Concealed Carry...how often and where?

[Serk]

Sorry, I've gotten bad about threadjacking lately...

My last haircut was in the summer of 1997, so I'm trying to make it at least until next year to make it a nice even 20 years. It's a pain putting it all up in a ponytail whenever I wanna ride at this point, but we'll see what happens.

Now back to the original topic, I REALLY like a new law they enacted in Tennessee...

Basically, it says that if you disarm because a business has set itself up as a defenseless victim zone, and you are injured in a way you might could have defended yourself, the business takes fiduciary responsibility for your safety...

[Jess from VA]

Sorry, I've gotten bad about threadjacking lately...

My last haircut was in the summer of 1997, so I'm trying to make it at least until next year to make it a nice even 20 years. It's a pain putting it all up in a ponytail whenever I wanna ride at this point, but we'll see what happens.

Now back to the original topic, I REALLY like a new law they enacted in Tennessee...

Basically, it says that if you disarm because a business has set itself up as a defenseless victim zone, and you are injured in a way you might could have defended yourself, the business takes fiduciary responsibility for your safety...

(I also apologize for jacking the thread.)

That will have the insurance lawyers scratching their heads. 

[Gryphon Rider]

bald

Ear your hearts out.

I know most people in this thread don't like opinions from Canadians, but... how can I put this delicately... you have every right to be proud of your mom, but maybe for her next birthday you could buy her a makeover.
 

[doubletee]

question:  for those of you who carry conceal legally,  do you do it on say your employers worksite such as in an office/warehouse/job site or do you leave the gun in your vehicle in the parking lot?

Reason why I ask is a lot of places at work have a sign that says gun free zone or no guns allowed plainly written on the entrance doors getting into work.  I was told that technically that also means NOT on the premises say in your parked car on the employers' property anywhere.  One could get into trouble getting fired I would imagine if mgmt/HR found out that a gun was in your vehicle on their premises or for sure bringing into work while on the job.  Thoughts??

I'm all for it to be perfectly honest since even in small town America,  I see near monthly locally crazies shooting or harming  others by using their vehicles as a weapon while on the road.    People are becoming more violent every single year it seems like with no regard for human life or what consequences their crazed behavior may bring.

Indiana has a parking lot law which, with a few exceptions bans employers from asking if you have a firearm in your locked vehicle and from punishing you if they learn you do. I changed employers largely because of my old employers hostility to firearms. When my old employer heard of the new parking lot law, they called a plant meeting at which they required every employee to sign a plant rules book in which the employee agreed they would not have firearms in their cars on company property. I interrupted the meeting to tell them that after years of myself and other activists writing letters and making calls Indiana had finally made what they were doing illegal. After bringing in a copy of the new law, myself and other concerned employees got signed letters from our corporate headquarters promising that our company would obey Indiana law. If your state doesn't have such a law, you should make it your mission to get one passed just as I did. I had two main talking points I communicated to every Indiana state Representative and Senator yearly for several years before a change finally happened.

The first point was that my wife's company had for all intents and purposes revoked her handgun permit since they disallowed employees the right to have firearms in their cars on company property since no other parking was available. Therefore, my wife had to make a long daily journey on little populated rural roads before dawn while being banned by her employer from having any means of self-defense between our home and her place of employment.

The second point was that I frequently go shooting on my way home from work. But, because my employer required employees to park along a busy downtown street when we had firearms in our vehicles and it was public knowledge why employees vehicles were parked there it made it much more likely that those firearms would be stolen and fall into the hands of criminals.

Myself, other concerned citizens, the NRA and responsible gun owners finally got laws passed to protect us in Indiana. You can too.

While you're absolutely correct about the law, Indiana is also an "at will" employment state. An employer could learn that you had a gun in your car, and fire you for no stated reason. It would be very difficult to prove they fired you for the gun, unless they slipped up and created some commotion about it before hand.

[RP#62]

question:  for those of you who carry conceal legally,  do you do it on say your employers worksite such as in an office/warehouse/job site or do you leave the gun in your vehicle in the parking lot?

Reason why I ask is a lot of places at work have a sign that says gun free zone or no guns allowed plainly written on the entrance doors getting into work.  I was told that technically that also means NOT on the premises say in your parked car on the employers' property anywhere.  One could get into trouble getting fired I would imagine if mgmt/HR found out that a gun was in your vehicle on their premises or for sure bringing into work while on the job.  Thoughts??

I'm all for it to be perfectly honest since even in small town America,  I see near monthly locally crazies shooting or harming  others by using their vehicles as a weapon while on the road.    People are becoming more violent every single year it seems like with no regard for human life or what consequences their crazed behavior may bring.

I don't.  Its frowned upon on airport property.  The signs are unambiguous and carry the weight of federal law.

-RP

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

question:  for those of you who carry conceal legally,  do you do it on say your employers worksite such as in an office/warehouse/job site or do you leave the gun in your vehicle in the parking lot?

Reason why I ask is a lot of places at work have a sign that says gun free zone or no guns allowed plainly written on the entrance doors getting into work.  I was told that technically that also means NOT on the premises say in your parked car on the employers' property anywhere.  One could get into trouble getting fired I would imagine if mgmt/HR found out that a gun was in your vehicle on their premises or for sure bringing into work while on the job.  Thoughts??

I'm all for it to be perfectly honest since even in small town America,  I see near monthly locally crazies shooting or harming  others by using their vehicles as a weapon while on the road.    People are becoming more violent every single year it seems like with no regard for human life or what consequences their crazed behavior may bring.

Indiana has a parking lot law which, with a few exceptions bans employers from asking if you have a firearm in your locked vehicle and from punishing you if they learn you do. I changed employers largely because of my old employers hostility to firearms. When my old employer heard of the new parking lot law, they called a plant meeting at which they required every employee to sign a plant rules book in which the employee agreed they would not have firearms in their cars on company property. I interrupted the meeting to tell them that after years of myself and other activists writing letters and making calls Indiana had finally made what they were doing illegal. After bringing in a copy of the new law, myself and other concerned employees got signed letters from our corporate headquarters promising that our company would obey Indiana law. If your state doesn't have such a law, you should make it your mission to get one passed just as I did. I had two main talking points I communicated to every Indiana state Representative and Senator yearly for several years before a change finally happened.

The first point was that my wife's company had for all intents and purposes revoked her handgun permit since they disallowed employees the right to have firearms in their cars on company property since no other parking was available. Therefore, my wife had to make a long daily journey on little populated rural roads before dawn while being banned by her employer from having any means of self-defense between our home and her place of employment.

The second point was that I frequently go shooting on my way home from work. But, because my employer required employees to park along a busy downtown street when we had firearms in our vehicles and it was public knowledge why employees vehicles were parked there it made it much more likely that those firearms would be stolen and fall into the hands of criminals.

Myself, other concerned citizens, the NRA and responsible gun owners finally got laws passed to protect us in Indiana. You can too.

While you're absolutely correct about the law, Indiana is also an "at will" employment state. An employer could learn that you had a gun in your car, and fire you for no stated reason. It would be very difficult to prove they fired you for the gun, unless they slipped up and created some commotion about it before hand.

That is absolutely true and is a risk to anyone standing up for their rights on this issue. In those cases where you fear that kind of retaliation, E mailing your Representatives about it before hand and even contacting a 2nd Amendment attorney before making an issue of it would be a good idea. And then, being willing to accept the risk for the greater good. If you can't take the risk, don't rock the boat.

[Gavin_Sons]

Just don't tell anyone you have a gun in the car. If they ask say no, they can not search your vehicle. I carry to work, usually take my gun off while there and put it in my dask drawer. Our owner and his wife both carry. He is in the process now of setting up a security team. Even going to get us training once a month. Pretty cool of him. We are expanding and building some military equipment these are one off machines that have never been built and we want to keep that info to ourselves.

[The emperor has no clothes]

bald

Ear your hearts out.

I know most people in this thread don't like opinions from Canadians

Its just them damn Albertians. Them French Canadians from Quebec are very insightful . 

[Willow]

Its just them damn Albertians. Them French Canadians from Quebec are very insightful .  

cursed, meathead, cursed.  If you must curse at least use the correct form of the modifier.  

Incidentally, there are many cursed Albertans but Gryphon Rider is not one of them.  Some of his opinions, though, do suck eggs.      

