Double Row Bearing upgrade why?

[SpidyJ]

Now that it's done, I wonder if Honda underestimated the braking torque on that side?


A little worried about no oil seal now but I think a little RTV around the outer diameter may help.


I also wonder if anyone has had either of the two larger bearings fail?

[Ricky-D]

C'mon, get real!

Honda overlooking something like you state is just not gonna happen.

Thinking you have now made an improvement is ludicrous.

You, by removing the oil seal, have made that bearing more susceptible to damage.

Thinking that the metal cover and whatever you add, is going to help, might make you feel better but who's fooling who?

It ought to be called the double row bearing DOWNGRADE.

***

[SpidyJ]

Ricky,

This does not explain why the bearing failed so terribly at 28K miles.  I want that explained.......really!!!

How many have falied after the "upgrade"  I'd like an answer to that too.....really!!!

 

[John Schmidt]

A little research will disclose the Boss Hoss was having a similar problem and the "fix" used was/is the same. As I recall, that's the main reason some of our riders started to make the change to the double row bearing because is was being used successfully on the Hoss. Again, with the Boss Hoss, failures following the change are nil compared to problems prior to a change over. Obviously nothing is perfect, but the loss of a seal on the outside apparently isn't affecting the lifespan of the bearing.

[Patrick]

Many years ago, when the first post regarding a rear bearing failure was mentioned I happened to have the rear apart for normal maintenance .. I popped the bearings, put the wheel in the lathe and welded up the left side.. It was a bitch filling that little hole.. I rebored it and stuck in a double bearing with seal.. I mentioned it here but I don't remember any comments.. That had to be at least 10 or 12 years ago..
There have been too many sealed bearing failures for me to accept[ auto/truck], especially good ole US made Timken's.. I've popped the seals and found them empty or nearly so.. So I use to add grease to them before installation,, this doesn't seem be the problem today that it used to be years ago..

[JC]

Lots of us 'darksiders' did the mod when going to the car tire due to the additional forces from the extra rubber on the road.

Mine is holding up fine, and the exposed bearing without the oil seal shows no sign of trouble. Consider that the oil seal is only there to block water, dust, and dirt from getting into the bearing, but since the bearing itself is also sealed this is redundancy.  I've run wheels on light aircraft with the same kind of bearing exposure and never had problems with them either. I do pay close attention to it when the rear is off for maintenance, and if it weren't a sealed bearing I might have reconsidered the mod, but so far nothing to be concerned about. Your results may vary, but I doubt it.

I've never heard of a bearing failure on either side of an upgraded wheel.

No, I'm no engineer, but I believe the mod works well, and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again, but then again, I may just be 'ludicrous'.

Ride safe!

[Patrick]

Aircraft bearings live in a little different environment.. They don't get the usage/mileage that auto/bike bearings do and the FAA requires they be inspected and packed during inspection.. But,, I understand what you're saying..

[SpidyJ]

I am Manufacturing Engineer so I worry about everything, that's why I asked.  I have the original spacer so I can always go back to the original unludicrous set up.

We live by MTBF.........28 K for a wheel bearing is ludicrous!

Never had a Harley wheel bearing as much as whimper (haw).........

[Chrisj CMA]

Now that it's done, I wonder if Honda underestimated the braking torque on that side?


A little worried about no oil seal now but I think a little RTV around the outer diameter may help.


I also wonder if anyone has had either of the two larger bearings fail?

You are not without an oil seal.  That rubber piece is a dust seal and it covers a sealed bearing.  There are plenty of bearing applications that are more exposed and in dirtier climates that that, but If you are concerned (I would be more from water than dust) then there is a cover (thin metal part) that some have added to keep out the elements.  My bearings are all good, and I have only had one go bad in the ten years I have owned the bike, so Im not to motivated to change anything on it myself quite yet

[valky1500]

A double row bearing in itself is not the answer. It needs to be a double row, angular and sealed bearing in order to handle the lateral forces from the rear wheel changes when going dark side. It's easy to forget that car tires are not rounded like motorcycle tires are.

