A traffic stop and a cc permit holder

[Jersey mike]

Interesting situation on a traffic stop, the driver having a concealed carry permit and having his gun on him holstered.


http://thechive.com/2015/10/30/man-has-some-insightful-thoughts-about-getting-stopped-by-the-police-5-photos/

[vanagon40]

Hijack Alert!

A cop pulls over a little old lady of about 75 yrs old for speeding.  As she reaches in her purse to get her license, the cop notices her Conceal Carry Permit.  He asks, “Ma’am, I see you have a CCP, do you have a gun on your person at this time?”  She said, “Yes I do, I have Glock .40 cal in the glove box.”  He says, “Is that the only weapon you have on your person?”  She said, “No. I have a 9mm in my purse, a .45 cal in the console, and a Remington Pump 12 gauge in the trunk.”

The cop asks. “Lady what the hell are you so afraid of?”

She answers, “NOT A DAMN THING!!”

[Pete]

Officers should know two things:

ONE concealed carry license holders are the most law abiding of all citizens and are the least likely to be a danger to a policeman.

TWO handling of any loaded firearm (and holster) especially one that is not yours and that you may not be familiar with should be avoided.

Disarming this individual was an insult, a dangerous event and a waste of time and resources.
And to top it off they caused him to then reload his firearm on the side of the road another unnecessary handling of a firearm in public.

While the stop may have been necessary the rest was not. Officers should be trained better than this.

[Serk]

Officers should know two things:

ONE concealed carry license holders are the most law abiding of all citizens and are the least likely to be a danger to a policeman.

TWO handling of any loaded firearm (and holster) especially one that is not yours and that you may not be familiar with should be avoided.

Disarming this individual was an insult, a dangerous event and a waste of time and resources.
And to top it off they caused him to then reload his firearm on the side of the road another unnecessary handling of a firearm in public.

While the stop may have been necessary the rest was not. Officers should be trained better than this.

This seems to be a new rule from the idiots in charge regarding "disarming" CCW holders during any interaction...

In the 10+ years I've been legally carrying I've had several opportunities to interact with revenue collection officers, all have been pleasant, professional and have never asked to see or touch my weapon.

...until a few months ago.

I was tagged for speeding in a suburb of Dallas, pulled over, first thing told the cop I was carrying and where as I handed him my licenses.

He had me get out of the car with my hands up, turn around, put my hands on the hood while he fumbled around removing my weapon from my holster (IWB Hybrid).

He then stood there on the side of the busy road fumbling with my weapon trying to unload it, repeatedly racking the slide and ejecting live cartridges all over the side of the road (He hadn't dropped the magazine) while also fumbling with the weapon in general, swept me with it, fumbled some more, apologized saying he's not a "gun guy". It took all my willpower to not grab my gun back and show him how to do it.

Eventually he figured out how to drop the magazine and unload the weapon and let me pick up the live rounds he'd scattered all over the road.

It got sillier from there but you get the idea but eventually I got off with a warning, he placed my weapon and magazine in the trunk of my car and instructed me to not approach the trunk until he had gotten in his car and driven away.

All this extra risk, unnecessary handling of the weapon, fumbling with it, just exponentially increases the odds of something bad happening.

Oh well... Got off with a warning I guess... just so silly...

[Skinhead]

Back in the day, I was pulled over by the police in Texas, he asked if I had any alcohol or firearms.  I said, "No".  So he gave me a beer and a pistol.  Told me to have a nice day.

[bigguy]

he placed my weapon and magazine in the trunk of my car and instructed me to not approach the trunk until he had gotten in his car and driven away.

So much fail in this. People get so busy making their point they often don't stop and think about what they are saying.
In essence the officer told you that he didn't trust you with a weapon. He feared for his safety with you armed, so he wanted to just have you let him leave before rearming. He was leaving you, a man of whom he was fearful, loose on the public.
Either he considered you a danger when armed, in which case he has an obligation to get you off the street, or you are not a danger, in which case his actions amount to an unreasonable search and seizure.

[solo1]

Is it possible that the ' Ferguson' Effect is changing the mindset of LEO's today?  I'm on the side of the officers but they do want to go home at the end of shift.

To me, the blame rests solely on the blacks that raised hell even after the grand jury refused to indict in the Ferguson Case.  A major part of that can be traced to the socalled reverend (purposely not capitalized) Sharpton.

