The Democrats Will Never Confiscate Your Guns. Instead, You’ll Hand them Over.

[98valk]

interesting perspective.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/08/31/democrats-will-never-confiscate-guns-instead-youll-hand/

[solo1]

Sounds plausible. However, I wonder if the Armed forces would step in.  Unlawful order? I wonder if the governors would prevent the Feds from taking over the states National Guard.  I wonder if the Elected sheriffs would not go along with it or the police in smaller towns in the red states.

I better stop wondering before this thread gets locked.

[Pete]

Some will but many will not.

The ones to worry about are the ones who will not.

Forced confiscation is a really bad road to start down, there are a lot of "Unintended Consequences".

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sounds plausible. However, I wonder if the Armed forces would step in.  Unlawful order? I wonder if the governors would prevent the Feds from taking over the states National Guard.  I wonder if the Elected sheriffs would not go along with it or the police in smaller towns in the red states.

I better stop wondering before this thread gets locked.

Plausible ? You seriously think the government is going to freeze your assets and take your children in order to coerce you to give up your guns ? The 2nd Amendment is here to stay. The government is not going to take your guns. Or your kids. It’s this kind of talk that makes others really wonder about NRA members. No citizen of any worth is going to let the govt. do these things to them.

[Pete]

Sounds plausible. However, I wonder if the Armed forces would step in.  Unlawful order? I wonder if the governors would prevent the Feds from taking over the states National Guard.  I wonder if the Elected sheriffs would not go along with it or the police in smaller towns in the red states.

I better stop wondering before this thread gets locked.

Plausible ? You seriously think the government is going to freeze your assets and take your children in order to coerce you to give up your guns ? The 2nd Amendment is here to stay. The government is not going to take your guns. Or your kids. It’s this kind of talk that makes others really wonder about NRA members. No citizen of any worth is going to let the govt. do these things to them.

Well lets see I am not an NRA member, I do not have any assets or kids does that mean I am safe from everything?   

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sounds plausible. However, I wonder if the Armed forces would step in.  Unlawful order? I wonder if the governors would prevent the Feds from taking over the states National Guard.  I wonder if the Elected sheriffs would not go along with it or the police in smaller towns in the red states.

I better stop wondering before this thread gets locked.

Plausible ? You seriously think the government is going to freeze your assets and take your children in order to coerce you to give up your guns ? The 2nd Amendment is here to stay. The government is not going to take your guns. Or your kids. It’s this kind of talk that makes others really wonder about NRA members. No citizen of any worth is going to let the govt. do these things to them.

Well lets see I am not an NRA member, I do not have any assets or kids does that mean I am safe from everything?

I don’t know. I guess you’d need to consult CA about that.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Sounds plausible. However, I wonder if the Armed forces would step in.  Unlawful order? I wonder if the governors would prevent the Feds from taking over the states National Guard.  I wonder if the Elected sheriffs would not go along with it or the police in smaller towns in the red states.

I better stop wondering before this thread gets locked.

Plausible ? You seriously think the government is going to freeze your assets and take your children in order to coerce you to give up your guns ? The 2nd Amendment is here to stay. The government is not going to take your guns. Or your kids. It’s this kind of talk that makes others really wonder about NRA members. No citizen of any worth is going to let the govt. do these things to them.

This is not an argument on my part, so hear me out.
Not long ago, one would have never thought the government could take property without due process.  In a nutshell, though, that is exactly what Asset Forfeiture laws do.  The way I understand it that government can seize property without a trial, they only need to show it was used for illegal purposes.
For example, if you have a huge plot of land, so large that you hardly see the other side of it (let's say it's wooded).  In theory, someone could set up a meth operation in a remote part of it, and since the property was used for illegal purposes, the government can seize the property.  Without charges being filed against the owner of the property, who may have not known anything was going on.
I hope I am wrong in that interpretation. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sounds plausible. However, I wonder if the Armed forces would step in.  Unlawful order? I wonder if the governors would prevent the Feds from taking over the states National Guard.  I wonder if the Elected sheriffs would not go along with it or the police in smaller towns in the red states.

I better stop wondering before this thread gets locked.

Plausible ? You seriously think the government is going to freeze your assets and take your children in order to coerce you to give up your guns ? The 2nd Amendment is here to stay. The government is not going to take your guns. Or your kids. It’s this kind of talk that makes others really wonder about NRA members. No citizen of any worth is going to let the govt. do these things to them.