[The emperor has no clothes]

Its just them damn Albertians. Them French Canadians from Quebec are very insightful .  

cursed, meathead, cursed.  If you must curse at least use the correct form of the modifier.  

Incidentally, there are many cursed Albertans but Gryphon Rider is not one of them.  Some of his opinions, though, do suck eggs.      

Damn it  I think you've got me a half a dozen times on that now. I guess my handle is appropriate . 

[MAD6Gun]

 I carry most of the time.  Today my brother  bovine and I went out to lunch with my buddy mike. Both Chris and I were armed. Both with Kimber Ultra Carry 2  1911s in 45 acp. Mine is stainless, his blued. Both concealed. I wore a VRCC t-shirt with shorts and a Hawaiian shirt unbuttoned covering the gun. Other times I will carry a Ruger LCP 380acp in a pocket holster. 

[MarkT]

Just want to add, besides training with your carry, dressing around the gun which for me is mostly driven by the season - e.g. you can go bigger when heavier winter clothing looks normal - an important consideration is your attitude adjustment, and being REALLY versed on when it's appropriate to introduce the weapon into the scenario.  Almost always it ISN'T.  And of course, there's no such thing as road rage.  I make it a point to verbally defuse every potential hostile situation verbally.  I don't care if they conclude I'm a chicken.  What he DOESN'T know is I may have just saved his life.  I'm not prepared to show my hand unless it's appropriate to play it.  Twice in thirteen years of legal carry, have I ALMOST had to draw my weapon.  I was ready, hand on the buttstock (behind cover), but circumstnces prevailed and I was able to defuse it w/o the gun. There are some good books on self defense, the law, and attitude adjustment.

See
Jeff Cooper, Principles of Personal Defense
Massad Ayoob, Deadly Force - Understanding your Right to Self Defense
Andrew Branca, The law of Self Defense

and lastly, John Ross, Unintended Consequences.  Very interesting read.  For a summary, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_Consequences_%28novel%29

These are available as ebooks, for minimal cost.  I highly recommend them.

[Gryphon Rider]

Its just them damn Albertians. Them French Canadians from Quebec are very insightful .  

cursed, meathead, cursed.  If you must curse at least use the correct form of the modifier.  

Incidentally, there are many cursed Albertans but Gryphon Rider is not one of them.  Some of his opinions, though, do suck eggs.      

I'm just someone takes the time to read and assess my opinions, however inaccurately!

[Gavin_Sons]

http://concealednation.org/2015/06/tips-for-carrying-concealed-on-a-motorcycle/

This guy wrote about concealed carry on a bike. Thought it was cool because he rides a valk 
Anyone know him?

[gregk]

Kinda like Gavin_Sons. No permit here as life around here really doesn't warrent one in my option. However hunting, carrying a gun in a belt hoster , if your jacket falls over the top of the gun it could be construed as a concealed weapon. Thought about this a few times but then if the day comes to collect guns there is pretty good proof you have one, & I prefer not to advertise that I have guns an keep the jackals from breaking into my home. If I lived around a lot of crime I would have one in a heartbeat.

[Bosman]

I carry most of the time when I go out, but if I felt I needed to carry in my own house, I would move!

[Gavin_Sons]

I dont feel I need to carry in my own home. It's kinda like getting dressed in the morning. What do you always put in your pocket? I always put my wallet in my left rear pocket without thinking about what I'm doing. Same with my pistol, stick it inside my waist band on the right without thinking about it. It is just something I always have with me. I may never need it but if I do I always know it is there to help protect myself. When I come home and change clothes the gun gets transfered over to my new attire.  Even right nowsitting in my recliner still in my work clothes it is on my side.

[RGM]

Concealed carry is a mickey in your boot

[Valk_Ridin_Soldier]

I guess I'm irresponsible, along with the overwhelming majority of Canadians.

For those encouraging your wives/GFs to carry, do you know the person they're most likely to shoot is YOU!

And, ladies, you are more likely to be shot and killed by your husband/BF than to be murdered by any means by a stranger.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1635092/

My irresponsible self-defense plan:
1. Trust God.
2. Don't knowingly hang out with/around those involved in crime.
3. Love my wife.

Question: if Americans are so fearful of being killed by a weapon, why aren't there just as many armoured vests being worn as sidearms?

Putting on my flak jacket...I know I'm in hostile territory!

We don't wear flak jackets because they're illegal in more places than guns are.  I haven't figured that out, but it is what it is. 

I don't know where we lost the idea that a person has a fundamental right to defend themselves as they see fit, not as the government says they can.  What I also don't get is when people wish to suspend their ability to reason, think critically, and apply logic to conversations, and then immediately switch the conversation to one about "God".  There's been more government and church sanctioned evil done "in the name of God" throughout the history of mankind than any other single cause. 

The Universe is a chaotic and random place where crap happens.  Sometimes that crap is a bad person with intent to do harm crosses your path.  You are either prepared for it or at their mercy.  You are a victim to the extent you failed to prepare for the event.  Fortunately, most people won't be in that position.  It's as simple as that. 

You cannot trust God to protect you.   Even if you suspend your ability to reason, think critically, and apply logic and actually believe he exists, He won't.  Even by your own doctrine, he's a capricious, random, and pretty unreliable guy.  He lets a lot of bad crap happen to good people...or he makes it happen, depending on your interpretation of the bible.  The typical religious response is "It could have been worse, but God didn't let it get that bad".  Up until someone dies, then it's "God has taken them home."  Gimme a break. 

If there is a God, he's not high on my trusted list.  There's too much bad crap happening to good people to allow me to trust him/her/whatever.  If it's "God's Plan" or "God's Will", he's shown me that he is a mean, sadistic, probably somewhat psychotic being.  None of the teachings of Christianity are congruent to the realities many face in the world, or even come close to explaining the suffering of millions of those who are supposedly his "Creations". 

Yeah, I know that all sounds harsh.  I didn't get this way overnight.  At one point, I even taught Sunday School.  I was devout. I was involved in the church, took those beliefs to heart, but the more I studied the bible, the more it became apparent to me that it was a totally self supporting fantasy.  There is no external support for it...no independent verification, no real evidence.  Faith is nothing more than the suspension of rational thought.  It took some time to shake those beliefs.  After 50 some years, I could not reconcile what I was teaching and studying with the life I experienced and observed.  Religion, and belief in any supernatural being, is easily contraindicated by any and all logical, critical thought.  There is zero evidence god exists.  None.  And don't point at a sunset or a flower or the milky way and tell me that's "evidence"  It ain't. 

I watched a drugged driver cross the center line and hit my wife head on on her motorcycle. He ripped her leg off and shattered both arms.  I held her femoral artery closed to keep her bleeding to death.  I stayed in her hospital room for ten weeks, almost 24/7.  God wasn't there.  I was.  God didn't soothe her suffering, ease her pain...  Drugs and medical science did. 

"Oh," you may say, "It was God who trained the surgeons or paramedics or whatever it was that kept her alive... blah blah blah." If so, then it was God who put that drug addict in her path.  It was God that did that to her in the first place.  Why did he do that?  "Oh, he has a plan...a reason....whatever."  I've heard it all.  It makes no sense.  It's insulting.  It sure doesn't jibe with "God loves all of his creations."  That is, IF he exists, which I have not conceded.  If he exists, he will answer to me for a lot of crap over the years.  Maybe then we can come to terms...until then, the whole paradigm smacks of a myth that has grown into a centuries old form of crowd control and nothing more. 

So no, I don't trust God to protect me or mine.  The Flying spaghetti monster is just as real.  I can't count on the cops to do so either.  And yes, I have used a gun in self defense.  I trusted my gun, my training (22 years in the Army) and my assessment of the situation.  I did not have time to ask god what I should do.  I just did what I had to do, let my lawyer do the talking and put the matter to rest. 

2.  Don't hang out with Criminals.  That's a No Brainer.  But too often, Criminals need hard working tangibles-earning victims to prey on.  Such was the case in my situation.  The Prey they selected had teeth, though.  Glad it wasn't one of my neighbors they selected that night...  A lot of them trusted god too.  One of their previous victims was beaten and raped before they robbed her.  Lovely church-going woman.  Lot of good that did her.

