Dems admit ethanol mandate failed

[98valk]

I've posted this before.
the basic gasoline today minus ethanol is junk and will decompose in 4-6wks. it is low octane, low quality gasoline and engines will barely run on it. similar to gasoline found in third world counties. Hence the savior 10% Ethanol, which raises the octane to an acceptable level. there is much written that the ethanol plants are owned run by the big oil companies.  so the oil companies save cost by producing a low quality gasoline but boost it with eth. they win on both ends. there are EPA studies that show the eth actually causes extreme pollution on certain levels some very harmful. EPA and their additvies need to be shut down. I will leave it at that.

[Robert]

While many seem not to have had problems I have seen the damage and claims from Ethanol. In carbs in the gas without ethanol yes you could get a sticky substance that would cause problems. But with ethanol its a green deposit and its not easily if impossible to remove unlike the old gas that sometimes even carb cleaner would do the job in removing the deposit. This also doesn't consider the station tanks that have water in them most of the time and depending on the station and the amount of ethanol in the gas you could get a tank with water or a good percentage of this water that is in the bottom of the tanks,since ethanol absorbs water. If you have an electric fuel pump or fiberglass fuel tanks I have seen it stop the pump. Your car is running ok then you shut it off the water and ethanol cause the pump to corrode and the pump stops working. In fiberglass tanks ethanol dissolves the fiberglass and of course its a major cost in putting new tanks in the boat.

Im glad that many like myself have not had to much problem with ethanol but why when there is no benefit and an added negative why would anyone endorse it. I will mention one problem that no one has really mentioned also. The world price of food and the hardest hit are the poorest countries.

[Jess from VA]

This post reminds me.  If you ride in to gas up, and a tanker is filling the tanks (or just got done filling them), move on.

The water that sits on the bottom of these tanks is all mixed up with the new gas, until it settles back down again. 

[scooperhsd]

This post reminds me.  If you ride in to gas up, and a tanker is filling the tanks (or just got done filling them), move on.

The water that sits on the bottom of these tanks is all mixed up with the new gas, until it settles back down again. 

Absolutely. And not just gas either - if you drive diesel engined vehicles , they are even more sensitive to this than gas engined vehicles.

[MP]

Before ethanol ever existed, owners if small engines had to drain for winter, or use a stabile like product, or we risked having the carb gum up.
There was no alcohol in that fuel.
What caused them to gum up?
The varnishes in gasoline. Not alcohol.
Does alcohol make it worse?
Maybe. It might.
But what I see happening, is EVERY case of this blamed on the alcohol.
Some might well be.
However, the EXACT SAME PROBLEM EXISTED BEFORE alcohol was added.

Not true, the old gas didn't start going bad in the can in a week or two. We only had to use Stabil or similar when storing something for the season, not in every frakin' 5 gallon gas can used to fill small engines. I can bore some of the folks here with details of my personal experience with the gas in my area between Chicago & Milwaukee, but why bother. My house has never been hit by a tornado, so I don't believe they're really a problem worth whining about.

I have vehicles I don't start for eight months on the farm. No problem. No stabil.
I store ethanol in 1000 gallon tank over the winter. No problem. No stabil.
And you have problem in a week?
Our local coop has been supplying it since it first came out decades ago. I can't remember a single one of my farming neighbors complaining about it. Not one.
I wonder how many millions of gallons that would be?
Not one complaint.

[¿spoom]

Before ethanol ever existed, owners if small engines had to drain for winter, or use a stabile like product, or we risked having the carb gum up.
There was no alcohol in that fuel.
What caused them to gum up?
The varnishes in gasoline. Not alcohol.
Does alcohol make it worse?
Maybe. It might.
But what I see happening, is EVERY case of this blamed on the alcohol.
Some might well be.
However, the EXACT SAME PROBLEM EXISTED BEFORE alcohol was added.

Not true, the old gas didn't start going bad in the can in a week or two. We only had to use Stabil or similar when storing something for the season, not in every frakin' 5 gallon gas can used to fill small engines. I can bore some of the folks here with details of my personal experience with the gas in my area between Chicago & Milwaukee, but why bother. My house has never been hit by a tornado, so I don't believe they're really a problem worth whining about.

I have vehicles I don't start for eight months on the farm. No problem. No stabil.
I store ethanol in 1000 gallon tank over the winter. No problem. No stabil.
And you have problem in a week?
Our local coop has been supplying it since it first came out decades ago. I can't remember a single one of my farming neighbors complaining about it. Not one.
I wonder how many millions of gallons that would be?
Not one complaint.

Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. None of my small gasoline engines have 1000 gallon tanks 

[Jess from VA]

I was thinking the same thing (tank size).  But don't know the science.

