Think I have a fix for the hydrolock condition...

[moodyvalk]

I am currently loading up a video on youtube discussing what I believe is causing the hydrolock condition and how we need to fix it.  I was hesitant to even post this thread because I do not want to start a disagreement over whether its the float needles or the petcock, because its neither in my opinion.  please watch my video in full first and then post your responses.  I thought a video would be the best way to show what I have found. 

The float height is the problem, which the floats are non adjustable but I think I have found a solution.  I would love to hear all constructive criticism so we can work together as a community to find a confirmed fix!

This came about on my recent "turbo valkyrie" build, and I thought this would be a perfect time for me to help the valkyrie community solve a dreaded problem.  Funny thing is, I didnt know you guys were having issues with flooding the motors intermittently or I would have looked into this sooner...
with the turbo build we have to run an electric fuel pump to increase pressure as boost increases so it is important that the needles and floats operate properly, I have never had an issue like this after turbo'n any other motorcycle, it just boils down to the fact that the electric fuel pump to accents the already known issue with the valkyrie carbs...

still waiting on video to upload on youtube.  as soon as it uploads I will post a link to it...

And I do apologize in advance because towards the end of the video the camera was not focusing very well to show some of the details I was want to show....

[moodyvalk]

there is the link...

http://youtu.be/QwJdnA5l8cQ

[jimmytee]

Interesting thought. It has always been my understanding that for the hydro-lock scenario where fuel travels from the petcock through the carbs ,  a float must have also failed. Your conclusion may well point to the culprit. I installed a manual Pingle petcock a couple of years ago and have just settled with shutting the gas off. If I were to decide to pull my carbs for some reason, I'll have to look into that.
The other thought on the hydro-lock is that fuel leaks through the diaphragm in the petcock into the vacuum line and then finds it's way into the cylinder bypassing the carbs.

What book was that you were referencing?

[Bone]

My carbs haven't been off I think your on to something I will follow this thread.

The petcock on my 98 Tourer failed. I ordered the rebuild kit and then someone posted the this link. That was what I wanted to make mine manual. I did the conversion the same afternoon (2010) and it is manual. I have the rebuild kit in a parts drawer if needed.

The link shows the method I used. This conversion eliminated the vaccum line and converted the diaphragm into a big O-ring.

http://daughertymotorsports.com/howto/tankvalve/tankvalve.html

[IamGCW]

moodyvalk

Great work there.  The video focus could use some help on the parts where you show the spring on the float needle.  Maybe you could add some still pictures in the forum to help guide others better. 

Many have added an electric valve from DanMarc.  Search the forums here for some details if you're interested. 

Thank you for putting this together and posting it.

Gil

[Chrisj CMA]

I think your theory has merit.  I wonder though why Honda would have made the floats not adjustable.  You would think since they offer a specified height that there would be some way of achieving/maintaining that height.

I have never taken a Valkyrie carb apart, but I have had several other cabs opened up and the tab that closes the needle valve is usually a metal tab that can be bent.  The Valkyrie looks all plastic.

Im wondering if a heat gun and careful work could produce a "permanent adjustment" to the plastic where it contacts the float.

I also wonder if somehow we could get an answer from Honda as to how they set the float height at the factory.

[Pete]

It is entirely possible that there is more than one cause for this issue.

Of the 2 that I worked on that had the problem, both were solved by simply cleaning the carbs, cleaning the tank and installing  new petcocks replacing the ones that failed that had failed. The floats in both cases were fine and worked correctly after cleaning the seats and needles, but not before cleaning.

That is not to say that another issue could result in the same symptom. I would not be and am not surprised that you have found another one.

[BobB]

I believe we have always known that the dreaded hydrolock condition was caused by failures, both in the petcock and in a carburetor.  That is inherent with our gravity fed fuel and our down draft carburetors.  Dustin may have found another carburetor issue that we have not been aware of.  To date we have assumed we had a sticking float.  The solutions we have use to date (manual peacocks and electric shutoff valves) remain valid.  I still use the OEM petcock (have replaced the cover set) with no DanMarc valve. 