3.  Love your wife.  Another good point...I'd scorch the earth black and everyone in it to protect her...another reason to carry.  She's not as able to defend herself as she was.  So I carry everywhere I go, everywhere I take her.  If I lived in the peaceful, totally crime free land of Canada, I'd still carry, only bigger guns.  You have more bears there. 

[Chrisj CMA]

I guess I'm irresponsible, along with the overwhelming majority of Canadians.

For those encouraging your wives/GFs to carry, do you know the person they're most likely to shoot is YOU!

And, ladies, you are more likely to be shot and killed by your husband/BF than to be murdered by any means by a stranger.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1635092/

My irresponsible self-defense plan:
1. Trust God.
2. Don't knowingly hang out with/around those involved in crime.
3. Love my wife.

Question: if Americans are so fearful of being killed by a weapon, why aren't there just as many armoured vests being worn as sidearms?

Putting on my flak jacket...I know I'm in hostile territory!

We don't wear flak jackets because they're illegal in more places than guns are.  I haven't figured that out, but it is what it is. 

I don't know where we lost the idea that a person has a fundamental right to defend themselves as they see fit, not as the government says they can.  What I also don't get is when people wish to suspend their ability to reason, think critically, and apply logic to conversations, and then immediately switch the conversation to one about "God".  There's been more government and church sanctioned evil done "in the name of God" throughout the history of mankind than any other single cause. 

The Universe is a chaotic and random place where crap happens.  Sometimes that crap is a bad person with intent to do harm crosses your path.  You are either prepared for it or at their mercy.  You are a victim to the extent you failed to prepare for the event.  Fortunately, most people won't be in that position.  It's as simple as that. 

You cannot trust God to protect you.   Even if you suspend your ability to reason, think critically, and apply logic and actually believe he exists, He won't.  Even by your own doctrine, he's a capricious, random, and pretty unreliable guy.  He lets a lot of bad crap happen to good people...or he makes it happen, depending on your interpretation of the bible.  The typical religious response is "It could have been worse, but God didn't let it get that bad".  Up until someone dies, then it's "God has taken them home."  Gimme a break. 

If there is a God, he's not high on my trusted list.  There's too much bad crap happening to good people to allow me to trust him/her/whatever.  If it's "God's Plan" or "God's Will", he's shown me that he is a mean, sadistic, probably somewhat psychotic being.  None of the teachings of Christianity are congruent to the realities many face in the world, or even come close to explaining the suffering of millions of those who are supposedly his "Creations". 

Yeah, I know that all sounds harsh.  I didn't get this way overnight.  At one point, I even taught Sunday School.  I was devout. I was involved in the church, took those beliefs to heart, but the more I studied the bible, the more it became apparent to me that it was a totally self supporting fantasy.  There is no external support for it...no independent verification, no real evidence.  Faith is nothing more than the suspension of rational thought.  It took some time to shake those beliefs.  After 50 some years, I could not reconcile what I was teaching and studying with the life I experienced and observed.  Religion, and belief in any supernatural being, is easily contraindicated by any and all logical, critical thought.  There is zero evidence god exists.  None.  And don't point at a sunset or a flower or the milky way and tell me that's "evidence"  It ain't. 

I watched a drugged driver cross the center line and hit my wife head on on her motorcycle. He ripped her leg off and shattered both arms.  I held her femoral artery closed to keep her bleeding to death.  I stayed in her hospital room for ten weeks, almost 24/7.  God wasn't there.  I was.  God didn't soothe her suffering, ease her pain...  Drugs and medical science did. 

"Oh," you may say, "It was God who trained the surgeons or paramedics or whatever it was that kept her alive... blah blah blah." If so, then it was God who put that drug addict in her path.  It was God that did that to her in the first place.  Why did he do that?  "Oh, he has a plan...a reason....whatever."  I've heard it all.  It makes no sense.  It's insulting.  It sure doesn't jibe with "God loves all of his creations."  That is, IF he exists, which I have not conceded.  If he exists, he will answer to me for a lot of crap over the years.  Maybe then we can come to terms...until then, the whole paradigm smacks of a myth that has grown into a centuries old form of crowd control and nothing more. 

So no, I don't trust God to protect me or mine.  The Flying spaghetti monster is just as real.  I can't count on the cops to do so either.  And yes, I have used a gun in self defense.  I trusted my gun, my training (22 years in the Army) and my assessment of the situation.  I did not have time to ask god what I should do.  I just did what I had to do, let my lawyer do the talking and put the matter to rest. 

2.  Don't hang out with Criminals.  That's a No Brainer.  But too often, Criminals need hard working tangibles-earning victims to prey on.  Such was the case in my situation.  The Prey they selected had teeth, though.  Glad it wasn't one of my neighbors they selected that night...  A lot of them trusted god too.  One of their previous victims was beaten and raped before they robbed her.  Lovely church-going woman.  Lot of good that did her.

3.  Love your wife.  Another good point...I'd scorch the earth black and everyone in it to protect her...another reason to carry.  She's not as able to defend herself as she was.  So I carry everywhere I go, everywhere I take her.  If I lived in the peaceful, totally crime free land of Canada, I'd still carry, only bigger guns.  You have more bears there. 

Well VRS....I cant say I agree with your new views of God.  That made me sad to read actually.  However, I agree whole heartedly with your rationale for carrying, for self protection. 

I do not believe that God (yes I know he is real) wants us to be passively standing by waiting to be a victim.  He blessed us with a mind (like you say) to rationally figure out that we can and should defend our selves and our loved ones and  well ANYONE that becomes threatened by someone intent to do harm.

Evil is alive and well, its also part of our job as Christians to do a better job than we have done in the past of bringing more light into the darkness.  I find that having my .357 tucked in my waist band holster doesn't impede my ability to serve God in any way he calls me.......so I trust God and practice with my .357 at the same time.  I don't see an issue there.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I guess I'm irresponsible, along with the overwhelming majority of Canadians.

For those encouraging your wives/GFs to carry, do you know the person they're most likely to shoot is YOU!

And, ladies, you are more likely to be shot and killed by your husband/BF than to be murdered by any means by a stranger.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1635092/

My irresponsible self-defense plan:
1. Trust God.
2. Don't knowingly hang out with/around those involved in crime.
3. Love my wife.

Question: if Americans are so fearful of being killed by a weapon, why aren't there just as many armoured vests being worn as sidearms?

Putting on my flak jacket...I know I'm in hostile territory!

We don't wear flak jackets because they're illegal in more places than guns are.  I haven't figured that out, but it is what it is.  

I don't know where we lost the idea that a person has a fundamental right to defend themselves as they see fit, not as the government says they can.  What I also don't get is when people wish to suspend their ability to reason, think critically, and apply logic to conversations, and then immediately switch the conversation to one about "God".  There's been more government and church sanctioned evil done "in the name of God" throughout the history of mankind than any other single cause.  

The Universe is a chaotic and random place where crap happens.  Sometimes that crap is a bad person with intent to do harm crosses your path.  You are either prepared for it or at their mercy.  You are a victim to the extent you failed to prepare for the event.  Fortunately, most people won't be in that position.  It's as simple as that.  

You cannot trust God to protect you.   Even if you suspend your ability to reason, think critically, and apply logic and actually believe he exists, He won't.  Even by your own doctrine, he's a capricious, random, and pretty unreliable guy.  He lets a lot of bad crap happen to good people...or he makes it happen, depending on your interpretation of the bible.  The typical religious response is "It could have been worse, but God didn't let it get that bad".  Up until someone dies, then it's "God has taken them home."  Gimme a break.  

If there is a God, he's not high on my trusted list.  There's too much bad crap happening to good people to allow me to trust him/her/whatever.  If it's "God's Plan" or "God's Will", he's shown me that he is a mean, sadistic, probably somewhat psychotic being.  None of the teachings of Christianity are congruent to the realities many face in the world, or even come close to explaining the suffering of millions of those who are supposedly his "Creations".  

Yeah, I know that all sounds harsh.  I didn't get this way overnight.  At one point, I even taught Sunday School.  I was devout. I was involved in the church, took those beliefs to heart, but the more I studied the bible, the more it became apparent to me that it was a totally self supporting fantasy.  There is no external support for it...no independent verification, no real evidence.  Faith is nothing more than the suspension of rational thought.  It took some time to shake those beliefs.  After 50 some years, I could not reconcile what I was teaching and studying with the life I experienced and observed.  Religion, and belief in any supernatural being, is easily contraindicated by any and all logical, critical thought.  There is zero evidence god exists.  None.  And don't point at a sunset or a flower or the milky way and tell me that's "evidence"  It ain't.  

