My Mopar loyalty is wearing thin.

[Jess from VA]

First, I need a new battery.... down in that wheel well cutout with 37 screws (working up top, and down below, several times).

Then I go to visit my mom (88) for mom's day (VA to MI) and get stranded near Breezwood PA (to get on the turnpike), because my fuel pump mostly works, but intermittently decides not to work.  After spending an hour trying everything, I guess I'll need a tow, and a shop and a motel (on a Sunday).  But one last try and she mysteriously fires right up.   I can make it back home without stopping, but I can't make it to mom's without stopping (for gas), so I had a nice 5 hour drive ending where I started.

I get on the Utube, and the fuel pump is in the gas tank.  So is the fuel filter.  Pull the back seat to unplug things.  Drop the tank, fish out this big fuel-pump-in-a-bucket thing, with attached electricals and filter, and replace.  

I wonder why Dodge didn't put the motor in the fuel tank too.  

At least my friendly neighborhood garage gave me a ride home.

I've ridden my bikes up there many times, but the one day quickest trip (either way) is all busy turnpike in days of rain (right now), and all day combat rides aren't really that much fun when you are just going for time and distance.  And yeah, I'm getting old (and often cranky).      

[Crackerborn]

If it makes you feel better, Ford trucks fuel pump is also in the tank. Last one I put in, I cut a section of the truck bed out rather than drop the full gas tank. The joys of a work truck is the repair of the truck bed involved screwing down a sheet of plywood. I have no brand loyalty to a work vehicle, just price loyalty and have found all brands have their peccadillos.

[Oss]

Had rack and pinion break twice on my 300m among other issues so no more mopar.for me

Sorry about the bad day jess

[oldsmokey]

Typical of all mfgs. Seems that there are inline, frame mounted pumps that meet efi press. At 1/3 the cost and 1/10 of aggrivation.

[Gryphon Rider]

I don't think the inaccessible locations of critical parts is a Mopar-specific thing.  In order to meet fuel-efficiency requirements and to provide us with all the standard features that either used to be options or are new technology not even dreamt of 20 or 30 years ago, more and more stuff has to be fit in a smaller and smaller package; auto makers need to get creative to make it all fit.

Open your hood and ask yourself where you would put the battery and fuel pump if you were designing the car, and assuming there was a place for them, what other part would become inaccessible with the battery or fuel pump in the way.

This is part of the reason why I drive older cars, as I do all my own service and repair.  The cages I really want to drive (though impractical at this stage in my family's lives) were produced in the 60s to mid-80s.

[Pete]

With modern fuel injection came high pressure (40+ PSI) fuel pumps.
40+ PSI fuel pumps generate heat and do not tolerate operation without fuel.
So with that said manufactures placed the pumps in the fuel tank for cooling and assured fuel flow to the pump.

I do not know about you but I LOVE having heat and electricity enclosed in something that ignites easily, burns quickly and when confined in a steel tank can explode.

Most modern cars use the same design.

[czuch]

I also drive the old ones.
Right now, its a 1975 Chevy Laguna.
 I did a complete brake job, Master cylinder to shoes/pads with new wheel bearings and hoses for under $200.00.
My 1972 Chevy Suburban, same thing.   (There are 2)
My 1967 Ford F-250, same thing.
1961 Ford Galaxie, same thing
1957 Ford Country Sedan, same thing.
1963 VW Baja, same thing
1969 VW van, same thing.
Insurance, $20.00 a month. I rotate vehicles every 6 months.
Registration, $80.00 for a 5 year sticker here in sunny Arizona.
All are completely reliable and parts are in every Auto-Zone, Oriellys, NAPA, Rock Auto.
Granted I was a mechanic for many years, but the electric fuel pump in the gas tank kinda freaks me out.

