Right to work (for less)

[The emperor has no clothes]

They feel if their wages are comparable to union wages why should they join a union.

Nope, there is no union in my field (in the US at least) but I'd wager I make way more than most union jobs anyway.

They think the wages and benefits are given to them out of the goodness in their heart employers.

Nope. The wages and benefits my employee compensates me with are done out of pure greed. They want quality people that can perform specific skills, so they're willing to compensate me at the level required for me to perform those activities. If they could get someone to do what I do for less they would in a heart beat (And have tried, I've trained my offshore replacements many times, but so far at least, they always keep me around or bring me back to clean up those messes.)

They don't understand or don't care that they were hard earned by union members over years.
So in effect they are riding on the coat tails of union members.

Once again, my field has never been unionized, and I'm in a right to work state with at-will employment laws. I'm not riding any union's coattails.

You have me at a disadvantage Serk. I'm not versed in NSA work.  I do realize there are many fields that are not unionized, but I can only speak with accuracy about work that I have been in or that people I am close to are in.

[baldo]

Something I've noticed about a lot of anti-union people is:

They feel if their wages are comparable to union wages why should they join a union.
They think the wages and benefits are given to them out of the goodness in their heart employers.
They don't understand or don't care that they were hard earned by union members over years.
So in effect they are riding on the coat tails of union members.

So, none of the negative posts thus far in the discussion mean anything?  Because unions once yadda, yadda, and now we work 5 days, yadda, yadda, we should be forever in their debt?

I could give you 4 more negative union stories where dues were paid, something happened, jobs were lost, but the union survives.  But they would still be discounted, right?  

It's like the ACA......... a few gain the benefits, but many more lose out for those few gains.  The folks that were hurt were called liars by a Senator and discounted.

Sorry Gman, I had to.....

[saddlesore]

"Did you know that labor unions made the following 36 things possible?"
 
Weekends without work.......nope/ Saturday and Sunday
All breaks at work, including your lunch breaks.......Nope,no breaks     
Paid vacation....lost 4 weeks vacation pay trying to get union in non union shop
Family & Medical Leave Act (FMLA)......no family for me, not applicable 
Sick leave.....their philosophy/come in sick, spread it around
Social Security
Minimum wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII - prohibits employer discrimination...meant nothing to management or union 
8-hour work day...start second shift at 3:00 PM, work until done,usually 2:00 or 3:00 AM sometimes till first shift came in   
Overtime pay
Child labor laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA) .......Non existent
40-hour work week .......never
Workers' compensation (workers' comp)
Unemployment insurance
Pensions .....mandatory and used as a toll to keep you in line
Workplace safety standards and regulations....non existent
Employer health care insurance..union insurance, also used as a threat
Collective bargaining rights for employees.......might start bargaining 2 or 3 even 4 months after contract expired
Wrongful termination laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA).... non existent     
Whistleblower protection laws
Employee Polygraph Protection Act (EPPA) - prohibits employers from using a lie detector test on an employee
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)....not one vet or training
Compensation increases and evaluations (i.e. raises)......raises IF they felt like it 
Sexual harassment laws....some of the most lewd people I ever met
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)...meant nothing
Holiday pay...usually working
Employer dental, life, and vision insurance....nope
Privacy rights...violated in insurance scam
Pregnancy and parental leave...not applicable
Military leave....non military shop
The right to strike...that shop would never strike
Public education for children....
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 - requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work
Laws ending sweatshops in the United States

Do not pretend the laws of "supply and demand" is what makes employers provide these things, because they didn't provide them before unions, and they would not provide them without the influence of unions.

Unions may have started most of them but the union I was in did all they could to reverse what the unions accomplished.
When trying to organize a union in my other job the organizer brought all of that up.  Sounds good but once the dues were coming in you were on your own.  I survived 16 years there because of my work ethic.
   

[art]

Most non union shops do provide some of those things,not because they like you or want to, it's because the union competition does. read MAD6GUNS post 3/7/16 and I'll bet he would have plenty to say about non union shops. I have worked mostly union machine shops (including GE) for over 50 years and the worst was working in a few non union shops. One promised a nice bonus at Christmas and all we got was an ass chewing and a promise to close the shop and move it. Another was working for a boss that was an idiot once a month when he had a fight with his wife. He would take it out on the workers. Talk about PMS. 6 months after I got injured on the job I was fired the week before Christmas.  Retired with a pension from GE thanks to the union.