I watched a drugged driver cross the center line and hit my wife head on on her motorcycle. He ripped her leg off and shattered both arms.  I held her femoral artery closed to keep her bleeding to death.  I stayed in her hospital room for ten weeks, almost 24/7.  God wasn't there.  I was.  God didn't soothe her suffering, ease her pain...  Drugs and medical science did.  

"Oh," you may say, "It was God who trained the surgeons or paramedics or whatever it was that kept her alive... blah blah blah." If so, then it was God who put that drug addict in her path.  It was God that did that to her in the first place.  Why did he do that?  "Oh, he has a plan...a reason....whatever."  I've heard it all.  It makes no sense.  It's insulting.  It sure doesn't jibe with "God loves all of his creations."  That is, IF he exists, which I have not conceded.  If he exists, he will answer to me for a lot of crap over the years.  Maybe then we can come to terms...until then, the whole paradigm smacks of a myth that has grown into a centuries old form of crowd control and nothing more.  

So no, I don't trust God to protect me or mine.  The Flying spaghetti monster is just as real.  I can't count on the cops to do so either.  And yes, I have used a gun in self defense.  I trusted my gun, my training (22 years in the Army) and my assessment of the situation.  I did not have time to ask god what I should do.  I just did what I had to do, let my lawyer do the talking and put the matter to rest.  

2.  Don't hang out with Criminals.  That's a No Brainer.  But too often, Criminals need hard working tangibles-earning victims to prey on.  Such was the case in my situation.  The Prey they selected had teeth, though.  Glad it wasn't one of my neighbors they selected that night...  A lot of them trusted god too.  One of their previous victims was beaten and raped before they robbed her.  Lovely church-going woman.  Lot of good that did her.

3.  Love your wife.  Another good point...I'd scorch the earth black and everyone in it to protect her...another reason to carry.  She's not as able to defend herself as she was.  So I carry everywhere I go, everywhere I take her.  If I lived in the peaceful, totally crime free land of Canada, I'd still carry, only bigger guns.  You have more bears there.  

Well VRS....I cant say I agree with your new views of God.  That made me sad to read actually.  However, I agree whole heartedly with your rationale for carrying, for self protection.  

I do not believe that God (yes I know he is real) wants us to be passively standing by waiting to be a victim.  He blessed us with a mind (like you say) to rationally figure out that we can and should defend our selves and our loved ones and  well ANYONE that becomes threatened by someone intent to do harm.

Evil is alive and well, its also part of our job as Christians to do a better job than we have done in the past of bringing more light into the darkness.  I find that having my .357 tucked in my waist band holster doesn't impede my ability to serve God in any way he calls me.......so I trust God and practice with my .357 at the same time.  I don't see an issue there.

VRS & Chris. Eloquently said on both your parts. Posts like these are one of the many reasons I love this club.

[Pete]

Within the religious community there has always been at least 3 schools of thought.

1. That God created humans and gave them free will of action and thought.
2. That God has preordained events in humans lives, think devine intervention.
3. That God has given humans some free will and intervenes based on something.

Item 2 has never made sense to me and I could never understand those supporting those ideas. If so then why? Can he intervene? Yes. Does he intervene? Not often. And I do not think he wants you to base everyday decisions on Item 2.

Item 3 is just a cop out version of 2.

Item 1 is where I always get to. And coupled with that is that God expects you to take care of yourself and others. It is our responsibility as human beings in a civilized society. Even if you are a non believer  the same responsibility exist as a member of a civilized society.

Failing to take reasonable responsible actions to protect yourself and others and mitigate acts of criminals is a  morally repugnant. And should negate your membership as a free citizen of the world and should be a sin in your religion.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth, OBTW good discussion.

And always be prepared everywhere irrespective of man made regulations is good advise. 

[Gryphon Rider]

We don't wear flak jackets because they're illegal in more places than guns are.  I haven't figured that out, but it is what it is.

I really don't understand that either.

What I also don't get is when people wish to suspend their ability to reason, think critically, and apply logic to conversations, and then immediately switch the conversation to one about "God".

Did I do that?  If I have written something unreasonable, illogical, or lacking critical thinking, why not point out the specifics, rather than saying I wish to suspend my ability to reason, etc.  Or do you say this only because I say I trust God?  What I simply did was address two items brought up by previous commenters, that 1. all those who don't carry are irresponsible, and 2. many are encouraging their spouses to also carry.  I pointed out the fact that I, and most Canadians, don't see firearms as a means to defend against the perils we, as Canadians, are most likely to face.  I also pointed out that firearms don't necessarily make the members of a household safer.  Then I presented what I do to improve my safety.  The first item, trusting God, could have warranted an explanation, but that would have hijacked the thread.  What I pack into that statement are several things:
1. When I can suppress my desire to accomplish my own will for my own selfish reasons, I do what God wants me to do, trusting Him with the results for His benefit, not necessarily for mine.
2. I place far less importance on my personal security because I know that when this life ends in death, my eternal life begins.  That doesn't mean I take unnecessary risks, but it means I focus my efforts on things with eternal importance.  I can understand that someone who believes that this life is all there is would put a very high priority on trying to keep his life for as long as he can.  I also understand that people handle perceived and real risk differently, and that we all balance freedom, quality of life, and our life's purpose, against restrictions and efforts that can mitigate risk.
3. My trust is not that He will protect me from all danger, illness, or misfortune, or even that I will be a little more protected than my unbelieving neighbor.  There are too many examples, even in the Bible, of faithful people who were beaten and killed by their opponents.  My trust is that what He allows to happen to me will serve my eternal good.

There's been more government and church sanctioned evil done "in the name of God" throughout the history of mankind than any other single cause.

I'm not sure how one measures this, but I suspect avarice might have it beat, and prove to be a major motivation behind much of the evil committed in the name of God.  A hell of a lot of evil has been done around the world over the millennia by many who make no claim to be acting on behalf of the Judeo-Christian God.

The Universe is a chaotic and random place where crap happens.  Sometimes that crap is a bad person with intent to do harm crosses your path.  You are either prepared for it or at their mercy.  You are a victim to the extent you failed to prepare for the event.  Fortunately, most people won't be in that position.  It's as simple as that. 

You cannot trust God to protect you.   Even if you suspend your ability to reason, think critically, and apply logic and actually believe he exists, He won't.  Even by your own doctrine, he's a capricious, random, and pretty unreliable guy.  He lets a lot of bad crap happen to good people...or he makes it happen, depending on your interpretation of the bible.  The typical religious response is "It could have been worse, but God didn't let it get that bad".  Up until someone dies, then it's "God has taken them home."  Gimme a break. 

If there is a God, he's not high on my trusted list.  There's too much bad crap happening to good people to allow me to trust him/her/whatever.  If it's "God's Plan" or "God's Will", he's shown me that he is a mean, sadistic, probably somewhat psychotic being.  None of the teachings of Christianity are congruent to the realities many face in the world, or even come close to explaining the suffering of millions of those who are supposedly his "Creations". 

Yeah, I know that all sounds harsh.  I didn't get this way overnight.  At one point, I even taught Sunday School.  I was devout. I was involved in the church, took those beliefs to heart, but the more I studied the bible, the more it became apparent to me that it was a totally self supporting fantasy.  There is no external support for it...no independent verification, no real evidence.  Faith is nothing more than the suspension of rational thought.  It took some time to shake those beliefs.  After 50 some years, I could not reconcile what I was teaching and studying with the life I experienced and observed.  Religion, and belief in any supernatural being, is easily contraindicated by any and all logical, critical thought.  There is zero evidence god exists.  None.  And don't point at a sunset or a flower or the milky way and tell me that's "evidence"  It ain't. 

I watched a drugged driver cross the center line and hit my wife head on on her motorcycle. He ripped her leg off and shattered both arms.  I held her femoral artery closed to keep her bleeding to death.  I stayed in her hospital room for ten weeks, almost 24/7.  God wasn't there.  I was.  God didn't soothe her suffering, ease her pain...  Drugs and medical science did. 

