering to make you go left. |
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away... IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2016, 04:28:29 PM » |
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Pull right to go left?
Yes, pulling the right grip towards you is the same effect as pushing the left grip away from you, and causing counter steering to make you go left. Really? I'll try it next time I ride. Last time I pulled a handle bar right was on a bicycle and it went right. |
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2016, 04:38:53 PM » |
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Pull right to go left?
Yes, pulling the right grip towards you is the same effect as pushing the left grip away from you, and causing counter steering to make you go left. Really? I'll try it next time I ride. Last time I pulled a handle bar right was on a bicycle and it went right. Dont do it when you are going slow. You will go right in that case. As Serk says it's the same as pushing on the left bar. |
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big poppa pump
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2016, 04:40:23 PM » |
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I've done the pulling thingy a couple of times, but just felt weird and IMO requires more effort. Pressing the handlebar down just comes instinctively to me.
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VRCC#35870 VRCCDS#0266 1998 Valkyrie Hot Rod |
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MP
Member
Posts: 5532
1997 Std Valkyrie and 2001 red/blk I/S w/sidecar
North Dakota
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2016, 04:53:02 PM » |
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I have talked to many riders who say they do not countersteer, but when they check, they realize they have been.
But that's the problem...unless you've been taught and do this consciously, you can't maneuver the machine to its limits...the "accidental" countersteering is not enough to take a tight corner or avoid an obstacle. Those are the folks that run off a corner...or turn completely the wrong way in an emergency. Be careful out there folks...and learn...there's enough stacked against us already. Don't handicap yourself before you ever get on the machine. Oh, I agree completely. You really need to push it hard, to make that fast, evasive move. I just meant he is using it to some extent now. |
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"Ridin' with Cycho" |
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mike72903
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2016, 04:59:27 PM » |
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Guess I have been doing it wrong for 50 years. I pull the opposite bar. Left turn, pull right bar. I've tried the "push" method and doesn't feel natural to me. I guess that's what I meant when I said I pull the bike over. Pull or push, I don't think there's any other way. Really have to concentrate and think beforehand if I try to push. Is one way safer or more effective. I'm pretty timid in the curves. I've dragged the pegs a couple times but that would be rare for me. Britman, I apologise to you for getting snarky in that thread.  |
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:03:54 PM by CI_borg »
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2016, 05:02:32 PM » |
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Guess I have been doing it wrong for 50 years. I pull the opposite bar. Left turn, pull right bar. I've tried the "push" method and doesn't feel natural to me. I guess that's what I meant when I said I pull the bike over. Pull or push, I don't think there's any other way. Really have to concentrate and think beforehand if I try to push. Is one way safer or more effective. I'm pretty timid in the curves. I've dragged the pegs a couple times but that would be rare for me. I personally think they are the same. But I'm not an expert. I suppose it's possible that one has more strength and quickness pushing than pulling, but I don't know. |
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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2016, 05:10:34 PM » |
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Guess I have been doing it wrong for 50 years. I pull the opposite bar. Left turn, pull right bar. I've tried the "push" method and doesn't feel natural to me. I guess that's what I meant when I said I pull the bike over. Pull or push, I don't think there's any other way. Really have to concentrate and think beforehand if I try to push. Is one way safer or more effective. I'm pretty timid in the curves. I've dragged the pegs a couple times but that would be rare for me. Britman, I apologise to you for getting snarky in that thread. We all get snarky now and then. Sometimes it's good for us. Sometimes others don't know why the snark reveals itself in the snarker. |
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RDKLL
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Posts: 1222
VRCC #1231 VRCCDS #271
Mesa, AZ
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2016, 05:32:41 PM » |
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I used to teach MSF as well and when a student would say they have been riding x number of years without counter steering...I gently correct, they have been counter steering, just not knowing it.