[DirtyDan]

"Do not pretend the laws of "supply and demand" is what makes employers provide these things, because they didn't provide them before unions, and they would not provide them without the influence of unions."

the union influenced the supply of labor influencing the demand for the labor

the providing of labor became a business like many others

dan

[saddlesore]

I tried to highlight my answers to the list.  These are benefits fought for by unions but the union I was in brought those thing back to the depression era. 
I am not against all unions just the union I was in.  They are a disgrace to those who fought for those rights.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Going on 30 years in the Teamsters and damn proud of it .

What do you do for work?

Heavy hauler ( over-size ) for the U.S. Government.

[threevalks]

39 years in the UBC, would not have it any other way.

[solo1]

Thanks Jess, for saying it so well.  I knew of the history but I spoke about personal experience.

Bringing it back to the beginning, because of Mark's firing I do think that master techs should have a union.  They must teach newcomers to the profession but then they get the hard jobs which don't pay. That is unfair.  The unions were originally started to give the working man a fair shake but have morphed into a political machine that protects the hard workers and the malcontents alike.

I must admit that if I had worked mainly in union shops all of my life, I too could probably have afforded just about anything that I've wanted even more than two motorcycles at any one time.  I do admit that I did own two at the same time, a GW and a KLR.  

THAT reminds me of an International Harvester employee telling me how much he was making as a production line worker union member.  It was quite a bit more than  I was earning at that time working for Magnavox as a environmental tech.   Of course a year later. International Harvester pulled up stakes and left Ft. Wayne, looking for a cheaper labor market and he was out of a job while I was still employed testing military electronics.

Very good discussion here and thanks again Jess for your input.

[Gavin_Sons]

I work for a non union shop and we build a lot of machines for union shops. Every time we do an install the union guys get all oissed we are there and try to sabotage our work. We were installing this new robot cell we build and was going to lunch, the whole morning we had 8 union guys standing aroumd in the way not doing a damn thing. We left for lunch and came back to find our tools missing and they had gone in our junction boxes and moved wires. Some of the hot wires to grounds and some neutrals to hot. They finally brought our tools back after the head guy was call and our owner told him he would take his f-ing machine and leave. We packed up and left. Finally 3 weeks later the company begged enouhh to habe us come back and finish installing it. I know tjere are a lot of hard working union guys out there, but I have not met many personally on the job. They are over paid lazy turds.  I prefer to work for independent companys.our company consist of about 60 people

[Serk]

...another reason I'm not so fond of unions: (Especially in non-free states where you're forced to join one, and thus forced to financially contribute to groups who may or may not be who you personally support)

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

...no wonder the Democrats are so strongly opposed to right to work laws...

[saddlesore]

...another reason I'm not so fond of unions: (Especially in non-free states where you're forced to join one, and thus forced to financially contribute to groups who may or may not be who you personally support)

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

...no wonder the Democrats are so strongly opposed to right to work laws...

To get away from those contributions you can go on Beck status which  takes the percentage paid to those groups off of your dues.  However the deduction is only a small percentage of what is really given.  Another union ploy.   

[fudgie]

One last. Mark and I have discussed why he has to fix problems on new cars caused by union workers at GM who make three times as much as he does plus benefits and yet they don't have over 50k in tools or the technical experience.

I live very close to GM and I have my reasons why that is.....

I knew a lady who worked at GM yrs ago. She worked in the 'water booth' where they check for leaks around doors, windows, etc. Saw her 1 night at a local bar. Was making small chat and she said I think I'll call in sick. She called in. Since she was the only one who worked in that dept I asked who takes her place. She says no one does. They just run them thru or skip that area. 

[Rams]

Since she was the only one who worked in that dept I asked who takes her place. She says no one does. They just run them thru or skip that area. 

So, what she just told you was that she was in one of those "Union" required jobs that had been forced on management to keep.   Obviously, if it were one needed for quality concerns, she would have had a back up...............

[The emperor has no clothes]

Since she was the only one who worked in that dept I asked who takes her place. She says no one does. They just run them thru or skip that area. 

So, what she just told you was that she was in one of those "Union" required jobs that had been forced on management to keep.   Obviously, if it were one needed for quality concerns, she would have had a back up...............

