Right to work (for less)

[baldo]

I came across this today, and found it interesting in light of MAD6Gun's recent ordeal...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/scott-walker-right-to-work-law-unconstitutional

[Rams]

I came across this today, and found it interesting in light of MAD6Gun's recent ordeal...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/scott-walker-right-to-work-law-unconstitutional

How one relates to the other is a reach beyond any reasoning I could accept.    But then, there are folks who think a kilometer is greater than a mile.   

[CajunRider]

So a law that states you can't force someone to pay union dues if they don't want to join a union is against the state's constitution??? 

That is beyond stupid.

[Willow]

Long response.  My thoughts on right to work.  

I'm sixty-five.  I left home when I was seventeen.  My first eleven and a half years of supporting myself and my family probably have nothing to do with the right to work as I was a member of the United States Marine Corps.

I have been fired twice in my working history.  I did not necessarily agree with the reasons for either but it was the right of the employer and I went to work for them understanding that.  I've been well paid for what I do but then I've always been very good at what I do.  I understand that that is not true for everyone.  

I have never belonged to a trade union.  I don't usually talk about my perception of unions as I have friends with whom I really don't want to unnecessarily have an emotional argument.  I believe that if unions went away today we would need them again the day after tomorrow.  I also believe strongly that whenever either unions or employing companies become too strong the balance is ruined resulting in badness for either the work force or the purchasing public.

I believe it is wrong to demand a worker either join a union or be forced to pay union dues to work for a particular company.   I also believe it is wrong for a company to disallow its employees to organize into a union.

I strongly support right to work laws.  If you're someone who believes that means you have to work for less you may not understand the concepts of supply and demand and may also be very confused about why the United States of America is currently finding it difficult to compete worldwide in the employment market.  

[baldo]

So a law that states you can't force someone to pay union dues if they don't want to join a union is against the state's constitution??? 

That is beyond stupid.

Wow, I'm surprised at the response to my post, in light of what just happened.

To counter your question about forcing someone to pay union dues. So you have no problem benefiting from the efforts of the union in regards to pay, vacation, sick time, holiday pay? Am I reading that right? If starting a new job, and you had the option to pay dues for this wage and benefit package, or pay no dues and work for this other package. That would be ok with you?

Talk about the "free crap army".

[scooperhsd]

Unions had their place and reason for existence in the day. Not so sure about anymore. Any employer I've worked for since I left the service has been plenty fair on treatment of employees.

[Ramie]

I currently work for the state government my experience is similar to Willows

I have been fired twice in my working history.  I did not necessarily agree with the reasons for either but it was the right of the employer and I went to work for them understanding that.  I've been well paid for what I do but then I've always been very good at what I do.

As a state employee I am required to pay union dues whether I join the union or not.  I pay the extra 8 bucks a pay check to at least have a voice but I have to tell you it's not much of a voice.    They once tried to lay me off and give my job to someone with no experience and less time in position and the union rep said noting until I tore the rep a new one.  It's been my experience they don't really care.  I have learned over the years who the few people that get  things done are and I bypass everyone else.  I keep my head down and I make sure I do my job better than anyone else can, it's the way my dad taught me.
 I'm sure unions have a place but when the give all their money to one party so that party can pay it back to them out of the tax payers pocket I have a problem with that.  I may benefit from it in the end but I would rather they pay me more because I do the best job.  There's no pride in being paid a good salary because they have to.
I'm sure there are stories of how the union did good things for people but so far that hasn't been my experience.
Just my two cents from 65 years of experience.  I guess not exactly 65 because I've only been working since I was 10.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Unions had their place and reason for existence in the day. Not so sure about anymore. Any employer I've worked for since I left the service has been plenty fair on treatment of employees.

There still is a place and a reason. Probably always will be. I have been in a Union for 1/2 of my working life. I have been in a Right to Work state for 1/3 of my working life.

[CajunRider]

Wow, I'm surprised at the response to my post, in light of what just happened.

To counter your question about forcing someone to pay union dues. So you have no problem benefiting from the efforts of the union in regards to pay, vacation, sick time, holiday pay? Am I reading that right? If starting a new job, and you had the option to pay dues for this wage and benefit package, or pay no dues and work for this other package. That would be ok with you?

Talk about the "free crap army".

