Groupiness... Part II

[DDT (12)]

WOW! Amazing response to the original post! Thanks to everyone who commented and offered input! Because of your many comments and observations, and because I felt I might need to offer a bit more on my original concerns, it seemed to me an additional thread on this topic might be appropriate… Anyway, here goes…

All of us have had some not-so-satisfactory experiences while riding with others. It’s good for us to compare notes on so many aspects of riding, even on more broad, relevant social experiences; so, this is a vein that seemingly might benefit from being ‘mined’ a bit more.

I brought this topic up in order to share some concerns I was having over my own ability to contribute, or at least to NOT detract, from an upcoming group ride. It appears these things have been on the minds of many others, as well… Anyway, I’ve enjoyed the ensuing discussion of this subject, especially the reassurance I’ve gained from all of you!

Working collaboratively is the indispensable element in the evolution of human development, yet it is also one of the most vexing challenges we’ve ever faced as a species… How to assemble several ‘whole’, self-sufficient, individual units into one cohesive body with all its discrete ‘parts’ working harmoniously toward a common objective. The need to better feed, clothe, protect and secure ourselves drove our progenitures to find ways to accomplish that difficult task… The ability to leverage individuals’ common efforts to magnify successes and improve overall outcomes became obvious, and… The race was on!

The needs for independence and security in one’s own identity, to not be exploited, placed in unreasonable peril, or treated unfairly, all have conspired both to unite us and to pull us apart. Civilization began the moment human ancestors realized two or more individuals could accomplish more together than separately. Conflict began the moment they realized one could exploit the efforts of others…. And here we are.

The larger the ‘group’, the more difficult the challenges become. Seems simple, but… We find wasted effort and other resources in corporations, family households, governments, military bodies, Rotary Clubs, and Sunday School programs… and with groups of riders!

It’s extremely easy to point out errors and oversights and to criticize any joint undertaking, because, along with the accomplishments of group efforts, flaws are also amplified… Stuff just naturally and unavoidably falls through the cracks… a predictable cost of doing business… Success is measured in terms of ‘value’, not efficiency: Do the benefits out-weigh the costs…? Efficiency can improve value at the margins, but value is the end-game.

The essence of compromise is a ‘drive towards the middle’. The best, most skillful riders must subdue their ‘levels of expression’ to accommodate the less accomplished. The least skillful must ‘step-up’ their game to the extent they can reasonably and safely do so. All must keep their egos in check. The trade-off is the sacrifice everyone must make in order to ‘derive value’ from the advantages of group activity.  Perfection is not possible. Improvement, however, is… Thinking and exploring issues collaboratively holds the key to improvement; so… again… here we are!

A delicate, precarious balance between the needs of the group and the needs of each of its individual members must be achieved and maintained… a Herculean task! To the extent they are able and willing, individuals must subordinate personal preferences to those of the group. Without compromising the objectives and aims of the group, accommodations for each individual must also be made by the group… Balance is the key… where precisely ‘to place the fulcrum’ is the challenge.

The folks with whom I’ll be riding are all experienced, accomplished, skillful riders with impressive resumes, and we all know each other well. We all have no difficulty with the riding style of any other participant, and we all are quite similar in our riding generally. I have zero concerns with any of them.

The over-riding issue for me is… every other member is younger and more physically able than this ‘vintage’ recluse. Stamina and sensitivity to heat and its effects on my body and behavior combined with a reduced inclination to ride in inclement weather hold-out the prospect of them needing and wanting to press on when I might be nearing the end of my rope!

I have sufficient experience to know my own limits, and I know better than to exceed them by much. I fear those limitations may not be sufficient for me to hold-up my end of the bargain… for this ‘weak link’ to meet his responsibilities to the group.

Time constraints on unlimited appetites for adventure is an ever-present issue imposing boundaries beyond which we cannot stray too far without mucking-up the subsequent stages of this overall project… Yeah, we all know of possible adjustments and ‘tweaks’ we could make, including the possibility separation might become necessary at some point; however, none of us want to resort to any of those dire options… it would defeat one of the primary aims of this ride! Oh, woe is me…

I fret and stew to a fault about stuff like this… myself, my ability limits, and my role… about disappointing dear friends. Perhaps all that ‘fretting’ is the big problem here and not the other factors… After all, I should not underestimate the understanding and maturity levels of my fellow travelers. I will need to ‘step-up’ my game… I just hope I can deliver! Maybe I’ll seriously ponder some on that…

Anyway, thanks again to all of you for your contributions… and, for your generous donations of ‘food for thought’.

