Halal Bagels?

[Momz]

As some of you may know, I live in an area that has a large muslim population. I've grown up surrounded by middle eastern peoples of which the majority were not Christian. My parents had many dealings with the local Jewish community while I was growing up and I was exposed to bits of the Jewish culture.

But today in Dearborn and Dearborn Hts. MI, there is a movement to become a more muslim centered society. That means that resturants will no longer serve pork products and offer Halal meats instead. There are other changes such as removing pictures that show renderings of individuals and animals, street signs to be in "arabic" as well as movements toward "sharia".

Yet yesterday a received a coupon in the mail for "New York Bagels". The coupon gave one four free bagels with the purchase of two at regular price. That seemed like a pretty good deal.  On my way home today, I stopped in and wanted to use my "free bagels" coupon, and I saw a sign on the wall stating that this establishment was a "Halal bakery".

As a child (and into adulthood) my family treated my brother and I to bagels whenever the traveled through the cities of Southfield and Oak Park that had (at least at that time) a large Jewish community. Whenever I went to New York City we'd go to the Jewish deli's and bakerys, so I am no stranger to good Jewish foods. To this day I still enjoy bagels for breakfast and I've loved the "Einstein Bro's" Monday special (13 bagels for $6.00).

I was always under the impression that bagels were a Jewish celebratory bread (see Wikipedia), but now I found this new Halal Bagel bakery.

Can someone please set me straight,.......Halal Bagels?   I'm dumbfounded,....or am I just confused?  

[mike72903]

I had to look up Halal.  Nearest I can make out is that it is Halal means "permitted" in its broadest sense and more consisely, that an animal was slaughtered by cutting its throat.  Not sure why that has to do with a bagel other than its not forbidden to eat.  I don't believe true bagels have any kind of animal fat in them.  I live in a town in Arkansas rapidly moving into the 1980's and just wish there was a place to get good bagels halal or not. 

[Serk]

Halal is basically the Islamic equivalent of Kosher.

(And IMHO I avoid buying Halal meat, the way they prescribe the animal be slaughtered is unnecessarily cruel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_dietary_laws

[Oss]

As  I sit here eating my 2nd sunday morning egg bagel with whitefish salad and lox I really feel your pain CI_borg and Momz

This is a really really good bagel too

If you make my Columbus day ride I can promise you NY bagels.    that to the best of my knowledge are not halal.  I also can not promise they are kosher as have never heard the term used to bagels.

But you will have to put up with being in NY to do that  

[Chrisj CMA]

plain one with ham and cheese might not go over very well 

[The emperor has no clothes]

As  I sit here eating my 2nd sunday morning egg bagel with whitefish salad and lox I really feel your pain CI_borg and Momz

This is a really really good bagel too

If you make my Columbus day ride I can promise you NY bagels.    that to the best of my knowledge are not halal.  I also can not promise they are kosher as have never heard the term used to bagels.

But you will have to put up with being in NY to do that  

I don't even like bagels. But I'll try one.  My wife loves them though, so I'm sure she'll be excited.

[Bighead]

Momz if I lived there the air would be filled with the smell of cooking PORK I like a good BBQ

[..]

Halal is basically the Islamic equivalent of Kosher.

(And IMHO I avoid buying Halal meat, the way they prescribe the animal be slaughtered is unnecessarily cruel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_dietary_laws

I've just watched a video of cows being slaughtered "halal" style.

Don't hear much from PETA of any of the prevention of cruelty to animal charities about this.

AND BEFORE some of you get panty wadded YOU take a look at this video and tell me if you think it isn't cruel. WATCH IT ALL.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=703_1309045039

Why oh why can't they use a "humane" killer.

[..]

If any want to get bowed up and say that can't happen here.

http://www.halalfarmsusa.com/

[Oss]

contrast that with the rules of kashruth  How to kosher kill an animal so it feels as little pain as possible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shechita

[Moonshot_1]

Back in the day, I used to work for a local locker plant and was part of the slaughtering operations. Was in the retail meat cutting field for over 25 years after that.

Yes, this kind of slaughter appears to be brutal. But the hypocrisy here is a bit amusing to me.

Slitting the throat of an animal appears brutal but the reality is if the knife is sharp, there is virtually no pain involved and death within minutes or less.

Blasting a fist sized hole in the side of deer or elk and having it run till it dies, not much problem stomaching that. This assuming a good shot. Betcha it hurts like hell too. Bad shot, bet it hurts like hell a long time.

Ranked on the Humane scale which one is better, which is worse?

I guess being in this "industry" for a while I don't find this shocking or disturbing at all. Do I wish they would do it differently and more in line with current standards? Sure. Does it bother me that they are following a tradition like this? No, not really.