This is not an argument on my part, so hear me out.
Not long ago, one would have never thought the government could take property without due process.  In a nutshell, though, that is exactly what Asset Forfeiture laws do.  The way I understand it that government can seize property without a trial, they only need to show it was used for illegal purposes.
For example, if you have a huge plot of land, so large that you hardly see the other side of it (let's say it's wooded).  In theory, someone could set up a meth operation in a remote part of it, and since the property was used for illegal purposes, the government can seize the property.  Without charges being filed against the owner of the property, who may have not known anything was going on.
I hope I am wrong in that interpretation. 

I believe you are. In order for the example you gave, the owners would have to have knowledge of or be complicit in it. The point I was trying to make is, NO good citizen is going to give up ther guns, their money, their children. To think otherwise is just foolishness.

[Skinhead]

Sounds plausible. However, I wonder if the Armed forces would step in.  Unlawful order? I wonder if the governors would prevent the Feds from taking over the states National Guard.  I wonder if the Elected sheriffs would not go along with it or the police in smaller towns in the red states.

I better stop wondering before this thread gets locked.

Plausible ? You seriously think the government is going to freeze your assets and take your children in order to coerce you to give up your guns ? The 2nd Amendment is here to stay. The government is not going to take your guns. Or your kids. It’s this kind of talk that makes others really wonder about NRA members. No citizen of any worth is going to let the govt. do these things to them.

When I hear people calling law abiding people and groups like the NRA  and it's members baby killers, and snot nosed punks too young to vote say They are going to dictate to our government how things are going to be from now on.  How they are going to Ban our war machines.  And then see adults who SHOULD KNOW BETTER, praising their antisocial behavior.  Sorry, I don't believe you either.  I doubt they will be successful, but it won't be for lack of trying , no matter how much you dismiss it.

[98valk]

Sounds plausible. However, I wonder if the Armed forces would step in.  Unlawful order? I wonder if the governors would prevent the Feds from taking over the states National Guard.  I wonder if the Elected sheriffs would not go along with it or the police in smaller towns in the red states.

I better stop wondering before this thread gets locked.

Plausible ? You seriously think the government is going to freeze your assets and take your children in order to coerce you to give up your guns ? The 2nd Amendment is here to stay. The government is not going to take your guns. Or your kids. It’s this kind of talk that makes others really wonder about NRA members. No citizen of any worth is going to let the govt. do these things to them.

Well lets see I am not an NRA member, I do not have any assets or kids does that mean I am safe from everything?

I don’t know. I guess you’d need to consult CA about that.

I did not write the article. did u completely read it?
in NJ for yrs zero ID was required to buy ammo. Then about 17 yrs ago, one had to present your driver's license, the seller wrote everything down in a log book, to buy any ammo that could also be used in a handgun. Now one must process a NJ Firearms ID card, same ID card needed to buy a rifle or shotgun to buy any previously mentioned ammo. inch by inch, the nails are hammered down.
said FID card needed first then another permit to buy a handgun.  if one got sleeping pills from their doctor due to hard time sleeping due to stress, that person is considered mental illness and prevented from getting a FID. every time one moves residence, that existing FID becomes invalid and person is required to go through the process all over again including fees to get a new FID.

now in today's news they are pushing for national ID to buy any ammo.

[Jess from VA]

The author has some points.

But IMHO he does not have a very good handle on the extent to which large numbers of citizens would at some point simply fail to obey tyrant overlords.  And the raw numbers of those citizens.  And the kind of damage and constitutional crises that could result from those citizens (no matter how many are martyred).

The reference to the book Unintended Consequences is very appropriate.  It lays out the essential Oplan for a general uprising that would be very effective, and destructive.

Only if the G was through some miracle able to abolish/repeal the 2d amendment itself would law abiding citizens possibly/probably tip to a progressive confiscation policy.  I don't see repeal happening (in my lifetime anyway).

[Serk]

Reading about the citizens of Denver giving their government a collective "FU!" gives me hope... The tyrannical city government retroactively banned "bump stocks" and ordered all in possession of one to turn 'em in.

Total turned in: Zero.

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/17/no-bump-stocks-turned-in-denver-police/

[solo1]

Meathead, be careful about throwing descriptions like 'foolishness' out  there.

I didn't think it was plausible to find out that OBAMA had issued executive orders concerning Social Security recipients and also veterans.  In  both cases his orders said that any citizen or veteran who was determined by bureaucrats to be unable to handle their own finances, must be put on the FBI's list of ones who could not buy guns.   The key word was Bureaucrats.

Trump has rescinded both orders.  The orders did carry the weight of law at the time with no appeals.

So maybe the word plausible was too strong but I don't trust the Feds.