Not a single line of your counter applies to me in any way.

I get no union benefits, packages, or wages.  
I do my own negotiations when hired.  No one to negotiates for me.  

What I have done, what I have, and where I am is due to my own hard work, study, and sacrifices.  I owe nothing to anyone other than my parents for a good upbringing.  

I have a good job with good pay, none of it due to unions.  
ALL of it due to my knowledge and work ethic.

Does this make me part of the "free crap army"?  I don't think so.  

[Raider]

My experience with unions has been mixed.  At UPS (MANY years ago), there seemed to be a good balance and the company seemed committed to taking care of their employees anyway.

Now, the union that I deal with (I'm on the other side of the equation now) seems to be focused on frivolous power trips that result in nothing but wasted time. 

Need to move some union employees to another building while theirs is being renovated?  Good, you'll have to submit a request because you moved a desk more than 7 inches in any direction.  The union will have 30 days to respond.  They respond at 29 days with questions and demands for "inconveniencing their employees."  You now respond with a counter offer, and they have another 30 days to respond. 

It's all a matter of milking "the man" for whatever they can take.  Not one item was to be moved by the employees- all done for them.  They all had at least as much space as they previously had, and in fact had a better overall workspace during the renovation.  And for all this, we were at the mercy of the union for months. 

Ridiculous.

[baldo]

My experience with unions has been mixed.  At UPS (MANY years ago), there seemed to be a good balance and the company seemed committed to taking care of their employees anyway.

Now, the union that I deal with (I'm on the other side of the equation now) seems to be focused on frivolous power trips that result in nothing but wasted time. 

Need to move some union employees to another building while theirs is being renovated?  Good, you'll have to submit a request because you moved a desk more than 7 inches in any direction.  The union will have 30 days to respond.  They respond at 29 days with questions and demands for "inconveniencing their employees."  You now respond with a counter offer, and they have another 30 days to respond. 

It's all a matter of milking "the man" for whatever they can take.  Not one item was to be moved by the employees- all done for them.  They all had at least as much space as they previously had, and in fact had a better overall workspace during the renovation.  And for all this, we were at the mercy of the union for months. 

Ridiculous.

I agree, sometimes union shenanigans are outrageous. Goes a long way toward giving tbem a bad name. However, for the sake of tbis discussion, my point is that RTW laws do nothing for the worker. It puts the power and advantage solely with the employer. What is the benefit for the worker? Studies show that wages in RTW states are an average of 15% lower than a non-RTW. AND you can be terminated for no reason. Have a jerkoff for a boss that doesn't like motorcycles because his wife ran off with a biker? Good luck. He could boot you before you put the kickstand down. I work for a non-union outfit now, and would prefer to have union representation.

Cajun, I expect your situation is not the norm. Kudos to you, you're one of the fortunate ones.

[saddlesore]

  I lost my job of 15 years trying to get a union started there.  Went to work in a union shop and it didn't take long to see any problems I had were from the union not management.
  The union did not protect my wages, vacation time, seniority and in general the entire contract.
  They were a dues collection organization living on what they accomplished years ago. but not enforcing it.
   That union was the biggest union busting organization around. 

[big d]

Everything I need to know about unions I learned through my friend from school. Lou graduated high school and went into the construction Union in white plains New York. His father was the president of said union. He made much more money than I did in the beginning, but he was also out of work a lot more than I was also for extended periods of time. Thus he always had major credit card debt.
 As time went on my salary increased as did his. At one point his job was putting together office  cubicles making over 80 bucks an hour. You wonder why things cost so much, that's why. One day I am at work and I get a phone call Lou is in the hospital. His current job is turning a parking garage into a shopping mall. Parts of the stairs are missing as well as part of the floor. The shop steward would not give him the proper harness. He was working on the heating and a/c ducts. He slipped and fell into the duct, fell 20 feet to the floor. Well he didn't stop there as a whole was cut in the floor and some Sheetrock was put over it. Yup, he fell through the Sheetrock another 20 feet. 
 Well guess what happened, yup they refused all medical expenses. Meanwhile shortly before this happened his father had retired with the Rolex and Cadillac for his service to the union. Lou's father contacted the new union boss and was told Lou was on his own. Lou took them to court and won enough money he will never have to work again. This accident happened when Lou was in his mid 30's. He still does not have all of his memory and use of his right arm. He will never be able to work a job again.

