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Author Topic: The pride/shooting/bathroom issue  (Read 612 times)
Oss
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« on: June 20, 2016, 03:36:57 PM »

So while in Portland I had to sit thru a guest speaker during the Friday evening Sabbath service

She was a professor at some college and expert on LGBTQ

Essentially she is what would be called "Liberal" around this place

It seemed to me that she was well versed in only one side, which incidentally seems to be the case often even on this board.

The irony that this speech was held in a synagogue where the torah (old testament) says things like "stone a man who lies with a man or beast" was heavy in the air to me as I suppose it would be if one were to hear the speech in a Baptist church or Catholic church

Without judging, it is apparent that the reform movement, especially in the west coast has no trouble reconciling the apparently opposite views and orders,

For myself, I do not care what a person wants to do behind closed doors if nobody is being forced or hurt.  I do not care if a woman wants to marry a woman or a man a man.  I do care if children may be harmed.

I also have a problem with the government legislating religion and in particular where government uses its power to fine or punish to enforce its own "enlightened" agenda. I have a problem with the concept that all schools MUST do this or that with bathrooms for instance and especially with locker rooms.  People who are undergoing, especially adolescents, self searching are prone to bullying and harassment. Their suicide rate is high, even after whatever steps they go thru in search of their identity. That they may need protection is something I can acknowledge

Perhaps one reasonable accomodation to me would be like with what we have in court house for people with kids

Its a one stall bathroom with a changing table. It would be available for all students if needed. If a man identifies as a woman or vice versa, well that is well and good for HIM/HER but I do not get the hysteria. The issue is not child abuse, that is just not what is going on as there is simply no data showing child abusers are gender amorphous or whatever you want to call it.

And the knee jerk reaction to take away guns also makes no sense to me as a result of the shooting

This same speaker refused to acknowedge the jihadist movement or that the Koran dictates death  to  gays. (I dont know the official Moslem view on transgender)  She did not acknowledge it in any way. She was only being critical of our government led by you know who

So in all I guess I am just saying that its another example of the - rearing its ugly face

the - separates and divides.

We, all of us, need to stop looking at one other as the enemy, the enemy is only those who want us to look at each other that way

I am an American, I am proud to be an American as I also am proud to be a member of this family, and my religion and  well you get it, I prefer to use the + sign and not the - sign

Who knows, maybe someday it will catch on
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 08:00:21 PM by Oss » Logged

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Valkorado
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2016, 04:07:14 PM »

Great observations, well thought out and written, Oss.   cooldude

I agree we're in this boat (and board) together, and united we stand.  I think division is getting worse in our country because the issues are becoming polarizing to an extreme.  You mentiond several.  It's unfortunate, but it's almost feeling like a civil war is brewing again.  I truly hope I am wrong.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 05:35:46 PM by Valkorado » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2016, 04:12:30 PM »

OSS, I thought this was the best written treatise I've seen on this. May I have your permission to share it? cooldude
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Oss
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2016, 08:21:47 PM »

Thank you gentlemen, and Eric the answer (you know) is yes

Hope you are enjoying retirement or at least summer vacation before MSF season.
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FryeVRCCDS0067
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 08:59:22 PM »

Very well said and well thought out.  cooldude
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3fan4life
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2016, 08:08:23 AM »

Oss this is very insightful.

Like you and many others I too do not know what the answer is.

I do think that the solution lies within the churches and not within government mandates that only infuriate people.


Most churches however have not done a good job of addressing the issue.

Too many have condemned the person instead of loving them.


Within our church the decision has been made to love them as they are without judgement or condemnation.

This does not mean that what the bible says about homosexuality isn't taught, addressed or is shied away from.


The Bible teaches that homosexual relations is a sin and we're not going to pretend that it isn't.

However, it is not an unforgiveable sin and it is not more grevious than any other sin.

God hates all sin and it is all the same in his eyes. With God there are no big sins or little sins, they are all the same.

While God hates sin he does not hate the sinner.

As Christians we believe that he loves us so much that he sent his only son to be tortured and crucified that we mave have a means to be forgiven of our sins.


It's really odd that you would bring this up at this time.

Just last night in Bible study we had a member of the LGBT community there with us.

At one point during the study she asked if it was true that God woould really forgive her of her sins.

When the pastor told her yes, she broke down and cried.

She has spent her life believing in God and wanting to go to Heaven when she dies but has been convinced by other religious people that her sins were too bad to be forgiven.

This led to a long exchange and discussion that I won't get into here. But it proved to be very moving and enlightening.


I guess my point is this:

Many of us religious folks have spent way too much time and energy condeming people because of their LGBT lifestyle.

We need to stop this if we are to ever have any hope of reaching these people.

If you are a Christian it is your job to witness to people about the love of Christ and nothing more.