IMO, hydrolock is a much overrated issue, largely due to the parts and labor that is required to fix it.  We have discussed it here to the Nth degree.  Actual occurrences are rare.  Some time back we had a poll on hydrolock.

[BonS]

I have a set of take-off carbs that I'll give a look at later today.

If the float height is adjusted to avoid the floats hitting the carb body then the fuel level in the bowl changes which requires jet or needle adjustments to get the fuel mixture corrected. That said, if the float levels are as wrong as they are in your set-of-six carbs then things are already out of whack and all of our bikes could be running better if this is corrected.

In other bikes I'd use the actual fuel level in the carbs as a means of setting the float height. I do this by putting a piece of clear tubing on the bottom of the carb bowl and filling the carb with fuel. Many carbs have an external mark for the correct fuel level. The float height measurement itself is only used as a starting point for this adjustment. Actual fuel level measurement is a pain because it takes a lot longer - and you need some method of fine adjustment, but at least you're focusing on the core issue versus float height.

Nothing that I have said above is meant to detract from your observation that the float must be able to thoroughly stop the flow of fuel into the carburetor and do this without the interference of the floats contacting the carburetor body.

[old2soon]

Quite interesting. The height difference of the 2 floats was apparent in the video. I've seen the innards of neglected fuel systems with ethanol and my wonder is are the floats up to the ethanol longer term? Good catch.  Thanks for sharing this information with us!  RIDE SAFE.

[Ricky-D]

That's pretty interesting... I am going to look in the repair

manual to make sure of the float height measurement.

I agree with the statements that making the change will

affect the gasoline level in the carburetor and can also

effect a change in the fuel/air mixture. I'm not so sure

a jet change would be necessary however.  Reason I say

this is because the Valkyrie engine runs rich to begin with.

***

[indybobm]

As others has stated, this is interesting. Th floats used in Valkyrie carbs are only used for the Valkyrie.
On the other hand, the float needles themselves are used on many different models of Hondas and probably other makes.

here is my idea, Is there a longer float needle available that would accomplish the same thing without using springs or other items that can fall out and cause havoc?

[Savago]

Moody

I think your findings make sense and you deserve kudos for sharing your ideas here at the forum. Let's wait for other forum members feedback, but I feel anyone would love to have a definitive solution for hydrolock problems (i.e. addressing it on the carbs).


Savago

[Ricky-D]

My take on what he is pointing out is that the floats

can possibly touch the top inside the carburetor

thereby prohibiting the needle from seating and

therefore causing the system to leak gasoline.

Nothing more.

***

[Firefighter]

This could be a problem, he might be right. I have never had a hydrolock problem and I did not know that we are having these problems without dirty or gummy carbs. Do you guys who have hydrolocked found a reason, or was it a mystery? I always thought there was dirt or gum in the carb, but I don't know. He stated that the floats might be warped because of ethanol gas, has anyone measured a new float to see if the old one is warped? If this is a problem, I like Indybobm's ideal of a longer needle. I have worked on lawnboy lawn mowers in the past with plastic carburetors and plastic floats that would sometimes be distorted. Good discussion, and thanks for sharing the video and expertise.  Firefighter

[98valk]

org posted this in '08

Re: Another hydrolock question

Posted By: 98valk <fitness7days@nospam.juno.com>
Date: 9/4/2008 at 12:30:31

In Response To: Another hydrolock question (G-Man (Gary in NY))

