PBS Ken Burns The Vietnam War

[shortleg]

  I found the first episode  very good with how the French stole the country
for a colony.
    We made a mistake to take over from the French.
 That was the only time I heard my Father come out against the government  was with this war.
   When he came back in 1966 he was angry  and wanted us out.
 His opinion was the French should have given the country back to the people
like the British  finally did  with India.
   Think of all the lives that would have been saved if the French had not gone into the area.

[Jess from VA]

The fact that blew me away (from tonight's show) was that some 42,000 American Indians served in Vietnam.

[Patrick]

I too was reluctant to watch, but, wanted to see if there could be more history behind it to be learned.

I've learned more from it and thought I knew quite a bit before.  I guess the main thing I've learned is to not believe a damn thing any government tells you.

[hubcapsc]

I can't reliably pick up PBS without going outside
and spinning my antenna, and then I'd have to
be there to watch when it comes on...

But reading what y'all have to say about it encouraged
me to learn how to add the PBS app to my
teevee streaming device (a firestick), and now I
have it installed and am to The Vietnam War
"start watching" button...

Thanks...

-Mike

[old2soon]

I've stated before I NEVER set foot on the soil of Nam. But I've Smelled it when flying the interdiction missions. Let's just say since this started and while watching it been choking back tears. It is a Very sobering look at what transpired before we-U S of A-got there and will probably show what transpired is transpiring after our departure. We as Americans have an extremely difficult time understanding the Asian mind set. I experienced things in The Phillipines Japan and Hong Kong that at the time and now that I truly did Not understand. I do know I don't know a Lot. I'm getting a better understanding of the Why of my Friend from High School and my Cousin perishing over there. NOT accepting it-but understanding it. And through out this look back and my own personal look back-How different would this have been-Vietnam-had Goldwater become POTUS? While  I can surmise I'll NEVER Know. To ALL Here who Served in the Nam-WELCOME HOME and THANK YOU.

[specialdose]

            As with many we have fought in war, down the road we have a amicable relationship with them, we do drive 1,000,s of Japanese cars. I think it is harder for those that were involved personally. They do make some good clothing and I have 2 riding jackets that are excellent. Having said that I do not think that Viet Nam would ever be a vacation destination for me. So far the series is interesting.

[doubletee]

So far, I've learned quite a bit. I thought I knew quite a bit before this. I guess it just goes to show that you can't believe what your government tells you, even today.

That is the main point I've had heavily reinforced by this series. I've always been cynical and mistrusting of any government, but this series, if factual, makes me despise politicians/government even more. LBJ was one of the biggest liars to the American people I've ever heard. (again with the caveat that the info is factual)

[doubletee]

I can't reliably pick up PBS without going outside
and spinning my antenna, and then I'd have to
be there to watch when it comes on...

But reading what y'all have to say about it encouraged
me to learn how to add the PBS app to my
teevee streaming device (a firestick), and now I
have it installed and am to The Vietnam War
"start watching" button...

Thanks...

-Mike

Not an advertisement and I have no connection.............

PBS is selling the series on DVD and Bluray for anyone interested and unable to watch it on PBS.

[JimmyG]

LBJ???  It grieves me to have to tell you that I can no longer due to Ladybird, what I did to ya'll in Viet Nam!   

Good soldiers, bad politicians.

[solo1]

I haven't watched it.  I have enough against the aresholes in DC now, don't need reinforcing.

I know enough to know that our Armed Services took a big hit from the gullible American citizens because of the pols micrormanaging the Vietnam War and the mass media looking for 'atrocities'

[old2soon]

Next store neighbor is an Army Nam Vet. He knows Not when or even IF he'll be able to watch. Said he lived it and THAT thank you very much was nuff for a couple life times. Last nights and other nights they show Pictures and relate the Mans service and we hear from family and friends about this Man and I KNOW which one of them has His Name on The Wall.    EVERY episode up to and including last nights has brought the water works to my eyes. There is Something in the Asian mindset that I am unaware of that keeps them going when most other folks would have already thrown in the towel. Was it the 105 howitzers we lost in Korea that the North Vietnamese and the Vietcong man handled the cannon and the rounds by hand to fire upon American and Allied forces? WHY on earth did what started out as a Civil war cost us-America-so cursed dearly? RIDE SAFE.