DDT

[The emperor has no clothes]

I think you might be selling yourself short. I also think any slight sacrifices your fellow riders might have to endure outweigh the benefits they derive from your company. They know . That’s one of the little things that make you special to us. You consider other people’s feelings. 

[MarkT]

I wouldn't worry about it much, Bruce.  You are completely vetted as it were.  My example was a worst-case scenario, of which I've never seen anyone like him in the VRCC.  The "leader" was and is a total rube - for want of a thesaurus full of synonyms.  His wife was even worse so they were a matched pair.  I watched her pick fights with wait staff and other patrons at restaurants. Then tried to pick one with me.  Bad people best avoided.

[Ice]

Bruce, My dear friend, I agree with Meathead, you are selling yourself short and fretting about something you should not.
As you have stated multiple times, these are close friends, so they one, know your abilities and two, if the need would arise to scale back a bit, they would never have an issue with it. I believe I know the good folks you will be riding with and I have ridden with them and there has never been the issue of "not meeting expectations". It's all communications and among friends that should be the easiest thing to do without any one getting sore about it, and I highly doubt any of them ever would.
My advice is stop worrying about the small stuff and go enjoy the ride.
As always we hope we get to share some stories in the future again my friend.

[Avanti]

I have hiked many Fourteeners (mountains 14 thousand feet plus). When you lead you are responsible for the well being of every individual. It is the leaders responsibility to know each ones strengths and weaknesses and only go at the pace of the slowest person. Everyone needs to know at the beginning that the group makes the summit together or they stop short together. The leader decides for the group. If the whole group needs to stop for one individual and or return than they do. If someone decides to go rouge than they are on there own and I personally will never allow than to be part of another group, to dangerous. My main goal when leading is for each one to enjoy the trip and to return, reaching the summit is a plus. So in my book there is no such thing as falling behind.

 I believe that people are like libraries; wisdom and knowledge are gathered over time and stored up for those who are insightful enough to withdraw it and take the time to learn. Do not worry about holding someone back, if they do not have the insight to see the opportunity to learn, than let them go, there are plenty of us that do.  Moving forward no matter how slow is still moving forward. Those that race by you may just find themselves siting and waiting for help.

Avanti (forward)        
    

[Valkorado]

600 and some-odd thousand miles on one bike?!?!?!  You're beyond legendary to most of us here, you've attained SUPERHERO status! 

Nice to see your human side, tho'.   

[trout dude]

Don't worry be happy   Can't wait my friend    ALL WILL BE JUST FINE AS ALWAYS  See you soon

[Bigwolf]

WOW! Amazing response to the original post! Thanks to everyone who commented and offered input! or at least to NOT detract, from an upcoming group ride. It appears these things have been on the minds of many others, as well… Anyway, I’ve enjoyed the ensuing discussion of this subject, especially the reassurance I’ve gained from all of you.

The folks with whom I’ll be riding are all experienced, accomplished, skillful riders with impressive resumes, and we all know each other well. We all have no difficulty with the riding style of any other participant, and we all are quite similar in our riding generally. I have zero concerns with any of them.

The over-riding issue for me is… every other member is younger and more physically able than this ‘vintage’ recluse. Stamina and sensitivity to heat and its effects on my body and behavior combined with a reduced inclination to ride in inclement weather hold-out the prospect of them needing and wanting to press on when I might be nearing the end of my rope!

I have sufficient experience to know my own limits, and I know better than to exceed them by much. I fear those limitations may not be sufficient for me to hold-up my end of the bargain… for this ‘weak link’ to meet his responsibilities to the group.

I fret and stew to a fault about stuff like this… myself, my ability limits, and my role… about disappointing dear friends. Perhaps all that ‘fretting’ is the big problem here and not the other factors… After all, I should not underestimate the understanding and maturity levels of my fellow travelers. I will need to ‘step-up’ my game… I just hope I can deliver! Maybe I’ll seriously ponder some on that…

Anyway, thanks again to all of you for your contributions… and, for your generous donations of ‘food for thought’.

DDT

Bruce,
I think you are putting too much unnecessary worry on your self.
You know......the saying “ride your own ride” extends to a lot more than just staying within your own skill level.  It also means you need to stay within your own physical ability level.  Riding at 62 was quite a bit easier for me than riding at 70.  At 64 I rode all day in 107 degree heat just to get to Inzane XII.  Now, if I get out in 95 degree heat, my heart is doing crazy dangerous stuff within an hour riding.  I now ride at night when the temps are up.  Please do not push yourself into trouble.