In studying different generators (gasoline, propane, natural gas), propane looked very good and clean (and no corn gas or carburetor problem at all), but I discovered the small tanks I would use freeze up and won't reliably burn in winter (stored out in my sheds) (when I will likely need a generator).  Now the big propane tanks don't have that problem, but I didn't want a giant propane tank on my third acre of suburbia.  And no way in hell I'm keeping 20 tanks of propane in my utility room (with my furnace, electrical, water heater, etc).  So propane was out. (The utility room is right under my bed room, and I had dreams of being blown up and out through my roof)

I just want corn out of gas for good.  It's a govt/private boondoggle.  It pollutes worse than gas. It's hard on small engines.  And we are the greatest nation, about to be the biggest oil producer, so lets have first world gasoline.

I like farmers (at least family if not corporate agro).  If we have to help out family farms, I'm willing to do so, but do it some other way than using 10% corn in our gas.  Any other way.

[MP]

Before ethanol ever existed, owners if small engines had to drain for winter, or use a stabile like product, or we risked having the carb gum up.
There was no alcohol in that fuel.
What caused them to gum up?
The varnishes in gasoline. Not alcohol.
Does alcohol make it worse?
Maybe. It might.
But what I see happening, is EVERY case of this blamed on the alcohol.
Some might well be.
However, the EXACT SAME PROBLEM EXISTED BEFORE alcohol was added.

Not true, the old gas didn't start going bad in the can in a week or two. We only had to use Stabil or similar when storing something for the season, not in every frakin' 5 gallon gas can used to fill small engines. I can bore some of the folks here with details of my personal experience with the gas in my area between Chicago & Milwaukee, but why bother. My house has never been hit by a tornado, so I don't believe they're really a problem worth whining about.

I have vehicles I don't start for eight months on the farm. No problem. No stabil.
I store ethanol in 1000 gallon tank over the winter. No problem. No stabil.
And you have problem in a week?
Our local coop has been supplying it since it first came out decades ago. I can't remember a single one of my farming neighbors complaining about it. Not one.
I wonder how many millions of gallons that would be?
Not one complaint.

Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. None of my small gasoline engines have 1000 gallon tanks 

It's in all the small engines too. Point being, all our gas use for decades is ethanol, with nobody having problems.

[¿spoom]

Before ethanol ever existed, owners if small engines had to drain for winter, or use a stabile like product, or we risked having the carb gum up.
There was no alcohol in that fuel.
What caused them to gum up?
The varnishes in gasoline. Not alcohol.
Does alcohol make it worse?
Maybe. It might.
But what I see happening, is EVERY case of this blamed on the alcohol.
Some might well be.
However, the EXACT SAME PROBLEM EXISTED BEFORE alcohol was added.

Not true, the old gas didn't start going bad in the can in a week or two. We only had to use Stabil or similar when storing something for the season, not in every frakin' 5 gallon gas can used to fill small engines. I can bore some of the folks here with details of my personal experience with the gas in my area between Chicago & Milwaukee, but why bother. My house has never been hit by a tornado, so I don't believe they're really a problem worth whining about.

I have vehicles I don't start for eight months on the farm. No problem. No stabil.
I store ethanol in 1000 gallon tank over the winter. No problem. No stabil.
And you have problem in a week?
Our local coop has been supplying it since it first came out decades ago. I can't remember a single one of my farming neighbors complaining about it. Not one.
I wonder how many millions of gallons that would be?
Not one complaint.

Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. None of my small gasoline engines have 1000 gallon tanks 

It's in all the small engines too. Point being, all our gas use for decades is ethanol, with nobody having problems.

I'm happy for you, and sad whatever they sell here doesn't share that love. I ended up getting an electric chainsaw and corded & cordless leaf blowers, and spending a hour or so last fall on a gas sidewalk edger that I forgot to drain & run out after a Spring use. Apparently I figured I'd use it at least once in between. It's gotten to the point where if a tree falls on somebody's house I may call them a liar because my roof is fine.

[Robert]

Gas MAY BE UP TO 10% ethanol that doesn't mean in your area or for your need its got ethanol in it nor does it say the percentage. Gas is also blended for the use and that may be the difference. There has been an issue with the amount of ethanol they actually produce to be added to fuel supply and sometimes supply did not meet demand. If ethanol is so good why does almost every mfg have labels attached to their product stating do not use over a certain percentage of ethanol or damage may occur?

MP you must work for the government since I have dealt with ethanol related problems quite a bit and have seen many complaints about it. I would also ask with a 1000 gallon tank you have no water in the bottom and how do you monitor it?