[oldsmokey]

Got to have oxygen for it to boom. Should be no air in system. Frame mounted near filter

[Rams]

With modern fuel injection came high pressure (40+ PSI) fuel pumps.
40+ PSI fuel pumps generate heat and do not tolerate operation without fuel.
So with that said manufactures placed the pumps in the fuel tank for cooling and assured fuel flow to the pump.

I do not know about you but I LOVE having heat and electricity enclosed in something that ignites easily, burns quickly and when confined in a steel tank can explode.

Most modern cars use the same design.

Yep, if there is a version built today that doesn't have it's fuel pump in the tank, I don't know what it is.
But, I will agree that Chrysler has some FUBAR designs for some of it's cages. 

Rams

[Fazer]

I gave up in Mopar after owing a 1983 Chrysler 300 ES which was the jazzed up version of the K car.  What a POS.  Nothing but problems on top of problems, mechanically and cosmetically.  It went thru wheel bearings like a hog thru crap.  Washing it one day with a garden hose and pealed off a painted area 6 x 12 on the door.  Finally totaled it when a person ran a stop sign.  Should have thanked her.

Not to say Ford and Chevy don't and haven't had problems, but owind that Chrysler was a lifetime learning experience for me.

[RainMaker]

Gave up on Mopar, GM and Ford after repeated failures after 36000 miles.  They seem to be designed to last as long as the warranty and then you're on borrowed time.

Only drive Hondas now.   Normal scheduled maintenence is all they need.  The 2007 Odyssey is at 215K and the 2013 Fit is at 160K and run like new.   Both use the same oil filter which also fits the Valkyrie.

Had one Ford, the Festiva, that was built by Kia and it was running great at 135K until a Suburban t-boned it.  So thinking about Kia for the next car (the Niro hybrid).  50mpg and nice sized car.

[..]

Read a long time ago to  not let the fuel in the tank get below a quarter full as the pump can then be out of the fuel as the vehicle moves, bumps, corners, brakes, accelerates and then over heats.

[old2soon]

     My Neighbors 94 Ford Ranger club cab had something similar done recently. The pick up bed gits removed for That particular procedure. We have a mechanic here in Willow Springs that does Good work reasonably and fairly. He keeps his appointment times and you have your vehicle back generally the same day. I'm WAY Past the point where I lay on my back in the gravel wrenching on my cage.
     The Only thing I wrench on is my Phatt Ghurl. None of the Mechs at Honda know about a Valkyrie the way this board does. Jess-the newer they are the more "stuff" the mfgs add. Have you met anyone under 30 that knows how to gap plugs and points?   RIDE SAFE.

[Reb]

No issues with the fuel pump on my 2014 Ram, but I do have problems with the fuel level sensor, also located in the tank...

It intermittently all the sudden goes to E sometime when driving.

[Rams]

Gave up on Mopar, GM and Ford after repeated failures after 36000 miles.  They seem to be designed to last as long as the warranty and then you're on borrowed time.

Only drive Hondas now.   Normal scheduled maintenence is all they need.  The 2007 Odyssey is at 215K and the 2013 Fit is at 160K and run like new.   Both use the same oil filter which also fits the Valkyrie.

Had one Ford, the Festiva, that was built by Kia and it was running great at 135K until a Suburban t-boned it.  So thinking about Kia for the next car (the Niro hybrid).  50mpg and nice sized car.

IMHO, it all depends on what Chyrlser we're talking about.   If it's got a Cummins in it, I'm good with that.....  Opinions will vary.    Should we start a discussion on oil now?   

Rams

[Jess from VA]

Read a long time ago to  not let the fuel in the tank get below a quarter full as the pump can then be out of the fuel as the vehicle moves, bumps, corners, brakes, accelerates and then over heats.

That makes good sense Paul.  Maybe all that empty airspace lets things like pump connections corrode too.  