I bet that all in your riding group will prefer you speak up if and when you feel you have reached your safe limit.  I bet they would prefer that you speak up early enough to begin to alter plans before you just can’t go any more.  In fact, I suspect that they really want to share the ride with you and their desire to do that will ensure that they will do all they can to accommodate your needs.  Talk to them about your concerns.  And remember,..... ride your own ride!

Bigwolf
PS: what good is the comradry of a group if you are pushing yourself beyond your comfort level?

[The emperor has no clothes]

Don't worry be happy   Can't wait my friend    ALL WILL BE JUST FINE AS ALWAYS  See you soon

WOW! Amazing response to the original post! Thanks to everyone who commented and offered input! or at least to NOT detract, from an upcoming group ride. It appears these things have been on the minds of many others, as well… Anyway, I’ve enjoyed the ensuing discussion of this subject, especially the reassurance I’ve gained from all of you.

The folks with whom I’ll be riding are all experienced, accomplished, skillful riders with impressive resumes, and we all know each other well. We all have no difficulty with the riding style of any other participant, and we all are quite similar in our riding generally. I have zero concerns with any of them.

The over-riding issue for me is… every other member is younger and more physically able than this ‘vintage’ recluse. Stamina and sensitivity to heat and its effects on my body and behavior combined with a reduced inclination to ride in inclement weather hold-out the prospect of them needing and wanting to press on when I might be nearing the end of my rope!

I have sufficient experience to know my own limits, and I know better than to exceed them by much. I fear those limitations may not be sufficient for me to hold-up my end of the bargain… for this ‘weak link’ to meet his responsibilities to the group.

I fret and stew to a fault about stuff like this… myself, my ability limits, and my role… about disappointing dear friends. Perhaps all that ‘fretting’ is the big problem here and not the other factors… After all, I should not underestimate the understanding and maturity levels of my fellow travelers. I will need to ‘step-up’ my game… I just hope I can deliver! Maybe I’ll seriously ponder some on that…

Anyway, thanks again to all of you for your contributions… and, for your generous donations of ‘food for thought’.

DDT

Bruce,
I think you are putting too much unnecessary worry on your self.
You know......the saying “ride your own ride” extends to a lot more than just staying within your own skill level.  It also means you need to stay within your own physical ability level.  Riding at 62 was quite a bit easier for me than riding at 70.  At 64 I rode all day in 107 degree heat just to get to Inzane XII.  Now, if I get out in 95 degree heat, my heart is doing crazy dangerous stuff within an hour riding.  I now ride at night when the temps are up.  Please do not push yourself into trouble.

I bet that all in your riding group will prefer you speak up if and when you feel you have reached your safe limit.  I bet they would prefer that you speak up early enough to begin to alter plans before you just can’t go any more.  In fact, I suspect that they really want to share the ride with you and their desire to do that will ensure that they will do all they can to accommodate your needs.  Talk to them about your concerns.  And remember,..... ride your own ride!

Bigwolf
PS: what good is the comradry of a group if you are pushing yourself beyond your comfort level?

Well said by both of my new Roanoke friends. 

Jerry, I never thought about age being a factor in being able to handle the heat. Why is it just when we finally get to the point in our lives financially, spiritually, and experience wise that we get to enjoy it more, things start turning south ? 

[Mr Whiskey]

[Bigwolf]

[quote author=meathead link=topic=102493.msg1021568#msg1021568 date=1533160529

Jerry, I never thought about age being a factor in being able to handle the heat. Why is it just when we finally get to the point in our lives financially, spiritually, and experience wise that we get to enjoy it more, things start turning south ? 
[/quote]
Rob,
I can not say for certain that age is the factor.  But it sure seems to be.  After all, I have often done things that were not in the best interest of good health.  However, the fact is that I started taking a synthetic thyroid medicine just a few days before Inzane ............ since I started that medicine, riding in high temps puts me in A-fib within an hour.  I am hoping that we can make some adjustments to medication and overcome this aggravation.  There is another factor too........at least for me.  After a few hours in the saddle, my butt gets mighty uncomfortable.  That didn’t use to be the case either.  They fooled us when they told us about the “golden years”.  Didn’t tell us the gold in the “golden years” was what we would be spending to keep these old worn and abused bodies going.  Ahh well, I’ll take life just as it is.