[baldo]

  I lost my job of 15 years trying to get a union started there.  Went to work in a union shop and it didn't take long to see any problems I had were from the union not management.
  The union did not protect my wages, vacation time, seniority and in general the entire contract.
  They were a dues collection organization living on what they accomplished years ago. but not enforcing it.
   That union was the biggest union busting organization around. 

Saddlesore, which union was it, if you don't mind me asking. I was with the IAM for 20 years, wasn't too impressed. But the protection was pretty good. Those that have worked in the airline industry know how easy it was to get screwed.

[DirtyDan]

I have said this before

 The best part about my union is that one is employed to make the boss money. If you make money for the boss then you get some for yourself

the boss has a blank check book in his pocket. he can get rid of ANYONE ANYTIME for ANY reason

? like here is your money now get off the job site.......GOODBYE !!! you can go back to the union hall and try again

mean ? cruel ? yeah just like LIFE

its also why we get paid so much. I was a guy cashing the checks not writing them

it got rid of the dead wood FAST

dan

[saddlesore]

  I lost my job of 15 years trying to get a union started there.  Went to work in a union shop and it didn't take long to see any problems I had were from the union not management.
  The union did not protect my wages, vacation time, seniority and in general the entire contract.
  They were a dues collection organization living on what they accomplished years ago. but not enforcing it.
   That union was the biggest union busting organization around. 

Saddlesore, which union was it, if you don't mind me asking. I was with the IAM for 20 years, wasn't too impressed. But the protection was pretty good. Those that have worked in the airline industry know how easy it was to get screwed.

Graphic Communications International Union / Milwaukee  local 577M
They merged with the Madison chapter.  Then after I left they aligned with the Teamsters to try to stay solvent.   
The pension fund is in peril.  My local pension was already cut.
I could write a book on some of the crap that went on. 

[Jess from VA]

Really, there is no simple good/bad analysis about unions.  Historically, they were pretty necessary, and all about protecting the working man, and his life.  Later, they often seemed to care more about themselves (the union, and it's leadership) than the working man.  Then organized crime got involved (in some).  There is a lot of good and a lot of not so good about them.  When wage and benefit demands got to the tipping point of closing plants and companies, and moving jobs overseas, they began to look suicidal (for the working man and America).  And there are quite a few different kinds and types and membership sizes, that a single opinion about unions generally just doesn't fit.

For Federal workers (AFGE), they were more of a joke.  From my perspective, the only people interested in serving as officers were those who had had so many personal run-ins with management in their own jobs, they joined and ran for leadership to avoid being fired (for cause, not for union work).  Beyond the basics of hours, wages, grievance and adverse action procedure, notifications, yada, they were otherwise fairly dim bulbs.  If you were a GS5 who got disciplined in violation of proper procedure they were your guy, if you had a complex labor dispute under Fed law, they nodded and blinked at you



  

[Wizzard]

Wow, I'm surprised at the response to my post, in light of what just happened.

To counter your question about forcing someone to pay union dues. So you have no problem benefiting from the efforts of the union in regards to pay, vacation, sick time, holiday pay? Am I reading that right? If starting a new job, and you had the option to pay dues for this wage and benefit package, or pay no dues and work for this other package. That would be ok with you?

Talk about the "free crap army".

Not a single line of your counter applies to me in any way.

I get no union benefits, packages, or wages.  
I do my own negotiations when hired.  No one to negotiates for me.  

What I have done, what I have, and where I am is due to my own hard work, study, and sacrifices.  I owe nothing to anyone other than my parents for a good upbringing.  

I have a good job with good pay, none of it due to unions.  
ALL of it due to my knowledge and work ethic.

Does this make me part of the "free crap army"?  I don't think so.  

That is exactly me also. 

[solo1]

I am reading this with interest. A lot of good points made here, Willow and Jess for two.

I started work in a union shop at an early age, about 1946.  i was required to join.  On my first day on the second shift I was showed how to make 'widgets' in a machine shop (GE). I made 'x' number of them before 10:30 at night and was told by the union employees  to quit making them until the 11:48 end of shift.