Hmm... I took it completely different. Sounded to me like she didn't have a good work ethic and had no problem with partying and calling in sick. Which in effect put their quality control in question. If they didn't put somebody in to replace her that is up to the company. Every Union shop I've been in had recourses for employees like that.

[Dad]

Was on 2nd shift in a union shop. Never saw Union reps until right to work passed. Right to work was the best thing that ever happened to the union worker. Union leadership had to earn your dues which meant they had to get off their butts.

[3fan4life]

Was on 2nd shift in a union shop. Never saw Union reps until right to work passed. Right to work was the best thing that ever happened to the union worker. Union leadership had to earn your dues which meant they had to get off their butts.

That's a very interesting perspective.

As greatly as it pains me to agree with Baldo or Daddie-o on any topic, I must agree at least in part with them here.

For the most part, "Right to Work" laws are the most Miss-Named Laws in the country.

VA is a right to work state which ultimately means that a worker can be fired without cause.

This seems to be the case in most if not all right to work states.

Since most people depend on their jobs to pay bills and to eat it does seem that you should have to "SCREW" up before you can be fired.


Unions were and are a "good" thing for the most part.

Over the years they have become corrupt with power and greed.  Which has led to their many failures and to most of the complaints lodged against them from both sides.

I've been a union member in the past (IAFF) and am sure that I benefitted from their efforts.

My ex-wife was a member of the (CWA) and I saw her job go to Mexico because of the union.


Unions have their place, but with great power comes great responsibility.

Clearly, unions have failed far too often when it comes to the responsibility part.  

 

[Jess Tolbirt]

i read all these union post and all i can think about is these guys (the union guys), voted for obama

[Black Pearl's Captain]

I came across this today, and found it interesting in light of MAD6Gun's recent ordeal...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/scott-walker-right-to-work-law-unconstitutional

I find it typical for Democrats (which Unions are) to use moves and ploys, frivolity and tactic's to get their way. I'm no Democrat so I'm no union supporter. I try to reason things myself so I decided years ago it would be a conflict of self interest to pay a Union money to have them give a big portion of it to some Democrat running to beat my Republican hopeful. Or sponsor a race car in Nascar. Pure waste of membership money without representation.

Another reason I don't really care for unions is because of all this tiered crap. The older union members get more benefits then the newer members. Huh? If your deal you made 15-30-50 thirty years ago didn't come to fruition make the new union "brother" pay for it with less benefits and wages! Quite the deal, the unions themselves have brought on lower wages for "fellow brothers" in the name of paying for "their" due rights. Maybe the old fat lazy guys didn't make the companies all that much more money....I'm already paying union members out of my pocket, GM and Chrysler (US and Canadian unions) propped up by good ol Uncle Sam come to mind.

[baldo]

As greatly as it pains me to agree with Baldo or Daddie-o on any topic, I must agree at least in part with them here.

See, that wasn't so bad, was it?

[The emperor has no clothes]

i read all these union post and all i can think about is these guys (the union guys), voted for obama

I think you would be mistaken on that. 

[CajunRider]

For the most part, "Right to Work" laws are the most Miss-Named Laws in the country.

VA is a right to work state which ultimately means that a worker can be fired without cause.

This seems to be the case in most if not all right to work states.

Since most people depend on their jobs to pay bills and to eat it does seem that you should have to "SCREW" up before you can be fired.

I'm not saying you are wrong... because, you're NOT... but consider the following:

There are two good things about being able to fire someone without cause (from a business standpoint)...  

1)
It SEVERELY reduces the possibility of frivolous lawsuits.  Someone screws up (like showing up drunk), gets fired, and the lawyers aren't so eager to throw in some "you fired a minority just for being different" lawsuit.  This complaint has to be proved by the one complaining (instead of disproved by the company).  

Of course, this is a double edged sword.  I HAVE seen people get fired for mouthing off to the boss, when the boss was in a bad mood and already didn't like the person who decided to mouth off.  They deserved punishment, but not as severe as being fired on the spot.  

"Right to work" has a second meaning... "Learn how to hold your tongue until opportune moments, and then speak softly and calmly".  

And I have also seen the person doing the "knee-jerk" firing get fired for said reaction... right after apologizing to the person he fired (that person was brought back the very next day by someone higher up).  

2)
When the company is in financial trouble (like ALL the oil & gas companies along the Gulf Coast right now), the company has the flexibility to reduce the work force as needed in order to avoid bankruptcy.  If the unions have to big a hold on the company, the company can easily go bankrupt.  

