Think I have a fix for the hydrolock condition...

[Ricky-D]

The picture in the post by BonS (reply 39) shows the correct procedure for measuring "float level".

Notice there is no pressure forcing the float to a position where it should not be.

Old time carburetors with brass floats and needles that had no rubber tips and internal springs

were measured in the way proposed, namely turn the carburetor upside down will the full

force of the float upon the needle.

This is no longer applicable. The automotive "way" is obsolete and non-workable.

It is crud and/or build-up that causes the possibly hydrolock situation related to the carburetors.

Although this has been a thoughtful discussion, it's a red herring, and has little merit regarding

the issue of hydrolock.

***

[Firefighter]

Yep, That is how I understand it. Not saying I am correct, but that is how I interpreted the manual. My question in the beginning was is anyone having hydrolock without dirty carburetors or bad petcock? Firefighter

[indybobm]

We know that running ethanol in our bikes can cause a lot of problems. Passages can be clogged but it can cause other problems also.

The float valve has to be able to move freely in the seat housing or it can stick and keep the float from working properly.

Here is a video from youtube showing how to use q-tips, a drill, and some polish to clean the crud out of the housing and allow free movement of the float valve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlez_hdoWYk

[98valk]

We know that running ethanol in our bikes can cause a lot of problems. Passages can be clogged but it can cause other problems also.

it is not the ethanol, it is the cheaply made low octane gasoline which is mixed with the ethanol that will start to degrade in 2-4 weeks. the ethanol brings the octane up and helps the gasoline last a little longer.
does one see the scam the oil companies are pulling with the eth? less mpg so we have to buy more, they can use lower grade octane gasoline then without eth, more profit for them.
back to the show.

[Firefighter]

Think it's more the government than the gas company. Don't no if it's ethanol or cheap gas, but gas has less punch than ever. Older engines don't run as good and mileage suffers.  Firefighter

[Ricky-D]

Here's what you need.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=SC

It's worth it to drive some miles just to fill up with this

ETHANOL FREE gasoline.

***

[moodyvalk]

lmfao! someone told me on this forum that the treads will get highjacked lol now its a gasoline tread...

very well, i guess its solved.  i have been measuring float levels wrong my whole life (i was working on motorcycles long before i was a professional automotive technician! drag racing motorcycles and building drag motors for a service manager at a dealership landed my first professional automotive career job)  either way, for those that care, I pulled my sons motorcycle carb off tonight and float measures perfect completely upside down.  the last turbo build i did prior to the valkyrie floats measured perfect upside down. 

is the plunger spring weak causing the plunger to sag with it upside down? very possible. I have been in contact outside of the board with a board member who seems to be very intelligent with carbs and valkyries in general.  I was advised the plunger is sagging and with new needles will bring the floats back up to where they need to be.  And I completely agree that might possibly be the problem but without buying new needles and/or floats its impossible to prove that, which is why i started this tread to get the community involved into coming up with a COMFIRMED fix.  IN MY OPINION, putting new needles or floats in that WILL eventually do exactly the same thing solves NOTHING.

in the future if someone wants to use my idea, i like the coil spring on top of the float because it will function exactly like the oem spring loaded plunger, to help protect the rubber tip as stated in a previous reply.  after installing a 3-4 coils cut from a longer coil spring, measure the float level, cut 1/2 a coil off and remeasure, continue process till the level is within specs....no parts needed so no money spent, if you had the 1/8" coil springs like I did...

there ya go folks, there is your water (free information)...most will throw it out or down the drain just like it was water.  hard to find good credible information that people could have spent alot to figure out for free online, cause it just gets treated like its free water that's why it usually cost for information (and i never tell all my secrets online for that exact reason)...

i appreciate those that got involved with this such as BonS for his pictures and time involved and especially those that have contacted me off the board! Looking forward to meeting one member that is close to me

anyone that would like to contact me regarding this thread it would be best to email me at moodysuzuki@hotmail.com

[indybobm]

lmfao! someone told me on this forum that the treads will get highjacked lol now its a gasoline tread...