Bigwolf

[old2soon]

              I personally have missed-mondo assed sigh here-the last 2 Inzanes due to-nudder large butted sigh here-"physical limitations"!  Recollect I unloaded with the ensuing break of the left ankle back in Aug of 16 due to-wait fer it-"physical limitations".  And truth be knowed here-it DO fer sure and fer certain catch us up a LOT sooner then we want it to and far far sooner than we spect it to!  The years After I got Phatt Ghurl and Before I unloaded have been bar NONE some of The BEST ridin years of my life do in no small part of this thing we call V R C C!  Soon as it coll off a mite I WILL be waddin the miles back up on Phatt Ghurl. Anybody can use Any excuse they want to NOT ride. I truly duz wanna git back to where I wuz shortly after I gotz Phatt Ghurl-No scuse needed too RIDE!  I'm with some others in voicing-well my opinion man but similar to others-Bruce-A K A-DDT-do NOT sell yerself short-600 G plus on one cursed motorsickle? NOT meant ta be mean or spiteful BUT-suck it up butter cup!  RIDE SAFE.

[DirtyDan]

https://youtu.be/_VrFV5r8cs0

Dan

[DDT (12)]

NOT meant ta be mean or spiteful BUT-suck it up butter cup!   RIDE SAFE.

Again, lots of good responses and insightful comments! I thank you all for participating, and for allowing me to expose my 'wimpery' just a bit!    I didn't mean to come off as whining; but, upon reflection, I admit one could make a strong case for a little thumb-sucking going on there... Oh well... 

Dennis, that is some mighty fine advice you offered (quote above), and the contacts from my soon-to-be traveling partners reveal they pretty much agree with you!    No offence intended, I'm sure, and certainly none taken!   

Anyway, I've be tinkering around with the planned route to get us out yonder, and I've discussed bits and pieces with the guys, too... All are OK with pretty much whatever I want to do, and everybody is looking forward to exploring unfamiliar territory! Gotta love those fellas... any wonder why I enjoy hanging out with them so much?!!!

I knew a guy once upon a time who had an interesting take on worry... Worrying, he used to say, is one of the most useless things we can do... 95% of the time what we worry about doesn't even come to pass... and the rest of the time worrying doesn't change the outcome! At least in this case, I have to agree with him...    

There is most certainly a difference between thoughtful anticipation, roadblock identification, and good preparation, vs. choosing to let our apprehensions lead us down a counter-productive path... I was slipping down the wrong path, but you and my dear buds have turned me completely around! Thanks!!!   

We've all focused mainly upon the serious, negative, unpleasant, even dangerous aspects of group riding. I'd like to also mention that I have been on some excellent group rides before, and nearly every group ride I've been on at least had some positive aspects. I don't prefer them, and they represent a low percentage of my total riding, but I don't dislike them either... It just all depends!

Several of the responders to this thread mentioned that VRCC rides have usually been the best ones for them. I agree!!! Yes, the experience levels tend to be higher than with most other groups, but the special bond we all share, in my opinion, is an even bigger factor with our group. That bond inclines us, I think, to be more tolerant and forgiving, and really looking forward to the social aspects associated with the ride. I'm glad I've done the rides I've made, and I'll certainly do some more... if I'm able...   

We have a unique and very special thing going on here, and I count it one of the biggest blessings in my life to have stumbled in. Just another of the many, many wonderful things to come my way since ALI adopted me...     Have I ever mentioned that I'm mighty proud to be here?

DDT

[old2soon]

      Bruce-don't let yer gourd swell up BUT others have stated this and bears repeating here/now. Lots of folks here look forward to your travel logs-exploits if you will. Some have called you an inspiration-I've met ya I KNOW yer down home country!  I've also heard here and other places-just do it! Sides-you've whetted our collective appetites now go out and DO THAT RIDE!  THEN inform us in yer very own "style" of what you've experienced! Your faithful readers of yer narritives deserve nuttin Less!  And as always-T I A. RIDE SAFE.

[Oss]

LOL  good stuff

I was once told that when young (like in school) we may worry about what other folks are thinking about us and how we measure up to some standard or other

When older we realize they werent even thinking about us at all but self involved in their own worlds

Being a" superhero "  however people do often Think about you and look forward to your writings and musings and reports.  You dont have to leap tall buildings but your writings are appreciated by so many

Just keep doing what you are doing.  So far so good.

[f6gal]

I find the best part of the group ride is the end of the day camaraderie and frivolity.  For reasons I won't bother to elaborate, if necessary, I'm not averse to taking leave of the group and heading for that evening's destination.  I still get to enjoy the best part of the group ride.
Feel free to do the same... no one will care or think any less of you.  

Edit: Out of courtesy, let someone know though.  