Again, a double edged sword...  It sucks that a lot of people have to be let go in times like this, but the alternative is that no one loses a job UNTIL 2 months later when the company goes bankrupt, shuts the doors, and EVERYONE is out of a job.  

And yes, I have also seen this happen.  In 2008, the company I was working for shut their doors.  WHILE I was on a job site in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico.  (Good luck getting paid for work completed when the company no longer exists.)

This time around, I still have a job... but I have seen half of the company disappear over the past year.  Sad to see that many people out of a job... but good to see the rest of us are still working (as opposed to 100% out of a job due to company closure).  

I'm not trying to change your mind on unions (they DO have their good points), but whether you agree or disagree with RTW laws, they do have some good points also.  

And keep in mind that RTW laws DO NOT outlaw unions.  Louisiana is a RTW state, but there ARE unions here.  RTW laws only keep unions from FORCING you to pay dues (which is what the first post here was about).  

[threevalks]

i read all these union post and all i can think about is these guys (the union guys), voted for obama

   

Wrong,              
             I am registered Independent. In the WV primary I can vote for whichever party I choose. Both Obama terms I voted in the Democrat primary and voted for a man that was and still is a federal prisoner in Texas. This man won the primary in WV. He is on our ballot again this year and I will vote for him again. Not Hillary or Bernie. Also West Virginia is a democrat state but have voted, as I have, for Republicans for president  at least the last two terms.  Obama is not well liked in WV.                                                                                                                                                                          

[art]

i read all these union post and all i can think about is these guys (the union guys), voted for obama

YOUR WRONG! I wouldn't vote for that idiot if he was the only one running.

[Daddie O]

Years ago I had a job as a waiter.  The job paid $3.85/hr plus tips.  The government automatically assumed I made 8 1/2% in tips on my total sales, and taxed me on that amount whether or not a customer tipped.  This meant my paychecks were coming to a grand total of $0.00.  Then out of my tips I had to pay a percentage to the busboys, and a percentage to the bartender.  As a non-union waiter, you get no sick days, no vacation days, no health insurance, no retirement, no holidays off.  The owner would complain that $3.85/hr was too much, and he wishes they would do away with minimum wage.  My paychecks were already $0.00, and I was subsidizing the labor of other employees with a portion of my tips.  The owner could replace you at any time for any reason.  Have a terrible case of the flu, and you can't find a replacement for your shift?  Kiss your job goodbye.  This is what a non-union job looks like.

[solo1]

Years ago I had a job as a waiter.  The job paid $3.85/hr plus tips.  The government automatically assumed I made 8 1/2% in tips on my total sales, and taxed me on that amount whether or not a customer tipped.  This meant my paychecks were coming to a grand total of $0.00.  Then out of my tips I had to pay a percentage to the busboys, and a percentage to the bartender.  As a non-union waiter, you get no sick days, no vacation days, no health insurance, no retirement, no holidays off.  The owner would complain that $3.85/hr was too much, and he wishes they would do away with minimum wage.  My paychecks were already $0.00, and I was subsidizing the labor of other employees with a portion of my tips.  The owner could replace you at any time for any reason.  Have a terrible case of the flu, and you can't find a replacement for your shift?  Kiss your job goodbye.  This is what a non-union job looks like.

Wrong!  You are talking about a entry level job, one that requires little or no experience.  Unfortunately that seems to be the average job today since many jobs are now out of country due to excessive high wages, high taxes, and bad decisions by industry.

I invested in education with my own money. I found non union paying jobs that were in demand and I was treated fairly with decent pay and benefits.  You can still find these jobs today IF you have skill and education to fill them.  It has nothing to do with unions and all to do with 'selling yourself' with what the companies want.

[Robert]

As with gov or any big institution mans greed gets the better of them. Its the old story people who get benefited from the union say they are great those that don't say they are crap. The problem is unions came into being to help people get fair wages and secure jobs. Now the bosses make a fortune and the workers have a sense of entitlement. GM was paying way to much to their employees and that is partially why they collapsed and we had to bail out GM.

 If unions got together and made things better for workers that was their job. I should not have to pay because someone decided to fight the system and I may or may not benefit unless I decide that its a good idea. Isn't that what choice is all about? Things are different today from when unions first started. They did benefit the worker in the beginning and did help but like any solution its not applicable to all situations.