This is the bearing I have been using for years and with good report. http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit10108?
and don't forget the resized spacer for peace of mind.

It's your option to ignore and go without this advice of course but you also have the option to take it from those who've been there and done that. Rear wheels get expensive, not to mention any break down along the way or while cruising at 85. 

[Rio Wil]

So, you have a bearing failure at 28K miles and you figure you need a beefier bearing.  I have 168K on my original rear bearings with the last 100K being on car tires.  If they are undersized due to the additional stress of the car tire, wonder when they are going to fail......whats up with that???

[Fritz The Cat]

So, you have a bearing failure at 28K miles and you figure you need a beefier bearing.  I have 168K on my original rear bearings with the last 100K being on car tires.  If they are undersized due to the additional stress of the car tire, wonder when they are going to fail......whats up with that???

Glad to hear this. Dunno what's going on with these bearing failures but I suspect the double bearing mod is overkill and could lead to unexpected problems somewhere down the road.

[SpidyJ]

So, "at the end of the day" (God I hate that phrase) no one, not one, can tell me why these bearings fail prematurely so often.

Debate will continue, in my mind Honda did something wrong, but who cares. Fix it and ride.

[Red Diamond]

So, "at the end of the day" (God I hate that phrase) no one, not one, can tell me why these bearings fail prematurely so often.

Debate will continue, in my mind Honda did something wrong, but who cares. Fix it and ride.

I don't  think that you can make the statement " why these bearings fail prematurely so often", there are many Valkyries on the road that have not had rear bearing failure. Some with many more miles than has been accumulated on your bike. My friend has a 2K I/S with over 155K miles and one failure at 152K miles, he rode it 275 miles to home with that failed bearing. I also have never experienced this failure on my bike, should I want to buy another one and the seller mentioned the double row mod, I would not buy it. As an engineer, you probably know that is altering repair procedures, which is not good for the untrained novice.

[RP#62]

If it was a design problem, you'd see the majority fail within a few standard deviations of a mean, and as noted we're not seeing that.  That tells me the failures are due to other factors such as manufacturing/material flaws, installation error, operating environment or some combination of those factors.  The load on that bearing may be such that it has less margin and is more susceptible to failure due to the above factors.  Given the failure rate, I'm not sure you could justify the mod, looks like its more about peace of mind (or "emotional maintenance" as I've referred to it the past).  Kind of like changing your oil at 3000 miles or your timing belts at 100,000 miles.  Its not technically justified, but it makes you feel better when you're going across Utah and you see that sign that says "No services next 100 miles".
-RP

[Xtracho]

Well I'm pretty new to you guys here but have been on the 'Wing forum for years. Over that time I have simply followed the manufacturer's recommended service intervals on my GW. So far so good. We do the same on my boat in Brazil with the 3 - 3516B Cat Turbos. Seems to work just fine with them also. I'm not gonna keep fixing things till they break. Just my .02.

[Fudd]

Well I'm pretty new to you guys here but have been on the 'Wing forum for years. Over that time I have simply followed the manufacturer's recommended service intervals on my GW. So far so good. We do the same on my boat in Brazil with the 3 - 3516B Cat Turbos. Seems to work just fine with them also. I'm not gonna keep fixing things till they break. Just my .02.

You can't always go strictly by the book on service matters.  The service manual was written when the Valkyrie was new in concept.  We now have 15 yrs of hindsight servicing the bike.  For instance, I don't think the manual even mentions the pinion cup in a service interval procedure.  And, I don't know of anybody (other than the Honda shop) who removes the rear wheel by first dropping the right exaust. 

[Tropic traveler]

Well I'm pretty new to you guys here but have been on the 'Wing forum for years. Over that time I have simply followed the manufacturer's recommended service intervals on my GW. So far so good. We do the same on my boat in Brazil with the 3 - 3516B Cat Turbos. Seems to work just fine with them also. I'm not gonna keep fixing things till they break. Just my .02.