[Robert]

Some on this board are pretty unaware since property, money and gun confiscation has and is already going on. The only foolish thing is not to know its already happening.

The Justice Department announced a new federal policy Wednesday to help state and local police take cash and property from people suspected of a crime, even without a criminal charge, reversing an Obama administration rule prompted by past abuse by police.

“It’s been complete hell”: how police used a traffic stop to take $91,800 from an innocent man
The money was supposed to go toward buying a legendary music studio. Now his dreams are on hold.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/12/1/16686014/phillip-parhamovich-civil-forfeiture

Justice Clarence Thomas wrote in March:

These forfeiture operations frequently target the poor and other groups least able to defend their interests in forfeiture proceedings. … They are more likely to use cash than alternative forms of payment, like credit cards, which may be less susceptible to forfeiture. And they are more likely to suffer in their daily lives while they litigate for the return of a critical item of property, such as a car or a home.

In Alabama, law enforcement agencies in nine counties seized more than $2 million in cash using civil asset forfeiture procedures last year, an SPLC investigation found.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina#Confiscation_of_civilian_firearms
Controversy arose over a September 8 city-wide order by New Orleans Police Superintendent Eddie Compass to local police, U.S. Army National Guard soldiers, and Deputy U.S. Marshals to confiscate all civilian-held firearms. "No one will be able to be armed," Compass said. "Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns." Seizures were carried out without warrant, and in some cases with excessive force; one instance captured on film involved 58‑year‑old New Orleans resident Patricia Konie. Konie stayed behind, in her well provisioned home, and had an old revolver for protection. A group of police entered the house, and when she refused to surrender her revolver, she was tackled and it was removed by force. Konie's shoulder was fractured, and she was taken into police custody for failing to surrender her firearm

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

Reading about the citizens of Denver giving their government a collective "FU!" gives me hope... The tyrannical city government retroactively banned "bump stocks" and ordered all in possession of one to turn 'em in.

Total turned in: Zero.

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/17/no-bump-stocks-turned-in-denver-police/

Massachusetts banned bump stocks as well, and issued a mandatory turn-in order with no compensation. As far as I know, only two people turned in bump stocks here in MA. If one were to be caught with one, they would now be arrested. Illegal seizure with no compensation, turning law abiding citizens into criminals with the stroke of a pen. Don't think for a second that they wouldn't do it with firearms in general, if they had the stones to try it. Too many gun owners are afraid to be turned into criminals, since they've tried to live right their whole lives. This is more plausible than I'd like to think it is.

[Robert]

Just one other thing since we are at some point going to be a cashless society since the internet of things is being designed, built and used to control every aspect of every persons life. What would happen if having a chip or a card that you use to buy things and the Police come to your door and say give up your weapons or we will cut you off and you say, no. The Police leave you go to the store to buy something and no money the card is off, how long do you think it will be till you give up the guns?   

Another thing is if the president declares a state of emergency from any disaster with the laws on the books today it will suspend the constitution. So what chance do you think you would have in this type of environment?

 

[Gavin_Sons]

Just one other thing since we are at some point going to be a cashless society since the internet of things is being designed, built and used to control every aspect of every persons life. What would happen if having a chip or a card that you use to buy things and the Police come to your door and say give up your weapons or we will cut you off and you say, no. The Police leave you go to the store to buy something and no money the card is off, how long do you think it will be till you give up the guns?

 

I'll give them up when they kill me. I refuse to live in a dictatorship and they can go pound sand along with everyone that supports them. The way I see my life ending in such a circumstance is "guns a blazing". 

[Serk]

Just one other thing since we are at some point going to be a cashless society since the internet of things is being designed, built and used to control every aspect of every persons life. What would happen if having a chip or a card that you use to buy things and the Police come to your door and say give up your weapons or we will cut you off and you say, no. The Police leave you go to the store to buy something and no money the card is off, how long do you think it will be till you give up the guns?

 

So, like some kind of mark that people would have to have, and without it they would not be able to buy or sell?

Hmmm... where have I heard of this before?  

[Jess from VA]

Reading about the citizens of Denver giving their government a collective "FU!" gives me hope... The tyrannical city government retroactively banned "bump stocks" and ordered all in possession of one to turn 'em in.

Total turned in: Zero.

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/17/no-bump-stocks-turned-in-denver-police/

Massachusetts banned bump stocks as well, and issued a mandatory turn-in order with no compensation. As far as I know, only two people turned in bump stocks here in MA. If one were to be caught with one, they would now be arrested. Illegal seizure with no compensation, turning law abiding citizens into criminals with the stroke of a pen. Don't think for a second that they wouldn't do it with firearms in general, if they had the stones to try it. Too many gun owners are afraid to be turned into criminals, since they've tried to live right their whole lives. This is more plausible than I'd like to think it is.