"Oh," you may say, "It was God who trained the surgeons or paramedics or whatever it was that kept her alive... blah blah blah." If so, then it was God who put that drug addict in her path.  It was God that did that to her in the first place.  Why did he do that?  "Oh, he has a plan...a reason....whatever."  I've heard it all.  It makes no sense.  It's insulting.  It sure doesn't jibe with "God loves all of his creations."  That is, IF he exists, which I have not conceded.  If he exists, he will answer to me for a lot of crap over the years.  Maybe then we can come to terms...until then, the whole paradigm smacks of a myth that has grown into a centuries old form of crowd control and nothing more. 

So no, I don't trust God to protect me or mine.  The Flying spaghetti monster is just as real.  I can't count on the cops to do so either.  And yes, I have used a gun in self defense.  I trusted my gun, my training (22 years in the Army) and my assessment of the situation.  I did not have time to ask god what I should do.  I just did what I had to do, let my lawyer do the talking and put the matter to rest.

If your church experience led you to believe that God inoculated His followers against tragedy or the effects of evil, of course you became disillusioned.  As for addressing the rest of it, right now it's late at night, and this is supposed to be a thread about how recent events have affected members' likelihood of carrying a firearm.

2.  Don't hang out with Criminals.  That's a No Brainer.  But too often, Criminals need hard working tangibles-earning victims to prey on.  Such was the case in my situation.  The Prey they selected had teeth, though.  Glad it wasn't one of my neighbors they selected that night...  A lot of them trusted god too.  One of their previous victims was beaten and raped before they robbed her.  Lovely church-going woman.  Lot of good that did her.

3.  Love your wife.  Another good point...I'd scorch the earth black and everyone in it to protect her...another reason to carry.  She's not as able to defend herself as she was.  So I carry everywhere I go, everywhere I take her.  If I lived in the peaceful, totally crime free land of Canada, I'd still carry, only bigger guns.  You have more bears there.

My number three, "love my wife" statement was mostly facetious, implying that if I didn't treat her right, I should be more fearful of her than of any external threat.  I don't actually think that's true.  I'm sure, however, that loving my wife affects my well-being in many other ways. 

One of the biggest, if not the biggest, physical risk that my family faces is my death.  The biggest preventable risks that I face are heart disease and motorcycle crash.
I would rather take the time and expense that you guys are spending on guns, ammo, and range time, and spend it on healthy food, a gym membership, and armoured motorcycle gear. 

[Valk_Ridin_Soldier]

One of the biggest, if not the biggest, physical risk that my family faces is my death.  The biggest preventable risks that I face are heart disease and motorcycle crash.
I would rather take the time and expense that you guys are spending on guns, ammo, and range time, and spend it on healthy food, a gym membership, and armoured motorcycle gear. 

I apologize if this seemed like an ad hominem attack...it was definitely not intended that way.  I also unreservedly apologize for having a hair trigger when it comes to the subject.  Especially after my wife's accident, and the subsequent garbage that followed from "church" people when they visited her in the hospital, I definitely tend to over-react.

One example:  Lady from her job came to see her about two weeks after the accident...the day of her 10th surgery.  She just showed up three hours after a surgical procedure to remove more infected tissue from the residual limb.  "Thanks for coming," I told her.  "But now isn't a good time.  Lots of pain, lots of painkillers on board, and lots of anguish because they just removed another inch or two of leg." 

Church lady bulled her way in anyway, stating that she wasn't going to allow me to be "Satan's Gatekeeper."  snuggling really?  Short of punching her in the mouth hard enough to require her to need a room of her own, I wasn't keeping her out of my wife's private hospital room.  She then went on to proselytize, pulling out these little pill bottles with "prescriptions" written on them, and inside were bible verses.  She had this whole sermon prepared and was determined to deliver it. She wasn't there to help my wife...she was there to seek attention, period." 

Another delivered a pan of Lasagna to the hospital room...like, what am I gonna do with a steaming hot pan of Lasagna in the hospital?  Then wrote me a note a week later demanding her pan back. 

The best was the moron that decided that "Laying on hands" was the trick.  Laid his hands right the snuggle on my wife's shattered left arm.  I had security remove that idiot. 

So, sorry if I came off a bit harsh.  It wasn't directed at you.  In my opinion, Canadians in general are some of the nicest people on the planet.  I've also trained with your soldiers, and have a healthy respect for them as well.  Knowing nothing else about you, other than you ride a Valk and love your wife, I would have to conclude you are a helluva good person.   

If I lived in Canada, where the threat level is lower, I probably wouldn't feel as compelled to carry.  But I don't.  I also spend money on the right gear, a metric fuckton of insurance, and riding as safe as I can.  I did go to the gym once, but they have mirrors there.  I know what I look like, which is why I am at the Gym!  I did five diddly-squats and left.  I'm in shape.  Round IS a shape.   

[The emperor has no clothes]

I have nothing to add to this. But I just wanted to say I appreciate both of your comments and how thoughtful and respectful they were delivered . 

[Valk_Ridin_Soldier]

Well VRS....I cant say I agree with your new views of God.  That made me sad to read actually.  However, I agree whole heartedly with your rationale for carrying, for self protection. 

I do not believe that God (yes I know he is real) wants us to be passively standing by waiting to be a victim.  He blessed us with a mind (like you say) to rationally figure out that we can and should defend our selves and our loved ones and  well ANYONE that becomes threatened by someone intent to do harm.

Evil is alive and well, its also part of our job as Christians to do a better job than we have done in the past of bringing more light into the darkness.  I find that having my .357 tucked in my waist band holster doesn't impede my ability to serve God in any way he calls me.......so I trust God and practice with my .357 at the same time.  I don't see an issue there.

First, let me express my heartfelt and sincere respect for the CMA and its members.  That is a truly awesome organization.  I have seen the CMA chapters do more in terms of actually helping people than a lot of churches ten times their size.  I also believe that in the absence of a church, every single one of them would be the decent, caring, generous people that they are.  They're just wired that way, all the way to the core of their being.  Nature? Nurture?  I dunno.  Pick.  Never met a CMA member that wasn't a great person, probably never will.  

That .357?  It's real.  And you're right, it doesn't impede your ability to "serve".  I know nothing about you as an individual, but by association, I am confident you've done some good things for people...probably a lot of good things.  That .357 doesn't stop you at all.  

Second, We don't agree on the existence or non-existence of God.  I respect your views, but I do not agree with them.  You stated that you know he is real.  How?  

There is a difference between knowing something and believing something.  When it comes to God, you don't get to know.  For that matter, neither do I.  Maybe there is a God.  If there is a God, he's a cruel, sadistic and capricious being.  Some, he blesses with a nice family, wealth, health, a nice place to live, and plenty of food.  Others get mowed down by drunk drivers, starve to death, live under horrible conditions, get cancer, and die in wars- regardless of whether they are a believer or not.  Now, if a person does the same...he's a bastard of immense proportions.  Imagine a government official or a CEO or a Military General acting the same way.  

What I do know is this:  Christians have mastered the art of apologetics and self supporting circular logic, and then ignoring or deflecting anything that doesn't fit the narrative.  God loves us, is all powerful, sent his only son, etc...but ya know, he lets bad crap happen to us, makes us suffer, because, ya know, Sin and all. Don't worry.  It'll all work out in eternity when we all get to go to Heaven. He made us imperfect, condemns us to hell for our sins (or 'original sin' in case we don't sin), but we get a get out of hell free card if we profess to believe in Jesus as a Savior.  Oh, and witness...get others to believe...evangelize...bring others to the church.  Kind of a watered down Crusade when rulers used religion to justify wars of conquest.  Religion is a form of societal control.  Even now, Churches spend millions of dollars on buying political influence...no different from the NRA or the Chemical industry or big oil.  

Sorry man.  Can't buy into the paradigm any more, because it doesn't hold up to thorough examination.  Just can't do it.  

[hubcapsc]

Sorry man.

Us too. It is everyone's choice to accept or reject Christ.

-Mike

[solo1]

There is a lot of good thoughtful beliefs on both sides.

As a longtime member of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, I, too, am extremely tired of Bible thumpers. You;ll might note that our church never makes the news, we just calmly and quietly try to live our Faith the best that we can.

