John Deere: Farmers can no longer repair their tractors

[Savago]

Interesting article about the subject:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware

Basically John Deere uses software to control basic functions in tractors and won't allow farmers to have access to either the software or the cables required to fix their tractors.

They are forced to use hacked software and reversed engineered cables acquired from Eastern Europe to be able to do the job.

For John Deere is quite profitable to have the monopoly of servicing the tractors. So basically you paid for a vehicle/tractor, but you don't really own it.

The hope is that some legislation can be approved to force the manufacturers to provide access to the tools to independent shops/farmers.

[Robert]

This is not new and the farmers are put at a real disadvantage. Mercedes Benz is the same way with some parts including transmissions,instrument clusters, shifters, and a host of other parts. Apple is fighting against consumers right to repair their own phones also. Companies are stopping a whole host of products from being repaired. All because of software copyright. Join the right to repair and help.


The Repair Association
Right to repair. org

http://repair.org/legislation/

This impacts everyone since the more mfgs start to enforce this then we will have no other place to go but back to the mfg for repair. It will be their pricing and availability that determines how,when,price or if we get our products or cars repaired. No longer will you be able to do mods on cars either since they require software to run. Any product even today can be subject to this.

[hubcapsc]

When you're a mega-farmer and you're using giant techno-gps-driven John Deere
rigs on vast acreages, there's probably a reason to have John Deere in charge of
your software...



But now that there's hundred dollar sensors hooked onto your every hydraulic
joint so that you can see everything's status on your tractor's LCD screen,
it might be time to just run the bush hog with an 8N  ... some (most?)
people don't need all that wizz-bang stuff... family farmers who need to
harvest or plow NOW can be  screwed when they need to wait a day or two
for the John Deere man to come out and diagnose the failed hundred
dollar sensor, and by the time they pay for the John Deere man's time
and visit, it can get real expensive.

I'd guess that if John Deere would open source their software instead of
DRMing it, it wouldn't be long before companies would start selling
reasonable priced diagnostic equipment and farmers would start
learning how to use it. As it is, companies outside of the US are
reverse-engineering the John Deere software and selling gray-market
diagnostic tools. I don't know nothing about farming, but I know about
a particular computer video card manufacturer (NVIDIA) who won't
open source their firmware, and the reverse engineered NVIDIA
drivers in Linux suck, even though the people who designed them
are smart...

-Mike

[Skinhead]

While I am a big fan of self repair, Government is also part of the problem here, especially in the case of automobiles.  With the laws, regulations, and mandates that are, lately pretty much feel good arbitrary standards.  Manufacturers are forced to install complex and expensive systems that require electronic controls and software to function (or malfunction in some cases).  Adaptive cruise control, electronic power steering, electronic power brakes, electronic throttle control, traction control, enhanced stability systems, remote start, and God help us, autonomous vehicles require several modules to control each  system and they also interact with other systems on the vehicle to prevent catastrophes in case of a malfunction.  I shudder to think what a red neck with a computer might be capable of.  You've seen the diesel pickups that the drivers with a small penis put a chip in to produce huge clouds of soot have done, yet the government requires all diesels to now use DEF to keep convertors functioning and reduce particulate emissions, yet Jody and Billy Bob, singlehandedly defeat the regulation, and basically waste the increased cost of your vehicles

 Vehicle manufacturers doing business in the US are required to make tools available to aftermarket repair shops, but those tools are expensive, and basically consist of a computer and software.

[Serk]

Thanks DMCA...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

[MarkT]

I just bought a service manual for our 2015 Mazda CX5 online from rapidmanuals.com.  The PDF file has 6788 pages.  Roughly 10 Encyclopedia Britannica volumes.  Not including the 183MB of supplements.  I was just looking for wiring diagrams with wire colors so I could identify wires from their colors like we do on our bikes.  No wire colors identified in the diagrams.  Clearly service is intended to be done by well-heeled and technically equipped service centers.