Since I am the one who brought up ethanol, I guess I am the one who 'hijacked' the thread.

This thread is about carb float operation and float levels. Sticking float valves can cause improper float operation and float levels.  When solving a problem, you need to look at all contributing aspects of the problem.

[97Valk_CT_Euless]

I certainly appreciate you bringing this to the I'm in the middle of rebuilding a set of carbs and due to your input I noticed some of the needles plungers are weaker than others.  I think this could cause a float level difference and may contribute to at least high float levels.  It may not be as significant on gravity fed bikes as it is on your fuel pump supplied bike but it's worth taking a look at.  The spring idea is interesting since the needles are $12 a pop from Honda. 

[indybobm]

I think it would be interesting for people that are rebuilding their carbs or have an extra set of carbs to measure the float height and post it. It would be interesting to see if most are within spec and just a few really out, or if most of them are out of spec.
I have an extra set. I will measure them and post the results.

[Firefighter]

Moodyvalk, I probably shouldn't say anything but,, You asked for our constructive criticism  when you started this thread, said you would love to hear it. AND you started the ethanol talk in your video, said it might warp the floats.

I appreciate what you have done and all you are doing, and not saying you are wrong but I too have lots of experience, not like you but lots of years twisting wrenches.

 My observation was:

 (1) are we having hydrolock trouble without dirty carbs or bad petcock? and

 (2) the honda repair manual says "with the float valve seated and the float arm JUST touching the valve, measure the the float level". I was in no way questioning your carb. building experience, just pointing out how Honda says to measure Valkyrie float height. Please keep moving forward, I am paying close attention to your "water".  Thanks,  Firefighter

[The emperor has no clothes]

Moodyvalk, I too hope you keep posting. Very informative stuff so far. We do have a tendency to hijack and go off on tangents. Hope that doesn't discourage your postings

[indybobm]

I do want to continue this thread.

I just measured the float level on all six carbs in my spare carb set.
First of all, let me say that it is harder to measure than I first thought.
The Valk Sevice manual does say to measure the float level with the carb in a certain procedure.
I found that ANY float weight on the valve changes the measurement.

The first time I measured the floats, I had the carb bank upside down laying on the bench.
All floats were contacting the top of the carb body.
Here are the readings that I got.

1    .375      2    .366
3    .369      4    .386
5    .369      6    .386

Then I propped the carb bank up and measured at the angle shown in the manual.

1    .549      2    .555
3    .554      4    .558
5    .545      6    .551  

My spare carb bank is off of a 98 Tourer. I do believe that the springs in the float valves might be weak, I do not know.

Also, since the measurements were basically in spec measured  in the way specified in the manual, I do not think that my floats are warped.

I tried to measure as accurately as I could. Also, all of my floats were empty, nothing in them.

[BonS]

The first time I measured the floats, I had the carb bank upside down laying on the bench.
All floats were contacting the top of the carb body.

Did you measure both with the float needle in place and then without? That's the only way I can think of that guarantees the float is touching the carb body. I found a difference in all my measurements using this method. I then looked closely and found that the float wasn't touching the carb body but rather it was touching the float needle body.

[indybobm]

The first time I measured the floats, I had the carb bank upside down laying on the bench.
All floats were contacting the top of the carb body.

Did you measure both with the float needle in place and then without? That's the only way I can think of that guarantees the float is touching the carb body. I found a difference in all my measurements using this method. I then looked closely and found that the float wasn't touching the carb body but rather it was touching the float needle body.

I went back and checked, measuring with and without the float needle.

The float was hitting the carb body on 4 of 6 carbs WITH the float needle in.
The other 2 were within a couple of thousands of hitting.

