|
T.P.
|
 |
« on: August 27, 2015, 06:18:38 PM » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Well you can call me T, or you can call me P, or you can call me T.P. but you doesn't hasta call me Toilet Paper"
|
|
|
|
Ramie
|
|
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2015, 07:16:34 PM » |
|
I can't believe that will stand, hopefully someone will appeal the ruling.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
“I am not a courageous person by nature. I have simply discovered that, at certain key moments in this life, you must find courage in yourself, in order to move forward and live. It is like a muscle and it must be exercised, first a little, and then more and more. A deep breath and a leap.”
|
|
|
|
WilliamRS
|
|
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2015, 05:20:06 AM » |
|
I have always thought of our bill of rights as applying to all humans.
if I have the right to self defense, so does the human standing next to me.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Valkorado
Member
Posts: 10514
VRCC DS 0242
Gunnison, Colorado (7,703') Here there be twisties.
|
|
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2015, 06:05:46 AM » |
|
Our Bill of Rights applies to American Citizens. . It should not be confused with the 2nd Amendment to (our) Constitution, which also applies to American Citizens.
If I travel to Mexico they don't give a hoot about my American rights.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 06:12:22 AM by Valkorado »
|
Logged
|
Have you ever noticed when you're feeling really good, there's always a pigeon that'll come sh!t on your hood? - John Prine 97 Tourer "Silver Bullet" 01 Interstate "Ruby"  |
|
|
|
G-Man
|
|
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2015, 07:36:20 AM » |
|
I have always thought of our bill of rights as applying to all humans.
if I have the right to self defense, so does the human standing next to me.
It is the collective gov't of the united states that protects those rights for its citizens, not the rest of the world, nor should it cover those that are here illegally. We've denied asylum, so I guess it doesn't cover everyone. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
WilliamRS
|
|
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2015, 10:37:02 AM » |
|
I have always thought of our bill of rights as applying to all humans.
if I have the right to self defense, so does the human standing next to me.
It is the collective gov't of the united states that protects those rights for its citizens, not the rest of the world, nor should it cover those that are here illegally. We've denied asylum, so I guess it doesn't cover everyone. I happen to believe that our founding documents set a moral bar that shouldn't just apply to those of us who happen to be citizens. how about this other right granted to me... I get due process and protection from police 'exuberance' (we did away with the rubber hose style of integragation) regardless of the legal status of another person, they also should get due process. to argue otherwise, suggests that while the police are prohibitted from beating the sh*t out of me, they have no such restraints when it comes to someone who is not a citizen. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Valkorado
Member
Posts: 10514
VRCC DS 0242
Gunnison, Colorado (7,703') Here there be twisties.
|
|
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2015, 11:01:14 AM » |
|
I happen to believe that our founding documents set a moral bar that shouldn't just apply to those of us who happen to be citizens. how about this other right granted to me... I get due process and protection from police 'exuberance' (we did away with the rubber hose style of integragation) regardless of the legal status of another person, they also should get due process. to argue otherwise, suggests that while the police are prohibitted from beating the sh*t out of me, they have no such restraints when it comes to someone who is not a citizen.
If you illegally enter another country, you have no reason to believe you have any government granted rights at all. Laws vary from country to country, but some will not only beat the sh*t out of you, they will kill you on the spot -- due process be cursed. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Have you ever noticed when you're feeling really good, there's always a pigeon that'll come sh!t on your hood? - John Prine 97 Tourer "Silver Bullet" 01 Interstate "Ruby" |
|
|
|
Moonshot_1
|
|
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2015, 11:28:58 AM » |
|
I'll join in...
The Bill of Rights does not bestow rights upon its citizens. It is designed to prohibit the government from infringing on specific rights you already have. Also known as God given rights and we certainly don't want to make God mad by taking rights away. But I digress...
Does this mean that the government may infringe on such rights if you are here illegally? Well, no. At least I don't believe so. I don't think the government should be able to imprison a person here illegally for giving a speech in a park. Jail them for being here illegally, sure, but not for speaking.
The government is not allowed to have the constitutional authority to infringe on these specific rights in the first place. To allow it through a back door of illegal immigration would be the first chink in our Constitutional Armour that protects us from the government.
We don't have "Legal" or "Illegal" tattooed on our forehead for the government to see. If we make laws infringing on a person's God given, Constitutionally Protected right because they are of an illegal status, you give the government the right to infringe on all so they can find the Illegal.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Mike Luken
Cherokee, Ia.