Last year I needed to get a small tractor (a real one, not one of those bogus dumbed-down garden tractors from the big box stores). Went to John Deere first.  The bottom line, was my impression of them is they are the Harleys of the tractor world.  Overpriced among other negs. Did some digging into reviews and forums & youtube.  Found a lot of good stuff on Kubota - assembled in Georgia (just like JD) and there's a big dealer only 15 miles away by back roads - I can drive the tractor there w/o loading it on a trailer.  The owner's manual is clearly written to help the owner do his own service - pretty comprehensive.  And not expecting the service to require expensive technical tools.

[oldsmokey]

Progress, Technology, Competition, Greed and REGULATIONS shall not be denied.
I just keep hanging on.
Kubota makes a great machine as Mahindra does well also.

[old2soon]

See the VolksWagen debacle for what companies can REALLY eff up when Not watched. Ask my brother-da prez-he ARE livin that particular nightmare! Far as that not working on it even though YOU purchased it-NOT changing an time soon. You have puter geeks tellin mechanics what to do. So who's wrong if the fix ain't right?  RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

When I first read of the English Luddites, I thought... how quaint and backward thinking.

Now, I can't find a local chapter to join.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

Mill owners took to shooting protesters and eventually the movement was brutally suppressed with military force.  

[scooperhsd]

See the VolksWagen debacle for what companies can REALLY eff up when Not watched. Ask my brother-da prez-he ARE livin that particular nightmare! Far as that not working on it even though YOU purchased it-NOT changing an time soon. You have puter geeks tellin mechanics what to do. So who's wrong if the fix ain't right?  RIDE SAFE.

Yes I have one of the Affected VW TDI's - a 2015 Golf Se.  We LOVE IT.  The 1st phase fix has been done and there is minimal to zero impact on the drivability / MPG of the vehicle. Plus we got over $4000 for our trouble to bring it in - and we'll get half that again when they do the exhaust aftertreatment replacement Next year.

My take on the whole debacle is that VW pulled a fast one on the US EPA that they would not have found out about (because EPA was NOT doing any spot checking - just taking the car makers at their word). EPA really had some egg on their face when WVU did some testing and found what was happening.

[Robert]

VW diesels I think are some of the best cars on the road. If you can find them the Audi Q5, VW Toureg and the Porsche are all great and there are some really good prices on them right now. The emissions exploit is bs and someone had to pay some real money just to find out this was an issue. They get anywhere from 40 to 50 mpg on the highway and the smell and inconvenience of a diesel is almost gone and they are quiet and quick on top of it. That had to hurts someones sales numbers since the demand for these cars was increasing and the owners gave them good reviews.

One thing about this whole issue is in your car like Mercedes if your transmission goes then you have to go to the dealer even though there are shops around that can mechanically repair your car. The reason is the computer is in the transmission. So instead of paying 3k for a trans you can be in the 10k range and if they sell you a trans you have to install it and then tow it to the dealer to get it programed.

This is the same even with rear ends, yes rear ends because some have computers that control the slip and torque and have a computer on them.

You cannot buy some parts even though they are easily installed and could be made without the use of this type of technology. As pointed out some MFG do make their product repairable so why would a MFG make their product dealer only.

[art]

Tuned up my 77 Dodge class B motorhome yesterday,cost $19.  I only did it because it kept on stalling. It was a big project. I had a small vac. hos fall of the carb. Ye it has one of those.

[cookiedough]

not just john deere, but most vehicles made the past few years are getting harder and harder to work on. 

Pretty soon us dinosaurs who want to do the basics will not be able to so even on the cheapest of vehicles out there now being sold new.

[scooperhsd]

not just john deere, but most vehicles made the past few years are getting harder and harder to work on. 

Pretty soon us dinosaurs who want to do the basics will not be able to so even on the cheapest of vehicles out there now being sold new.

Good reason to keep your "old stuff" running as long as possible....

[..]