[Jess from VA]

With two tours in the Middle East, I discovered the basic essential and center of all daily meals was bread (in all of it's forms) throughout all of the Middle East (grain and bread has been the cheap food of the masses since before Biblical times, and remains part of Christian unleavened communion).  

Forget the religion (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox) or politics, bread in many forms is the basic element of every meal.  Turkey had bagel-like hard bread pretzels, with a variety of sprinkles/toppings, carried around on heaping platters and sold by ones and threes.  We never ate them from the walking vendors, because the platters were often spilled in the street, and always just put back on the platter. They didn't even blow them off.  On the other hand, their hand made bakery bread is the finest in the world, and when I arrived there in 1986 was 12 cents (American) a loaf.  You got fresh made every morning, and threw out what you didn't eat.  No preservatives and it didn't last.

Bagels is bread.  

I don't care for them.  They are more like tennis balls than bread to my palate.  

[..]

Back in the day, I used to work for a local locker plant and was part of the slaughtering operations. Was in the retail meat cutting field for over 25 years after that.

Yes, this kind of slaughter appears to be brutal. But the hypocrisy here is a bit amusing to me.

Slitting the throat of an animal appears brutal but the reality is if the knife is sharp, there is virtually no pain involved and death within minutes or less.

Blasting a fist sized hole in the side of deer or elk and having it run till it dies, not much problem stomaching that. This assuming a good shot. Betcha it hurts like hell too. Bad shot, bet it hurts like hell a long time.

Ranked on the Humane scale which one is better, which is worse?

I guess being in this "industry" for a while I don't find this shocking or disturbing at all. Do I wish they would do it differently and more in line with current standards? Sure. Does it bother me that they are following a tradition like this? No, not really.

Death within minutes. Let's try that on you. 

One is commercial and sanctioned by a "religion".

The other is the choice of one person.

Back to my original point why can't they use a humane killer?

Where's the hypocrisy?

[cookiedough]

sorry your neighborhood around you is changing sounding like NOT for the better.

I'd be moving if I lived there,  I MUST have pork and bacon and ham - PIG is good!! 

Bagels plain are not good, but load them up with butter and eggs and peanut butter and any other toppings and you got a good meal! 

[MP]

Back in the day, I used to work for a local locker plant and was part of the slaughtering operations. Was in the retail meat cutting field for over 25 years after that.

Yes, this kind of slaughter appears to be brutal. But the hypocrisy here is a bit amusing to me.

Slitting the throat of an animal appears brutal but the reality is if the knife is sharp, there is virtually no pain involved and death within minutes or less.

Blasting a fist sized hole in the side of deer or elk and having it run till it dies, not much problem stomaching that. This assuming a good shot. Betcha it hurts like hell too. Bad shot, bet it hurts like hell a long time.

Ranked on the Humane scale which one is better, which is worse?

I guess being in this "industry" for a while I don't find this shocking or disturbing at all. Do I wish they would do it differently and more in line with current standards? Sure. Does it bother me that they are following a tradition like this? No, not really.

Death within minutes. Let's try that on you. 

One is commercial and sanctioned by a "religion".

The other is the choice of one person.

Back to my original point why can't they use a humane killer?

Where's the hypocrisy?

The reason they slit the throat, is to let the animal bleed out.  If the animal is not bled, there is a LOT more blood in the meat you buy.  It comes out in the cooking, and it also leaks out while packaged.  People do NOT want bloody meat.  Packages that are bloody in the cooler case will NOT be bought, and people do NOT like lots of blood coming out while cooking.  It also shortens the life of the meat in your refrigerator at home.  We bought a couple steaks the other day that had not been bled right.  The frying pan had more cooking blood in it than I have ever seen before!

People are so removed from how food gets processed anymore, they do not understand.  Go back a hundred years and more, and a high percentage of the population lived on farms and small towns, and grew up with births, deaths, slaughtering, etc.  They understood.  So many now are one or more generations removed from how food is actually produced, that the process is not understood.

Those few of us left that are in that yet, are constantly having to battle "city folk" that simply have no idea how things work out here.  Just as I have a hard time in a big city.

[Gavin_Sons]

Back in the day, I used to work for a local locker plant and was part of the slaughtering operations. Was in the retail meat cutting field for over 25 years after that.

Yes, this kind of slaughter appears to be brutal. But the hypocrisy here is a bit amusing to me.

Slitting the throat of an animal appears brutal but the reality is if the knife is sharp, there is virtually no pain involved and death within minutes or less.