In 15 years (on my only new car ever) I've had very few problems, but then I just passed 30K miles.  My problems are mostly I don't drive it enough.  Who drives cars for fun, when you can ride bikes for fun?  It usually sits around on a full tank, but this winter/spring, I let it sit a long time on a quarter tank.  It is not uncommon for this car to have gas from 6 months ago in it.  I told my ins co I average under 2000 miles a year.  They were polite about it, but disbelieving.  I told them to come over and look at my odometer if they want to.

My brother the ace mechanic won't own or drive anything made after 1972.  He has a pile of things made from the 50s forward; 3 farm tractors, two trucks, a dump truck, an ancient road grader, backhoe, giant hilo, aircraft tug, stump grinder, two airplanes, and a new wood 30' boat he built with an ancient in line four cylinder he rebuilt.  It doesn't go fast, but it goes.

I believe all cages are junk. New ones are just newer junk.  Motorcycles (all brands) are great however.

No issues with the fuel pump on my 2014 Ram, but I do have problems with the fuel level sensor, also located in the tank...  It intermittently all the sudden goes to E sometime when driving.

Better start resetting the trip meter with every fill-up.  Like a bike.   

[sandy]

It isn't just cages. My '05 wing has the pump inside the tank. Of course, when you remove the seat, it's right in front of you.

[hubcapsc]

I stopped by my neighbor's house today in my new-to-me 2002 Tacoma. He
drives a Tacoma too. Until recently, he was the tow-truck man. He said the
only Tacomas he'd ever towed had been in wrecks  ...



-Mike "made in California"

[cookiedough]

Gave up on Mopar, GM and Ford after repeated failures after 36000 miles.  They seem to be designed to last as long as the warranty and then you're on borrowed time.

Only drive Hondas now.   Normal scheduled maintenence is all they need.  The 2007 Odyssey is at 215K and the 2013 Fit is at 160K and run like new.   Both use the same oil filter which also fits the Valkyrie.

Had one Ford, the Festiva, that was built by Kia and it was running great at 135K until a Suburban t-boned it.  So thinking about Kia for the next car (the Niro hybrid).  50mpg and nice sized car.

Yah, never had Chrysler/mopar since know better is by far overall the worst of the big 3 with GM and Ford not far behind.  Switched on over to Hyundai (Kia is sister) and Toyota and not many issues over 10 years now almost.  Yah, they have issues, but by far a lot less overall than the big 3 in my experiences driving 3 cars each 15K miles or so per year.

[shortleg]

  Last Mopars I was around were my parents cars.
 One a 70 Challenger R/T and the other a huge 70 Plymouth Sport Fury.
   Both cars would haul ass one a 383 the other a 440.
 I always found that they would run but everything else fell off
or stopped it from running meaning the engine was great but all else sucked.

[Jopson]

If you think cars and trucks are bad, you should try skid loaders!
Talk about 20lbs of crap in a 5lb bag!
There’s an oil leak down there somewhere.....

[Jess from VA]

I stopped by my neighbor's house today in my new-to-me 2002 Tacoma. He
drives a Tacoma too. Until recently, he was the tow-truck man. He said the
only Tacomas he'd ever towed had been in wrecks  ...



-Mike "made in California"

What a nice looking truck Mike.      That looks like just what I ought to have instead of a car (except I really don't need a 4X).

My '03 Intrepid looks just as clean, and also silver.

My question is, how do you get your cat to pose in all your pictures?   

[Moonshot_1]

I stopped by my neighbor's house today in my new-to-me 2002 Tacoma. He
drives a Tacoma too. Until recently, he was the tow-truck man. He said the
only Tacomas he'd ever towed had been in wrecks  ...



-Mike "made in California"

What a nice looking truck Mike.      That looks like just what I ought to have instead of a car (except I really don't need a 4X).

My '03 Intrepid looks just as clean, and also silver.

My question is, how do you get your cat to pose in all your pictures?   

If you look close, the cat is not posing. It is doing a cat scan diagnostic procedure.