The next day, when I punched in my time card at 3:30pm, I was stopped by the union steward and was told (actually threatened) "You're making the day shift look bad, you're making too many 'widgets' "

Quite a few years later I was working at Magnavox as salary management.  The hourly assembly line employees went on strike.  We HAD to cross the picket lines.  The Union brought in goons the first day and things got violent; I almost got hit waiting patiently for the picket lines to open so that I could cross them.    The Sheriff's department soon got things under control and I had no more problems.  The regular workers and I got along fine, we respected each other.

Some time later, I was temporarily laid off from my salaried job and I took a job as an electrician, wiring homes.  Were were 'scabs'   In a short time our company was doing a better job than the journymen union electricians but we were catching hell from the union help with constant badgering and threats.

One last instance. I was employed as a service technician for GE Xray.  we were installing xray equipment in a hospital in Indy.  The Union refused to turn off the power so I had to wire in the xray view boxes hot, those SOBS!   In addition, the union boss insisted on having his men do the point to point wiring between the xray transformer and the xray controller. Clearly, he was in the wrong but our sales manager boss let him get away with it. We then had to check the union work and correct it so that we wouldn't have big problems when we 'fired it up'

One last. Mark and I have discussed why he has to fix problems on new cars caused by union workers at GM who make three times as much as he does plus benefits and yet they don't have over 50k in tools or the technical experience.

To get back to my original experience, it's is no wonder our jobs have gone overseas what with the employer/union situation.  Unions had a need back when cheap labor and hard work were demanded by the employer.  Today we are reaping what we sowed.  Union demands, high taxes on the employer and we are now not a manufacturing country but a service country with many fewer jobs but a bigger work force.

To sum it up, I do not like Unions. I've seen poor employees who kept their jobs because of union contracts while, all my working life, I was subjected to reviews to keep my job.  In a large sense, many union employees are vastly overpaid, IMHO, while professionals like Mark are crap on.

The only union that I would approve of is one for the master techs who keep the cars running.  However, it probably would soon reach a point where labor on cars would exceed something like 300 bucks an hour (have to stay ahead of the 15 bucks an hour minimum wage for some states for flipping burgers.)

Seriously, we have a large potential working force in this country but few jobs. Most work is sent overseas to China, a Communist country but that's another story.  Here in the US the fault can be equally shared by Unions, employers, politicians (high corporate taxes)and just plain greed on the part of all.

Whew!, I'm done. AND that's  how I really feel  

Wayne. solo1

[RDAbull]

baldo.
 I work for a non-union outfit now, and would prefer to have union representation.

That should be an easy fix, quit your job and go find one in a union shop.

[Jess from VA]

I'm with you (and your opinions) Wayne.   

[baldo]

baldo.
 I work for a non-union outfit now, and would prefer to have union representation.

That should be an easy fix, quit your job and go find one in a union shop.

RDA, thanks for the heartfelt advice, I'll take it under advisement.

[The emperor has no clothes]

baldo.
 I work for a non-union outfit now, and would prefer to have union representation.

That should be an easy fix, quit your job and go find one in a union shop.

RDA, thanks for the heartfelt advice, I'll take it under advisement.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Something I've noticed about a lot of anti-union people is:

They feel if their wages are comparable to union wages why should they join a union.
They think the wages and benefits are given to them out of the goodness in their heart employers.
They don't understand or don't care that they were hard earned by union members over years.
So in effect they are riding on the coat tails of union members.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Going on 30 years in the Teamsters and damn proud of it .

[RDAbull]

Something I've noticed about a lot of anti-union people is:

They feel if their wages are comparable to union wages why should they join a union.

 I have never worked for a wage.   I have traded my time, temperament and talent for every dollar that I have EARNED.

They think the wages and benefits are given to them out of the goodness in their heart employers.
             I have never asked for anything "out of the goodness of my employers heart" but have negotiated each of the benefits of said T,T, & T.

They don't understand or don't care that they were hard earned by union members over years.
               I don't begrudge the hard working union members anything that THEY don't begrudge from the sloths that live by benefit of the union, but don't help produce for the employers in return.

So in effect they are riding on the coat tails of union members.
                 
       Sorry, the coattails aren't long enough to carry all of us.