You can't always go strictly by the book on service matters.  The service manual was written when the Valkyrie was new in concept.  We now have 15 yrs of hindsight servicing the bike.  For instance, I don't think the manual even mentions the pinion cup in a service interval procedure.  And, I don't know of anybody (other than the Honda shop) who removes the rear wheel by first dropping the right exaust. 

I agree that sometimes the manufacturer's "book" intervals may be suspect. In the automotive world the sales departments have some say in the intervals so they can try to one up each other with how much less service their products need. It's all about making the sale!
BTW, I did the double row mod on my '97 just for the heck of it at 100K miles.   

[Robert]

I will also have no answer why they fail sorry, mine has been fine. The bearings purchased do have a built in seal and dont need any extra protections. What I am saying is any vehicle is designed by people who do make mistakes. I have seen to many and some really stupid ones that I have to correct or go to TSB's to find out a update to correct a manufacturing defect. We all know cars that have been recalled Prius included to change a defect or manufacturing error. To say that the double row bearing is no good not needed and Honda engineers are infallible is laughable in itself. As asked we dont know why the high number of failures just like the drive splines failing. So I think it would be wise to be a bit more discrete in the criticism of someone trying to improve a design. Like all things if it works we will have more longevity without repairs. If it doesn't it will fail and will be shown bad but to date I have heard of single row bearings fail but not many if any double row fail. I applaud those who have gone on and made by their own design the Valk a stronger more reliable machine. Some I am amazed at the creative talents here on this board. Not to mention the machine shop expertise that is also available my hats off to all that have gone were no man has gone before and thanks for some of the tips I have used to improve on a already perfect machine. 

[deadwood]

C'mon, get real!

Honda overlooking something like you state is just not gonna happen.

***

They had no problem overlooking the loads on the u joint and pinion cup. Why not the bearing?

[98valk]

C'mon, get real!

Honda overlooking something like you state is just not gonna happen.

***

They had no problem overlooking the loads on the u joint and pinion cup. Why not the bearing?

same design as used by the GL1500 which weighs over 100 lbs more than an I/S with just 10-15 more HP and torque than the GL.
Gold wing GL1500 owners don't have a lot of problems. The GL even has higher gear ratios for lower engine rpms, which translates into more load on the drive train under heavy throttle load.
so is it honda design or owner abuse that causes failures?

[Ricky-D]

Of all the tens of thousands of Valkyries produced there are maybe 10 riders that have done the double row bearing modification to the rear wheel.

Now to assume that it is an improvement,  is to deny the evidence that it (the modification) is not needed.

Regarding the fact you have to eliminate a oil seal, but still have one layer of protection remaining (the internal bearing seal) is to effectively be stating that redundancy of protection that Honda deemed to be important is not really needed.

If that is not a case for calling the double row bearing modification a downgrade, then go ahead and do it!

I think most of those few probably carry a spare on the bike. ????

***

[sugerbear]

OK......i'll say it again. the ONLY time you hear about that bearing is when it fails.
whether it's from a defect, power washing, too much "fiddleing" or what, doesn't matter.

point is, there are several hundred (or thousands) out there being ridden every day without bearing failure. you never see a thread about what DIDN'T happen today.

[O-B-1]

looks like its more about peace of mind (or "emotional maintenance" as I've referred to it the past).  Kind of like changing your oil at 3000 miles or ...
-RP

Actually, changing oil at 3,000 miles does make good sense. Blow-by through the ring gaps can allow acids to build up causing earlier deterioration in bearings, etc. The oil doesnt wear out, the filter will remove the solids, but the filter cannot remove the corrosive combustion by-product contaminants.

My 2001 Dodge Dakota with the 4.7 l V-8 still runs flawlessly and doesn't leak from the main seals with over 265,000 miles on it. I changed the oil every 3,000 miles and used the cheapest "dino-juice" I could find rather than the expensive synthetics and leaving them in there for 10,000 miles...