[Karen]

I remember sitting on the NCO patio at Ft McClellan in the late 60's, & talking to guys that were fortunate enough to come back intact from Vietnam. The single most common complaint were the rules of engagement, which only allowed them to respond to attacks by only the amount they were attacked, and not retaliate for a completion of mission. In other words, repel, but don't pursue. I do not understand how our troops were supposed to be victorious when they were so obviously hamstrung. I hold the politicians responsible for the American lives lost in that conflict. No, I did not experience the combat situation, merely the consequences while participating by playing Taps at Funeral Details. Fighting Communism was the rallying cry at the time. Now I know that it was much more complex than that. I'm still reserving judgement, and probably will be for eternity...

[Willow]

I finally got around to watching an episode last evening.  It was a later episode in which they tied the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King to the Vietnam war.

Maybe if I'd seen other episodes I would have seen it differently.  I saw it as very biased and looking through the lenses of current day liberals rather than the real views of the times.  Were there mistakes made?  Yes.  Were there politicians who used the conflict?  Yes.  Were there large numbers of U.S. servicemen who willingly served their country in the conflict?  Yes.  Was there a very large percentage of the U.S. population supporting the war against the U.S.S.R. puppet?  Yes.  Did the presentation present an unbiased relation of history at the time of the conflict?  No.

[hubcapsc]

I've watched the first two episodes, I think...

Today I had some time to talk with my co-worker, Jerry, he
was the Marine pilot of a F-4 Phantom II aircraft carrier
based bomber. He was there around 66-68 I think and
flew 130 missions. I asked him interesting stuff about
taking off and landing from the carrier, not much political
stuff... he thinks a lot of Kennedy and not so much
of Johnson...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II

He mentioned some stuff about John McCain during the war,
I'm not sure if he knew him or not, but he told me this story
that I didn't know about:

McCain was almost killed on board Forrestal on July 29, 1967.
While the air wing was preparing to launch attacks, a Zuni rocket
from an F-4 Phantom accidentally fired across the carrier's deck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Vietnam_operations

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

I've watched the first two episodes, I think...

Today I had some time to talk with my co-worker, Jerry, he
was the Marine pilot of a F-4 Phantom II aircraft carrier
based bomber. He was there around 66-68 I think and
flew 130 missions. I asked him interesting stuff about
taking off and landing from the carrier, not much political
stuff... he thinks a lot of Kennedy and not so much
of Johnson...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II

He mentioned some stuff about John McCain during the war,
I'm not sure if he knew him or not, but he told me this story
that I didn't know about:

McCain was almost killed on board Forrestal on July 29, 1967.
While the air wing was preparing to launch attacks, a Zuni rocket
from an F-4 Phantom accidentally fired across the carrier's deck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_and_military_career_of_John_McCain#Vietnam_operations

-Mike

And some people have tried to falsely blame McCain for firing the missile.

[Patrick]

Yep, many folks have tried to blame Mr McCain for that accident. 

[old2soon]

What I understand/understood at the time I was with VRC-50 and no longer attached to The Yorktown or CAG 55. But what I'd heard was the Zuni rocket thing was an electrical glitch with that aircraft. Electrical glitches were NOT uncommon. High humidity salt air high temps all play hobb with electrical contacts and electrical systems. Plus the Carriers Are on a War Footing til told to leave station. Seen more than my fair share of electrical glitches and quick fixes and repairs so the bird can make the mission. Everything on an Aircraft Carrier IS All about the Mission. Kinda like ridin a motorcycle-you have to experience flight operations on the flight deck while It's happening-I can Not EVEN begin to describe it. A good place to start for a description would be-pandemonium. RIDE SAFE.