[baldo]

Something I've noticed about a lot of anti-union people is:

They feel if their wages are comparable to union wages why should they join a union.
They think the wages and benefits are given to them out of the goodness in their heart employers.
They don't understand or don't care that they were hard earned by union members over years.
So in effect they are riding on the coat tails of union members.

That's exactly right. the go-to response is always that they'll be responsible for their own well-being. all I can say is good luck with that. Unless you're lucky and in a good situation, you're employment is entirely at the whim of your employer. And a RTW state provides no benefit at all that I can see, to the employee.

And that gentlemen, was the reason I started this thread.

[baldo]

Going on 30 years in the Teamsters and damn proud of it .

What do you do for work?

[The emperor has no clothes]

Going on 30 years in the Teamsters and damn proud of it .

31 in the UFCW. Damn proud also 

[Steve K (IA)]

Going on 30 years in the Teamsters and damn proud of it .

31 in the UFCW. Damn proud also 

27 years in the IBEW and Proud here also, now retired.   

[DirtyDan]

pipefitters local 274 {jersey city}20 years then MS

dan

[Valker]

I have many friends in unions. I have no issues with unions since I've never belonged to one. I've worked for the past 50 years without ever being unemployed. I've always either been happy with my employers or moved along. Some employers I've worked for for over 30 years. I live in a RTW state (Texas). I had a friend here who moved to a high paying job in Ohio a few years back as a site manager for a construction company. One morning when he showed up to work, a bulldozer had been left partially blocking the entrance. It needed to be moved about 3 feet to allow the equipment in to start the day. He started to climb up and move it, but the workers yelled at him that moving that was a union members job. The 100 man crew sat around and waited over an hour for the union equipment operator to show for 1 minute to move the dozer. The operator made his union wage for a 4 hour minimum to move the dozer for 1 minute. The company was out over 100 man hours for waiting. Where's the sense in that? Me moved back to Texas. Now, my uncle was a union member who worked for a large Ohio company. When they converted from mechanical machines to electronic one, they laid off almost 30,000 people. He got laid off after 34 years there. He had no recourse according to the union reps, but the reps all still had their jobs....... My best friend here in Texas was a union guy (IBEW) and a rep for many years. He never had issues with the company or the union other that safety reviews. That seemed to be important in his field of work, so I'm glad it helped. He did resent the union dues and mentioned that he did not feel it was worth it.
These are just my observations and thinking. Let each person decide for themselves what side of this discussion they fall on. YMMV

[solo1]

I can appreciate all of you HARD WORKERS who belong to a union.  

What I don't appreciate is the BS that unions can cause.   At Magnavox, we had a union employee carpenter who screwed the pooch five days so he could work (sorta) at time and a half on Saturday.
His supervisor could do nothing as the union did its job to keep this goofoff's job for him.
Whenever, I had a problem that needed to be solved the union would delay before it decided who to send.  As an example, an electric pump motor failed on my shaker system.  The plumber was called to unhook the pipes, the electrician was called to unhook the power, the carpenter was called to unbolt the motor from the wood floor, and the fingerlift driver was called to pick up the motor on its skid. None of them arrived at the same time!   TRUE STORY!

Meanwhile a $250,000 40 thousand watt shaker was down delaying a very important environmental test involving a 'black box' that was used on board aircraft to early detect SAM's  launched by the Viet Cong in Vietnam.

So you in unions, don't tell me unions are perfect.!   Good pay and faithful union workers do not always produce good products on time.  


I would like to add one more thing. I was in management on salary at Magnavox. I received regular reviews, I took additional needed training to keep up, I also worked my arse off and I was the mercy of my superviser with no union to take my part.  I was treated fairly by my employer thoughout my profession and advanced to associate environmental test engineer WITHOUT a four year degree and I'm cursed proud that I did it with no union support.

[Jess from VA]

Another way to look at unions is this:

Ever since men got up and walked on two feet and became hunter gatherers, they banded together for safety, and increased productivity... probably with a division of labor (hunters/warriors/gatherers/fire makers/child raisers/and a leader).  This was a good thing.

A while back, a group of men in this country organized to revolt from an unfair and not quite benevolent enough monarchy who treated us owned subjects with no vote (other than letters begging consideration of our needs and wishes).  It was a long drawn out bloody fight, but they finally won against all the odds.  Most agree this was a good thing.