 I recently broke it up with a nice lady who was trying to save the World.  .  She seemed to be a church hopper, just couldn't find a religion that suited her, I guess.  she told me that she went to someone's death bed and tried to" bring him to Jesus"  but he told her to get out.   When she told me,later, that her church of choice, that day, 'converted' a Catholic to the Christian Faith, that was enough!

 I probably don't evangelize as much as I should and I don't try to 'convert' any one.  I have a simple Faith which, I would hope, people would respect.  Interfering with one's family in dire circumstances, Christian or not, is offensive to me.

It was my experience to have my wife die at an early age, and as I was walking back to see her alive for the last time, with my Pastor, I thought about those who don't believe.

Jesus said to wipe the dust from my feet and leave those who don't believe and that I'll do, showing the same respect to unbelievers that I would demand because of my Faith.

Our Faith says that we are not to murder. It also say that we can defend ourselves and our loved ones.  Taking the life of someone who threatens me with deadly force is not murder.  Therefore, I carry  a .40 Sig.   

I cannot speak for Canadians, I have no idea of crime rates there but here, i have the Right to carry and I do.

Wayne, Solo1

[Donny O.]

question:  for those of you who carry conceal legally,  do you do it on say your employers worksite such as in an office/warehouse/job site or do you leave the gun in your vehicle in the parking lot?

Reason why I ask is a lot of places at work have a sign that says gun free zone or no guns allowed plainly written on the entrance doors getting into work.  I was told that technically that also means NOT on the premises say in your parked car on the employers' property anywhere.  One could get into trouble getting fired I would imagine if mgmt/HR found out that a gun was in your vehicle on their premises or for sure bringing into work while on the job.  Thoughts??

I'm all for it to be perfectly honest since even in small town America,  I see near monthly locally crazies shooting or harming  others by using their vehicles as a weapon while on the road.    People are becoming more violent every single year it seems like with no regard for human life or what consequences their crazed behavior may bring.

the rule in Wisconsin is that an employer may tell you you're not allowed to have it in work or on the property, but your vehicle is your property....even if it is on their parking lot(property) you can have it in your car...it can not leave the vehicle and they can not punish you for having it in your vehicle.  there was a guy fired a few years back for exactly that and it turned into a big law suit.

as for me I don't carry as much as I would like but it is usually in my car with me then goes in the house with me.  I need my wife to get her CC just so if I need to go pay for gas, or I forget it in the glove box and she takes my truck then she will still be legal.  she is not into carrying a gun but i'm still trying to talk her into it.  when I first got a handgun I left it on the dresser in the bedroom....she asked why I left it over across the room.  I said because your not fond of them so keeping it away from you.  her reply was well if someone breaks in it's not going to do any good over there....so it's now kept about 1' from my head while sleeping....and another stashed in the living room where we spend the 2nd most amount of time at home.  

When I do carry it all depends on the situation on which gun I carry.  I have a NAA .22magnum with folding grip/clip.  fits/clips in my front pocket nice and easy and never know its there.  other times I will open carry my hi-point C9(about to get bashed for that), or if on the bike it is concealed under my jacket, and winter it is concealed under a jacket......haven't bought bigger pants(or lost weight) to IWB carry it.

as for thoughts/comments on a few other things that have been mentioned....and only speaking for Wisconsin.....there are no 'printing' laws.  so I have also "concealed" when it is not really concealed and obvious what is there depending on attire.  Open carrying I have not yet had any negative comments.  in a gas station one day had my 92 yr old next door neighbor reach out and tap my gun and said what is that....my reply was that the world isn't getting any better....he said well then I feel safer.  same gas station on a different day the clerk said he felt safer with me in there.  few times it has sparked up a gun conversation....which I welcome because i'm far from an expert and willing to hear reviews of other weapons/experiences/etc regarding the subject.

there is also a federal law I don't think many know about called 'peaceable journey law' allowing you to transport firearms in our car across state lines....some provisions, caveats, provisos, quid pro quo apply so read that law.  Illinois does not recognize anyone's CC permit but you can carry one in your vehicle in Illinois as long as it only leaves the vehicle to be placed in the trunk.  i'm close to the border and have to visit family, or drive through heading to a different state so I had to find out what I can and cant do there.

and WOOHOO....my first post.  been reading the board for almost a year and finally posted!!

[Valkorado]

Quote:

 "carry my hi-point C9(about to get bashed for that)"

Nope, I won't bash you for that.  So it looks like a large brick.  It'll do you a heckuva lot more good than a brick if you ever need it.  I have one of their inexpensive 9mm carbines.  It works!

[solo1]

 other times I will open carry my hi-point C9(about to get bashed for that)QUOTE by Donny O

Nope!  I have an inexpensive but not cheap 4095 HiPoint carbine. I can depend on it to reach out if need be.  It's heavy but is reliable AND accurate. 20 round group of 3 inches at 50 yards.

I also carry a NAA.22 mag in my car all of the time as a BUG. Mainly for car jackers at three feet, it'll work.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

 other times I will open carry my hi-point C9(about to get bashed for that)

Not a thing wrong with Hi-Points. You can spend $1500 on a carbine and still not have a better gun than the Hi-Point carbines are.

[Chrisj CMA]

Well VRS....I cant say I agree with your new views of God.  That made me sad to read actually.  However, I agree whole heartedly with your rationale for carrying, for self protection. 

I do not believe that God (yes I know he is real) wants us to be passively standing by waiting to be a victim.  He blessed us with a mind (like you say) to rationally figure out that we can and should defend our selves and our loved ones and  well ANYONE that becomes threatened by someone intent to do harm.

Evil is alive and well, its also part of our job as Christians to do a better job than we have done in the past of bringing more light into the darkness.  I find that having my .357 tucked in my waist band holster doesn't impede my ability to serve God in any way he calls me.......so I trust God and practice with my .357 at the same time.  I don't see an issue there.

First, let me express my heartfelt and sincere respect for the CMA and its members.  That is a truly awesome organization.  I have seen the CMA chapters do more in terms of actually helping people than a lot of churches ten times their size.  I also believe that in the absence of a church, every single one of them would be the decent, caring, generous people that they are.  They're just wired that way, all the way to the core of their being.  Nature? Nurture?  I dunno.  Pick.  Never met a CMA member that wasn't a great person, probably never will.  

That .357?  It's real.  And you're right, it doesn't impede your ability to "serve".  I know nothing about you as an individual, but by association, I am confident you've done some good things for people...probably a lot of good things.  That .357 doesn't stop you at all.  

Second, We don't agree on the existence or non-existence of God.  I respect your views, but I do not agree with them.  You stated that you know he is real.  How?  

There is a difference between knowing something and believing something.  When it comes to God, you don't get to know.  For that matter, neither do I.  Maybe there is a God.  If there is a God, he's a cruel, sadistic and capricious being.  Some, he blesses with a nice family, wealth, health, a nice place to live, and plenty of food.  Others get mowed down by drunk drivers, starve to death, live under horrible conditions, get cancer, and die in wars- regardless of whether they are a believer or not.  Now, if a person does the same...he's a bastard of immense proportions.  Imagine a government official or a CEO or a Military General acting the same way.  

What I do know is this:  Christians have mastered the art of apologetics and self supporting circular logic, and then ignoring or deflecting anything that doesn't fit the narrative.  God loves us, is all powerful, sent his only son, etc...but ya know, he lets bad crap happen to us, makes us suffer, because, ya know, Sin and all. Don't worry.  It'll all work out in eternity when we all get to go to Heaven. He made us imperfect, condemns us to hell for our sins (or 'original sin' in case we don't sin), but we get a get out of hell free card if we profess to believe in Jesus as a Savior.  Oh, and witness...get others to believe...evangelize...bring others to the church.  Kind of a watered down Crusade when rulers used religion to justify wars of conquest.  Religion is a form of societal control.  Even now, Churches spend millions of dollars on buying political influence...no different from the NRA or the Chemical industry or big oil.  

Sorry man.  Can't buy into the paradigm any more, because it doesn't hold up to thorough examination.  Just can't do it.  

You asked how I know there is a God.  I know because I know how I felt different inside after I gave my heart  to Christ.  Also the times God has intervened in my life it was  something that would have been impossible for anything or anyone but God to have done those things.  It's a relationship that you just cannot deny once it begins.

Hope that helps, that's the best way I know how to explain it.