[Patrick]

i really wasn't going to say anything. I've spoken with a 25 year Navy man that has told me he was aboard during that accident. He said it was an electrical switch that was overridden [ kinda like you mentioned] which he said was fairly common.

There are many that do not like Sen McCain. He seemed to be a pretty wild child when he was younger. I can understand that. I happen to think he is a hero the way he conducted himself while in prison. I do not agree with many of his political ideas, but, he does stick to his convictions. I respect him for not caving.

[RP#62]

My father in law was on the Forrestal when it happened.  He was a maintenance chief in McCain's outfit.  He never elaborated on the exact cause he just said that they had a fuel spill that lit off while they were loading bombs.  He had the watch that night and went to get a cup of coffee about the time the 500 pounders started cooking off.  He lost most of the guys in his outfit.  Had he not gone for coffee, he probably would have been killed too.  The Navy called the family and said he was MIA and presumed dead.  They called back the 2 days later and said never mind, they found him.  He was (as was everybody else) involved in the fire fighting efforts.  He told me that being on the ship, they used sea water to fight the fire.  He said a lot of it made its way down to the battery compartment and when it hit the batteries, it generated clouds of chlorine gas that killed a lot of guys.  He told me he saw 18 year old kids picking up 500 lb bombs and throwing them off the flight deck.  Somewhere I've got some video clips he gave me taken aboard ship during the conflagration (I think some of it was the plat film).   He did tell me that the zunis were notorious for uncommanded launches due to stray voltage.   

When the Forrestal came back from Viet Nam it was in Norfolk briefly.  While there, the Navy let us go aboard and look around.  Rather than being flat, the flight deck had big ripples in it like a wave and there were several ragged-edged holes from the hell that occurred on the hangar deck.  Looking at the thickness of the steel, it was unimaginable what it must have took to twist it around like that.


-RP

[The emperor has no clothes]

My father in law was on the Forrestal when it happened.  He was a maintenance chief in McCain's outfit.  He never elaborated on the exact cause he just said that they had a fuel spill that lit off while they were loading bombs.  He had the watch that night and went to get a cup of coffee about the time the 500 pounders started cooking off.  He lost most of the guys in his outfit.  Had he not gone for coffee, he probably would have been killed too.  The Navy called the family and said he was MIA and presumed dead.  They called back the 2 days later and said never mind, they found him.  He was (as was everybody else) involved in the fire fighting efforts.  He told me that being on the ship, they used sea water to fight the fire.  He said a lot of it made its way down to the battery compartment and when it hit the batteries, it generated clouds of chlorine gas that killed a lot of guys.  He told me he saw 18 year old kids picking up 500 lb bombs and throwing them off the flight deck.  Somewhere I've got some video clips he gave me taken aboard ship during the conflagration (I think some of it was the plat film).   He did tell me that the zunis were notorious for uncommanded launches due to stray voltage.   

When the Forrestal came back from Viet Nam it was in Norfolk briefly.  While there, the Navy let us go aboard and look around.  Rather than being flat, the flight deck had big ripples in it like a wave and there were several ragged-edged holes from the hell that occurred on the hangar deck.  Looking at the thickness of the steel, it was unimaginable what it must have took to twist it around like that.


-RP

Very interesting info. I didn't know about the deaths from the chlorine gas. I can not imagine the chaos and Hell it must have been aboard there. I don't know if they still do this, but back in the day every sailor was instructed on safety aboard ships. It was mandatory viewing the Forrestal accident footage. It had and still has to this day a huge impact on the seriousness of fire and explosives on me.