Blasting a fist sized hole in the side of deer or elk and having it run till it dies, not much problem stomaching that. This assuming a good shot. Betcha it hurts like hell too. Bad shot, bet it hurts like hell a long time.

Ranked on the Humane scale which one is better, which is worse?

I guess being in this "industry" for a while I don't find this shocking or disturbing at all. Do I wish they would do it differently and more in line with current standards? Sure. Does it bother me that they are following a tradition like this? No, not really.

Death within minutes. Let's try that on you. 

One is commercial and sanctioned by a "religion".

The other is the choice of one person.

Back to my original point why can't they use a humane killer?

Where's the hypocrisy?

The reason they slit the throat, is to let the animal bleed out.  If the animal is not bled, there is a LOT more blood in the meat you buy.  It comes out in the cooking, and it also leaks out while packaged.  People do NOT want bloody meat.  Packages that are bloody in the cooler case will NOT be bought, and people do NOT like lots of blood coming out while cooking.  It also shortens the life of the meat in your refrigerator at home.  We bought a couple steaks the other day that had not been bled right.  The frying pan had more cooking blood in it than I have ever seen before!

People are so removed from how food gets processed anymore, they do not understand.  Go back a hundred years and more, and a high percentage of the population lived on farms and small towns, and grew up with births, deaths, slaughtering, etc.  They understood.  So many now are one or more generations removed from how food is actually produced, that the process is not understood.

Those few of us left that are in that yet, are constantly having to battle "city folk" that simply have no idea how things work out here.  Just as I have a hard time in a big city.

when we butcher hogs every year we shoot them with a 22 behind the ear. drops them like a rock. we then hang them from the skid steer and bleed them into a pan for blood pudding. These people could at least shoot them then slit their throats. But no, instead let them suffer for several minutes before death. Everyone knows the suffering makes the meat taste better.

[..]

Back in the day, I used to work for a local locker plant and was part of the slaughtering operations. Was in the retail meat cutting field for over 25 years after that.

Yes, this kind of slaughter appears to be brutal. But the hypocrisy here is a bit amusing to me.

Slitting the throat of an animal appears brutal but the reality is if the knife is sharp, there is virtually no pain involved and death within minutes or less.

Blasting a fist sized hole in the side of deer or elk and having it run till it dies, not much problem stomaching that. This assuming a good shot. Betcha it hurts like hell too. Bad shot, bet it hurts like hell a long time.

Ranked on the Humane scale which one is better, which is worse?

I guess being in this "industry" for a while I don't find this shocking or disturbing at all. Do I wish they would do it differently and more in line with current standards? Sure. Does it bother me that they are following a tradition like this? No, not really.

Death within minutes. Let's try that on you. 

One is commercial and sanctioned by a "religion".

The other is the choice of one person.

Back to my original point why can't they use a humane killer?

Where's the hypocrisy?

The reason they slit the throat, is to let the animal bleed out.  If the animal is not bled, there is a LOT more blood in the meat you buy.  It comes out in the cooking, and it also leaks out while packaged.  People do NOT want bloody meat.  Packages that are bloody in the cooler case will NOT be bought, and people do NOT like lots of blood coming out while cooking.  It also shortens the life of the meat in your refrigerator at home.  We bought a couple steaks the other day that had not been bled right.  The frying pan had more cooking blood in it than I have ever seen before!

People are so removed from how food gets processed anymore, they do not understand.  Go back a hundred years and more, and a high percentage of the population lived on farms and small towns, and grew up with births, deaths, slaughtering, etc.  They understood.  So many now are one or more generations removed from how food is actually produced, that the process is not understood.

Those few of us left that are in that yet, are constantly having to battle "city folk" that simply have no idea how things work out here.  Just as I have a hard time in a big city.

when we butcher hogs every year we shoot them with a 22 behind the ear. drops them like a rock. we then hang them from the skid steer and bleed them into a pan for blood pudding. These people could at least shoot them then slit their throats. But no, instead let them suffer for several minutes before death. Everyone knows the suffering makes the meat taste better.

Yep.

I've killed pigs and sheep.

[Robert]

Love a good cinnamon raisin or onion, bagel in the morning cream cheese or butter or peanut butter. Like Oss some Lox, capers maybe also with an egg is just great. There are a couple of NY style restaurants/deli around that have good bagels.




This is a from Wikipedia

The animal may be stunned prior to having its throat cut. The UK Food Standards Agency figures from 2011 suggest that 84% of cattle, 81% of sheep and 88% of chickens slaughtered for halal meat were stunned before they died. Supermarkets selling halal products also report that all animals are stunned before they are slaughtered. Tesco, for example, says "the only difference between the halal meat it sells and other meat is that it was blessed as it was killed." The British Veterinary Association, along with citizens who have assembled a petition with 100,000 signatures, have raised concerns regarding a proposed halal abattoir in Wales, in which animals are not to be stunned prior to killing. Concern about slaughtering, without prior stunning, has resulted in the religious slaughter of animals being banned in Denmark, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland.