This might be attributed to worn tip on the float needle although all of my float needles measured very close to .620. The hole in the float for the hinge pin is a pretty sloppy fit.

This would have to be compared with a low mileage carb, a new float and new float needle to see if wear is a factor.

After all of this measuring I am going to un-cross my eyes and have a beer.

[HayHauler]

I, for one appreciate this thread.  I think it shines a light on a previously undetermined problem.  We all thought that our problems came from letting our bikes sit and getting gum/varnish in places that can cause fuel to flow when it should not. 
Again, thanks for all of the info in this thread.  I have learned from it. 

Hay
Jimmyt

[gordonv]

I like this thread more because it is different from all the others on Hydro Lock. Allowing a nice and pleasant discussion on the subject, no one bashing another's opinion and seems to be well thought out and knowledgeable. I'm learning something new.

With my only experience being on overhauling VW carbs, and never seeing a reason to actually do that, I have no reason to remove and open up a set of carbs off my MC.

[BonS]

I sure don't know if Dustin aka MoodyValk will be coming back to this conversation but I think it's worth adding the last bit of information that I have to share. I measured my float needles and also the clearance between the float and the carburetor body when the bowl is full. I wanted to be sure that there was clearance and that the float would not "top out" on the carburetor body before it had fully seated the needle.

My measurements for clearance between the float and car body are:
#1 0.009"
#2 0.004"
#3 0.003"
#4 0.024"
#5 0.008"
#6 0.0065"
Given the above clearances you can see that my carburetor floats always fully depress the float needle and cannot bottom out on the carburetor body. Also you can see that it won't take much wear of the needle or float pin before there can be interference.

My measurements for the needle length are very consistent from carb to carb but there is a thousandths or two of tolerance here:
#1 0.625"
#2 0.623"
#3 0.625"
#4 0.623"
#5 0.625"
#6 0.624"

MoodyValk's measurement of his needle was 0.620" and this concerns me. If his float needles are 5 thou short he could very well have interference and not seal his bowl properly as he described.

Finally, I measured the float needles spring force when half way depressed. They were all about 30 grams which is almost exactly 1 ounce.

All said, my carburetors haven't caused hydro-lock so I'm not surprised to see at least minimal clearances where they need to be. An adjustable float tang would certainly be difficult to tweak with tolerances this tight. FWIW these carbs came of a '99 Interstate with 50,000 on the clock.

[Skinhead]

My concern with setting the float level too high (adding coil springs?) would be fuel starvation under load.  You could go too far the other way.  Even adding a fuel filter to these gravity systems is sometimes problematic.

[moodyvalk]

Any know Bob Smith out of Tulsa, Ok?  If you don't, you should!  Great guy and he seriously knows his Valkyrie stuff without a doubt.  Money well spent with this guy if you ever need the work...

We have been in contact off the bored alot of this topic and hotrod'n in general.  I'm hoping one of these days we can but his porting skills and my turbo skills together and make one bad to the bone Valkyrie.
Seeing how I know personal don't own a Valkyrie, I'm thinking that could be my Valkyrie in the future hehehe...

here is one of the emails that sent to Bob recently...

So tonight after the family went to bed, I stayed up to go out and work on the Valkyrie carbs for the first time since the last time we talked.  I was able to confirm with 110% confidence that you were/are 110% correct about the needle plunger is sagging.  That is definitely the cause of the failing needle/seat.  Now with that said, I do not have a new needle to compare to these old stockers, but I am assuming the new needle plunger spring is stiffer providing more positive pressure on the needle to the seat...

I am essentially doing the same thing as replacing the needles when I install the, cut to proper length, coil spring inbetween the needle and the float.  The floats are now at the proper level, whether the carbs are sideways or upside down.  The coil spring basically is replacing the plunger.