[Thunderbolt]

Bruce I believe it may have been the first ride that we made to Cheaha when at a rest stop you mentioned a couple of things concerning my riding style that could be improved.  One of which was a lower gear and less braking as you were bringing up the rear or close to it.  I never forgot and on several occasions was glad that you had given me that bit of advice as it was needed.  I feel honored to have ridden with you a few times and suspect that you might have shared a couple of things with others over the years that might have saved their bacon so to speak.
I like you enjoyed riding by myself a lot as pleasing present company was not as complicated.

[Wizzard]

I figure the more I worry about what someone else thinks, the less time I spend on my own happiness.
I do not have an approval addiction.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I figure the more I worry about what someone else thinks, the less time I spend on my own happiness.
I do not have an approval addiction.

I doubt Bruce does either. But it brings to mind the differences between my wife and I. She has always been concerned about what other people think of her, me, the kids, grandkids, etc. I couldn’t care less about others judgements. Maybe a little from close friends and family, but that’s it. We were flying to Alaska a few weeks back and the earbuds I borrowed from her to watch the movie were hurting my ears. My granddaughter had fallen asleep so I grabbed her headphones that were some pink girly brand, she had also put a bow on them. Fellow passengers got a kick out of it evidently and were laughing and taking pics. It embarrassed my wife to the point she made me take them off. I look at it as life is too short to be worried about such things. 

[Wizzard]

I figure the more I worry about what someone else thinks, the less time I spend on my own happiness.
I do not have an approval addiction.

I doubt Bruce does either. But it brings to mind the differences between my wife and I. She has always been concerned about what other people think of her, me, the kids, grandkids, etc. I couldn’t care less about others judgements. Maybe a little from close friends and family, but that’s it. We were flying to Alaska a few weeks back and the earbuds I borrowed from her to watch the movie were hurting my ears. My granddaughter had fallen asleep so I grabbed her headphones that were some pink girly brand, she had also put a bow on them. Fellow passengers got a kick out of it evidently and were laughing and taking pics. It embarrassed my wife to the point she made me take them off. I look at it as life is too short to be worried about such things. 

Your wife and mine are alike in that way. I would totally have done what you did and thought nothing of it.

[3fan4life]

I figure the more I worry about what someone else thinks, the less time I spend on my own happiness.
I do not have an approval addiction.

I doubt Bruce does either. But it brings to mind the differences between my wife and I. She has always been concerned about what other people think of her, me, the kids, grandkids, etc. I couldn’t care less about others judgements. Maybe a little from close friends and family, but that’s it. We were flying to Alaska a few weeks back and the earbuds I borrowed from her to watch the movie were hurting my ears. My granddaughter had fallen asleep so I grabbed her headphones that were some pink girly brand, she had also put a bow on them. Fellow passengers got a kick out of it evidently and were laughing and taking pics. It embarrassed my wife to the point she made me take them off. I look at it as life is too short to be worried about such things. 

I imagine that you give her quite a few things to be concerned about.    

[The emperor has no clothes]

I figure the more I worry about what someone else thinks, the less time I spend on my own happiness.
I do not have an approval addiction.

I doubt Bruce does either. But it brings to mind the differences between my wife and I. She has always been concerned about what other people think of her, me, the kids, grandkids, etc. I couldn’t care less about others judgements. Maybe a little from close friends and family, but that’s it. We were flying to Alaska a few weeks back and the earbuds I borrowed from her to watch the movie were hurting my ears. My granddaughter had fallen asleep so I grabbed her headphones that were some pink girly brand, she had also put a bow on them. Fellow passengers got a kick out of it evidently and were laughing and taking pics. It embarrassed my wife to the point she made me take them off. I look at it as life is too short to be worried about such things. 

I imagine that you give her quite a few things to be concerned about.    

[DDT (12)]

What a family! I sincerely thank all of you who read and especially all of you who joined-in our dialogue... The unique perspective each of us has is based upon our own unique experiences, plus our personal interpretations of events. We believe them, as we should and unavoidably must.

Our 'visions of reality' are limited, however, by the incomplete view we've each had of the total experience... the range of our own limited view. What our eyes only see are only what comes in front of them. By sharing information, experiences, interpretations, and conclusions, we gain the 'added view' of others' sets of eyes, and our knowledge base is expanded... we all gain from the exchange!

In having such conversations in the always respectful, sensitive, and helpful manner these topics are examined, 'barriers to communication' are non-existent and absorption of 'new knowledge' easily follows. I have benefited from all of this... and I thank you all for the sharing of 'your own unique views' with me... and with all others who've participated!

DDT