500 S&W Mag (don't forget to hold your mouth right)

[solo1]

I am quoting Maas Ayoob.  I'm also not sure if he ever testified in a case involving a shooting with reloads.  However, no problem for me. Hornady Critical Defense in .40 are expensive but I don't practice with them, not when I can get Fioochi JHP 165 grainers for $315 for 1,000.  Same point of impact.

I do not like to discuss legal stuff and ammo on the forum.Why? because it's so easy to forget something or say something vague and then get a reply pointing that out.

It's much easier to discuss in person because of the huge amount of info on firearms. Not meant as being po'd just the forum has limited use and not close to verbal one on one.

Too bad that we can't have a roundtable in person. I'd enjoy that.

BTW, telling Chris about 7,000 grains/pound should be really helpful to know prices.

[Gavin_Sons]

depending on what powder he would choose to use would give a pretty accurate price for powder per round.

here is my breakdown for my 44 mag's

$0.25 per casing
$0.03 per primer
$0.13 powder per casing
$0.23 per projectile

$0.64 reload, of cour.se after the initial cost of new casings that cost will kind of demish. I could break it down even further. Say i get 15 rounds out of a casing before it splits or is no longer safe to reload. Then my casing price would go down to about 1.5 cents per round. Therefore leaving me with a total cost of about $0.41. less than half of cheap winchester. 

[solo1]

Gavin, just for comparison. My cost /round in bulk buying (1,000 rounds) for .40 165 gr. was 38 cents , boxer primed Fioochi brass.  Shipping was $22.00

Same company that I order from, 180 grain JSP Remington, boxer primed brass, 500 rounds, .44Mag  59 cents. You would end up with 500 reloadable brass.  Shipping extra but unknown.

Just a thought.

[Varmintmist]

I am quoting Maas Ayoob.  

I know he wrote it and it has been bandied about since before the interwebs. As far as I know there has never been a case where it it happened in the real world.

BTW, telling Chris about 7,000 grains/pound should be really helpful to know prices.

When you are loading for 3 people to go to a match, knowing what you can get out of a pound can be important. I think when I took the kids out last time, I had about 700 loaded. Sometimes it is a question of how many pounds will I use tonight if I procrastinate.

[Gavin_Sons]

Gavin, just for comparison. My cost /round in bulk buying (1,000 rounds) for .40 165 gr. was 38 cents , boxer primed Fioochi brass.  Shipping was $22.00

Same company that I order from, 180 grain JSP Remington, boxer primed brass, 500 rounds, .44Mag  59 cents. You would end up with 500 reloadable brass.  Shipping extra but unknown.

Just a thought.

What site is that wayne? That seems to be a very fair price for loaded ammo.

[solo1]

http://www.luckygunner.com/bulk-ammo?utm_source=Customers&utm_campaign=756e8e2a21-Autroresponder_10_Day_Thank_You_Serious&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6a4f77dab2-756e8e2a21-292453273

Also very prompt in shipping.  For me it's two days.  They also have complete gelatin results for most pistol ammo, penetration ,expansion, pics of mushroomed bullets.  Quite helpful.

wayne

[The emperor has no clothes]

Dang, they've got some good prices ! Thanks for the link. 

[Crackerborn]

Another source for reasonably priced ammo is:

http://www.sgammo.com

Out of one of the four states I have yet to ride in, so now it is motorcycle related also.   

[Gavin_Sons]

http://www.luckygunner.com/bulk-ammo?utm_source=Customers&utm_campaign=756e8e2a21-Autroresponder_10_Day_Thank_You_Serious&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6a4f77dab2-756e8e2a21-292453273

Also very prompt in shipping.  For me it's two days.  They also have complete gelatin results for most pistol ammo, penetration ,expansion, pics of mushroomed bullets.  Quite helpful.

wayne

Thanks Wayne. Saved for future reference. Those are some great prices. 

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

For the best non dealer prices (and frequently better than prices I can get as a dealer) on ammo you are likely to find try gunbot.net

You can search by $$ per round of a specific in-stock caliber and find some great deals.

I personally like to buy from https://gooseislandsales.com/index.asp when I can. Usually very good prices and although I don't see it on the webpage now I seem to remember it's owned by three veterans, I could be wrong about that though, you know how old guys memories can be. I found them by using gunbot.net

[henry 008]

I usually go here 1st

http://ammoseek.com/

I can quickly find out the lowest price/rnd and then I'll shop locally and get someone to come close to a good price and go from there. I've never purchased ammo over the net.

[solo1]

If I only want one box of ammo, retail is fine.  Bulk, I'll  go online.   Not worth the trouble for me to compare prices.

[Gavin_Sons]

This is my Rossi 44 mag. Just put the rail and reflex sight on it this morning. Got it bore sighted with a laser and ready togo fine tune it with some live ammo.