[Valk_Ridin_Soldier]

I am sorry I hijacked this thread. 

Getting back to the topic...Concealed carry.

Almost everywhere, almost always.  Wallet, keys, glasses, gun (s).  I have been known to carry a backup.  (this cute SCCY Cpx2).  Depending on mood/weather/alignment of the stars/which door I leave from that day it's either an XD Gen2 3" or the S&W VE9.  Once in a while, when I wanna feel "Old School" I have a stainless S&W 5906. 

Open carry?  Generally not, unless I am at the range, then it's a XDM 5.25" match grade sexy beast of a pistol. 

When Riding?  Of course.  But it's not gonna be something I flash to that moron that just cut me off.  he has a 3000 lb car.  Even if I can shoot from a moving motorcycle, he still has the upper hand.  A gun is not used to make your point during a confrontation.  He has a car/truck/minivan, you have a bike.  You lose.  Flash a gun, they run you over, claim you threatened them with the gun.  Suck it up and move on.  They're miserable anyway and wish they could be riding like you. 

Are you carrying?  Then practice.  It's not enough to just carry.  Go to the range, get good with it.  There's all these guys at my gun club that are SO much better than I am with a pistol...I always listen to them. I let them teach me.  I do what I can as far as shooting well, and let them come to me.  I learned more from 30 minutes with a retired FBI guy than most of the NRA classes I have taken about drawing from the holster. 

Now, I go through about 500 rds of 9mm ammo every couple of months at the range.  Yeah, all my pistols are 9mm.  (buy in bulk) For a long time, I spent as much money on classes (NRA and others) as I did on ammo.  That's on top of being in the Army for 22 years...but that's all M-4, M-16, and M24 training, with the occasional trip to the pistol range.  I think I have more grenade launcher training than I do pistol training from the Army. 

Is it concealed?  No, I mean really concealed?  I am fanatical about that.  Too many people carry a gun as if to say "Back off, I have a gun, don't even THINK about cutting in front of me at the Wal-mart."  And don't get me started about these "open carry" demonstrators that carry AR 15s into the damn starbucks or whatever.  I put it on, and leave it alone.  Don't touch it, adjust it, "flash it" by flicking your shirt up, whatever.  If I draw, I am really, really close to shooting you.  Prior to that, I am assessing the situation, likely spotting issues before they become critical, and noping the heck out of there. At a biker bar where one club is there, and a rival club shows up?  Check please.  Go somewhere else.  I don't want to shoot anyone else, ever.  Been there, done that, got the legal bills to prove it.  A justified homicide will cost you more than a 3rd DUI defense, trust me.  (Never had a DUI, but...)

Is it prohibited at that location?  90% of the time, it's not an issue, unless they are doing pat down searches or screening...airports, courthouses, etc.  Otherwise, what they don't see won't be an issue. 

Cop pulls me over?  Hands in plain sight, empty.  Not required in Virginia (it is in other states), but before we go for through the license and registration routine, it's "Officer, You will find me absolutely compliant and respectful throughout this encounter, but before I move my hands, I want to inform you that I am carrying (xxxgun) at (xxxposition).  I have a permit of course.  I want to understand and comply with your instructions regarding that before we move on.  They aren't a threat unless you startle them with a gun...Then theirs is out of the holster and pointed in your direction.   Playing "Surprise the cop" with a gun is like playing Russian roulette, catch, or gunfight at the OK corral.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

[Chrisj CMA]

I am sorry I hijacked this thread. 

Getting back to the topic...Concealed carry.

Almost everywhere, almost always.  Wallet, keys, glasses, gun (s).  I have been known to carry a backup.  (this cute SCCY Cpx2).  Depending on mood/weather/alignment of the stars/which door I leave from that day it's either an XD Gen2 3" or the S&W VE9.  Once in a while, when I wanna feel "Old School" I have a stainless S&W 5906. 

Open carry?  Generally not, unless I am at the range, then it's a XDM 5.25" match grade sexy beast of a pistol. 

When Riding?  Of course.  But it's not gonna be something I flash to that moron that just cut me off.  he has a 3000 lb car.  Even if I can shoot from a moving motorcycle, he still has the upper hand.  A gun is not used to make your point during a confrontation.  He has a car/truck/minivan, you have a bike.  You lose.  Flash a gun, they run you over, claim you threatened them with the gun.  Suck it up and move on.  They're miserable anyway and wish they could be riding like you. 

Are you carrying?  Then practice.  It's not enough to just carry.  Go to the range, get good with it.  There's all these guys at my gun club that are SO much better than I am with a pistol...I always listen to them. I let them teach me.  I do what I can as far as shooting well, and let them come to me.  I learned more from 30 minutes with a retired FBI guy than most of the NRA classes I have taken about drawing from the holster. 

Now, I go through about 500 rds of 9mm ammo every couple of months at the range.  Yeah, all my pistols are 9mm.  (buy in bulk) For a long time, I spent as much money on classes (NRA and others) as I did on ammo.  That's on top of being in the Army for 22 years...but that's all M-4, M-16, and M24 training, with the occasional trip to the pistol range.  I think I have more grenade launcher training than I do pistol training from the Army. 

Is it concealed?  No, I mean really concealed?  I am fanatical about that.  Too many people carry a gun as if to say "Back off, I have a gun, don't even THINK about cutting in front of me at the Wal-mart."  And don't get me started about these "open carry" demonstrators that carry AR 15s into the damn starbucks or whatever.  I put it on, and leave it alone.  Don't touch it, adjust it, "flash it" by flicking your shirt up, whatever.  If I draw, I am really, really close to shooting you.  Prior to that, I am assessing the situation, likely spotting issues before they become critical, and noping the heck out of there. At a biker bar where one club is there, and a rival club shows up?  Check please.  Go somewhere else.  I don't want to shoot anyone else, ever.  Been there, done that, got the legal bills to prove it.  A justified homicide will cost you more than a 3rd DUI defense, trust me.  (Never had a DUI, but...)

Is it prohibited at that location?  90% of the time, it's not an issue, unless they are doing pat down searches or screening...airports, courthouses, etc.  Otherwise, what they don't see won't be an issue. 

Cop pulls me over?  Hands in plain sight, empty.  Not required in Virginia (it is in other states), but before we go for through the license and registration routine, it's "Officer, You will find me absolutely compliant and respectful throughout this encounter, but before I move my hands, I want to inform you that I am carrying (xxxgun) at (xxxposition).  I have a permit of course.  I want to understand and comply with your instructions regarding that before we move on.  They aren't a threat unless you startle them with a gun...Then theirs is out of the holster and pointed in your direction.   Playing "Surprise the cop" with a gun is like playing Russian roulette, catch, or gunfight at the OK corral.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

I have been pulled over a few times but not since I got my CCW license.  My plan is to hand the Drivers License and the CW card together without saying a word and then have my empty hands in view on the steering wheel.  I have never been vocal except to answer a question from the LEO and I think that's the best approach.  There is no way of verbally informing the cop you have a gun without causing tension.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I am sorry I hijacked this thread. 

Getting back to the topic...Concealed carry.

Almost everywhere, almost always.  Wallet, keys, glasses, gun (s).  I have been known to carry a backup.  (this cute SCCY Cpx2).  Depending on mood/weather/alignment of the stars/which door I leave from that day it's either an XD Gen2 3" or the S&W VE9.  Once in a while, when I wanna feel "Old School" I have a stainless S&W 5906. 

Open carry?  Generally not, unless I am at the range, then it's a XDM 5.25" match grade sexy beast of a pistol. 

When Riding?  Of course.  But it's not gonna be something I flash to that moron that just cut me off.  he has a 3000 lb car.  Even if I can shoot from a moving motorcycle, he still has the upper hand.  A gun is not used to make your point during a confrontation.  He has a car/truck/minivan, you have a bike.  You lose.  Flash a gun, they run you over, claim you threatened them with the gun.  Suck it up and move on.  They're miserable anyway and wish they could be riding like you. 

Are you carrying?  Then practice.  It's not enough to just carry.  Go to the range, get good with it.  There's all these guys at my gun club that are SO much better than I am with a pistol...I always listen to them. I let them teach me.  I do what I can as far as shooting well, and let them come to me.  I learned more from 30 minutes with a retired FBI guy than most of the NRA classes I have taken about drawing from the holster. 