Actually interesting is the fact that Muslims before Mohamed were children of Abraham.
Gen 16:11  And the angel also said, "You are now pregnant and will give birth to a son. You are to name him Ishmael (which means 'God hears'), for the LORD has heard your cry of distress.
Gen 16:12  This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives."

When you get down to it if God says it then there is no changing it. Plain and simple and a good reason why there does not seem to an understanding of why there is no peace in the Mideast.

[MP]

Back in the day, I used to work for a local locker plant and was part of the slaughtering operations. Was in the retail meat cutting field for over 25 years after that.

Yes, this kind of slaughter appears to be brutal. But the hypocrisy here is a bit amusing to me.

Slitting the throat of an animal appears brutal but the reality is if the knife is sharp, there is virtually no pain involved and death within minutes or less.

Blasting a fist sized hole in the side of deer or elk and having it run till it dies, not much problem stomaching that. This assuming a good shot. Betcha it hurts like hell too. Bad shot, bet it hurts like hell a long time.

Ranked on the Humane scale which one is better, which is worse?

I guess being in this "industry" for a while I don't find this shocking or disturbing at all. Do I wish they would do it differently and more in line with current standards? Sure. Does it bother me that they are following a tradition like this? No, not really.

Death within minutes. Let's try that on you. 

One is commercial and sanctioned by a "religion".

The other is the choice of one person.

Back to my original point why can't they use a humane killer?

Where's the hypocrisy?

The reason they slit the throat, is to let the animal bleed out.  If the animal is not bled, there is a LOT more blood in the meat you buy.  It comes out in the cooking, and it also leaks out while packaged.  People do NOT want bloody meat.  Packages that are bloody in the cooler case will NOT be bought, and people do NOT like lots of blood coming out while cooking.  It also shortens the life of the meat in your refrigerator at home.  We bought a couple steaks the other day that had not been bled right.  The frying pan had more cooking blood in it than I have ever seen before!

People are so removed from how food gets processed anymore, they do not understand.  Go back a hundred years and more, and a high percentage of the population lived on farms and small towns, and grew up with births, deaths, slaughtering, etc.  They understood.  So many now are one or more generations removed from how food is actually produced, that the process is not understood.

Those few of us left that are in that yet, are constantly having to battle "city folk" that simply have no idea how things work out here.  Just as I have a hard time in a big city.

when we butcher hogs every year we shoot them with a 22 behind the ear. drops them like a rock. we then hang them from the skid steer and bleed them into a pan for blood pudding. These people could at least shoot them then slit their throats. But no, instead let them suffer for several minutes before death. Everyone knows the suffering makes the meat taste better.

Commercial slaughter houses use what they call a "bolt".  It is an air operated  "bolt".  They put it to the cows forehead, and a "bolt" darts out, and knocks them out.  Then they are bled.  So, instantanously, at least as fast, or faster if you do not shoot them just right, the animal is feeling no pain. So, there is no "suffering", as you put it.

I have seen animals shot, that do not pass out right away.  Not always easy to put them down instanously.  There is much more risk of "suffering" there, than the bolt.

If somehow you are inferring I want, or like, the animal to suffer, you are dead wrong.

[Momz]

I don't believe that there is any "animal products" used in making bagels (I could be mistaken).

After checking "Halal" on the internet, I could not find any references to baked goods.
There were a few references on mixing dairy and meat in the Kosher rules.

I believe that bagels are considered "Jewish" and pita bread is baked by all types of mid-eastern and eastern european peoples.
So could pita bread be labeled as "Kosher"? Or could it be that there are people trying to "blur the lines" for sheer comercialism?

[mike72903]

For sheer commercialism?  Surely not.  An interesting fact about bagel consumption is that cuts to the palm from slicing a bagel are a pretty common incident seen in emergency rooms.  So maybe a Halal bagel is one that comes unsliced requiring the buyer to draw his own blood in the process of cutting it in two. ⛑

[Stanc770]

I read this thread and the takeaway for me was somewhat different. While I enjoy many different types of food and certainly believe all food animals should be humanely dispatched, I feel distressed that yet another sector of the American way of life is being altered to please an immigrant intrusion.

Were I to move to another country I would expect to adapt to their way of life, language and customs. We have seemingly propagated a stance in this country that we will change to suit your needs. I know people in Miami/South Florida That have been here since Castro took over Cuba and cannot/will not speak our language and others in different parts of the US that cannot/wii not do the same.