[$ Ball]

If you think cars and trucks are bad, you should try skid loaders!
Talk about 20lbs of crap in a 5lb bag!
There’s an oil leak down there somewhere.....

Jolson  when you get your leak fix ,I have a Case you can work on next

[GiG]

Good Looking Toyota Hi-Lux there, Mike 

 Same color as my new truck(s).

~GiG~     - "old is good!"

[Patrick]

Pretty much everyone now sticks the pumps in the tank and they are fairly trouble free.

Since you mention you're fails intermittently I would think the issue is electrical, poor connection or relay.

[Rams]

Pretty much everyone now sticks the pumps in the tank and they are fairly trouble free.

Since you mention you're fails intermittently I would think the issue is electrical, poor connection or relay.

Most likely correct.    Although, I was about to suggest that it might be the nut holding the steering wheel........   

Rams. 

[hubcapsc]

My question is, how do you get your cat to pose in all your pictures?

She follows me around 

"old is good!"

And "new is big"... they don't seem to make small trucks anymore. This one
has big wheels and sits high. You have to step way up on the step and then
also stoop to get in the door  ...

-Mike "small cars big motorcycles"

[Jess from VA]

Pretty much everyone now sticks the pumps in the tank and they are fairly trouble free.

Since you mention yours fails intermittently I would think the issue is electrical, poor connection or relay.

Yes, I had already considered this very thing. The relay is good.  No engine light.  The thing is, you have to drop the tank to check all the important (and inaccessible) connections anyway.  Unless there was something very obviously wrong with a wire or connection, the big labor bill has already been incurred, and it would seem stupid to pay it and go though all that (in a 15yo car) without throwing in a new fuel pump while you're in there anyway.  

The fuel pump is not cheap, but not terrible, and the small part of the bill compared to labor.

I think the same mentality applies when you have to pay someone to pull the entire dash out of a car or truck to access something failed (another stinking lousy rotten design feature).  If your vehicle has some age or miles, you might as well change anything else that can fail that requires the whole dash (and wheel) be pulled while you're in there anyway.  A few hundred more in parts is the tail end of a $K or more in labor to yank the whole dash.

Especially for people like me who buy a vehicle then intend to keep it forever.

Intermittent was 3 times, including up in PA.  The first time it happens, it's not chronic (it's a fluke). The first time it happened, it started in 3 minutes, then fine for a week, the second 4 minutes (and I got plugs and a battery), the third over an hour.  Then it was chronic, and could not be trusted.

The Dodge forms and my mechanic tell me it's not rampant, but it's much more common than it should be.

[¿spoom]

Never been a MOPAR fan, and they've been at the bottom of most reliability lists all my life, but in this case as has been mentioned-that's where virtually all fuel pumps are now, for all the reasons mentioned. There another benefit to that location-how often do you hear about frozen fuel lines in the dead of winter (my Southern brothers may have to google that) any more? Most frozen lines weren't solid like a popsicle, but more like a  10'+slushie. pulling that towards the engine with vacuum was a lot harder (impossible) compared to pushing it with liquid gas from behind from a gas tank located pump. What scares me more now is the relatively new practice of building starters into the top rear of V-6&8 car and truck engines. Putting them way in the back so they engage the 12 o'clock position of the flywheel may sound good, until one realizes that's under the intake rails, manifold, 1500 feet of various wiring and fart tubes, etc ;(
   

[Patrick]

Never been a MOPAR fan, and they've been at the bottom of most reliability lists all my life, but in this case as has been mentioned-that's where virtually all fuel pumps are now, for all the reasons mentioned. There another benefit to that location-how often do you hear about frozen fuel lines in the dead of winter (my Southern brothers may have to google that) any more? Most frozen lines weren't solid like a popsicle, but more like a  10'+slushie. pulling that towards the engine with vacuum was a lot harder (impossible) compared to pushing it with liquid gas from behind from a gas tank located pump. What scares me more now is the relatively new practice of building starters into the top rear of V-6&8 car and truck engines. Putting them way in the back so they engage the 12 o'clock position of the flywheel may sound good, until one realizes that's under the intake rails, manifold, 1500 feet of various wiring and fart tubes, etc ;(
   

The first one I came across was a cadillac a number of years ago.  It took me 9 hours to change it and that friggin thing cost $900.  I'm not a big Caddy fan.