this is from Rider mag sept 1988 about the '88 goldwing Gl1500.
they had the hydro-lock problem and it turned out to be the bowl vent hose was sagging. "the low spotfills with gas and prevents air circulation, much like a sink trap. without a connection to atmosphere, the float bowls pressurize and raw fuel is forced up and out of the carbs through the needle jet. From there gravity takes the fuel down the intake runners. if that cylinder has an open intake valve, hydrolock." "The article states that honda issued a Product Update kit on a fix in feb of that yr which included a metal air-vent pipe and a vacuum fuel valve."
Looking at the service manual pics in the carb section it shows the vent hoses as straight sections just laying loosely on top of other hoses. My 98's vent hoses have a 90 degree end. the end is installed into holes in the rear carb support frame.
So this might be the reason and cause of the problem for some bikes.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/vrcc_tech.cgi?noframes;read=1274246

honda service bulletin fix

http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/sb1.pdf

[moodyvalk]

the way I understand the 1500cc goldwing vs the valkyrie is they have different carburetors and the floats are adjustable.  thanks for sharing but I dont think this applies to the valkyrie

org posted this in '08

Re: Another hydrolock question

Posted By: 98valk <fitness7days@nospam.juno.com>
Date: 9/4/2008 at 12:30:31

In Response To: Another hydrolock question (G-Man (Gary in NY))

this is from Rider mag sept 1988 about the '88 goldwing Gl1500.
they had the hydro-lock problem and it turned out to be the bowl vent hose was sagging. "the low spotfills with gas and prevents air circulation, much like a sink trap. without a connection to atmosphere, the float bowls pressurize and raw fuel is forced up and out of the carbs through the needle jet. From there gravity takes the fuel down the intake runners. if that cylinder has an open intake valve, hydrolock." "The article states that honda issued a Product Update kit on a fix in feb of that yr which included a metal air-vent pipe and a vacuum fuel valve."
Looking at the service manual pics in the carb section it shows the vent hoses as straight sections just laying loosely on top of other hoses. My 98's vent hoses have a 90 degree end. the end is installed into holes in the rear carb support frame.
So this might be the reason and cause of the problem for some bikes.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/vrcc_tech.cgi?noframes;read=1274246

honda service bulletin fix

http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/sb1.pdf

[moodyvalk]

thanks for all the replies guys and good questions!!!

so this is not what I would call a confirmed fix at this time but its for sure one step closer than what we have imo...

I have thought of a longer needle, that would be perfect except the length would have to be exact to have the float level at the correct spot, i like the idea of some time of way to adjust the height

wish i had a brand new float to compare these floats with that would prove or disprove my assumption of the warped floats.

[moodyvalk]

moodyvalk

Great work there.  The video focus could use some help on the parts where you show the spring on the float needle.  Maybe you could add some still pictures in the forum to help guide others better. 

Many have added an electric valve from DanMarc.  Search the forums here for some details if you're interested. 

Thank you for putting this together and posting it.

Gil

i will post up clear pics, i have been sick all weak so recording that video last night wore me out.  the turbo valkyrie does not have a petcock anymore, its not needed, although i do have an inline shutoff valve.  i have about 1-2 psi of pressure at all time to the float needles so its critical they function properly...

[98valk]

same principle for the vent hose for the valkyrie if they are not installed on the carb frame correctly.

[BonS]

I've been examining a set of carbs and haven't found any of the floats to be contacting the carb housing before fully seating the float needle.

For those that haven't looked closely at the float needle there is an internal spring and a pin extending from the top of the needle. This sprung pin is what makes first contact with the float as the float rises. As the float continues to rise the float then makes contact with the float needle BODY. (This happens before the spring pin is fully compressed.) The float pushes directly onto the seated float needle and this is what stops the float from rising any further.

To verify this, measure that the float drops farther (and stops when it contacts the car body) after the needle is removed. In all six of my carbs the float drops further after the needle is removed.

There must be a measurable difference between these two measurements: The float height with the float compressed (as if a full fuel level) AND the float height with the float needle removed.

If there is no measurable difference then indeed the float is hitting the body which will not allow the float to bear its force on the float needle as designed. If this is the case then I'd certainly replace the float and needle and remeasure to make sure there is clearance. I measured as little as 0.005" difference but, again, all of my carbs had some clearance.