We all are going to be suspect in the eyes of the police. White, black, yellow, it makes no difference.  It's accentuated CYA time for police officers today.

For those who think I'm racial biased, I'm not, and you can commit a PC incorrect indignity upon yourself

[DirtyDan]

this is going to be a it much for most I know

how ever ive had this chat with current and retired LEOs

when they ask about the firearm do what they say....as it relates to the firearm

and ONLY the firearm

so when he disarms you the talk is only about the gun and NOTHING else

as long as im disarmed im in his custody

any other questions can be handled after my fire arm is returned to me

or am I under arrest ?

that whole don't load it till I leave ???? realy I cant even hear you with out my loaded gun on my person

but that's just me

dan

[Willow]

It does cause one to wonder.  When an LEO says to you, "For my safety I'm going to have to disarm you."

It would seem to make sense to reply, "For my safety I'm going to need you to disarm yourself as well." 

[Jess from VA]

Officers should know two things:

ONE concealed carry license holders are the most law abiding of all citizens and are the least likely to be a danger to a policeman.

TWO handling of any loaded firearm (and holster) especially one that is not yours and that you may not be familiar with should be avoided.

Disarming this individual was an insult, a dangerous event and a waste of time and resources.
And to top it off they caused him to then reload his firearm on the side of the road another unnecessary handling of a firearm in public.

While the stop may have been necessary the rest was not. Officers should be trained better than this.

This seems to be a new rule from the idiots in charge regarding "disarming" CCW holders during any interaction...

In the 10+ years I've been legally carrying I've had several opportunities to interact with revenue collection officers, all have been pleasant, professional and have never asked to see or touch my weapon.

...until a few months ago.

I was tagged for speeding in a suburb of Dallas, pulled over, first thing told the cop I was carrying and where as I handed him my licenses.

He had me get out of the car with my hands up, turn around, put my hands on the hood while he fumbled around removing my weapon from my holster (IWB Hybrid).

He then stood there on the side of the busy road fumbling with my weapon trying to unload it, repeatedly racking the slide and ejecting live cartridges all over the side of the road (He hadn't dropped the magazine) while also fumbling with the weapon in general, swept me with it, fumbled some more, apologized saying he's not a "gun guy". It took all my willpower to not grab my gun back and show him how to do it.

Eventually he figured out how to drop the magazine and unload the weapon and let me pick up the live rounds he'd scattered all over the road.

It got sillier from there but you get the idea but eventually I got off with a warning, he placed my weapon and magazine in the trunk of my car and instructed me to not approach the trunk until he had gotten in his car and driven away.

All this extra risk, unnecessary handling of the weapon, fumbling with it, just exponentially increases the odds of something bad happening.

Oh well... Got off with a warning I guess... just so silly...

No kidding it's silly.  If they HAVE to disarm you per policy, why not just set it loaded in the trunk and have you get back in the car?  All that fumbling around is ridiculous.

ON the bikes, mine is in the bag/trunk.  I tell them it's there.  No one yet asked if it was loaded.... three guesses.  They ask what it is.  I say it's a J-frame Smith... and I look at their eyes.  Some clearly know what that means.   A couple clearly have no idea what that means, but don't want to show ignorance and ask.  Stay out of your trunk.  No kidding officer.

Of course, faced with a ticket, you want to be nice and obedient.  

[Robert]

Kind of makes me wonder,

If you get stopped and tell the officer you have a gun and a permit, why would he think that you were going to shoot him since if you were going to shoot him you could have done it already.   

If you have gone through all the proper channels to acquire a gun and permit that means you have jumped through the governments hoops and have made the show that you WANT to OBEY the laws. Why would any officer fear for his life with this kind of submission and admission to the laws?

It kind of bothers me that there has to be a show of further submission to authority as to get out of the car unload the gun and risk the possible accidental discharge of the firearm just to satisfy a seemingly foolish dept rule. If the stop was going to go bad the officer could just as easily wave the car on and stop later with more back up and disarm the persons with more present. Isnt that what they do with a bad traffic stop?

Does he feel that physical force may be met with a gun? Does he feel it limits his use of physical force or is this just a way to hassle gun owners?

I am pretty sure that anyone who is going to shoot an officer is not going to tell him he has a gun.

[Jess from VA]

What happened to Serk seems to clearly be PD policy, not up to each officer.