Former Iowa Patriot Guard Ride Captain
|
|
|
Willow
Administrator
Member
Posts: 16770
Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP
Olathe, KS
|
|
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2015, 11:59:59 AM » |
|
And herein lies the issue: The founding fathers (surely also representing the founding mothers  ) addressed rights they began with " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ..." Notice the reference to ALL men (men in the rather generic sense). Today we are rolling in a different direction. People begin to talk about the "rights" that are "granted" by governments. The founding fathers had no concept of a government granting rights but of the responsibility of the government to protect rights. I don't greatly disagree with what the court said although it did as they moved to the second portion appear to be self contradicting. It's a complicated world in which we live. I wonder if it really has to be. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 12:01:44 PM by Willow »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
BF
|
|
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2015, 12:02:13 PM » |
|
I have always thought of our bill of rights as applying to all
I happen to believe
As much as you are entitled to them, your thoughts and beliefs are wrong. And another one goes on the ignore list. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I can't help about the shape I'm in I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin But don't ask me what I think of you I might not give the answer that you want me to  |
|
|
Valkorado
Member
Posts: 10514
VRCC DS 0242
Gunnison, Colorado (7,703') Here there be twisties.
|
|
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2015, 12:32:20 PM » |
|
If God is the grantor of all human rights people should be free to do virtually anything that doesn't violate His laws, regardless of any government's statutes. That would include crossing borders illegally.
Yes, it's more complicated than that.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Have you ever noticed when you're feeling really good, there's always a pigeon that'll come sh!t on your hood? - John Prine 97 Tourer "Silver Bullet" 01 Interstate "Ruby" |
|
|
|
czuch
|
|
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 12:34:23 PM » |
|
Roman rules for citizenship. You is, or you isnt.
The right to decent treatment under arrest, sure, thats being civilized.
If you act like a real criminal, then the rubber hose is a good idea no matter what.
Illegal is illegal from the first step.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Aot of guys with burn marks,gnarly scars and funny twitches ask why I spend so much on safety gear
|
|
|
Willow
Administrator
Member
Posts: 16770
Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP
Olathe, KS
|
|
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 12:54:26 PM » |
|
If God is the grantor of all human rights people should be free to do virtually anything that doesn't violate His laws, regardless of any government's statutes. That would include crossing borders illegally.
Yes, it's more complicated than that.
Wow! That's too much to be even called a jump of logic. You'll have to take that up with the founding fathers. I can't make any sense of it. As to crossing borders illegally I guess you missed the portion about obeying the laws of governments (kings). Do let me know if you can figure out how the founding fathers would have dealt with your assumption. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Wizzard
Member
Posts: 4043
Bald River Falls
Valparaiso IN
|
|
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2015, 01:07:16 PM » |
|
Romans 13: 1-4 refers to obeying the laws of the land. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
 VRCC # 24157 |
|
|
Valkorado
Member
Posts: 10514
VRCC DS 0242
Gunnison, Colorado (7,703') Here there be twisties.
|
|
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2015, 03:01:42 PM » |
|
I don't know how the founding fathers would have dealt with my assumption.
I do agree they considered our government's paramount responsibility to protect our country, our borders and yes our rights. I'm guessing they would have considered a lack of enforceable borders a threat to our rights, be them God given or otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Have you ever noticed when you're feeling really good, there's always a pigeon that'll come sh!t on your hood? - John Prine 97 Tourer "Silver Bullet" 01 Interstate "Ruby" |
|
|
|
The emperor has no clothes
|
|
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2015, 03:29:30 PM » |
|
I have always thought of our bill of rights as applying to all
I happen to believe
As much as you are entitled to them, your thoughts and beliefs are wrong. And another one goes on the ignore list. WTF how can he go on your list if he's already on it ? Do some of us get double and triple blackballed ?  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
WilliamRS
|
|
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2015, 07:09:42 PM » |
|
I'll join in...
The Bill of Rights does not bestow rights upon its citizens. It is designed to prohibit the government from infringing on specific rights you already have.
yes. that is what I meant... my post was poorly worded by using the word 'granted' . |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
WilliamRS
|
|
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2015, 07:11:33 PM » |
|
I happen to believe that our founding documents set a moral bar that shouldn't just apply to those of us who happen to be citizens. how about this other right granted to me... I get due process and protection from police 'exuberance' (we did away with the rubber hose style of integragation) regardless of the legal status of another person, they also should get due process. to argue otherwise, suggests that while the police are prohibitted from beating the sh*t out of me, they have no such restraints when it comes to someone who is not a citizen.
If you illegally enter another country, you have no reason to believe you have any government granted rights at all. Laws vary from country to country, but some will not only beat the sh*t out of you, they will kill you on the spot -- due process be cursed. I was talking about our laws and our values. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
WilliamRS
|
|
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2015, 07:12:56 PM » |
|
I have always thought of our bill of rights as applying to all
I happen to believe
As much as you are entitled to them, your thoughts and beliefs are wrong. And another one goes on the ignore list. thank you. I will sleep better tonight. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
