i hope this is not a sign of things to come

[DIGGER]

Unions essentially hold up the company, and by association the customers, by a threat a lot like the point of a gun.  Whether it's good depends largely upon the side of the gun on which you're standing.

Honestly companies (corporations) left unopposed will do the same thing.  If either unions or employing corporations get too strong almost everyone else loses.  If unions went away tomorrow we would need them back in two days.  If unions get too strong unrestricted we'll need them to be bridled back pretty quickly.

Unions and corporations are exactly the same in intent.  The only difference between them is in whom it is they represent.  They are each very good for whomever is on the inside at the expense of whomever is on the outside.   

Very well put.....I like that analogy.    In times of lots of work the union negotiations go better for the union members.   In times of no work the union negotiations go better for the companies.   However, once in the late 80's the IBEW Local 716 in Houston voted for a 20 percent pay cut because the contractors were crying that they were losing money and couldn't get any jobs because our payscale was too high.  If we would lower our pay scale they could bid lower and get more work and put more people back to work (times were really togh back then after the oil bust and we had a lot of out of work electricians.....a lot of out of work electricians.    )   I voted to take the pay cut.  NEVER AGAIN.....the contractors didn't lower their bid rate 1 dime.....they got no more work than usual.....they just made more money on the jobs they had going.   Never again will I vote for a pay cut under any circumstances.

[Jess Tolbirt]

I have never...ever..heard of a non union electrician getting a pension.  Virtually every non union worker 's insurance he has to pay most of it and the employer kicks in a little.  Some get a 401K...that is kept by the electrical employer and have heard of cases where the money got spent before the worker got it.  Lets don't even talk about safe work practices.....no comparison between Union and non union.    If they made being in the union optional.....there would be no union.   there are people out there that will work for no benefits. 

OK... I'll give you the pension...

My insurance is 90% payed by my employer.  VERY good insurance.

My 401K is matched at 4% and has thus far only increased (even in a bad economy). I get a quarterly report along with a few IRA accounts I have.

My company has never had a death (30+ years in operation in the oil field)...
only 2 major injuries (a few missing teeth from a stray high pressure hose and a broken ankle from someone walking in an area he shouldn't have been)...
and thus far only a few minor injuries (can be counted on one hand)...
ALL medical bills were paid by the company AND each person was paid full salary for ALL work days missed due to the injury. 

Does that make my company the exception???  Cause I know of about 20 other local companies that have similar benefits without the help of unions. 

I've worked in Union shops and Non-Union shops. I've found one of the biggest misconceptions from non-Union employees is that their wages and benefits are close or comparable to union and why should they belong and pay dues. What they don't grasp is they are riding on the coat tails of Union members who fought for those wages and benefits. Companies don't give out raises and benefits out of the goodness in their hearts.

I just love it when I'm talking with a non union electrician and the first thing they throw out there is "I don't have to pay any union dues."    I have to keep from laughing.    My answer to them is "Well, I payed about $4000 in union dues last year.....but the average union electrician makes about $20,000 a yr more than you.....do the math.

Digger, i am a non union electrician,, would you like to compare wages and benefits?,, i was a union electrician,,still have the card in my pocket,,but when all the contractors here in Nashville except for 5 of them got out of local 429 we knew something was up,, like said before i will give you the pension but for the last 10 years with the company i am with i get paid vacation, paid holidays, paid sick days and paid personal days.. my insurance is paid by the company 100% and they even throw a thousand dollars in my HSA account every year to off set the deductible, i have gotten a 2 dollar an hour raise every year for the last 4 years, i have a little money in the bank and life is good,,,the 401 k is on us, no matching here,,we get paid for all unsued paid time off and a bonus at the end of the year..
the union was good to me but you have to work so many hours a month to get insurance and the way jobs were going i never had the insurance here in 429..lots of short calls and long calls were and are far and few between,,,

[DIGGER]

I have never...ever..heard of a non union electrician getting a pension.  Virtually every non union worker 's insurance he has to pay most of it and the employer kicks in a little.  Some get a 401K...that is kept by the electrical employer and have heard of cases where the money got spent before the worker got it.  Lets don't even talk about safe work practices.....no comparison between Union and non union.    If they made being in the union optional.....there would be no union.   there are people out there that will work for no benefits. 

OK... I'll give you the pension...