Seasonal storage with E10 fuel is another likely time for problems. During storage, fuel will tend to oxidize; it will become “sour”, and may absorb water from condensation. Water-holding capacity of E10 fuel is reduced with lower temperatures, so phase separation is more likely with winter temperatures. E10 can hold approximately 0.5% water at 60°F (.64 ounces in a gallon, or 12 ounces of water in a 20-gallon gas tank), but can only hold about 0.35% water at 20°F (.45 ounces in a gallon).

[Jess from VA]

I had forgotten all about the regional/seasonal blending they all do, all over the country.

All those different blending agents used could absolutely affect the tendency of ethanol to attract and hold water.

[northernvalk]

Not sure about the laws in your country....but here, if the pump states 87 octane, I am pretty sure it's 87 octane....

[Wizzard]

Well however you feel, science or whatever. Brazil has been running ethanol for 20 years. In fact they have upped the percentage of alcohol and are one of the worlds largest ethanol producers. I would think if there were large scale problems we would hear about it. And they also claim it reduces emissions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

They even have some that run on 100% alcohol 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicles_in_Brazil

[Willow]

Not sure about the laws in your country....but here, if the pump states 87 octane, I am pretty sure it's 87 octane....

The tags on the pumps in our country generally read, "up to xx%".

[¿spoom]

Well however you feel, science or whatever. Brazil has been running ethanol for 20 years. In fact they have upped the percentage of alcohol and are one of the worlds largest ethanol producers. I would think if there were large scale problems we would hear about it. And they also claim it reduces emissions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

They even have some that run on 100% alcohol 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicles_in_Brazil

All I know about Brazil's is that it's made from grass and that I've never used it. If I had used whatever they're running in Brazil, perhaps my personal experiences would be different.

[Wizzard]

Well however you feel, science or whatever. Brazil has been running ethanol for 20 years. In fact they have upped the percentage of alcohol and are one of the worlds largest ethanol producers. I would think if there were large scale problems we would hear about it. And they also claim it reduces emissions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

They even have some that run on 100% alcohol 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicles_in_Brazil

All I know about Brazil's is that it's made from grass and that I've never used it. If I had used whatever they're running in Brazil, perhaps my personal experiences would be different.

Corn is in that "grass" family of plants

[Wizzard]

Corn is in that "grass" family of plants Only difference between corn alcohol and sugar cane or grass alcohol is that you get way better production per acre from cane and some grass based plants

[MP]

Before ethanol ever existed, owners if small engines had to drain for winter, or use a stabile like product, or we risked having the carb gum up.
There was no alcohol in that fuel.
What caused them to gum up?
The varnishes in gasoline. Not alcohol.
Does alcohol make it worse?
Maybe. It might.
But what I see happening, is EVERY case of this blamed on the alcohol.
Some might well be.
However, the EXACT SAME PROBLEM EXISTED BEFORE alcohol was added.

Not true, the old gas didn't start going bad in the can in a week or two. We only had to use Stabil or similar when storing something for the season, not in every frakin' 5 gallon gas can used to fill small engines. I can bore some of the folks here with details of my personal experience with the gas in my area between Chicago & Milwaukee, but why bother. My house has never been hit by a tornado, so I don't believe they're really a problem worth whining about.

I have vehicles I don't start for eight months on the farm. No problem. No stabil.
I store ethanol in 1000 gallon tank over the winter. No problem. No stabil.
And you have problem in a week?
Our local coop has been supplying it since it first came out decades ago. I can't remember a single one of my farming neighbors complaining about it. Not one.
I wonder how many millions of gallons that would be?
Not one complaint.

Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. None of my small gasoline engines have 1000 gallon tanks 

It's in all the small engines too. Point being, all our gas use for decades is ethanol, with nobody having problems.

I'm happy for you, and sad whatever they sell here doesn't share that love. I ended up getting an electric chainsaw and corded & cordless leaf blowers, and spending a hour or so last fall on a gas sidewalk edger that I forgot to drain & run out after a Spring use. Apparently I figured I'd use it at least once in between. It's gotten to the point where if a tree falls on somebody's house I may call them a liar because my roof is fine.

I NEVER called you a liar. I am sure your experiences are true. So are mine.
I wish I knew why the variance all over.
Some have problems.
Others don't.
Regional differences? Climate?
Does seem, on here, that those of us without problems tend to live in a drier climate.

[MP]

And, we don't grow much corn here! Too dry.

[¿spoom]

Not sure about the laws in your country....but here, if the pump states 87 octane, I am pretty sure it's 87 octane....