I am not looking for anyone's approval and I do not in any way shape or form intent for this to come off as my being/sounding like a d$ck. (Its late and I may not be thinking clearly at the time of this email) This coil spring mod may work on normally aspirated engine but may not be necessary due to just simply replacing the needles because they could give a long term solution at a relatively inexpensive cost.  I need/needed a (in my mind) confirmed fix that would last as long as possible under the pressurized fuel system that I am using on the Turbo Valkyrie.

Anyways, Bob, my words don't do justice for showing the gratitude and respect that I have for you taking your time to contact me and offering your knowledge and advice.  Please never hesitate call or email if there is anything that I can do to help you in the future.  I'm thinking we need to go for a ride in the spring cause I need to put some miles on the Turbo Valkyrie before I take it home again.  (still got to install a temp gauge and oil pressure gauge, that's the main reason he wanted me to bring it back)

p.s. I'm thinking about posting most of this email on my Hydro-lock thread and mentioning your name and giving you credit, if that's alright with you...I still haven't looked at that thread again since my last post. It may not even be worth posting on it again. Let me know your opinion, please...

Thanks again,
Dustin Moody

My coil spring idea may not be necessary on a normally aspirated, but I feel it will last longer than replacement needs.  Replacement needles should without a doubt be installed at the very least anytime the carbs are off the bike, the plunger should be stiffer.  

It would be interesting for someone to measure the float height with the carbs upside down with brand new needles.  This is the only bike I have worked on that the needle plunger sags with the carbs upside down, seems awful ironic that the valk's also have a notorious hydrolocking issue...

[Attic Rat]

Thanks Dustin for the kind words. I am looking forward to combining your turbo work with my performance work. I think we might have something amazing. It will be interesting to see what the out come will be.

Regards,

Bob

[dago mooserider]

I know Bob, I hauled my valk all the way from san diego to tulsa so he could work on it. I've been meaning to post up a video on u tube of my valk hitting 140 mph. So people dont think i'm full of it.  She runs GOOD. I was wondering if the slight compression increase on attic rat's performance work would not play well with a turbo. Best i can get around here is 91 octane. I would love to be the first guinea pig for a moody-rat bike 

[Hook#3287]

My coil spring idea may not be necessary on a normally aspirated, but I feel it will last longer than replacement needs.  Replacement needles should without a doubt be installed at the very least anytime the carbs are off the bike, the plunger should be stiffer. 

I'm doing my best to understand all that is going on in the post, with some degree of success.

I understand what a needle jet is, but just wanted to ask if that it's #3 that you suggest be replaced whenever the carbs are out?   Are there aftermarket needles that can, or should, be used?

Thanks

[BonS]

He's referring to #20 the float valve.

[Hook#3287]

He's referring to #20 the float valve.

Well, that's what I thought, but the term "Needle" threw me.

[98valk]

used for many honda bikes

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-16155-413-751.html

K&L has them for less $

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313&_nkw=HP-16155-413-751&_sacat=0

has dimensional pic
http://www.ebay.com/itm/83-HONDA-CB1000C-CUSTOM-NEW-K-L-CARBURETOR-CARB-FLOAT-NEEDLE-18-8955-/400521968151?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5d40f83a17&vxp=mtr

[BonS]

An interesting source of information for Honda carburetor info is Randakks Cycle Shakk. Rebuilding Honda carbs and recommending carburetor rebuilders is their forte. I enjoy reading their tech blogs. http://randakks.com/

This link talks about aftermarket float valves and is good info if you're considering replacing parts.
http://www.randakksblog.com/more-problems-with-aftermarket-float-valves/

this link is for their tech blogs in general.
http://www.randakksblog.com/site-map/

[moodyvalk]

I know Bob, I hauled my valk all the way from san diego to tulsa so he could work on it. I've been meaning to post up a video on u tube of my valk hitting 140 mph. So people dont think i'm full of it.  She runs GOOD. I was wondering if the slight compression increase on attic rat's performance work would not play well with a turbo. Best i can get around here is 91 octane. I would love to be the first guinea pig for a moody-rat bike 

Cometic gaskets make the best MLS head gasket in the world if you as my opinion. They can make custom head gaskets to any thickness which would solve the base compression issue...many options honestly.  We could make it happen!