An old read but goes hand in hand with not being able to work on your own machines

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/05/monsanto200805

[Reb]

This is not new and the farmers are put at a real disadvantage. Mercedes Benz is the same way with some parts including transmissions,instrument clusters, shifters, and a host of other parts. Apple is fighting against consumers right to repair their own phones also. Companies are stopping a whole host of products from being repaired. All because of software copyright. Join the right to repair and help.


The Repair Association
Right to repair. org

http://repair.org/legislation/

This impacts everyone since the more mfgs start to enforce this then we will have no other place to go but back to the mfg for repair. It will be their pricing and availability that determines how,when,price or if we get our products or cars repaired. No longer will you be able to do mods on cars either since they require software to run. Any product even today can be subject to this.

 
Them damn John Deere Engineers purposely putting there customers at a disadvantage. It's a damn shame I tell yah.

[Robert]

An old read but goes hand in hand with not being able to work on your own machines

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/05/monsanto200805

Its pretty scary and underhanded what Monsanto is doing. If you plant a field next to a field planted with Monsanto seeds and they cross pollinate then Monsanto comes after you.

[Robert]

 
Them damn John Deere Engineers purposely putting there customers at a disadvantage. It's a damn shame I tell yah.

I wonder if you be more concerned if someone said you could not repair your Valkyrie?

[Gavin_Sons]

 
Them damn John Deere Engineers purposely putting there customers at a disadvantage. It's a damn shame I tell yah.

I wonder if you be more concerned if someone said you could not repair your Valkyrie?

It would help if he had a valkyrie  technology is getting better and better but the people buying these machines are not getting any smarter. If you can afford a million dollar tractor you can afford to have it fixed.

[Robert]

It would help if he had a valkyrie  technology is getting better and better but the people buying these machines are not getting any smarter. If you can afford a million dollar tractor you can afford to have it fixed.

Well if no choice and price fixing is acceptable to you then maybe, but the fact that he doesnt have a Valkyrie is of little consequence because, wait till you buy a car and there is no choice but take it to the dealer along with anything that uses programing. It applies to everything electronic in our lives from our phone to cars to thermostats even toasters but to replace a phone or toaster is pretty easy to replace a car that cannot be repaired since the dealer set cost is to high and there is no competition is not so easy. I would also mention that if something small goes on a million dollar tractor and you cannot buy the part because of this and the dealer charges a couple of thousand then that is ok also. The lost time to repair the high cost of repair, sometimes its a simple repair made complicated. I'm sure you bring your car to the dealer every time it needs repair right? The issue is what if the dealer says you need a few thousand dollar repair on the tractor and you think its not the issue, who are you going to verify this with since the dealer and MFG will have effectively eliminated any competition? Its about our lives that depend on products to work as advertised and when there is a problem be able to repair those products at places of our choice. It keeps the dealers honest and do you really think the dealers and MFGs will have facilities all over to be able to handle this type of volume? Would they care since you have no where else to go? Just a few thoughts on this that you may not have considered. Its not about bad mouthing a brand its about  corp America limiting our ability to use the products they sold us.

Man made security or anything that man makes someone can unmake it and copy it or clone it. But these type of limitations on product repair or use has nothing to do with securing copy right, making things safer or better, it has to do with control of repair a very lucrative area.

BMW KTL 1600 you cannot repair this bike without the dealer because of the same software problem. If you could afford a 20k scanner from the dealer then you have to buy updates for the scanner. I wonder how many make aftermarket scanners to repair these bikes or who could afford to buy the scanner or updates or even repair their own bike? One reason I didn't buy the bike and bought a 14 Valkyrie because I could repair it.

We cannot play certain media like BluRay or certain YouTube videos because of the same rules. Even if you buy it have the players for it and are legal in every way, but who are you going to complain to?