[scooperhsd]

WHen I was in and onboard ship - EVERYBODY (clear up to the CO) is trained as a firefighter. I would imagine embarked Marines are also trained on the Gator Freightors. Air Wing on the CV's too. Firefighting school was the scardest I ever was,  (very realistic) - go into the oil fire burning building trusting that the water fog would do it's job of protecting you ( yes - I was doing nozzleman at the time).

The other thing - EVERY night in port, (and a number of nights underway) - firedrill SOMEWHERE , Somewhen - underway often a mainspace (engineering) .  Inport it was the duty section. and my CDO was the DCA...

Yes the Forrestal fire had a BIG impact on how we trained.

[old2soon]

My best day in boot? The day we spent at fire school cause I just KNEW I was going to the Fleet. And even Before the Forrestal incident we trained often on fire control. You are right about fighting fires aboard ship at sea with sea water. Long as your pumps remain operational you have an Unlimited supply of water. Sea water does really BAD "stuff" to precision machined painted and unpainted metal. Even IF an aircraft was not on fire but it got drenched with sea water NOT sure but thinkin said airframe and engine might be toasted. Saw a 5" rocket detach on landing bounce down the angle deck hit the water and detonate about 15 or 20 feet down. Impressive explosion. A 5" rocket with an H E head-high explosive-Really and Truly effs up a junk or a sampan or a thinned skin vehicle. Used to know the blast radius of a 5" H E head-used to. RIDE SAFE.

[Patrick]

My father in law was on the Forrestal when it happened.  He was a maintenance chief in McCain's outfit.  He never elaborated on the exact cause he just said that they had a fuel spill that lit off while they were loading bombs.  He had the watch that night and went to get a cup of coffee about the time the 500 pounders started cooking off.  He lost most of the guys in his outfit.  Had he not gone for coffee, he probably would have been killed too.  The Navy called the family and said he was MIA and presumed dead.  They called back the 2 days later and said never mind, they found him.  He was (as was everybody else) involved in the fire fighting efforts.  He told me that being on the ship, they used sea water to fight the fire.  He said a lot of it made its way down to the battery compartment and when it hit the batteries, it generated clouds of chlorine gas that killed a lot of guys.  He told me he saw 18 year old kids picking up 500 lb bombs and throwing them off the flight deck.  Somewhere I've got some video clips he gave me taken aboard ship during the conflagration (I think some of it was the plat film).   He did tell me that the zunis were notorious for uncommanded launches due to stray voltage.   

When the Forrestal came back from Viet Nam it was in Norfolk briefly.  While there, the Navy let us go aboard and look around.  Rather than being flat, the flight deck had big ripples in it like a wave and there were several ragged-edged holes from the hell that occurred on the hangar deck.  Looking at the thickness of the steel, it was unimaginable what it must have took to twist it around like that.


-RP

Glad you posted that.

[scooperhsd]

My best day in boot? The day we spent at fire school cause I just KNEW I was going to the Fleet. And even Before the Forrestal incident we trained often on fire control. You are right about fighting fires aboard ship at sea with sea water. Long as your pumps remain operational you have an Unlimited supply of water. Sea water does really BAD "stuff" to precision machined painted and unpainted metal. Even IF an aircraft was not on fire but it got drenched with sea water NOT sure but thinkin said airframe and engine might be toasted. Saw a 5" rocket detach on landing bounce down the angle deck hit the water and detonate about 15 or 20 feet down. Impressive explosion. A 5" rocket with an H E head-high explosive-Really and Truly effs up a junk or a sampan or a thinned skin vehicle. Used to know the blast radius of a 5" H E head-used to. RIDE SAFE.

Having spent a tiny amount of time at the plant rep office of a military plane contractor before going to Pensacola - Naval aircraft get more "salt water hardening" than Air Force  - but you're right - that was mostly for spray etc as well as hardening of the landing gear for cat shots and cat traps for landing. You probably know better than me that a major fire situation - might have to push the aircraft over the side.