[Attic Rat]

Dustin I could just port another set of heads without milling them. That would put Matt back to stock compression with a set of ported and polished heads. The rest of the performance work would work just fine with the turbo then.

[moodyvalk]

Dustin I could just port another set of heads without milling them. That would put Matt back to stock compression with a set of ported and polished heads. The rest of the performance work would work just fine with the turbo then.

Perfect! 

[Tfrank59]

I think your theory has merit.  I wonder though why Honda would have made the floats not adjustable.  You would think since they offer a specified height that there would be some way of achieving/maintaining that height.

I have never taken a Valkyrie carb apart, but I have had several other cabs opened up and the tab that closes the needle valve is usually a metal tab that can be bent.  The Valkyrie looks all plastic.

Im wondering if a heat gun and careful work could produce a "permanent adjustment" to the plastic where it contacts the float.

I also wonder if somehow we could get an answer from Honda as to how they set the float height at the factory.

I automatically turn my fuel petcock off as soon as I turn the key off. But every other bike – every other motor for that matter – I've owned that was not fuel injected I believe the float valve would seat fully and cut off the flow of fuel, provided it's not obstructed by something or sticking.  Dustin's video, if representative of the floats in all Valkyries, is a big revelation in that not only are they not adjustable, they don't do the job of closing off fuel flowing into the float bowls when they are full.  To me that says that any time a person leaves the gas petcock open, that allows fuel to keep on flowing by gravity until it hits reserve or fills up the entire engine.  So that brings up another question – are Dustin's floats just warped or something or again are they the way Honda designed them to be – not able to actually close off the flow of fuel.  Since I have left the fuel petcock open on occasion, at least for an hour maybe, and my bike did not flood, I have to assume that my float valves do cut off the flow of fuel into the float bowl.  Or am I missing something?

[moodyvalk]

I think your theory has merit.  I wonder though why Honda would have made the floats not adjustable.  You would think since they offer a specified height that there would be some way of achieving/maintaining that height.

I have never taken a Valkyrie carb apart, but I have had several other cabs opened up and the tab that closes the needle valve is usually a metal tab that can be bent.  The Valkyrie looks all plastic.

Im wondering if a heat gun and careful work could produce a "permanent adjustment" to the plastic where it contacts the float.

I also wonder if somehow we could get an answer from Honda as to how they set the float height at the factory.

I automatically turn my fuel petcock off as soon as I turn the key off. But every other bike – every other motor for that matter – I've owned that was not fuel injected I believe the float valve would seat fully and cut off the flow of fuel, provided it's not obstructed by something or sticking.  Dustin's video, if representative of the floats in all Valkyries, is a big revelation in that not only are they not adjustable, they don't do the job of closing off fuel flowing into the float bowls when they are full.  To me that says that any time a person leaves the gas petcock open, that allows fuel to keep on flowing by gravity until it hits reserve or fills up the entire engine.  So that brings up another question – are Dustin's floats just warped or something or again are they the way Honda designed them to be – not able to actually close off the flow of fuel.  Since I have left the fuel petcock open on occasion, at least for an hour maybe, and my bike did not flood, I have to assume that my float valves do cut off the flow of fuel into the float bowl.  Or am I missing something?

yes in the video you missed the float levels being way off.  I was making an assumption in the video that it might be warped floats since ethanol enriched fuel was not around (i think) in the mid 90's when this bike was a honda concept. 

Now I do believe that the needle valve's center spring loaded plunger is sagging with age or more likely inferior design.  whether measureing the float level sideways or upside down the measurement should pretty much the same...

it could be possible, since this same needle valve is used in so many other bike and they don't seem to have the same issue, that when the plunger sags the design of the carb bodies dont allow much room for error and will hit the carb body prior to the needle valve applying enough pressure to stop fuel flow. 