[Gavin_Sons]

I got pulled over last year in a small podunk indiana town for passing a left turner in the right turn lane ( no left turn lane). The unmarked car behind me pulled me over and by the time he got to my window I alreasy had my registration license and drivers license ready. He asked if I knew what I did wrong.  I said no not really, then he told me it was for passing the left Turner in the right turn lane. I sed yes I did do that. He then askedif I had any weapons in thevehicle or on me. I had my bow in the passenger seatandmy glock the the front pouch of my seat between my legs. Told him that andhandedhim my cc permit. He sid he would be right back and just hang tight. Came back a couple minutes later and said obviously your not a criminal so your good to go. Didn't ask to remove my weapons or anything. I asked him the law about telling an officer you have a weapon or a cc permit and he said there is none that he knewof and I didn't have to produce or tell him I was armed if I didnt want too. Hethen said they really appreciate knowing these things just for peace of mind. He sid it's not the legal carriers you have to worry about, you were up front with me and I knew you would not be a threat. We then talked about bow hunting and shooting. Cool guy, one of the best I have encountered. I did let his department know how great he was. The very next day I watched the same cop do the exact same thing I got pulled over for. 

[old2soon]

As I understand it here in the Sho Me the C C W qual used to be on the license. It now is a separate piece of plastic with printed information only-no photo. Talked to the local-county and state L E Os and all said they would like to be informed if I'm strapped at the time. Have yet to be stopped while carrying. I'm also of the belief the bad people are NOT gonna inform the L E Os they are armed. IF the L E O is jumpy I will follow his orders. AND if he or she doe's NOT know HOW to release my magazine if that's needed maybe he or she will listen to what I have to say stead of dropping rounds on the ground next to the highway!  RIDE SAFE.

[..]

Stopped whilst driving cage.

Told office I was a CCW and firearm was in glove box.

He said "great make sure it stays there."

I replied "of course".

He ran my id and told me to have a nice day.

[Serk]

Stopped whilst driving cage.

Told office I was a CCW and firearm was in glove box.

He said "great make sure it stays there."

I replied "of course".

He ran my id and told me to have a nice day.

That's basically how every interaction I'd had with LEOs while carrying had gone until this most recent one. I've read a few places that "In a post-Ferguson world" more and more departments are implementing "Disarm the citizen" policies...

Of course, when a cop accidentally shoots someone while fumbling with an unfamiliar weapon it'll be the gun's fault too...

Stupid stupid policy...

[Jess from VA]

One might effectively argue that the people's right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, is in fact infringed when lawful and permitted citizens are disarmed as a matter of course in all traffic stops.  The argument that the citizen is not lawful, since he was pulled over for a simple traffic infraction, is a very poor argument.  As opposed to say, fleeing and eluding or any felonious issue or any violent issue presented by the evidence in each case.  Might be a case the NRA-ILA would be interested in.

Within months of VA's new CCW shall-issue law (and my permit), I was pulled over for using a public parking lot to avoid queuing up for two long lights, and told the officer I had a revolver in the glovebox.  He asked me to exit the vehicle and shut the door (no search or pat down).  He took like 20 minutes to write the ticket and I was feeling very poorly with a bad tooth and heavy dose of antibiotics and sat on a curb in the bright 90* sun.  I got angry, but said or did nothing (antibiotics and bright/hot sun make me irritable).  That was definitely made up on the spot and was and is not policy, and he could have easily passed for 17yo.  I was in a jacket and tie. 

In VA it is a moving violation to take action to avoid a traffic control device. 

[fudgie]

Good thing about Ind is you don't have to inform a officer. I do if im reaching near my firearm. Never a prob.

When I got pulled over in SD 2 Decembers ago and he didn't care. He knew I was carrying when he asked me go back to his car and I said "ummmm". He even let me carry while I sat in his car. I was open carrying.

[Serk]

Question to our resident shysters:

While he disarmed me I heard him call in the make/model and SN# of my firearm. This rather upset me but I kept my mouth shut because I wanted a warning (I figure you can't talk your way into a warning, but you CAN talk your way OUT of a warning, so I just stay quiet)

My question is this - I never consented to him doing this, he ordered me to allow him to disarm me, then without asking me or anything he started calling in the information. If something HAD come back, would this have gotten quickly thrown out on 4th amendment grounds or am I living in a fantasy world?