Do you wonder why the some big companies are using the cloud and advertising it as the latest and greatest? Or do you wonder why some software MFG's are now going to subscriptions, its because technically YOU OWN NOTHING, thats right you pay for it, you use it, you suffer if it doesn't work and cant get help but you dont own anything. That is the very same rule being applied here with tractors, cars, phones or anything.

So now let me ask you, are you sure your ok with legally having to defend yourself, if a company says you repaired, changed or did something to a product that the company legally owns the running software of? Many can afford to repair a million dollar tractor but what happens to the rest of the cars, appliances, toys, phones, medical equipment and software that we do or dont own? What happens to a 10 or 15 year old car, tractor that needs a repair and the MFG is no longer providing the information to that product? Legally on cars and motorcycles I think its 10 years that they have to keep parts available for. Its the scope of this rule that is the problem, it effects everyone.

It was the courts that made rulings to allow people information to repair not the goodwill or decisions of the companies. It shows intent of what the companies are trying to do. Look at Monsanto as a great example of a corrupt corp using this law to its intended end. 

I guess its only me that has been really been affected by this law and sees the far reaching consequences of it carried to its end. I work around it everyday as do many. I wish more would want to stop it now, but lets just go on till we cannot because, I'm not affected that much, really?

[cookiedough]

 
Them damn John Deere Engineers purposely putting there customers at a disadvantage. It's a damn shame I tell yah.

I wonder if you be more concerned if someone said you could not repair your Valkyrie?

It would help if he had a valkyrie  technology is getting better and better but the people buying these machines are not getting any smarter. If you can afford a million dollar tractor you can afford to have it fixed.

that is what I was thinking but did not want to offend any RICH farmers on this website.  The local dairy farmers I know have tractors that they can drive and sort of no one else until they get used to the gear shifting.  I drove age 17 or 18 an old, old Oliver tractor and could NEVER find the right gear never driven it before unlike the old farmer just laughing at me.  He let me more so drive the powershift automatic old john deere tractor with cab, but of course did not have a/c or any other fancy gadgets on it.  I just wish he had as is normal an exhaust smokestack on and put a new one on since the black diesel fumes blowing right into my face in front of the cab (not up and over as would be normal) was getting me sick.  It seemed like weekly for sure, near daily, he was trying to fix machinery spending 1/2 his days repairing.  On thing for sure farmers have to have a lot of tolerance and patience for breaking things and fixing them up.  I can count a handful of times I broke on a rock in the field a mower triangular blade cutting hay.  

[Robert]

If you hire a company to harvest your field do you think you will not pay for the additional cost of maybe having another combine or tractor to do the job since they cannot repair it anymore? Do you think a farmer that springs big bucks for a new tractor and has limited funds will not be hurt if that tractor goes down and they have to wait for the MFG? Do you think if you have a truck used for everyday use and cannot repair it unless you bring it to the dealer would inconvenience you or financially feel it? I dont think anyone here is not effected by it they may just not know it.

You dont have to be rich to be hurt by this just complacent.

[..]

Friend has a BMW GS1200. I think it's a 2005.

He wants to add some extra driving lights at the front. He can't do it himself because the CANBUS system wont function correctly afterwards.

Oh sure you can buy a nifty aftermarket thingamabob for over $100 to help you bypass the whatsit.

All to fit a couple of $11 LED lights.

[Gavin_Sons]

I live in a farming community. 98% of tne farmers here have older equipment. There are several that have new top of the line stuff. They are the ones that spend millions each year and I know these guys. They say it is kinda nice because they buy service agreements with the equipment and technicians are on call 24/7/365. They no longer spend hours and hours fixing their own equipment. Less down time means more money in their pockets.

[Reb]

I live in a farming community. 98% of tne farmers here have older equipment. There are several that have new top of the line stuff. They are the ones that spend millions each year and I know these guys. They say it is kinda nice because they buy service agreements with the equipment and technicians are on call 24/7/365. They no longer spend hours and hours fixing their own equipment. Less down time means more money in their pockets.