Then those men again organized to set up a new democratic republic formed around a constitution that included three govt branches with carefully thought out checks and balances so hopefully no part of Govt (or the Govt itself) became too powerful, with an ability to usurp all power and control the people against their will.  There were a few big problems, and a few wars, but it worked out pretty good for the people.  Most agree this was a good thing.

Then there was the industrial revolution with the country becoming more urban and less agricultural, with a need for massive amounts of labor (with dozens of new skilled trades, and always basic labor) to build and run mines, steel, electric, railroads, telegraphs, shipping, etc.  There arose a monarchical-like class of private men like Carnegie, JP Morgan, Rockefeller, Ford, Firestone, and many more who had all the money and power over legions of working men who again had no vote (other than letters begging consideration of their needs and wishes).  Most agree the industrial revolution was a good thing, but the working man ended up with a very short stick.

So eventually, those men again organized together to try and protect themselves (and families depending on them) against the dangers and hardships of their daily toil.  There also arose during this time men like Marx and Lenin who developed a whole new political philosophy of human life, to replace religion with the theoretical idea that working men were the basic producers of all value, and that government should take over all industry and means of production so the workingman could gain maximum benefit of their labor, and there would not be any rich private industrial men.  While the theory sounded good as theory, we all know it was a huge lie to put a few men in totalitarian power over everything and everyone.  While unions and communism are not the same thing at all, they have many common themes, and many men in this country who lead the way to strong unionism were greatly influenced with parts of this Socialist philosophy (and it also infiltrated and influenced all areas of politics greatly in this country).  

There was another long and bloody fight, but unions were eventually legalized, covered in sweeping and continuing legislation, with many supreme court cases, all trying to lay out a fair system of checks and balances so neither labor nor management could usurp all power over the other.  Most agree this was a good thing.

But at some point, it appears the unions ended up with more power than management, and that did not benefit the country as a whole.  Unions became synonymous with the DNC, and management became synonymous with the RNC (although today management often contributes equally to both parties, I know of no contributions of labor to the RNC).  The greatest manufacturing industrial power the world has ever seen has gone into decline, and is being replaced with a service economy, massive loss of industry and jobs and a govt/taxpayer supported Free Sh!t Army who is paid to stay home and vote Democrat.  (Now this is not ALL due to unions, but they surely assisted in the process)  The people I respect do not think this is a good thing.  

As the country has marched along, the great institutions formed by men to attempt to achieve a fair and equitable balance of power between govt and men, and industry and men, became a huge competition involving vast amounts of money and influence where the goals of fundamental fairness for all were replaced by a win-at-any-cost, and grow-the-institution, self-interest mentality, certainly to the detriment of the people and the country.

So power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Some of us wonder if there is another bloody fight coming.  

[G-Man]

Wow, I'm surprised at the response to my post, in light of what just happened.

To counter your question about forcing someone to pay union dues. So you have no problem benefiting from the efforts of the union in regards to pay, vacation, sick time, holiday pay? Am I reading that right? If starting a new job, and you had the option to pay dues for this wage and benefit package, or pay no dues and work for this other package. That would be ok with you?

Talk about the "free crap army".

Not a single line of your counter applies to me in any way.

I get no union benefits, packages, or wages.  
I do my own negotiations when hired.  No one to negotiates for me.  

What I have done, what I have, and where I am is due to my own hard work, study, and sacrifices.  I owe nothing to anyone other than my parents for a good upbringing.  

I have a good job with good pay, none of it due to unions.  
ALL of it due to my knowledge and work ethic.

Does this make me part of the "free crap army"?  I don't think so.  

B,b,b,but you drove on public roads to get to those negotiations, didn't you?  Therefore, your knowledge and work ethic, you didn't build that.

(boy, that sounds so ridiculous, even during satire)   

[G-Man]

Something I've noticed about a lot of anti-union people is:

They feel if their wages are comparable to union wages why should they join a union.
They think the wages and benefits are given to them out of the goodness in their heart employers.
They don't understand or don't care that they were hard earned by union members over years.
So in effect they are riding on the coat tails of union members.

So, none of the negative posts thus far in the discussion mean anything?  Because unions once yadda, yadda, and now we work 5 days, yadda, yadda, we should be forever in their debt?