(And the precedent of this rather disturbs me, I don't like government agencies getting names corresponding to make/model serial number of firearms... Rather concerning...)

[Jess from VA]

Just to be clear, some States require you to immediately declare a CCW at first PD contact, some do not.

But all States require you to tell if you are asked (and asking seems to be one of the first three questions these days).

VA does not require an immediate declaration, but the collective forces have made it clear they don't like that, and want you to declare immediately.  I don't always have a pistola in the cage, but since I have a permit (which comes up as a blinking red light when my license # is punched in the cruiser computer), I tell him his computer will show I'm permitted but that I am not carrying, lest he return to my car with a very bad attitude.  They appreciate it.  And I appreciate a warning instead of a citation.

[Jess from VA]

Question to our resident shysters:

While he disarmed me I heard him call in the make/model and SN# of my firearm. This rather upset me but I kept my mouth shut because I wanted a warning (I figure you can't talk your way into a warning, but you CAN talk your way OUT of a warning, so I just stay quiet)

My question is this - I never consented to him doing this, he ordered me to allow him to disarm me, then without asking me or anything he started calling in the information. If something HAD come back, would this have gotten quickly thrown out on 4th amendment grounds or am I living in a fantasy world?

(And the precedent of this rather disturbs me, I don't like government agencies getting names corresponding to make/model serial number of firearms... Rather concerning...)

Serk, one is required to follow lawful police orders (and arguably illegal police orders too, you cannot resist).  You did not consent to a search, so ordinarily he would have to justify the search on probable cause or reasonable suspicion (cars) if the seized evidence was to be used against you.  How it would go in court is not a sure thing, but I can say they would be happy getting an illegal gun off the street even if they had to forgo a criminal possession charge.  Illegally obtained/searched contraband (stolen firearm/drugs) does not have to be returned, even if they cannot charge you.

But if Texas has a shall-declare CCW law, then he may be viewed as coming into possession of it lawfully even without consent, and running the number might be considered a reasonable intrusion into your 4th A rights.  But the law requires you to tell him about the firearm, not turn it over to him for inspection, unloading, securing in the trunk, and a record check.  And having jumped through all the hoops to get a CCW, you are already shown to be a lawful firearm owner/carrier...... but of course that does not preclude you from possessing a stolen firearm. (Yeah, this sounds like a law school essay exam answer where you identify as many issues as you can in the short time allotted... sorry)

The next question would be, are they creating a system of records tying owners to specific firearms? That would require a close study of many state and federal statutes.

And you're right, trying to have a civil conversation with the officer who just pulled you over on a righteous speeding ticket is not a good idea (esp if he is just following orders).  It might be interesting to write a note to the local Police Chief or Commissioner asking about any policy and how it is justified under the state and federal law (taking possession, unloading, putting in trunk, requiring you to reload in public, running the numbers). If they do have a new policy, they might have a stock legal analysis already on file.  It might also get your name added to a list.  If TX has a good state rifle organization, they might also be worth contacting for their opinion/advice.

I did a little looking, and there seems to be a lot of talk on this subject.  (Not all of it useful)

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/concealed-carry-issues-discussions/119872-disarming-ccw-holders-officers-prospective.html 

[Serk]

Thanks for the thorough analysis Jess... Pretty much what I'd expect from a lawyer, saying yes and no at the same time... (That's just an observation, not meant as an insult )

The officer said some things that made it sound to me like this was a policy change. As I recall he mentioned something about they now had to either disarm an armed CHL for the duration or they had to call backup and only proceed with the interaction once a 2nd officer was on scene.

Once again, bureaucrats making stupid rules that are going to get someone hurt.

Texas does have a "Must declare" law related to CHL, if stopped and you're carrying you legally have to notify.

Another interesting observation, this happened in McKinney Texas, as I recall 2 days before the infamous "Pool Party" incident this summer in that same town. (However, my officer was NOT the one involved with that brouhaha) - http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/10/us/mckinney-texas-pool-party-video/

Anyway, my weapon came back clean of course (Ironically, the officer complimented me on how physically clean my weapon was.), so this is purely an academic conversation but still interesting repercussions in relation to 4th amendment issues if nothing else.

Texas does have a very active TSRA (Texas State Rifle Association) of which I'm a life member, I probably should contact them on this and see if they have anything to say about it... I probably won't because  'ing about it here is more fun but I really should...