My insurance is 90% payed by my employer.  VERY good insurance.

My 401K is matched at 4% and has thus far only increased (even in a bad economy). I get a quarterly report along with a few IRA accounts I have.

My company has never had a death (30+ years in operation in the oil field)...
only 2 major injuries (a few missing teeth from a stray high pressure hose and a broken ankle from someone walking in an area he shouldn't have been)...
and thus far only a few minor injuries (can be counted on one hand)...
ALL medical bills were paid by the company AND each person was paid full salary for ALL work days missed due to the injury. 

Does that make my company the exception???  Cause I know of about 20 other local companies that have similar benefits without the help of unions. 

I've worked in Union shops and Non-Union shops. I've found one of the biggest misconceptions from non-Union employees is that their wages and benefits are close or comparable to union and why should they belong and pay dues. What they don't grasp is they are riding on the coat tails of Union members who fought for those wages and benefits. Companies don't give out raises and benefits out of the goodness in their hearts.

I just love it when I'm talking with a non union electrician and the first thing they throw out there is "I don't have to pay any union dues."    I have to keep from laughing.    My answer to them is "Well, I payed about $4000 in union dues last year.....but the average union electrician makes about $20,000 a yr more than you.....do the math.

Digger, i am a non union electrician,, would you like to compare wages and benefits?,, i was a union electrician,,still have the card in my pocket,,but when all the contractors here in Nashville except for 5 of them got out of local 429 we knew something was up,, like said before i will give you the pension but for the last 10 years with the company i am with i get paid vacation, paid holidays, paid sick days and paid personal days.. my insurance is paid by the company 100% and they even throw a thousand dollars in my HSA account every year to off set the deductible, i have gotten a 2 dollar an hour raise every year for the last 4 years, i have a little money in the bank and life is good,,,the 401 k is on us, no matching here,,we get paid for all unsued paid time off and a bonus at the end of the year..
the union was good to me but you have to work so many hours a month to get insurance and the way jobs were going i never had the insurance here in 429..lots of short calls and long calls were and are far and few between,,,

SOUNDS LIKE YOU GOT A REAL SWEET DEAL....i'D STICK WITH IT.

[MP]

The difference is.....these are VOLUNTARY associations. I have no problem with voluntary unions. I do have a problem when the union FORCES you to join, or your family starves.

I have never...ever..heard of a non union electrician getting a pension.  Virtually every non union worker 's insurance he has to pay most of it and the employer kicks in a little.  Some get a 401K...that is kept by the electrical employer and have heard of cases where the money got spent before the worker got it.  Lets don't even talk about safe work practices.....no comparison between Union and non union.    If they made being in the union optional.....there would be no union.   there are people out there that will work for no benefits. 

OK... I'll give you the pension...

My insurance is 90% payed by my employer.  VERY good insurance.

My 401K is matched at 4% and has thus far only increased (even in a bad economy). I get a quarterly report along with a few IRA accounts I have.

My company has never had a death (30+ years in operation in the oil field)...
only 2 major injuries (a few missing teeth from a stray high pressure hose and a broken ankle from someone walking in an area he shouldn't have been)...
and thus far only a few minor injuries (can be counted on one hand)...
ALL medical bills were paid by the company AND each person was paid full salary for ALL work days missed due to the injury. 

Does that make my company the exception???  Cause I know of about 20 other local companies that have similar benefits without the help of unions. 

sounds like a really good company to work for.   man....jjust think what you guys could have if you went union.....ha.   No, really, why do you guys have such a hate for unions?  Definition of a union is a group of people with a common goal working together to advance theirselves as much as possible.  In thhe civil war the union was a group of states that worked together to reach their goal.   why do firefighters and LEO's have unions?   They are groups of people working together to advance theirselves as much as possible.   If you go to church you are in a union.   People in a church are a group of people working together  to advance their religous beliefs....they elect pastors and clergymen to be their spokesmen.....and yes you have to pay dues there too.    Lawyers belong to a Bar association (union), realestate people have to belong to the RealEstate Commission (union).
Pilots have to belong to the Pilots Association (Union).....etc..etc.  Nearly everyone belongs to a union of some kind. 