[old2soon]

My best day in boot? The day we spent at fire school cause I just KNEW I was going to the Fleet. And even Before the Forrestal incident we trained often on fire control. You are right about fighting fires aboard ship at sea with sea water. Long as your pumps remain operational you have an Unlimited supply of water. Sea water does really BAD "stuff" to precision machined painted and unpainted metal. Even IF an aircraft was not on fire but it got drenched with sea water NOT sure but thinkin said airframe and engine might be toasted. Saw a 5" rocket detach on landing bounce down the angle deck hit the water and detonate about 15 or 20 feet down. Impressive explosion. A 5" rocket with an H E head-high explosive-Really and Truly effs up a junk or a sampan or a thinned skin vehicle. Used to know the blast radius of a 5" H E head-used to. RIDE SAFE.

Having spent a tiny amount of time at the plant rep office of a military plane contractor before going to Pensacola - Naval aircraft get more "salt water hardening" than Air Force  - but you're right - that was mostly for spray etc as well as hardening of the landing gear for cat shots and cat traps for landing. You probably know better than me that a major fire situation - might have to push the aircraft over the side.

           Lets just say I was only surprised the first time as plane captain on a carrier at sea when my bird came back with salt spray stains on the belly. And B T W-plane captain Sounds a bit more grandiose than it actually is. I make cursed SURE fuel tanks and oil tanks are full piss tubes work pilot and operators glass is clean-nudder words I'm the planes butler.  Prior to launch coffee and water jugs full and flight lunches aboard. Talkin 7 to 9 hour missions here. Far as pushing them over the side with Just heavy salt water damage you might be correct. Looking back at my time in Nam I guess I was too young and too busy too be scared at the time. RIDE SAFE.

[signart]

Just watched the latest episode and the war had ended and a POW was released and heading for home. He was asked if there was anything he wanted, he could have anything they told him. He replied "I'd like to have a coke with crushed ice and some chewing gum."
Makes you really appreciate the sacrifice these guys endured just to do their duty for their country, biggest part drafted. Worst thing knowing there would be no winning, and very little support from the public for the war, yet they served bravely. I'm thankful for their service to our country and to all you members who served.
I wonder if he would have anything to say to those small, small SOBees on their knees.

[old2soon]

Just watched the latest episode and the war had ended and a POW was released and heading for home. He was asked if there was anything he wanted, he could have anything they told him. He replied "I'd like to have a coke with crushed ice and some chewing gum."
Makes you really appreciate the sacrifice these guys endured just to do their duty for their country, biggest part drafted. Worst thing knowing there would be no winning, and very little support from the public for the war, yet they served bravely. I'm thankful for their service to our country and to all you members who served.
I wonder if he would have anything to say to those small, small SOBees on their knees.

                  The other thing that hit home he mentioned was saluting the one Star that met that contingent of released P O Ws. Said the saluting was a privilege he was Denied while in captivity. Was NOT a P O W but on the way back to conus when we stopped in Hawaii the first thing I wanted was a glass of ice cold REAL milk. NOT the warm recombined kaka we had on Yankee Station. And once back in Dago a micky Ds chocolate shake. Compared to what the P O Ws were subjected to I was on a cruise ship that happened to launch and recover military aircraft. RIDE SAFE.

[Crazyhorse]

I will rent the dvd one day and form my own opinion. I'm proud of my tour of duty in Nam (69-70). 25th Infantry Division, 1st Brigade 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized), Bobcats. I was 16 years old and yes I do remember being called a baby killer at the airport in California after being discharged. When I turned 18 I joined the USMC and served for 4 years. I love America and consider it a great privilege to live here. I also believe that no one has the right to disrespect our flag or national anthem. There are other ways to protest.

[old2soon]

I will rent the dvd one day and form my own opinion. I'm proud of my tour of duty in Nam (69-70). 25th Infantry Division, 1st Brigade 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized), Bobcats. I was 16 years old and yes I do remember being called a baby killer at the airport in California after being discharged. When I turned 18 I joined the USMC and served for 4 years. I love America and consider it a great privilege to live here. I also believe that no one has the right to disrespect our flag or national anthem. There are other ways to protest.