[Hook#3287]

Would a slightly longer float valve work?

Closing off the gas flow sooner?

[98valk]

Honda tunes a high % of their bikes with none adjustable floats. lots of dyno work needed to change float level to something not originally specified by any manufacturer, unless info is provided in a jet kit.

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_float_height_adj_procedure.html

Why adjust the float height?

Changing the float height changes the level of the fuel in the float bowl. The fuel height adjusts the full throttle, 2k-3k rpm and part throttle cruise, as in cruising around town, trying to be quiet... To give a scale of change, if the bike runs well when cold, but gets a bit sloppy when fully warmed up, lower the fuel level 1mm (i.e. go from 15mm to 16mm float height - remember the float measurement is "backwards").

When do I adjust the float height?

When installing a Carb Recalibration Kit tm.
When rebuilding carbs.
To adjust low rpm / part throttle operation that isn't pilot jet, fuel screw or needle height related.
When a bike starts running rich at  low rpm after a mishap or
After an overwhelming gravity equalization process occurs.


http://www.factorypro.com/tech/carbtun.html

3. Then, adjust the BEST Float Height for BEST FULL THROTTLE / LOW rpm (many Honda's excluded because floats are not adjustable) -
    You should be able to apply FULL THROTTLE at LOW RPM in TOP gear without ANY misfire of bogging or stumble.......

If you follow that order, you will have:
    1. Best topend.
    2. Best midrange.
    3. Best low rpm power.

Then - all you have left is dialing in the pilot circuit - i.e. mixture screw and pilot jet size - That's IT - Don't tweak needle heights and throw away full throttle midrange to try to fix a cruise issue!!! (Unless you want to!)

If you reach an impasse in steps 1,2 and 3 in the FULL THROTTLE tuning, STOP!!!!! and call TECH SUPPORT!!!

415 491-5920 and 800 869-0497, ask for TECH SUPPORT -

Cheers!

Marc

[moodyvalk]

Would a slightly longer float valve work?

Closing off the gas flow sooner?

not really, cause this would lower the fuel level in float bowl too much. I'm not changing the factory float bowl fuel levels, I''m was wanting to get them back to factory specs...

with the "Turbo Valkyrie's" pressurized fuel system I could adjust base fuel pressure up to to overcome a lower fuel level but on a stock gravity feed system you really need to keep the float levels within factory specs. 

[Shakie NC]

I have always known the needle and seat is the problem , if you cant stop the fuel flow then it has no other place to go but to the engine. Q, where and what type of springs did you use. great video by the way.

[moodyvalk]

I have always known the needle and seat is the problem , if you cant stop the fuel flow then it has no other place to go but to the engine. Q, where and what type of springs did you use. great video by the way.

honestly the springs came out of a universal coil spring box that my pops gave me and I have no clue where or when he got them....they were 1/8" in diameter if I remember correctly, looked very similar to the coil spring out of a "clicker" ink pen but not as stiff.....

my best and most economical advise on a normal valkyrie would be to replace the stock needles with K&L needles for like $25ish....

[Ricky-D]

Actually the most economical thing would be to leave them alone.

***

[Attic Rat]

I have been replacing the float valves now on almost every carb set that I rebuild because I am finding that the spring for the pin in the float valve has started to sag causing the float level to change. I suggest that it is cheap insurance to change them out when ever you do a carb rebuild.

[Ricky-D]

I couldn't agree more, with you.  I think that

would be a standard practice realizing that you

work on bikes for a living. Warranty would demand

such actions.

However, in the area of rebuilding carburetors, like

the Valkyrie carburetors, I think, is not ever called

for, lacking a clear indication of a problem.  Cleaning

is the main action regarding these carburetors since

there is, for practical purposes, no wear parts in the

carburetors. 

***