[deadwood]

[same design as used by the GL1500 which weighs over 100 lbs more than an I/S with just 10-15 more HP and torque than the GL.
Gold wing GL1500 owners don't have a lot of problems. The GL even has higher gear ratios for lower engine rpms, which translates into more load on the drive train under heavy throttle load.
so is it honda design or owner abuse that causes failures?
[/quote]

I had a GL1100 that I put 98K on before I sold it and bought the Valkyrie. I never did any drive shaft main on the GL1100 and never had a problem

I had the pinion cup failure on my Valk at 60,000 miles.
I didn't ride the two bikes any different. My experience and others, to me, indicate a design issue with the drive line of the Valk. If they screwed up the loads on that why couldn't they screw up the loads on the rear wheel bearing?

[Valkpilot]

I had a GL1100 that I put 98K on before I sold it and bought the Valkyrie. I never did any drive shaft main on the GL1100 and never had a problem

I had the pinion cup failure on my Valk at 60,000 miles.
I didn't ride the two bikes any different. My experience and others, to me, indicate a design issue with the drive line of the Valk. If they screwed up the loads on that why couldn't they screw up the loads on the rear wheel bearing?

The GL1100 had a different pintion design.

My obeservation from posts on this forum is that pinion cup/spline failures on the Valkyrie are almost all directly a result of improper maintenance or failure to maintain it at all.

BTW this in not an indictment of most of the DIY mechanics on these boards.  Dealers are often guilty of not maintaining the pinion when they change tires.  Why they will (apparently) service a GW1500 correctly, but not a Valk is one of the mysteries of the universe, I guess.

[RainMaker]

Of all the tens of thousands of Valkyries produced there are maybe 10 riders that have done the double row bearing modification to the rear wheel.

If only 10 have done this then at least half of those are here in the DFW area.

[valky1500]

No one says doing the double row bearing mod is for everyone. That is unless they go darkside.
And then it's only an option from a preventative maintenance standpoint called safety and nothing more is advocated.
I want to go one step further and state that it is only an option of common sense.

Take it or leave it.

[Jess from VA]

More left rear wheel bearings fail than any other.  (though this may be a relatively small number vs all valks produced it is still statistically significant) (and of course I cannot document it)

No one who has done the double row left mod has had a failure yet.

If one is good, two is better.

Get an unexpected left rear failure out in the middle of nowhere (having never used a power washer on your relatively low-mile, well maintained bike), and see if you don't find this a no-lose upgrade.  It's not like it's expensive or troublesome or crazy.

When's the last time you remember anyone losing their double row right rear wheel bearing?  Anyone?

[SpidyJ]

......and I have all the parts to go back to the unludicrous design when that double row bearing does fail.
 

[Robert]

Spidey I doubt you will ever need the original. Some items are made heavy duty to me the double row bearing would qualify.  Some members think Honda is god but they have trade offs they need to watch the bottom line and wont put in some of the more expensive things that will outlast the bike. I think the rear bearing fails more than we think because I know a person on this board that makes the spacer for the double row bearing. As for what is on our bikes components that could have used a factory upgrades are the headlight switch and actually the electrical system, the petcock, tires, better fuel filter,head bearings, drive shaft splines, ujoint. This list is semi complete and reflects problems that owners frequently encounter. The difference between the Valk and some POS is once fixed or modified its done. So I think I will classify this as a heavy duty upgrade just as I would classify the petcock as a must have upgrade or essential.

[deadwood]

The GL1100 had a different pintion design.

My obeservation from posts on this forum is that pinion cup/spline failures on the Valkyrie are almost all directly a result of improper maintenance or failure to maintain it at all.

BTW this in not an indictment of most of the DIY mechanics on these boards.  Dealers are often guilty of not maintaining the pinion when they change tires.  Why they will (apparently) service a GW1500 correctly, but not a Valk is one of the mysteries of the universe, I guess.
[/quote]

I know its different. Thats the point. Honda can make a drivshaft /pinion cup that can go 100,000 miles with no maint. They did not on the Valkyrie. Where in the manual is the scheduled maint requirment for the pinion cup and drive shaft? Its not there because they did not expect it to be a problem. In my mind its a design issue. Same could be true of the single row bearing.