Now, I go through about 500 rds of 9mm ammo every couple of months at the range.  Yeah, all my pistols are 9mm.  (buy in bulk) For a long time, I spent as much money on classes (NRA and others) as I did on ammo.  That's on top of being in the Army for 22 years...but that's all M-4, M-16, and M24 training, with the occasional trip to the pistol range.  I think I have more grenade launcher training than I do pistol training from the Army. 

Is it concealed?  No, I mean really concealed?  I am fanatical about that.  Too many people carry a gun as if to say "Back off, I have a gun, don't even THINK about cutting in front of me at the Wal-mart."  And don't get me started about these "open carry" demonstrators that carry AR 15s into the damn starbucks or whatever.  I put it on, and leave it alone.  Don't touch it, adjust it, "flash it" by flicking your shirt up, whatever.  If I draw, I am really, really close to shooting you.  Prior to that, I am assessing the situation, likely spotting issues before they become critical, and noping the heck out of there. At a biker bar where one club is there, and a rival club shows up?  Check please.  Go somewhere else.  I don't want to shoot anyone else, ever.  Been there, done that, got the legal bills to prove it.  A justified homicide will cost you more than a 3rd DUI defense, trust me.  (Never had a DUI, but...)

Is it prohibited at that location?  90% of the time, it's not an issue, unless they are doing pat down searches or screening...airports, courthouses, etc.  Otherwise, what they don't see won't be an issue. 

Cop pulls me over?  Hands in plain sight, empty.  Not required in Virginia (it is in other states), but before we go for through the license and registration routine, it's "Officer, You will find me absolutely compliant and respectful throughout this encounter, but before I move my hands, I want to inform you that I am carrying (xxxgun) at (xxxposition).  I have a permit of course.  I want to understand and comply with your instructions regarding that before we move on.  They aren't a threat unless you startle them with a gun...Then theirs is out of the holster and pointed in your direction.   Playing "Surprise the cop" with a gun is like playing Russian roulette, catch, or gunfight at the OK corral.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. 

I have been pulled over a few times but not since I got my CCW license.  My plan is to hand the Drivers License and the CW card together without saying a word and then have my empty hands in view on the steering wheel.  I have never been vocal except to answer a question from the LEO and I think that's the best approach.  There is no way of verbally informing the cop you have a gun without causing tension.

I think I will use VRS's advice.

[bigguy]

There is no way of verbally informing the cop you have a gun without causing tension.

A LEO on another forum pointed out that yelling "I have a gun!" to a police officer has the potential to end badly.

Another officer said that he once answered the question, "Do you want to see my gun?" with, "Not unless you want to see mine."

[Jess from VA]

Both VRS's and Jeff's methods are sound.  Except if I had a firearm on my person, after he saw the permit and made eye contact, I'd tell him so, and where, pleasantly (in addition to handing over the license and permit silently, and keeping my hands in sight and still, and exhibiting a pleasant, as opposed to a nervous or agitated demeanor).

At the beginning of a pull-over, most officers like to follow a routine with him doing the talking and asking questions, and you should not try to interrupt him or take over the conversation.  And how conversant you should be with any officer may depend on how good you are with conversation (frankly some are better than others).

[Valk_Ridin_Soldier]

I have been pulled over a few times but not since I got my CCW license.  My plan is to hand the Drivers License and the CW card together without saying a word and then have my empty hands in view on the steering wheel.  I have never been vocal except to answer a question from the LEO and I think that's the best approach.  There is no way of verbally informing the cop you have a gun without causing tension.

That sounds like a very good approach as well, but again, that requires digging the license out.  I don't want to be seen fumbling about.  Tension is a great word to use here.  He's doing probably the most dangerous thing cops do...pulling a car over.  He's already tense.  I assume he's had a shot of adrenaline as soon as he flips the lights on.  I want to diffuse that.  Just as we manage risks while riding, so are they during a car stop.  Those fingerprints he puts on your trunk as he walks up?  That's so they can prove he was at your car.  Dude is already thinking about "What if?".  He's on guard.  

When I get pulled over (Doesn't happen a lot any more, but going back a few years...) I get over as quickly as possible.  No chase means no further build up of adrenaline/tension.  I have actually hit the shoulder and stopped before they got turned around.  He saw me, I saw him see me, checked the speedo, saw 80 mph, knew he had me.  Why prolong it?  

If in a cage, I roll all the windows down and turn on the interior lights as I do so.  He can see inside the car as he approaches, tinted windows or not.  Relax, see, nothing to harm you here.  Hands open and empty.  No hostility.  Hands don't move unless authorized.

If on a bike, I shut off the ignition and put my hands on the grips.  I might even keep my kickstand up.  Cops think that if the kickstand is up, engine off, you can't turn and engage as easily.  I will ask to put the stand down.  (only been pulled over once on a bike.)  You got the drop on me, Tiger.  No problem here. Risk lowers, and tension along with it.  Hands still haven't moved.

I guess I prefer to have my hands in sight before he even gets out of the car.  Fingers open, eyes forward, not seeking a target.  

Verbally, I return the greeting he gives me, usually adding the correct modifier (Officer, deputy, trooper).  I speak loudly enough to be heard over traffic, but not too loud.  Respectful, whether I feel he is justified in pulling me over or not.  (They always have been, in my case.)  Hands still haven't moved.

Then state flatly, politely, hell, even pleasantly if you can "I intend to comply with all of your instructions, but first..."  Hands still don't move.  Head turned respectfully back toward the officer, but not so much as to effectively fix him as a target.  Remember, he's watching you carefully at this point.  The eyes almost always precede the hands.  A bad guy is going to seek the target, get a fix on them.  Good cops know that.  Hands are important, but the eyes are the precursor.  IF they move to the forward position (in front of the door hinge) to see you better, then make eye contact.  That's a sign that they are lowering their threat assessment.  From that point, follow instructions.  Be respectful.  No, you don't have to answer questions, but don't be a dick about it.  He got you.  If he starts prying, fishing, asking questions you don't want to answer, simply state "Sir, you are due a ton of respect for what you do, and with all that respect possible, I decline to answer any questions at this point."  (My favorite- And I say it with a smile- "I think am already in enough trouble, I don't need to start talking and dig myself a deeper hole.")  UNLESS he asks about weapons before I get to my spiel.  Then it's concise, clear, and accurate answers.  Hands still haven't moved.

From that point, follow instructions, slowly deliberately.  Hands move one at a time. No threat here, Trooper.  Worst case scenario here is you write a ticket, I write a check.  Let's keep it that way.  

I have gotten out of more tickets that way than I care to admit.  Never got a ticket I didn't deserve, but I have received quite a few breaks along the years.  I'd say I am about 75-80% successful in NOT getting a ticket.  (Yeah, in a car I tend to have a lead foot.)  I always decline permission to "look inside the vehicle" or however they word it...citing my years defending the 4th amendment as a soldier.  I never talk about where I am going or where I came from.  I don't answer questions.  I want to avoid "Hey, I'm coming from my friend's house over on third and main." when there was an incident in that area involving a suspect matching my description.  Or the very unlikely instance where something that isn't in my car to start with gets put there.  I stand on my rights.  I just do it respectfully.  Want to secure my pistol while we chat?  Sure.  Absolutely.  Safety first, I always say.  Go on, snap it out of the holster.  Yes it's loaded, one in the chamber.  Do your thing.  My hands are where you want them to be.  Take your time.  Might as well snag that pocket knife, too.  I don't want you to feel threatened in any way.  You go home tonight, so do I.  What's that?  Really?  Yessir.  I will slow down.  You have a good night, too.  Be safe.  

All this is predicated on the fact that I drive sober, don't break the law, and all that stuff.  

[Donny O.]

other times I will open carry my hi-point C9(about to get bashed for that)QUOTE by Donny O

Nope!  I have an inexpensive but not cheap 4095 HiPoint carbine. I can depend on it to reach out if need be.  It's heavy but is reliable AND accurate. 20 round group of 3 inches at 50 yards.

I also carry a NAA.22 mag in my car all of the time as a BUG. Mainly for car jackers at three feet, it'll work.

thats funny....my NAA .22 is nicknamed 'the noisy cricket'....get the MIB reference there!!  and the C9 we call it 'the rock'.