So a few turn them in and most don't.   Hmmmm

Well the big question is when (or if) it is decided to go out and take them by force, and in what numbers, and with no-knock or knock warrants, and with what force?  Prosecutors aren't going to like writing these warrants, judges aren't going to like signing these warrants,  PD's aren't going to like enforcing these orders, and the press will be there salivating and orgasming, and getting it all on video.
Many would not resist, but some will.  

This would not be the issue I would prefer standing on.  

Aren't they still waiting for people to turn things in in some counties in NY (or CT)?

What I want to see, is the police telling the city counsel to go get them themselves if they want them that bad.  They'll even loan them some kevlar, helmets and a few shotguns.  Have fun at the pointy end of the stick boys (and girls).        

[Robert]

So, like some kind of mark that people would have to have, and without it they would not be able to buy or sell?

Hmmm... where have I heard of this before? 

Exactly, We laughed years ago at this idea that we would be cashless or that the government would have the ability to control spending or even any aspect of our lives. But in 10 years we have had to see the technology advance enough to make this all possible and probable.

Do you remember when people were shocked when you would tell them the Federal Reserve is privately owned. That is also another great question in this discussion, if the government is all beneficial why doesn't it remove the Federal Reserve since its the good will of the US citizens and not anything else that backs the dollar. Yet we pay tremendous interest to the Reserve for printing money. Why would a good, beneficial and caring government let its people be slaves?

Aaron Russo RFID Human Implant Chip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGcatieMvfk

[98valk]

So, like some kind of mark that people would have to have, and without it they would not be able to buy or sell?

Hmmm... where have I heard of this before? 

Exactly, We laughed years ago at this idea that we would be cashless or that the government would have the ability to control spending or even any aspect of our lives. But in 10 years we have had to see the technology advance enough to make this all possible and probable.

Do you remember when people were shocked when you would tell them the Federal Reserve is privately owned. That is also another great question in this discussion, if the government is all beneficial why doesn't it remove the Federal Reserve since its the good will of the US citizens and not anything else that backs the dollar. Yet we pay tremendous interest to the Reserve for printing money. Why would a good, beneficial and caring government let its people be slaves?

Blockchain technology, latest articles esp you-tube indicate this will allow the cashless society to come about.

[Robert]

Blockchain technology, latest articles esp you-tube indicate this will allow the cashless society to come about.

I had seen a bit of information on block chain and then you mentioned it and so I did some research on it. I have a good idea of it but the more I research Bitcoin and Blockchain its becoming clearer it was designed for a purpose more than an alternate way of paying for things.

I was reading an article on how Bitcoin may affect your life and their slant was that there are very few graphics cards on the market these days. They are being bought up by the Bitcoin miners.

[Oss]

The government already has too much power

It can confiscate your cash when you are boarding a flight and seize it because "perhaps" you were going to use it for an illegal purpose
and I am not just talking of international travel either

I have had more than one client come to me about this  You better be able to show the trail of that money. The fact you had saved it over a lifetime is no defense

Your stolen car can be seized, your home etc

The older I get the more libertarian, not liberal I become

Government should never be trusted. In many ways it is like a fire, keep it contained and it can be helpful even life saving, let it loose and it will kill you.  Try to put it out and it will fight back.

It does seem that there is no end to the depravity a government can exhibit and it just gets worse every year.  Name calling by both sides exacerbates the problem. If either side resorts to it, I try to remember for the future.

[Psychotic Bovine]

The government already has too much power

It can confiscate your cash when you are boarding a flight and seize it because "perhaps" you were going to use it for an illegal purpose
and I am not just talking of international travel either

I have had more than one client come to me about this  You better be able to show the trail of that money. The fact you had saved it over a lifetime is no defense

Your stolen car can be seized, your home etc

The older I get the more libertarian, not liberal I become

Government should never be trusted. In many ways it is like a fire, keep it contained and it can be helpful even life saving, let it loose and it will kill you.  Try to put it out and it will fight back.

It does seem that there is no end to the depravity a government can exhibit and it just gets worse every year.  Name calling by both sides exacerbates the problem. If either side resorts to it, I try to remember for the future.

So, Oss, I did have the gist of the asset forfeiture laws correct?

[98valk]

Blockchain technology, latest articles esp you-tube indicate this will allow the cashless society to come about.