If I take a job that I have to pay dues why not state what they negotiated when employing people. What my rights are that they negotiated so I can decide if I want to pay dues and know what I am getting for my hard earned money. What is the agreement that they draw up with me that gives me more rights than a non union employee that I pay for? I usually am given a choice if one item is better than another so I can decide if  I want it. Why should unions be any different? Then I am supporting a system that we see all to much in government today, NO ACCOUNTABILITY and vast sums of money being taken.   If you have to have a union that would meant the company will not pay a fair wage and help their workers so I need to have a lawyer full time when I take this position to assure that I will not get screwed by this company.

I also don't want to see workers not get a fair wage even for positions that have no skill, no training but these are not the ones the unions go after. Today the government does more for these workers than the union does, which should be the job of government.

I can tell you that more have been hurt by unions than helped. All who bought cars have paid more for those cars because the unions got the workers more money for an unskilled job than they should have gotten. We the US people paid more for that item because of this. I am not against unions I am against the sense of entitlement, greed, corrupt management of the unions, the same we have today in government.

I think unions are needed for some but they should be strictly controlled.

[baldo]

Years ago I had a job as a waiter.  The job paid $3.85/hr plus tips.  The government automatically assumed I made 8 1/2% in tips on my total sales, and taxed me on that amount whether or not a customer tipped.  This meant my paychecks were coming to a grand total of $0.00.  Then out of my tips I had to pay a percentage to the busboys, and a percentage to the bartender.  As a non-union waiter, you get no sick days, no vacation days, no health insurance, no retirement, no holidays off.  The owner would complain that $3.85/hr was too much, and he wishes they would do away with minimum wage.  My paychecks were already $0.00, and I was subsidizing the labor of other employees with a portion of my tips.  The owner could replace you at any time for any reason.  Have a terrible case of the flu, and you can't find a replacement for your shift?  Kiss your job goodbye.  This is what a non-union job looks like.

No thats what a shitty job looks like. I am non union and make very good wages. Well over 25 bucks an hour. Me and one of our electrical engineers thay is out of the country more than he is here are the only ones that know our part of the job.  Our owners or supervisors dont even have a clue. When im sick I still answer tons of questions from home. They know without my knowledge they would be screwed. I have been talking with them about hiring me an apprentice I can train so im not the only one that knows the job, it gets very hectic sometimes trying to keep up with it. My point is not all non union jobs look like your shitty waiter boy job. That was your own fault for taking the job. But like any good liberal you take it then bitch about how your treated when you knew first hand going in how it was.

Man, you are a real piece of work.

His first two words "Years ago" means that he took that job as a younger person. I worked as a waiter "Years ago" when I first started working on planes, as a second job. I made more money waiting tables than I did changing engines. That's the way it works sometimes when you're first starting out. Everybody has a less than stellar job "Years ago" until you start carving your own path. What kind of job did you have "Years ago"?  I'm sure it was just grand.

And it's good to see you were still able to get your trademark liberal slam in. Good job.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Hmm.... Gavin, it looks like you are regressing. 

[RainMaker]

I've worked in union jobs and in non-union jobs.  Neither one protected my employment.  In union jobs, tenure was all that mattered - productivity was not encouraged or rewarded.  In an aircraft landing gear company, I found a way to reduce an 8 hour job to 30-45 minutes.  My reward was being leaned on by the shop steward and veiled threats about my windshield's health.  When we went on strike, I walked the picket lines and went to the union meetings. I had the highest productivity of any burr turret operator (per the VP of HR) but was laid off with about 10 guys after that strike while others who had been there years with 1/2 the productivity were kept.  

I did have an interesting perspective - my girlfriend's dad (my future father-in-law) negotiated the contracts versus the union.  Turns out, he kept that plant open by granting reasonable raises and not caving in to all the union demands.  We have tape recordings of the meetings he kept that we found when he died - it's amazing how contentious those meetings were. When he retired, the union (International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers) demanded more and went on strike.  The plant then closed, all jobs were lost and the manufacturing moved to Cleveland. Almost 300 guys, union paying members, lost their jobs.

I worked for UPS for a while during college.  That union (Teamsters) worked hand-in-hand with management and encouraged productivity.  It never felt like an us versus them place.  