also, I get the feeling you guys think that unions force themselves on their employers.   In the IBEW the contractor employers don't HAVE to hire union employees......they want to.   They don't HAVE to sign a contract with the IBEW...they want to.  They can bid better and easier if they know the wage rate they have to pay up front, they don't have to waste time negotiating with each and every emploee over wages and benefits.....they know up front what the deal is.     They can hire employees when they need them and lay off employees when the job is over.  No having to try to find work for them and pay them in the off times.        My son went through the Pipefitters Union School Local 211.   5 yrs later he left the union and opened his own non union air conditioning company.   His company has gotten bigger now after 5 yrs .  As the type of jobs he has been getting gets larger and larger and as he needs more and more skilled men...He got tired of hiring and firing unskilled people who claimed they knew ac work and went down and signed a contract with Pipefitters Local 211 in Houston and for the last year it has worked out great for him.   When he gets large jobs now he can  immediately hire as many skilled ac men as is needed and when the job is over he can let them go..it's working out great for him and the union.   

Nearly all of you belong to a Union of some kind...even thoght it's not called a union.  Nothing wrong with a group of people banding together to advance their pay scales.

[cookiedough]

I've seen good and bad sides of unions.  Overall,  Union workers are harder to get fired once in even if a worthless employee.  Overall,  Union workers get better overall benefits vs. non-union workers.

Anyways,  back on topic:  I knew I should have taken a pic of 1.889 was cheapest I seen but didn't last long only a week or two under 2 bucks.  Now, back up to 2.129, still not complaining since 30 bucks for a fillup is better than 60. 

I just hope it stays under say 2.50 per gallon for a very long time to come, but highly doubt it.

[therapist]

The best explanation of lower gas prices I heard, was that opening up the taps, increasing supply, was OPEC's response to the US drilling for more oil in country. They know if it gets cheap, it is not financially viable for such efforts to continue...especially the oil sands and fracking stuff. I would be willing to bet, there is a behind the scenes deal taking place between the major oil companies and OPEC to reverse this ploy. We will probably never know what, exactly, is taking place. But, I fear, the cheap gas party is about to be over. I sure wish I could have found a used, old tanker truck...would have filled it and kept it in my backyard (is that legal?).   

[Xtracho]

What is cheap gas to everyone? Is it the pump price you pay right now? Regardless of how much this country continues to suck off the tit of OPEC? Or would it be a price that sustains domestic exploration & production....as well as hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country?

therapist has it right. Simple economic laws as is with virtually any commodity. Supply vs. Demand. The Saudis can pull a barrel of oil out of the ground for about $12/barrel. Here in the states it's around 3X that much....even more with oil sands and fracking.

OPEC glutted the market purposely to hogtie domestic production by driving the per barrel price below what it costs to bring a barrel of domestic crude to market. They aren't stupid. In N. Dakota alone, oil sands/fracking production went from 100K/barrel/year...to over 1,000,000/barrels/year.

Even at present per barrel prices OPEC is reaping a profit while domestic production, along with the jobs it provides, has ground to a virtual halt. And many of those OPEC member countries have been linked to harboring and financing terrorist groups.

For those that hate "Big Oil"...that's fine. Their choice. But let's not be hypocritical about it. Stop driving altogether, stop buying groceries for the items in your pantry were delivered by trucks fueled with diesel, don't even ride your bicycle for the tires on it were produced with petroleum products, and get off your computers for the plastic components were also derived from petroleum.

[CajunRider]

 No, really, why do you guys have such a hate for unions?  Definition of a union is a group of people with a common goal working together to advance theirselves as much as possible. 

The concept started as a good thing.  But quality of jobs have gone so far up, they aren't needed any more.  But, none of the union leaders want to lose their power and pay, so they keep pushing for more.  The unions I've dealt with have nothing to do with what unions were started for.   

On the other hand, I don't ONLY blame the unions.  The companies they work for actually sign those completely ridiculous contracts. 

Company is going bankrupt...
Union doesn't care and pushes for raises across the board plus more benefits...
Company agrees and signs contract with union...
Company goes farther in the hole...
Next up????  Gov. steps in to bail out the company.

Meanwhile, I work years without a raise due to economy lull. 
Everyone at my company works like mad to turn things around. 
Company comes out on top without Gov. help and everyone benefits with profit sharing to make up for the missed raises. 
Next up???  Gov. raises taxes on company.  "Hey guys, thanks for the hard work!"

Bass Ackwards B.S.