[MarkT]

My Dad was a Mopar fan because he made that decision back in the 40's - then it was a closed issue never to be revisited.  Regardless of the (un)reliability of his cars.  Wouldn't listen to me, or Consumer Reports, or anyone else.  I put a lot of stock into CR due to their non-profit, no advertising, and scientific testing methods along with consumer polls.  He went through nearly 20 Chrysler POS's in my lifetime.  Part of it was, he was a Kansas boy and so was Walter Chrysler.  Another part was, Chrysler was the underdog of the Big Three, and Dad being a flaming liberal (he even subscribed to Soviet Life), was all over the corporate welfare engineered by Lee Iacocca - I wonder if he even knew Iacocca was fired from Ford so Chrysler hired the loser.  As for me - I decided to go with companies that remained solvent on their merits, not because they were losers that had to be saved by the govt.  However I bought the Exploder at a time when Japan was practicing unfair trade practices so I said F them and bought it.  Of course I regretted it pretty soon but still felt good about flipping off the Japs.  No more loyalty to Ford after their treatment of me.

A cpl years ago I had to have the fuel pump in the tank of the Exploder replaced.  Majority of the cost was labor. I thought it was a bad place to put the pump at the time but understood it was for cooling. (Note fuel pump failures on the belly tank have been attributed to heat - the pump sits outside the tank right next to the exhaust headers.  I installed a heat shield on mine, and replumbed the system so it runs only for 9 minutes to move the belly fuel up to the main.)  I have seen lots of examples of engineering that was clearly not focused on ease of maintenance.  Mercedes comes to mind. Cars I buy now, that is a top priority - and those being old cars.  Can't get my wife to not suffer the driveaway depreciation of new cars.  She wants to be the first to fart on the seat.  To me, buying a car with some miles on it is much smarter for lots of reasons.  Not the least of which is avoiding the bleeding edge of technology, as well as having a couple years of reliability figures you can look up in CR.  A lot of the crap in cars now is just job security for engineers as well as complexity that reduces the MTF to zero.  And distractions that cause accidents (which should be renamed to "deliberates").

My Exploder has failures in the dash - heater controls - that require pulling the dash to fix.  I was told years ago the price for that - it simply isn't worth it in any sensible calculations.  Well I can still heat and cool the truck w/o controlling how hot the air is.  So it's another unfixed issue.  Recently had the driver's door latch linkage replaced, as well as the window switches in it fixed.  Busted out a thousand for that - but both the outside and inside latches were broke - ran it for years with only the inside latch working.  Also the wiper switch has failed but I can still get a swipe with the wash button and run Rain-X on the shield all the time.  The truck has had - since it was brand new - a problem with the automatic FWD engaging when it shouldn't - turned to lock on dry pavement.  The dealer said when it was under warranty "it's supposed to do that".  Then after the warranty expired and I insisted they fix it - they charged me $350 to reflash the ECM which worked for 2 weeks then the problem was back.  $350 for 5 minutes with a computer and no other cost.  That was Courtesy Ford on E470 & Broadway for you locals. Now renamed Auto Nation Ford, Littleton. They also wanted me to help them scam State Farm for hail damage repair.   I turned them in.  The truck is 21 years old now and I drive it as little as possible.  About 140k miles and I put less than a thousand on it annually.  I don't trust it for any trips.  But I have to use it for my annual hunt trip to help my friend in Wichita.  Almost 500mi one way.  The truck likes to wait for me to take it on a long trip - then it gives me a major breakdown.  Has happened 3 times, with no indication it's going to happen before departure.  So it doesn't get the thousand mile trips anymore.  The seat latch broke at the range a couple months ago.  I had to figure out how to brace the seat back to drive home, so I wasn't laying down.  Fortunately I had some stuff I could jam between the back seat tipped forward and my seatback.  A good thing now is, you can often find parts you need cheap on ebay.