I have found that my non-union jobs depended on my value to the company.  If a layoff happened, those who worked hardest and had the greatest productivity were kept, those who just did their jobs were let go.  Tenure had no place in the decision (although nepotism did in a few cases). I lost 2 jobs due to the companies going bankrupt, 1 due to a division being eliminated and quit 2 jobs because I did not agree with management's direction.  

As a senior director and VP, it was always easier to keep good employees, pay them a fair wage (using comparative surveys for similar jobs in the area) and train them for higher positions than to fire them, pay unemployment and defend the occasional legal actions that might be brought.  It costs a lot to recruit and hire new employees - loss in productivity, training time to bring up to speed, team building, etc.  So even in a right to work state, it makes more sense to keep good employees than to just get rid of them for no reason.  It can be abused by poor management, but eventually the poor management will be removed or the company will fail.

If a union works with company management to improve the conditions of the employees and increase productivity, that's a great relationship and, imho, a good union.  If they are simply there to fight against the company, they will reduce productivity, increase the cost of goods and make America less competitive.  

These opinions are based upon my experiences - your opinion may differ due to your experiences.

[fudgie]

Years ago I had a job as a waiter.  The job paid $3.85/hr plus tips.  The government automatically assumed I made 8 1/2% in tips on my total sales, and taxed me on that amount whether or not a customer tipped.  This meant my paychecks were coming to a grand total of $0.00.  Then out of my tips I had to pay a percentage to the busboys, and a percentage to the bartender.  As a non-union waiter, you get no sick days, no vacation days, no health insurance, no retirement, no holidays off.  The owner would complain that $3.85/hr was too much, and he wishes they would do away with minimum wage.  My paychecks were already $0.00, and I was subsidizing the labor of other employees with a portion of my tips.  The owner could replace you at any time for any reason.  Have a terrible case of the flu, and you can't find a replacement for your shift?  Kiss your job goodbye.  This is what a non-union job looks like.

That's the way it is with some nudie bars. The dancer only make what the customers give them. But they also have to 'tip' the dj and bartender. I think they have to give each $40. So if the girls only made $85, they walk home with $5. If they make less then the $80 then they owe them and walk home with $0. I believe its the same for waitresses but they get a hourly rate like you mentioned.

[CajunRider]

His first two words "Years ago" means that he took that job as a younger person. I worked as a waiter "Years ago" when I first started working on planes, as a second job. I made more money waiting tables than I did changing engines. That's the way it works sometimes when you're first starting out. Everybody has a less than stellar job "Years ago" until you start carving your own path. What kind of job did you have "Years ago"?  I'm sure it was just grand.

Heh... you reminded me of my first job "years ago"... I made $1.00 per hour cash (cause I was too young to "legally" work).  My job was to pick peaches that would be sold later that day at the market. 

I learned a LOT at that job... with the biggest lesson being "Get and Education!!!!".  Seriously... picking peaches by hand in 100 degree heat and 99% humidity just plain SUCKED!!! 

Every day I would come home from the job and tell my dad that I was going to go to college.  This was 5 or 6 years before I graduated high school.       

[art]

This post is just like arguments about politics or religion, no one can win. I think the ans. is for a employer to pay a decent wage and hire supervisors that know the job and how to treat workers. The working man or woman deserves respect if he tries to do a good job . A worker should  lose his job if he is there just to collect a wage and goof off. I've seen both and have been in position to recommend firing for a employee being intoxicated. I've seen people take advantage of an employer because he was in the union. It all boils down to how you treat people.

[baldo]

This post is just like arguments about politics or religion, no one can win. I think the ans. is for a employer to pay a decent wage and hire supervisors that know the job and how to treat workers. The working man or woman deserves respect if he tries to do a good job . A worker should  lose his job if he is there just to collect a wage and goof off. I've seen both and have been in position to recommend firing for a employee being intoxicated. I've seen people take advantage of an employer because he was in the union. It all boils down to how you treat people.

This is exactly true. If a company treats their people well and has good ethics, there's no need for a union. My union experience has been in the airline industry. Years ago Delta was the airline to shoot for, the top of the heap. They treated their people well, paid them well, and never had a layoff. They were and remain non-union. I've heard that unions would try to get their foot in the door, but the employees never went for it. They were happy.

I work for a cargo company, not Brown. We're non-union and are ranked #2 in the industry, as far as wages and compensation. Brown is #1, a few more schekels per hour, 100% company paid healthcare, excellent retirement and they're union. Teamsters.