Quit beating people over the head with the Bible and grant them the same grace that you want God to grant you.

It is not our job to clean people up.

If someone begins living their life for God the Holy Spirit will accomplish that.



As far as Government mandates such as forcing people to share public restrooms with someone of the opposite sex.

This is not the answer to a very complicated issue.

Just as more gun control will not prevent more mass shootings.

Government rarely if ever is able to truly solve problems such as these.

In my oppinion, if people would spend less time looking for the government to solve their problems and more time looking to God.

Our problems would be solved much more easily.

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G-Man
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2016, 01:47:18 PM »

 cooldude

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2016, 03:26:11 PM »

3fan4life, I agree with almost all that you say, with possibly the exception of the following:

God hates all sin and it is all the same in his eyes. With God there are no big sins or little sins, they are all the same.

While God hates sin he does not hate the sinner.

If you are a Christian it is your job to witness to people about the love of Christ and nothing more.

It is not our job to clean people up.

If someone begins living their life for God the Holy Spirit will accomplish that.

"God hates all sin and it is all the same in his eyes. With God there are no big sins or little sins, they are all the same."

All sin is NOT equal in God's eyes.  The most grievous sin is when we are perfectly clear about what God has commanded, then we do the opposite, working against His purposes.  The next most grievous is when we are perfectly clear about what God has commanded of us, then do not do it.  The least grievous is when we are unaware of his explicit command, and do not follow it.  They are all the same in that they all lead to our condemnation, as God is holy and cannot permit even the slightest sin in His presence, and in that all are forgivable by Him if we repent and believe, but we are all judged according to our works; the unsaved are judged and punished according to their sinful works, and the saved are rewarded according to their righteous works, their sin having been atoned for and taken off of their account at the Cross.

Luke 12:42-48 (ESV), 42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Matthew 16:27 (ESV), "For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done."

2 Corinthians 5:10 (ESV), "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (ESV), "11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

"While God hates sin he does not hate the sinner."

This statement simply is not supported by scripture.  He hates unrepentant, unbelieving sinners.  He loves His elect, those who love Him.

Proverbs 8:17 (ESV), "I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me."

Acts 10:34-35 (ESV), So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

Psalm 5:5 (NASB), "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"

Psalm 11:5(NASB), "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23(NASB), "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19(NASB), 16 There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.

Hosea 9:15(NASB), "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

"If you are a Christian it is your job to witness to people about the love of Christ and nothing more."

If we did that, no one would be convinced of their need to repent, believe, and be saved.  They would all assume that because God is Love, He couldn't possibly condemn them, whose good outweighs their bad.  There is no requirement for discipleship and no fear of wrath.  We need to preach the "whole counsel of God." (Acts 20:27)

"It is not our job to clean people up.  If someone begins living their life for God the Holy Spirit will accomplish that."

It IS our job to encourage and admonish our fellow believers.  The Holy Spirit uses the body of Christ as one of His means of accomplishing the sanctification of believers.

Psalm 141:5 (ESV), "Let a righteous man strike me—it is a kindness; let him rebuke me—it is oil for my head; let my head not refuse it. Yet my prayer is continually against their evil deeds."

1 Thessalonians 5:14 (NASB), "We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone."

Luke 17:3 (NASB), ""Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I find troubling about the GLBTQ effort, that is significantly different from the efforts of many others that openly practise what the Bible calls "sin" but that secular society has no sanction against, is that the GLBTQ community has sought to change the ideas of what constitutes right and wrong to the degree that people who take their values from the Bible are being vilified as "hateful".  It won't be long before churches will be accused, under the law, of spreading hate simply for preaching scriptural truth about sin.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 03:28:13 PM by Gryphon Rider » Logged
Oss
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2016, 06:27:31 PM »

IMHO If you just posted that last paragraph Gryphon, the point would be spot on with the intent of the original poster, myself.

The rest, well it is evangelical isnt it?

Just as the LGBTQ is in its own way

Since you 3fan and Robert are always interested in quoting various scripture I will simply remind you of what Saul did not do that lead to David reigning to say that yes I believe there is a sin grey scale but I do not suppose to be so empowed as to know the true answers.
  PM me if you want to discuss this stuff but please lets not take a thread hijack down the road.
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If you don't know where your going any road will take you there
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When you come to the fork in the road, take it
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 10:21:35 PM »

Sorry for the hijack, Oss. Yes, I have my moments of evangelical enthusiasm, but in this case I'm concerned that God's word is used to inform us of what He thinks, rather than popular but unbiblical expressions. While God hasn't revealed all to us, He has revealed enough for us to speak and act confidently regarding many things. I am most interested in what He considers to be a + or a -.

I'll refrain from further commenting in this thread, but will respond should anyone wish to PM me.

Hashem yevarech otha.
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