True, but we're talking about the % of alcohol in the gas, not the octane rating. You can have 85 octane in pretty much any alcohol ratio mix. Regarding % of alcohol, all the pump labels show is the maximum alcohol % amount being dispensed. A nozzle labeled max 10% might not have any alcohol, but by labeling it 10% they have the option of selling up to 10% without re-labeling the pump. In the US we have many areas (like mine) where the EPA has mandated certain minimum % of additives/blends for supposed pollution/emission reasons, so it's illegal to sell non-alcohol motor fuel where I live. Many places 50-100 miles away are outside my "EPA area" and sell alcohol free gas. Most places are premium "hi-octane" only for non-alcohol, and up to 10% for regular and mid-grade gas, because it's easier to get. That's a hassle because most small engine applications like lawn mowers come with recommendations to NOT run premium fuel. That gives me a choice for the most part of using regular w/alcohol or premium alcohol-free when I fill a 5-gallon can for my small-engine stuff like the snowblower, edger, mower, and previously a chain saw and leaf blower that now need to have their carbs cleaned or scrapped. Fortunately there's at least one place with mid-grade no-alcohol (100 miles away) that I go by for other reasons anyway, so I fill my can up there (with Stabil added). The Stabil is like another tax for folks like me to pony up or get punished.    

EDIT, to be honest, I don't know WHAT the heck we are running. When they first decided some areas needed to burn only "reformulated", "oxygenated" and possibly low-calorie gasoline, there were at least 3 different main additives that could be used. One was the nasty smelling MBTE mix, which thankfully was taken off the market because it was kinda sneaky and kept running around in the ground water after escaping underground tanks for reasons I forget. Maybe the PVC plastic or molasses lobby is strong in my area   

[¿spoom]

 "I NEVER called you a liar. I am sure your experiences are true. So are mine.
I wish I knew why the variance all over.
Some have problems.
Others don't.
Regional differences? Climate?
Does seem, on here, that those of us without problems tend to live in a drier climate."
[/quote]


No sir, and I do apologize if I came off that way. This thread in general seems to have an undercurrent that anyone who claims to have been damaged or had hassles with gasohol doesn't know what they're talking about. It gets to where I feel like I'm being told I don't have a Black '97 Std.even though it's right in the garage. Whether I feel I'm being called a liar when someone says, "no you don't" or if there's a better word, I don't know. I do know I've had to use various tools including wire drills & pin vise to clear the hard, plastic-like green stuff out of fuel passages and had to toss one el-cheapo Briggs plastic carb from a lawn mower because it could be brought back to usable. Back when so many of us original Valk owners had the front OEM Dunlops going out of round at low miles (with proper inflation at all times), at least there weren't "experts" telling us maybe it was all in our heads after we had to replace them, often with over half the tread left, simply because THEY didn't have that on their bike.

[Alpha Dog]

And, we don't grow much corn here! Too dry.

I will bet you grow what Harold Robinson of Minot, ND use to tell me was the greatest wheat on earth.  Durham wheat.  He owned 18,000 acres of it.   Wonder if any alcohol can be squeezed out of wheat?

[¿spoom]

And, we don't grow much corn here! Too dry.

I will bet you grow what Harold Robinson of Minot, ND use to tell me was the greatest wheat on earth.  Durham wheat.  He owned 18,000 acres of it.   Wonder if any alcohol can be squeezed out of wheat?

Yum, they make great pasta with that!

[3fan4life]

And, we don't grow much corn here! Too dry.

For some reason I've always thought that North Dakota was a major corn producer.

So, I thought that you might be a little tongue and cheek here.

Turns out North Dakota doesn't grow as much corn as I thought:

http://beef2live.com/story-states-produce-corn-0-107129

[MarkT]

I can say that I personally have not had problems caused by ethanol that I know of.  However, Colorado is "semi-arid", almost desert climate and I use Seafoam and Berryman's frequently to prevent the problems.  Put the date on my gas cans and cycle it through my unfortunate "Exploder" when it gets close to a year - and then it was stored with Seafoam in it.  And lately since the Murphy's station opened 3 miles away nearly all my fuel is pure gas mid-grade - which costs more than regular grade.  Still stored with Seafoam.  Ethanol is still a problem in my book as they are supporting the HUGE fuel economy with the much smaller food economy; corn is the basis of swine, beef and I think, poultry feed - causing our food prices to shoot up. Fields are planted with corn as it's more profitable with subsidies and ethanol demand than other crops like wheat and beans, causing them all to be in shorter supply and more expensive.  All thanks to the corn lobby, to line the pockets of some very wealthy (now) ag operations at the expense of the rest of us.  Never mind the small-engine damage of most of us - or having to prevent that with additives and careful cycled fuel storage.  And now we have the momentum of ethanol operations - expensive to set up and to now, shut down.