Every time they got a new contract at Brown, we'd get an increase to keep pace. This was simply to keep any rumblings of unions quashed. Our company credit union is called a credit ASSOCIATION....   That's changing now, all the passenger airlines are coming way up, pretty quickly. It's very surprising, for years they were substantially lower in wages paid.

As an employee, I absolutely love what I do, and feel I'm pretty good at it. I better be after 35 years. This is long winded, it wasn't meant to be. It goes back to my earlier post where I said that I'd prefer being represented by a union. They're not perfect, by any means. But I've seen where they can make a difference.

[RDAbull]

This post is just like arguments about politics or religion, no one can win. I think the ans. is for a employer to pay a decent wage and hire supervisors that know the job and how to treat workers. The working man or woman deserves respect if he tries to do a good job . A worker should  lose his job if he is there just to collect a wage and goof off. I've seen both and have been in position to recommend firing for a employee being intoxicated. I've seen people take advantage of an employer because he was in the union. It all boils down to how you treat people.

This is exactly true. If a company treats their people well and has good ethics, there's no need for a union. My union experience has been in the airline industry. Years ago Delta was the airline to shoot for, the top of the heap. They treated their people well, paid them well, and never had a layoff. They were and remain non-union. I've heard that unions would try to get their foot in the door, but the employees never went for it. They were happy.

I work for a cargo company, not Brown. We're non-union and are ranked #2 in the industry, as far as wages and compensation. Brown is #1, a few more schekels per hour, 100% company paid healthcare, excellent retirement and they're union. Teamsters.

Every time they got a new contract at Brown, we'd get an increase to keep pace. This was simply to keep any rumblings of unions quashed. Our company credit union is called a credit ASSOCIATION....   That's changing now, all the passenger airlines are coming way up, pretty quickly. It's very surprising, for years they were substantially lower in wages paid.

As an employee, I absolutely love what I do, and feel I'm pretty good at it. I better be after 35 years. This is long winded, it wasn't meant to be. It goes back to my earlier post where I said that I'd prefer being represented by a union. They're not perfect, by any means. But I've seen where they can make a difference.

So Baldo, you are in fact one of the working people who take advantage of the union benefits without having to pay the union dues.  Maybe you should send a donation to the teamsters over at Brown every month for helping you out.

[baldo]

This post is just like arguments about politics or religion, no one can win. I think the ans. is for a employer to pay a decent wage and hire supervisors that know the job and how to treat workers. The working man or woman deserves respect if he tries to do a good job . A worker should  lose his job if he is there just to collect a wage and goof off. I've seen both and have been in position to recommend firing for a employee being intoxicated. I've seen people take advantage of an employer because he was in the union. It all boils down to how you treat people.

This is exactly true. If a company treats their people well and has good ethics, there's no need for a union. My union experience has been in the airline industry. Years ago Delta was the airline to shoot for, the top of the heap. They treated their people well, paid them well, and never had a layoff. They were and remain non-union. I've heard that unions would try to get their foot in the door, but the employees never went for it. They were happy.

I work for a cargo company, not Brown. We're non-union and are ranked #2 in the industry, as far as wages and compensation. Brown is #1, a few more schekels per hour, 100% company paid healthcare, excellent retirement and they're union. Teamsters.

Every time they got a new contract at Brown, we'd get an increase to keep pace. This was simply to keep any rumblings of unions quashed. Our company credit union is called a credit ASSOCIATION....   That's changing now, all the passenger airlines are coming way up, pretty quickly. It's very surprising, for years they were substantially lower in wages paid.

As an employee, I absolutely love what I do, and feel I'm pretty good at it. I better be after 35 years. This is long winded, it wasn't meant to be. It goes back to my earlier post where I said that I'd prefer being represented by a union. They're not perfect, by any means. But I've seen where they can make a difference.

So Baldo, you are in fact one of the working people who take advantage of the union benefits without having to pay the union dues.  Maybe you should send a donation to the teamsters over at Brown every month for helping you out.

No RD, that's where you'd be wrong. This whole thread has been about RTW, with one of it's largest components being workers don't want to be forced to pay union dues. Please point out to me where I've said that I didn't want to pay dues. As I've said many times, I'd prefer to be represented by a union. In fact, I repeated it in the very post you're commenting on.

Nice try.