I could give you 4 more negative union stories where dues were paid, something happened, jobs were lost, but the union survives.  But they would still be discounted, right? 

It's like the ACA......... a few gain the benefits, but many more lose out for those few gains.  The folks that were hurt were called liars by a Senator and discounted.

[Daddie O]

Did you know that labor unions made the following 36 things possible?
 
Weekends without work
All breaks at work, including your lunch breaks
Paid vacation
Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA)
Sick leave
Social Security
Minimum wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII - prohibits employer discrimination
8-hour work day
Overtime pay
Child labor laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40-hour work week
Workers' compensation (workers' comp)
Unemployment insurance
Pensions
Workplace safety standards and regulations
Employer health care insurance
Collective bargaining rights for employees
Wrongful termination laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA)
Whistleblower protection laws
Employee Polygraph Protection Act (EPPA) - prohibits employers from using a lie detector test on an employee
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and evaluations (i.e. raises)
Sexual harassment laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday pay
Employer dental, life, and vision insurance
Privacy rights
Pregnancy and parental leave
Military leave
The right to strike
Public education for children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 - requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work
Laws ending sweatshops in the United States

Do not pretend the laws of "supply and demand" is what makes employers provide these things, because they didn't provide them before unions, and they would not provide them without the influence of unions.

[DirtyDan]

Did you know that labor unions made the following 36 things possible?
 
Weekends without work
All breaks at work, including your lunch breaks
Paid vacation
Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA)
Sick leave
Social Security
Minimum wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII - prohibits employer discrimination
8-hour work day
Overtime pay
Child labor laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40-hour work week
Workers' compensation (workers' comp)
Unemployment insurance
Pensions
Workplace safety standards and regulations
Employer health care insurance
Collective bargaining rights for employees
Wrongful termination laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA)
Whistleblower protection laws
Employee Polygraph Protection Act (EPPA) - prohibits employers from using a lie detector test on an employee
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and evaluations (i.e. raises)
Sexual harassment laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday pay
Employer dental, life, and vision insurance
Privacy rights
Pregnancy and parental leave
Military leave
The right to strike
Public education for children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 - requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work
Laws ending sweatshops in the United States

Do not pretend the laws of "supply and demand" is what makes employers provide these things, because they didn't provide them before unions, and they would not provide them without the influence of unions.

supply and demand is EXACTLY  what made the employers provide these things the union cut the supply of manpower until the demand for labor increased its value to include these things

dan

[The emperor has no clothes]

Something I've noticed about a lot of anti-union people is:

They feel if their wages are comparable to union wages why should they join a union.
They think the wages and benefits are given to them out of the goodness in their heart employers.
They don't understand or don't care that they were hard earned by union members over years.
So in effect they are riding on the coat tails of union members.

So, none of the negative posts thus far in the discussion mean anything?  Because unions once yadda, yadda, and now we work 5 days, yadda, yadda, we should be forever in their debt?

I could give you 4 more negative union stories where dues were paid, something happened, jobs were lost, but the union survives.  But they would still be discounted, right? 

It's like the ACA......... a few gain the benefits, but many more lose out for those few gains.  The folks that were hurt were called liars by a Senator and discounted.

Gary, the negative posts do mean something. I have never said that unions were above reproach or that we should be in their debt. What I am saying is that non union workers pay and benefits is directly tied to the gains that union workers have fought for. Most anti-Union people don't seem to get that. They enjoy the fruits of the union workers dues and battles at no cost to themselves.

[Serk]

They feel if their wages are comparable to union wages why should they join a union.

Nope, there is no union in my field (in the US at least) but I'd wager I make way more than most union jobs anyway.

They think the wages and benefits are given to them out of the goodness in their heart employers.

Nope. The wages and benefits my employee compensates me with are done out of pure greed. They want quality people that can perform specific skills, so they're willing to compensate me at the level required for me to perform those activities. If they could get someone to do what I do for less they would in a heart beat (And have tried, I've trained my offshore replacements many times, but so far at least, they always keep me around or bring me back to clean up those messes.)

They don't understand or don't care that they were hard earned by union members over years.
So in effect they are riding on the coat tails of union members.

Once again, my field has never been unionized, and I'm in a right to work state with at-will employment laws. I'm not riding any union's coattails.