Most Japanese cars have easily twice the range in reliability to the Big Three.  Sorry to observe that, but it's true. Both in my experience and stats collected by CR. Wish it wasn't.

[Wizzard]

I have had ford trucks for 40 years,, no problems at all and my current F150 king ranch I love more than ever.

[Jess Tolbirt]

i gave up on dodge in 1972,,frame would crack on my truck and the steering sector would fall down,,try that at 70mph on the interstate..I-10 back then was just a 2 lane road from tx to nm

[Hook#3287]

I grew up on Mopars.  My Step Dad was a Chrysler-Plymouth dealer and as a young man, I had access to all the Mopar family.  One of my favorites was the 65 Valiant station wagon with the old 225 slant six. 

On day, he came home and threw a set of keys to me and my buddy and said "go for a ride" .  We go outside and there was a white Superbird sitting there.

I've owned 4 trucks and a Explorer in my lifetime.

74 Dodge Sno Fiter bought used

89 Ford F250 bought new

99 Chevy 1 ton box truck dually bought used

03 Dodge Dually Diesel bought new

89 (I think) Explorer (the little one) bought new

I loved the Sno-fiter, made me a ton of money plowing snow. 360 auto. Wish I still had it.

The F250 was a POS and it's in tank fuel pump crapped out, replaced with a aftermarket lifetime guaranteed one.  That was just one of the many $1K problems with that junk.

The Explorer was just ok for a toy.  Neither good nor bad.

Still driving, working and loving my Dodge Dually Diesel and she's been, by far, the best vehicle (NOT including motorcycles) I've ever owned.  Not a Mopar motor, but the truck itself has served me well.

The Chevy is a work truck and it's a good truck.

I probably would not purchase a Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep from the French, just not the same.  New Ram?  maybe , maybe not.

My Step Dad stayed true to his Chrysler heritage and he owned a Caliber when he passed, but he also owned a Subaru that he loved.

[The emperor has no clothes]

On day, he came home and threw a set of keys to me and my buddy and said "go for a ride" .  We go outside and there was a white Superbird sitting there.

Sounds like a good dude  (I’m not sure I would have done that) 

[Hook#3287]

On day, he came home and threw a set of keys to me and my buddy and said "go for a ride" .  We go outside and there was a white Superbird sitting there.

Sounds like a good dude  (I’m not sure I would have done that) 

  He was, more than I can relate. I'm not sure I would do that either

[¿spoom]

Since the "take the car apart to get at the battery" issue came up, that's how my Pontiac Solstice is. You can pull a small front fender panel or remove a tire & plastic inner fender skirt to get at it's battery. The thermostat is worse, the base engine was designed to be transverse-mounted for front wheel drive applications, for the Solstice, they turned it 90° to run a "conventional" driveshaft back to the rear. Wheeee! Good-bye cooling system thermostat access. If you have a lift and a mechanically-minded chimp that owes you a solid, you may come out OK. I put up with it because it's a 300HP skateboard    

[Serk]

Toyota would love the opportunity to earn your loyalty... Just saying...

...and they're made in Texas too!

[GiG]

I have had ford trucks for 40 years,, no problems at all and my current F150 king ranch I love more than ever.

Hey, Randy, I am cracking up about all these geezers comparing their 70s era Mopars to 21st century technology, whining, complaining, and blaming modern automotive engineers!  

As a guy that had a corvette project,
all I can say is no red blooded male EVER had a mid-life crisis and
spent his IRA cash on a

Accord.