You are correct Gavin,

And no Robert, I'm the least concerned on this subject and John Deere's CAG & DAG (Customer/Dealer Advocate Groups) reviewed the subject of this article a few years ago and released a product confidential report on there research from interviewing various JD product owners. I'll explain it in more detail when I get to my computer as I don't feel like typing a report from my cell phone.

[Robert]

I think you work for John Deere dont you?

  I dont bring that up except to say I appreciate the reports and what they represent but I think that there may be some bias in there also. I think it may be more of an issue than you say. But this is, NOT, only about Deere, as I have said many times and if you want to focus on them then that is okay also. I would rather not though but they are in the original post and its a company that has been having issues lately that most have heard about.

The argument is really about the DMCA and how companies are using it to stop buyers from repairing their own products. That should be a concern to everyone since we all have products that are covered by this and companies that reflect the attitudes below.

Tractor Hack: Farmers are harnessing hacked software for John Deere repairs
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/07/25/farmers-fight-for-right-to-repair-their-own-tractors.html
Mick Minchow, a Nebraska farmer for more than 40 years, is among the many who are fed up, reports Lincoln Journal Star. As it currently stands, any problem with his John Deere 8235 R requires a trip to the dealer and costs him important time.

As reported in Motherboard, a thriving crop of black-market hackers in Europe is creating and selling software hacks to John Deere software, which local mechanics in America’s breadbasket are downloading and using to repair the company’s tractors.

“You want to replace a transmission and you take it to an independent mechanic — he can put in the new transmission, but the tractor can’t drive out of the shop,” Kevin Kenney, a farmer in Nebraska, told Motherboard. “Deere charges $230, plus $130 an hour, for a technician to drive out and plug a connector into their USB port to authorize the part.”

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/
In a particularly spectacular display of corporate delusion, John Deere—the world’s largest agricultural machinery maker —told the Copyright Office that farmers don’t own their tractors. Because computer code snakes through the DNA of modern tractors, farmers receive “an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.”

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/farmers-using-hacked-firmware-to-bypass-john-deeres-software-stranglehold/

 Kerry Adams, hasn’t been able to fix an expensive transplanter because he doesn’t have access to the diagnostic software he needs. He’s not alone: many farmers are opting for older, computer-free equipment.)

I guess I should really explain one way how this DMCA is being used against me personally. I own a Mercedes, I even have the software and tools to repair it but they will not sell me certain parts. So I cannot repair my own car, the electronic software is designed to need a tool to program which I have, but it does not have to be designed this way. Most MFG's could design it plug and play but they dont. You buy a part and it communicates and learns from the modules in what ever they are being installed in, no programing needed.

[old2soon]

Simple really-the lawyers got holt of "stuff". And apologies to my Barrister friends here bouts. RIDE SAFE.

[DirtyDan]

Simple really-the lawyers got holt of "stuff". And apologies to my Barrister friends here bouts. RIDE SAFE.

Lawyers........ why does New Jersey have the most toxic waste and California has the most lawyers ?

Because New Jersey got first pick

Dan

[scooperhsd]

I hate the DMCA with a passion.

All these anecdotes are a good example of why.

[hairyteeth]

As a fourth generation farmer I heard a "no joke" joke about the farmer that sees the two ton John Deere rolling repair shop on wheels pull up onto his field headland. The farmer pulls up and stops says "hey what's up"? Well I could see on my computer screen you were planting, and your tractor sent a message your about to break down!
One of my worst technology glitches occurred last fall harvesting soybeans on auto steer. A gps controlled steering valve failed sending the combine hard right. Fortunately there was no damage but the lesson that you cannot trust it was enforced yet again. What I also didn't like was when I called the dealer with the error code he told me "oh you have one of those". Meaning a part that is a fast seller and doesn't last, they had replaced 4 of them in the last week. In my case it was 1200 for the valve plus service call and labor 2k. They sell you on the fact that you have to be competitive with your neighbor, which is true, but lately I feel less like the owner and more like the slave. HT