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jimmytee
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2016, 05:47:09 PM » |
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:50:06 PM by jimmytee »
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"Go sell crazy somewhere else,we're all stocked up"
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jimmytee
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2016, 05:48:55 PM » |
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And shorter one and more to the point of the thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWuTcJcqAng |
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:52:01 PM by jimmytee »
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"Go sell crazy somewhere else,we're all stocked up"
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Danny McMillin
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« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2016, 05:51:40 PM » |
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I don't know why......and don't misunderstand me......but threads like this make me nervous!!  |
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Oss
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Posts: 12765
The lower Hudson Valley
Ossining NY Chapter Rep VRCCDS0141
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« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2016, 05:53:02 PM » |
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When I popped a bicep years back I did the pull on right and push on right thing. It took time to get used to it and I prefer the push down fast ( I am kinda tall) to break the wheel and let the bike fall into the turn that MarkT does. Took beg and adv MSF great courses I agree with MP pushing is easier and faster in a oh crap evasive maneuver I like to practice avoiding manhole covers and potholes Bandit does this push pull but he has an excuse for obvious reasons but he rides better than me with the one arm he has |
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If you don't know where your going any road will take you there
George Harrison
When you come to the fork in the road, take it
Yogi Berra (Don't send it to me C.O.D.)
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Valkpilot
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Posts: 2151
What does the data say?
Corinth, Texas
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« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2016, 06:38:30 PM » |
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Please don't take this wrong but run...don't walk...to the nearest MSF basic riders course and take it. Fun, not expensive, and you'll learn more about riding in those 2-1/2 days than you think you know already.
Please.
I agree with this but let me add, get a copy of "Proficient Motorcycling, The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well" by David Hough. (And read it.) I'm not using hyperbole when I say this book has saved my life. +1 I couldn't agree more. |
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VRCC #19757 IBA #44686 1998 Black Standard 2007 Goldwing   |
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Misfit
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« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2016, 06:52:55 PM » |
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Ride through a series of left and right turns in the twisties with one hand and you will feel the push and the pull of counter steer. Do not attempt this unless you are confident in your ability to make the corner. I followed my buddy the one armed Bandit through the mountains and rode only with my right hand (he rides with his left) just to feel what he was feeling. I still ride that way sometimes to remind me of that day. |
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If you're lucky enough to ride a Valkyrie, you're lucky enough.  |
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Pete
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« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2016, 06:53:56 PM » |
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Yes you can avoid counter steering and just lean your body weight and the bike into a turn.
BUT..............................
It is much slower than true counter steering and in an emergency probably not quick enough to save your butt.
Many of us ride both ways and many do not (always counter steer):
Slow and casual - body bike lean.
Faster and more aggressive - counter steer
The big issue if you do is will you default correctly in an emergency. ( big deal)
As someone pointed out when riding one hand - push one way and pull the other works fine.
The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering.
Somewhere over 5 MPH an actual true left turn of the handle bars will cause the bike to go right and vice versa. More than one person has panicked, actually turned the bars or tried to and went the wrong way and crashed. In extreme cases if they can talk after the accident there first memory is often that the bike would not TURN the way they wanted or the steering locked up.
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2016, 06:59:35 PM » |
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Yes you can avoid counter steering and just lean your body weight and the bike into a turn.
BUT..............................
It is much slower than true counter steering and in an emergency probably not quick enough to save your butt.
Many of us ride both ways and many do not (always counter steer):
Slow and casual - body bike lean.
Faster and more aggressive - counter steer
The big issue if you do is will you default correctly in an emergency. ( big deal)
As someone pointed out when riding one hand - push one way and pull the other works fine.
The actual physical dynamics of the bike turning are almost the same to the bike, but you ability to perform the turn are ENHANCED by the counter steering.
Somewhere over 5 MPH an actual true left turn of the handle bars will cause the bike to go right and vice versa. More than one person has panicked, actually turned the bars or tried to and went the wrong way and crashed. In extreme cases if they can talk after the accident there first memory is often that the bike would not TURN the way they wanted or the steering locked up.
But even if you don't push on the bars and just use your body weight to lean. The wheel is still needing to turn right slightly in a left turn ? |
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