[Valkorado]

From today's news.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/13/technology/verizon-strike/

[RDAbull]

This post is just like arguments about politics or religion, no one can win. I think the ans. is for a employer to pay a decent wage and hire supervisors that know the job and how to treat workers. The working man or woman deserves respect if he tries to do a good job . A worker should  lose his job if he is there just to collect a wage and goof off. I've seen both and have been in position to recommend firing for a employee being intoxicated. I've seen people take advantage of an employer because he was in the union. It all boils down to how you treat people.

This is exactly true. If a company treats their people well and has good ethics, there's no need for a union. My union experience has been in the airline industry. Years ago Delta was the airline to shoot for, the top of the heap. They treated their people well, paid them well, and never had a layoff. They were and remain non-union. I've heard that unions would try to get their foot in the door, but the employees never went for it. They were happy.

I work for a cargo company, not Brown. We're non-union and are ranked #2 in the industry, as far as wages and compensation. Brown is #1, a few more schekels per hour, 100% company paid healthcare, excellent retirement and they're union. Teamsters.

Every time they got a new contract at Brown, we'd get an increase to keep pace. This was simply to keep any rumblings of unions quashed. Our company credit union is called a credit ASSOCIATION....   That's changing now, all the passenger airlines are coming way up, pretty quickly. It's very surprising, for years they were substantially lower in wages paid.

As an employee, I absolutely love what I do, and feel I'm pretty good at it. I better be after 35 years. This is long winded, it wasn't meant to be. It goes back to my earlier post where I said that I'd prefer being represented by a union. They're not perfect, by any means. But I've seen where they can make a difference.

So Baldo, you are in fact one of the working people who take advantage of the union benefits without having to pay the union dues.  Maybe you should send a donation to the teamsters over at Brown every month for helping you out.

No RD, that's where you'd be wrong. This whole thread has been about RTW, with one of it's largest components being workers don't want to be forced to pay union dues. Please point out to me where I've said that I didn't want to pay dues. As I've said many times, I'd prefer to be represented by a union. In fact, I repeated it in the very post you're commenting on.

Nice try.

You misunderstand, I didn't say you didn't want to pay union dues, I just offered a way in which you could voluntarily pay your fair share.

[baldo]

This post is just like arguments about politics or religion, no one can win. I think the ans. is for a employer to pay a decent wage and hire supervisors that know the job and how to treat workers. The working man or woman deserves respect if he tries to do a good job . A worker should  lose his job if he is there just to collect a wage and goof off. I've seen both and have been in position to recommend firing for a employee being intoxicated. I've seen people take advantage of an employer because he was in the union. It all boils down to how you treat people.

This is exactly true. If a company treats their people well and has good ethics, there's no need for a union. My union experience has been in the airline industry. Years ago Delta was the airline to shoot for, the top of the heap. They treated their people well, paid them well, and never had a layoff. They were and remain non-union. I've heard that unions would try to get their foot in the door, but the employees never went for it. They were happy.

I work for a cargo company, not Brown. We're non-union and are ranked #2 in the industry, as far as wages and compensation. Brown is #1, a few more schekels per hour, 100% company paid healthcare, excellent retirement and they're union. Teamsters.

Every time they got a new contract at Brown, we'd get an increase to keep pace. This was simply to keep any rumblings of unions quashed. Our company credit union is called a credit ASSOCIATION....   That's changing now, all the passenger airlines are coming way up, pretty quickly. It's very surprising, for years they were substantially lower in wages paid.

As an employee, I absolutely love what I do, and feel I'm pretty good at it. I better be after 35 years. This is long winded, it wasn't meant to be. It goes back to my earlier post where I said that I'd prefer being represented by a union. They're not perfect, by any means. But I've seen where they can make a difference.

So Baldo, you are in fact one of the working people who take advantage of the union benefits without having to pay the union dues.  Maybe you should send a donation to the teamsters over at Brown every month for helping you out.

No RD, that's where you'd be wrong. This whole thread has been about RTW, with one of it's largest components being workers don't want to be forced to pay union dues. Please point out to me where I've said that I didn't want to pay dues. As I've said many times, I'd prefer to be represented by a union. In fact, I repeated it in the very post you're commenting on.

Nice try.

You misunderstand, I didn't say you didn't want to pay union dues, I just offered a way in which you could voluntarily pay your fair share.

Lol, you're right, I did misunderstand your post. I probably should. Now the right way to do it would be to be putting their uniform on each day. But that, my friend, is incredibly difficult to do. Those jobs are very few and very far between.