                 Welcome Home BROTHER. And Thank You for your Service to Our Beautiful Country. I go out every morning and Salute Our FLAG and I thank Almighty GOD for where I live. Lotta folks in my own family have Zero idea of what Military Service entails nor did they want to find out. RIDE SAFE;

[hubcapsc]

The word "salute" reminded me of something else my co-worker Jerry said...

The "go" signal he (pilots) gave right before the shuttle fired was an
otherwise illegal "lefthanded" salute... 2 seconds later they were doing
a hundred and something miles an hour and weren't on the boat
anymore  ... seven Gs...

We talked about the centrifuges they were put in during training to weed-out
people who would be likely to black out on launch... with their head in the center
of the centrifuge, if all their blood ran to their feet, they were out. with their feet
in the center, if all their blood ran to their head ("red head" he called it), they
were out...

-Mike

[old2soon]

The word "salute" reminded me of something else my co-worker Jerry said...

The "go" signal he (pilots) gave right before the shuttle fired was an
otherwise illegal "lefthanded" salute... 2 seconds later they were doing
a hundred and something miles an hour and weren't on the boat
anymore  ... seven Gs...

We talked about the centrifuges they were put in during training to weed-out
people who would be likely to black out on launch... with their head in the center
of the centrifuge, if all their blood ran to their feet, they were out. with their feet
in the center, if all their blood ran to their head ("red head" he called it), they
were out...

-Mike

               Launches WERE a kick in da ass.  Recovery-arrested landing-after 6 or 8 hours sitting in roughly the same position-parachutes are only soft when out of the pack-was a kick in da chest and if you had the crotch straps Wrong you could crush or otherwise do serious damage to the boys.  Upon launch you PRAYED the cat officer and the others involved had your launch weight right and dialed in properly. Yorktown had hydraulic cats. I was drawing combat pay and half a set of flight skins-flying pay-hellz bellz I'd done er fer free!  Course I ain't tween 19 and 23 no mo either!  RIDE SAFE.

[Oldfishguy]

So far, this appears to be an excellent series; one needs to withhold final judgement till the end though.

What I am really finding interesting is the various angles they are recording from.  Most instances we hear and see a snapshot from just one viewpoint.  Just a few years back the viewpoint of the Vietnamese soldier was not possible.  And then the producers dig into the politics a bit too; interesting no doubt.

A good piece of history told in first person in many regards, highly unusual that is being captured.

David 
Sgt US Army 1980-83

My first thoughts were spot on.

Absolutely brutal to watch; worth every minute though.  Those that lived it first hand will struggle with it in many ways.  The rest of us will have a better insight.

This series will be around forever and the impact it will have will be far reaching.

David

[baldo]

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/music/a12499159/the-vietnam-war-ken-burns-the-beatles/

[Jersey mike]

Well since I was born in '65 I was too young to know what was going on. Over the years I "learned" tidbits here and there regarding the war and to this day really don't have "the facts" to argue right or wrong. However I was and still am ashmed of how our returning Vets were treated. I'm sad of how POW's were treated.

This documentary helped me understand some, but to be honest I was only able to see the first 4 episodes in a row, I missed 5&6 watched 7&8 missed 9 and only caught the middle to end of 10.

As in all documentaries there is a slant, so I won't comment on that but I had heard before of the corruption of the South's gov't.

All I can say is I wish we could get a "do over" on this war, I believe we could have done better on all  sides.

here is a current article on the Series;
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/29/veterans-angry-disappointed-following-pbs-vietnam-war-documentary/

[Jess from VA]

A bit of a read (multiple pages), but other points of view on another forum (M14).

http://m14forum.com/hollywood/368161-pbs-series-vietnam-war-2.html