[moodyvalk]

I think your theory has merit.  I wonder though why Honda would have made the floats not adjustable.  You would think since they offer a specified height that there would be some way of achieving/maintaining that height.

I have never taken a Valkyrie carb apart, but I have had several other cabs opened up and the tab that closes the needle valve is usually a metal tab that can be bent.  The Valkyrie looks all plastic.

Im wondering if a heat gun and careful work could produce a "permanent adjustment" to the plastic where it contacts the float.

I also wonder if somehow we could get an answer from Honda as to how they set the float height at the factory.

actually the none adjustable float is very common on most bikes in the late 90's and up, but yes it does suck they are not adjustable.  and yes the valkyrie floats are all plastic.  

well the heat gun process might be a good idea to try for me, i have a small butane solder torch that would be perfect for that...let me think that over



my theory is that as the float is constantly pushed up by the fuel and against the needle that over time the plastic floats (that would have been designed in the mid 90's) are chemically weakened by the ethanol enriched fuel and warped up by the pressure of floating in the fuel.  
i might order a new float just to prove this wrong or right...although what good would it do putting new floats in that are just going to do the same thing?  

some company needs to make nitrophyl floats for bass arms that are adjustable for the valkyrie

[moodyvalk]

same principle for the vent hose for the valkyrie if they are not installed on the carb frame correctly.

on the turbo valkyrie the float vents go straight up to the plenum and are basically the boost reference for the float bowls

[98valk]

carbs were designed for up to 10% ethanol per owners manual.

[moodyvalk]

What book was that you were referencing?

here is the book...


here is page 1 of 2 for the valkyrie specs...

[moodyvalk]

Hey BonS,
Have you heard of my brother in overland park, ks? His name is Kyle Moody and he lives on metcalf close to 71st...he is also known around the kc area as "Moody's Garage"....he does the most amazing custom leather tooling and metal forging that I have ever seen.  You should stop by his studio at his house sometime and check it out, just look for the old cars in the driveway on metcalf and tell I sent ya...


anyways back to the matter at hand, BonS here is the pics of my floats contacting the body and it is barely touching the needle's pin, and for sure the body of the needle never touches the float

[moodyvalk]

BonS,
can you look at the number stamped in the seat housing.  Mine has a 2.6 stamped on it.  I wonder if Kiehin used different depth float seat housing to adjust the float heights.  maybe there was different housing depth options that could have been pressed in during manufacturing of the carbs?

[moodyvalk]

total pin height


with the pin compressed

[moodyvalk]

how your needle sets in the floats (oem)


small coil spring on top the needle (pretty much replaces the spring loaded needle pin)


coil spring and needle installed into the float


coil spring setup and float installed in the carb

[BonS]

Your picture here does not show the part of the float that bears on the spring pin and pushes the float needle closed.


Rather it is the center bar (circled red) shown here that is the fulcrum.


All of my seat housings are marked 2.6 and I measured a needle to be 0.6235" relaxed and 0.5690" compressed. The compressed measurement is iffy due to the soft tip.

[hal47]

It take very little presure on the needle to stop the gas flow, I think  motorcycle fuel levels are set high to adjust for the cycle leaning in the corners.

[moodyvalk]

Your picture here does not show the part of the float that bears on the spring pin and pushes the float needle closed.


Rather it is the center bar (circled red) shown here that is the fulcrum.


All of my seat housings are marked 2.6 and I measured a needle to be 0.6235" relaxed and 0.5690" compressed. The compressed measurement is iffy due to the soft tip.

i took a picture just like you did but in that pic you really cant tell anything.

what is your measured float height on your carbs?