I had seen a bit of information on block chain and then you mentioned it and so I did some research on it. I have a good idea of it but the more I research Bitcoin and Blockchain its becoming clearer it was designed for a purpose more than an alternate way of paying for things.

I was reading an article on how Bitcoin may affect your life and their slant was that there are very few graphics cards on the market these days. They are being bought up by the Bitcoin miners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RplnSVTzvnU   and she is very pretty.

Say hello to the decentralized economy -- the blockchain is about to change everything. In this lucid explainer of the complex (and confusing) technology, Bettina Warburg describes how the blockchain will eliminate the need for centralized institutions like banks or governments to facilitate trade, evolving age-old models of commerce and finance into something far more interesting: a distributed, transparent, autonomous system for exchanging value.

[Jess from VA]

Blockchain technology, latest articles esp you-tube indicate this will allow the cashless society to come about.

I had seen a bit of information on block chain and then you mentioned it and so I did some research on it. I have a good idea of it but the more I research Bitcoin and Blockchain its becoming clearer it was designed for a purpose more than an alternate way of paying for things.

I was reading an article on how Bitcoin may affect your life and their slant was that there are very few graphics cards on the market these days. They are being bought up by the Bitcoin miners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RplnSVTzvnU   and she is very pretty.

Say hello to the decentralized economy -- the blockchain is about to change everything. In this lucid explainer of the complex (and confusing) technology, Bettina Warburg describes how the blockchain will eliminate the need for centralized institutions like banks or governments to facilitate trade, evolving age-old models of commerce and finance into something far more interesting: a distributed, transparent, autonomous system for exchanging value.

Interesting.  

But boy it's hard for G's to collect taxes when people and business just go around trading value. (maybe it shouldn't be that transparent)

I like it.      (starve the beast)  

[Alpha Dog]

The government already has too much power

It can confiscate your cash when you are boarding a flight and seize it because "perhaps" you were going to use it for an illegal purpose
and I am not just talking of international travel either

I have had more than one client come to me about this  You better be able to show the trail of that money. The fact you had saved it over a lifetime is no defense

Your stolen car can be seized, your home etc

The older I get the more libertarian, not liberal I become

Government should never be trusted. In many ways it is like a fire, keep it contained and it can be helpful even life saving, let it loose and it will kill you.  Try to put it out and it will fight back.

It does seem that there is no end to the depravity a government can exhibit and it just gets worse every year.  Name calling by both sides exacerbates the problem. If either side resorts to it, I try to remember for the future.

Indeed Oss and is going on as we speak.  All under Ricoh laws  ( who is ricoh anyway ) all designed over 30 years ago I believe to take the assets of Mobsters, gang leaders and such.

[DirtyDan]

Mark of the beast ?

Or assimilation by the borg ?

We got spell checker, how about

THOUGHT checker ?

Dan

[baldo]

Indeed Oss and is going on as we speak.  All under Ricoh laws  ( who is ricoh anyway ) all designed over 30 years ago I believe to take the assets of Mobsters, gang leaders and such.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-96

Sessions seems to like it.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sessions-welcomes-expansion-of-asset-forfeiture-i-love-that-program/

And, for what it's worth, he then created a 'watchdog' to monitor any abuses. This, only after bipartisan blowback...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-department-creates-watchdog-for-asset-forfeiture-program/2017/10/17/af1825fa-b358-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.308aa478d8e3

[solo1]

According to the news today, a congressman says that the offensive requirement for veterans is back on the books snuck into the budget law.

If a veteran declares to the VA that he cannot handle his finances, the bureaucrats will give his name to the FBI list; result, forbidden to buy a firearm.  Again, note the key word.

Like Oss, I do not trust our government.

[Robert]

According to the news today, a congressman says that the offensive requirement for veterans is back on the books snuck into the budget law.

Like Oss, I do not trust our government.

I wonder how that happened 

We have to sign the bill to find out whats in it. OR I have a bridge for sale 

Asset forfeiture and confiscation along with rico are great tools for the government. They have minimum burden of proof, can arrest and take anything they want and till it gets to court your screwed. Technically if they prove with rico that you even knew what was going on you are part of the criminal act.

 They basically don't have the burden of proof and don't have to do their job so you are left fighting with no money, no way to live against an unlimited government. Bank accounts, houses, property, money, guns, anything the way that these laws work.

Your guilty till proven innocent. Yup thats fair.

Yet we have the Clinton's didnt need a law or to prove Hillary wrong she could have been arrested under Rico or not securing classified information without a real problem. Dont tell me that there the same laws for you and me and the rich.