[deadwood]

So, you have a bearing failure at 28K miles and you figure you need a beefier bearing.  I have 168K on my original rear bearings with the last 100K being on car tires.  If they are undersized due to the additional stress of the car tire, wonder when they are going to fail......whats up with that???

Glad to hear this. Dunno what's going on with these bearing failures but I suspect the double bearing mod is overkill and could lead to unexpected problems somewhere down the road.

I'm not an engineer but my understanding of the usual reason for putting a double row bearing on one end of a shaft and a single row bearing on the other is that the double row is a solid (only running clearance axially and radially) and the single row gives radial support to the shaft but allows for axial growth (thermal etc.).  If this is the case then then with double row bearings on both ends of the shaft there is less allowance for axial growth of the different components and you could maybe get into a situation where the side load on the bearings could work against each other.

This is neither an endorsement or condemnation of the procedure just an explanation of a principle that I have seen in various mechanical assemblies - i.e. blowers on Detroit diesel 2 cycle engines.  You do what you want to your bike and I'll do what I want to mine.

I think you are confusing the double row roller bearing with a ball bearing. Many shaft designs have a roller bearing on one end to provide purly radial support and a ball bearing on the other to provide both radial and axial support. That way the shaft can take a thrust or axial load on the ball bearing but can also grow as required.

[Ricky-D]

Yeah, here's a bike that is 12 years or older and is estimated to be giving you 300 thousand (trouble free) miles or better and:

HONDA.................... went the cheap route to save a buck.

Twisted logic if you ask me.

1) There is rarely any interchangeable parts of import between model of their bikes.
Why?  Because Honda designs every part specifically for the job intended for that model. No skimping or cost saving measures that entail using the same parts in different bikes that won't measure up quite correctly.

2) The Honda models are composed of distinctly well finished parts where they spare no expense to give the riders an exceptionally well manufactured motorcycle without condition. Recognized by the industry as the standard for motorcycle manufacturing.  Honda saved the motorcycle industry with value motorcycles for the everyday rider.

So while you criticize and complain about Honda and their "POOR" products and bad engineering, why not look at what you are riding.

It's a Honda you hypocrite.

The best motorcycles in the world, and go dispute that!

***

[R J]

Ricky-D, why don't you tell us how you really feel?

Knock on wood, I have not had a rear wheel bearing fail in 242K+ miles.

I haven't made the dual bearing make over yet, but I have all the parts if and when the time comes.

[SpidyJ]

We're just talkin' it through Ricky.
No offense meant.......why take it personally?
It's all good.........we love our Valks or we wouldn't be here.
You have valuable input.  I always read your posts.
Peace Bro......really!

[valky1500]

@Ricky-D
I will agree that the #1 reason for the rear wheel bearing failures on our 1500's can be said it's most likely from the over or under torquing when replacing the wheel nut. But the rear end was also from the design of the 1500 GW and that had less torque at the tire to ground.

That said, there are 4 bearings 2 on each side plus the dust covers on the rear wheels of the GL1800.

Therefore, mother Honda does know something about this matter.

[Rosie]

My neighbors Harley just had a bad rear wheel bearing. 23000 miles,I know things fail at anytime but he always washes it with a Power washer when he gets back from a ride, wondering if that could have something to do with it.

[98valk]

My neighbors Harley just had a bad rear wheel bearing. 23000 miles,I know things fail at anytime but he always washes it with a Power washer when he gets back from a ride, wondering if that could have something to do with it.

I would say so. there is waterproof and water tight, wheel bearings are water tight which after a certain pressure water intrusion will happen. waterproof is like a welded pipe joint, zero intrusion.

[Disco]

I use a power washer every time I wash the bike.  The key to doing it safely is never get the nozzle any closer to your bike than you can to your hand.