[moodyvalk]

It take very little presure on the needle to stop the gas flow, I think  motorcycle fuel levels are set high to adjust for the cycle leaning in the corners.

regardless specs are specs, if the spec is .54" and its at .36" that would be out of specification. 

as stated before, the valkyrie's are the only bike that uses this float so is it possible that is a design issue that honda is not aware of yet?  and may never be aware of....

funny thing is my sons 2004 honda xr70 dirtbike which only has about 5 hours of ride time on it (bought it from a man who bought it for his wife and she hardly rode it) is leaking gas out the over flow while riding it.  completely forgot about it till i was in the shower earlier and it popped in my mind.   It also has a plastic float, and i put a brand new needle in it this last spring and it still leak.  Its been parked in the garage out of sight out of mind this summer, but i bet there is something similar this going on in his carburetor.  looks like i will be pulling that carb off and measuring the float level on it as well while we are working on carbs...the float is none adjustable on it as well

[moodyvalk]

Your picture here does not show the part of the float that bears on the spring pin and pushes the float needle closed.


All of my seat housings are marked 2.6 and I measured a needle to be 0.6235" relaxed and 0.5690" compressed. The compressed measurement is iffy due to the soft tip.

i agree the compressed measurement was a pita...

here is my pic but you can't tell by this pic or any angle for that matter the squared off part of body is not touching the middle bridge

[moodyvalk]

BonS,
can you please take a measurement of how high the seat housing protrudes out of the carb body, may just be shadowing but it almost looks like yours sticks out further than mine (no pun intended).  mine is almost flush

[BonS]

These pics might help. The first picture shows the seat housing. I measured several and they're all about 0.011" proud.

The spring loaded pin is at the center of the float needle. The red circle shows the contact patch where the float fulcrum meets the needle after initially contacting the spring pin.


The float fulcrum is pressing on the top land of the float needle.

[moodyvalk]

These pics might help. The first picture shows the seat housing. I measured several and they're all about 0.011" proud.

The spring loaded pin at the center of the float needle. The red circle shows the contact patch where the float fulcrum meets the needle after initially contacting the spring pin.

ok awesome, I will check my protrusion tomorrow if I get time.

and yes sir, I complete understand and understood.  I would almost bet I could run a piece a notebook paper inbetween my needle contact patch and my fulcrum (man that almost sounds dirty, lol)

[BonS]

Your image here seems to show your seat housing is a bit proud of the body.



If the needle body is flush or recessed I can definitely see this as a problem. Earlier I mentioned that there was as little as 0.005" difference between the floats bottoming on the carb body and bottoming out on the float needle. Tolerances are certainly tight here.

[Firefighter]

Back in my day we measured the float height with the float at rest on top of the needle valve, not compressing the needle valve spring. I thought the needle valve spring saved the rubber sealing surfaces and took some of the bounce out of the valve when the float was bouncing around so as not to leak and flood and also not wear out the sealing surfaces. The spring pressure should be enough to seal the valve. Has anyone installed a new float and measured yet? The manual says the float is not adjustable and if out of range to replace the float. Good discussion, Firefighter

[BonS]

Have you heard of my brother in overland park, ks? His name is Kyle Moody and he lives on metcalf close to 71st...he is also known around the kc area as "Moody's Garage"....he does the most amazing custom leather tooling and metal forging that I have ever seen.  You should stop by his studio at his house sometime and check it out, just look for the old cars in the driveway on metcalf and tell I sent ya...

I don't know of him but I'll look him up when I'm over that way.

Back in my day we measured the float height with the float at rest on top of the needle valve, not compressing the needle valve spring. I thought the needle valve spring saved the rubber sealing surfaces and took some of the bounce out of the valve when the float was bouncing around so as not to leak and flood and also not wear out the sealing surfaces. The spring pressure should be enough to seal the valve. Has anyone installed a new float and measured yet? The manual says the float is not adjustable and if out of range to replace the float. Good discussion, Firefighter

I agree with you. I'd certainly replace the float and the needle as well. I just looked up the cost of a float and needle. Yikes $43.00 for a single carb.

FWIW I measured my carb float levels as shown in the manual and they all come in very close to 0.55" which is well within tolerance. Note that the carburetor is held mostly sideways and the float is allowed to just contact the float needle - but not compress it.