I never thought of myself as a bigot but, maybe I am. I have heard and seen so much of the evil side of Muslim life that I have a hard time accepting these people on any level as permanent residents of this country. Most of the recent attacks from that sector have been by homegrown American born Muslims.

How can you reconcile the element of trust with those actions? I don't know how.

I know this is and has been the principles of this country to accept those that are downtrodden, the thing I cannot accept is, welcoming, helping and nurturing a people regardless of origin and them turning on  us from within.

[Momz]

I read this thread and the takeaway for me was somewhat different. While I enjoy many different types of food and certainly believe all food animals should be humanely dispatched, I feel distressed that yet another sector of the American way of life is being altered to please an immigrant intrusion.

Were I to move to another country I would expect to adapt to their way of life, language and customs. We have seemingly propagated a stance in this country that we will change to suit your needs. I know people in Miami/South Florida That have been here since Castro took over Cuba and cannot/will not speak our language and others in different parts of the US that cannot/wii not do the same.

I never thought of myself as a bigot but, maybe I am. I have heard and seen so much of the evil side of Muslim life that I have a hard time accepting these people on any level as permanent residents of this country. Most of the recent attacks from that sector have been by homegrown American born Muslims.

How can you reconcile the element of trust with those actions? I don't know how.

I know this is and has been the principles of this country to accept those that are downtrodden, the thing I cannot accept is, welcoming, helping and nurturing a people regardless of origin and them turning on  us from within.

I have to agree

[Willow]

...
Were I to move to another country I would expect to adapt to their way of life, language and customs. We have seemingly propagated a stance in this country that we will change to suit your needs. I know people in Miami/South Florida That have been here since Castro took over Cuba and cannot/will not speak our language and others in different parts of the US that cannot/wii not do the same.

I never thought of myself as a bigot but, maybe I am. ...

It's interesting but not so very long ago the Choctaw felt the same way.

There is certainly an element of bigotry in many of us.  It stems from a belief that our own culture and our own heritage is superior to those of others.  In the past a large number of immigrants, beyond that first wave, came to our country because they were dissatisfied with their live's opportunities where they were.  It was somewhat easy for them to adopt the ways and language of the land that offered them improved lives.  Today we in the U.S. of A. are being invaded by two specific groups.  One is a group from the south that believes a large portion, if not all, of this land was stolen from their ancestors.  They believe themselves to be entitled to not only the land but the wealth of our country.  The other group has a deep set religious belief that they are the select peoples of a particular diety and that they are destined to occupy and rule not only this country but the entire world.  Neither of these groups is highly motivated to assimilate.

If we, the people and government of the U. S. of A., continue to treat these groups, these self entitled immigrants, as if they were the downtrodden masses of the past centuries then we are the ones destined, destined to be overrun, destined to be replaced.

I wonder where and how would the Choctaw be had they chosen to and successfully resisted?   

[mike72903]

...
Were I to move to another country I would expect to adapt to their way of life, language and customs. We have seemingly propagated a stance in this country that we will change to suit your needs. I know people in Miami/South Florida That have been here since Castro took over Cuba and cannot/will not speak our language and others in different parts of the US that cannot/wii not do the same.

I never thought of myself as a bigot but, maybe I am. ...

It's interesting but not so very long ago the Choctaw felt the same way.

There is certainly an element of bigotry in many of us.  It stems from a belief that our own culture and our own heritage is superior to those of others.  In the past a large number of immigrants, beyond that first wave, came to our country because they were dissatisfied with their live's opportunities where they were.  It was somewhat easy for them to adopt the ways and language of the land that offered them improved lives.  Today we in the U.S. of A. are being invaded by two specific groups.  One is a group from the south that believes a large portion, if not all, of this land was stolen from their ancestors.  They believe themselves to be entitled to not only the land but the wealth of our country.  The other group has a deep set religious belief that they are the select peoples of a particular diety and that they are destined to occupy and rule not only this country but the entire world.  Neither of these groups is highly motivated to assimilate.

If we, the people and government of the U. S. of A., continue to treat these groups, these self entitled immigrants, as if they were the downtrodden masses of the past centuries then we are the ones destined, destined to be overrun, destined to be replaced.

I wonder where and how would the Choctaw be had they chosen to and successfully resisted?   

No telling.  Your mention of it sent me to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Dancing_Rabbit_Creek turns out they were at least successful in the negotiations getting some prime real estate in Indian territory. Those that chose to stay in Mississippi were granted US citizenship.  I learn something most days.  Of course the trail of tears journey was awful.