[fudgie]

A cop in Sturgis SD told me he hates when someone says they have a firearm because they have to run the #. He said it makes a small stop 'write a ticket and move on' take a lot longer.

[MP]

A cop in Sturgis SD told me he hates when someone says they have a firearm because they have to run the #. He said it makes a small stop 'write a ticket and move on' take a lot longer.

Thats the attitude in most of the middle of the country. It is the coasts, and some liberal cities in the middle, that have their panties in a bunch over legal gun ownership.

[Jess Tolbirt]

i have been pulled over about 4 times in the last ten years, here in Tn. we have a drivers license and a carry license that looks like the DL..when they walk up to the vehicle i hand them both at the same time, they ask am i carrying, i say of course,,they say where is it, i say right in front of me in a slot in the dash,, all of them said thats a neat place,,gave me a verbal warning and told me to have a nice day...

[DK]

What ever happened to the idea that a LEO was your friend - if you were a law abiding citizen?  (other than speeding)

I was a prosecuting attorney for six years early in my career and as such, became well acquainted with many LEO's. Of the five officers I worked with who were killed by firearms during that time, two were killed by drivers they had pulled over, one was killed with his own weapon and the remaining two were killed answerering a domestic disputes - nearly half were killed making traffic stops.

I am not going to nit-pick a cop's behavior if I'm pulled over while carrying a weapon. I've yet to be stopped for a traffic offense that I was not guilty of. 

My objective upon being stopped is try to strike up a conversation and ingratiate myself to the cop toward the end of avoiding getting a ticket. I realize that the officer is scared any time he is dealing with someone who is or may be carrying, if he has a lick of sense. I'm not going to upset the officer by asserting civil rights like some wet - lipped liberal; to the contrary, I grin & bear it. I'm on the cop's side and realize he is simply doing his job and he might even reign some of the cagers who are trying to kill us from time to time.

I'm all for letting the LEO handle this ticklish issue in any way he is comfortable, within reason.

Dan

[Serk]

What ever happened to the idea that a LEO was your friend - if you were a law abiding citizen?  (other than speeding)

I was a prosecuting attorney for six years early in my career and as such, became well acquainted with many LEO's. Of the five officers I worked with who were killed by firearms during that time, two were killed by drivers they had pulled over, one was killed with his own weapon and the remaining two were killed answerering a domestic disputes - nearly half were killed making traffic stops.

I am not going to nit-pick a cop's behavior if I'm pulled over while carrying a weapon. I've yet to be stopped for a traffic offense that I was not guilty of. 

My objective upon being stopped is try to strike up a conversation and ingratiate myself to the cop toward the end of avoiding getting a ticket. I realize that the officer is scared any time he is dealing with someone who is or may be carrying, if he has a lick of sense. I'm not going to upset the officer by asserting civil rights like some wet - lipped liberal; to the contrary, I grin & bear it. I'm on the cop's side and realize he is simply doing his job and he might even reign some of the cagers who are trying to kill us from time to time.

I'm all for letting the LEO handle this ticklish issue in any way he is comfortable, within reason.

Dan

A cop on the beat making case by case decisions on how to handle this is one thing.

What appears to be happening is a bunch of desk-jockey bureaucrats are implementing "Thou Shalt" universal rules forcing the street cops hands. And that's where I have a problem. A bureaucrat implementing a universal policy stops the LEO from handling the individual situations the best way they're comfortable with on a case by case basis.

[fudgie]

Had a couple that was involved in a mc wreck a month ago. I was assessing him as my partner was dealing with her. I started my hands on and asked him, as I do with all my pts, if they have any guns, knives, or needles. He said yes I have a handgun and a knife. I said ok, wheres it at. He told me and I was fine with it. I told my partner and he was like 'cool, what do u have?'  My other partners would have freaked out and had police secure it. 
My partner later said 'well, the ambulance just turned into a safe ambulance'. 

[Spirited-6]

Had a couple that was involved in a mc wreck a month ago. I was assessing him as my partner was dealing with her. I started my hands on and asked him, as I do with all my pts, if they have any guns, knives, or needles. He said yes I have a handgun and a knife. I said ok, wheres it at. He told me and I was fine with it. I told my partner and he was like 'cool, what do u have?'  My other partners would have freaked out and had police secure it. 
My partner later said 'well, the ambulance just turned into a safe ambulance'.