[Gavin_Sons]

And the raging bull

[solo1]

Here is another answer to some kind of a question

This is my, ready for this?,  Hi Point .40 cal carbine.   Red/green 2 minute dot scope.  Dispensed with the witness sights to keep it simpler. Nine 10 round mags, one in stock, two on stock mounts. Yes, they are only 10 round mags but I can change them quickly, and yes, I'm aware of the KelTec that uses Glock mags. The silver box on the stock by the butt,  houses two extra lithium coin batteries.

i have fired 20 rounds of 165 gr JHP at 50 yards bench with a group of 2.5 inches for all 20.  The Hipoint is broken in and has been completely reliable. It certainly is ugly but functional.  It is certainly heavy but has less recoil.  Overall, A very good cheaper investment.

Yes, I'm aware of lots and lots of pistol carbines out there but I chose this one and I'm glad that I did.

[Gavin_Sons]

Those Hi-Point carbines are nice. I have never heard a complaint on them. Haven't gone looking for complaints either.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

If I was buying a pistol caliber carbine, the Hi Point would be my choice too...... unless I hit the lottery. 

[cookiedough]

I have a Ruger M77 in .243 that is one sweet shooting gun. has killed many groundhog. It will be tested out on deer this year with 100 grain bullets.

for such a smaller bullet with very good speed and flatter trajectory,  the .243 has plenty of knockdown energy to kill deer.  I was skeptical at first but some 30 years ago my uncle had a remington .243 bolt action and could not believe the damage it can cause to a whitetail deer. 

My brother has a remington bolt action .270, dad had (now my brothers) a  lever action older winchester .308, and me wanting something different some near 30 years ago got a ruger m77 .30-06 bolt action.  I think the .308 does the most damage to a deer judging by years of shooting holes in deer.   I think I should have got (brother took that as well) my first rifel the old winchester .30-30 lever action loved that short gun up to 100 yard shots is about it though since bullet dropped too much after 100+ yards, could rattle off 5-6 shots in mere seconds just like the old western chuck connors on the Rifleman tv show, well almost anyways. 

Back on topic,  I was at Gander mountain the other day and saw the competition series with VERY long (over 12 inches easily)  ported barrel .500 S&W, but the price tag of 1400 turned me away.   

[Varmintmist]

a 243 with 100gr gamekings will drop deer as fast as anything. Deer are not armored, they really are not that hard to put down.

As to caliber and damage. Its more about the bullet. For deer you are going to find it hard to beat a cup and core style bullet. Something as simple as a Hornady interlock and Sierra Gameking.

[solo1]

There has been much improvements in bullet construction today, both pistol and rifle.

In the early '50's, I went to the range with a friend.  He had a custom 22/250 rifle with a Unertel (sp) scope mounted.
22 cal bullets were still hard to find.  He was using handloads and using bullets made from .22 shell casings, i don't remember the process.  He was firing at a 100 yard target and couldn't hit paper. He was puzzled until I told him that ,when he fired, there was a fine blue streak heading toward the target.  The bullets were disintegrating before they hit the target.

In the '70's, when I hunted in Wyoming my 7mm handloads with the Nosler partitions did the job.  Now, bullets are even better.

Those early '50's were NOT the god ole days for gun supplies.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

There has been much improvements in bullet construction today, both pistol and rifle.

In the early '50's, I went to the range with a friend.  He had a custom 22/250 rifle with a Unertel (sp) scope mounted.
22 cal bullets were still hard to find.  He was using handloads and using bullets made from .22 shell casings, i don't remember the process.  He was firing at a 100 yard target and couldn't hit paper. He was puzzled until I told him that ,when he fired, there was a fine blue streak heading toward the target.  The bullets were disintegrating before they hit the target.

In the '70's, when I hunted in Wyoming my 7mm handloads with the Nosler partitions did the job.  Now, bullets are even better.

Those early '50's were NOT the god ole days for gun supplies.

You are right about the evolution of ammo. A good example is the .380, today's .380 is probably as good a defensive round as it's big brother the 9mm was 25 years ago. That's probably due to bullet construction mostly but not entirely.

[Serk]

You are right about the evolution of ammo. A good example is the .380, today's .380 is probably as good a defensive round as it's big brother the 9mm was 25 years ago. That's probably due to bullet construction mostly but not entirely.

It probably also has a lot to do with people being so thin skinned now, as opposed to how they used to be...

(This was an attempt at a witty observation on society, not a literal observation, for the wit impaired. )

[Gavin_Sons]

You are right about the evolution of ammo. A good example is the .380, today's .380 is probably as good a defensive round as it's big brother the 9mm was 25 years ago. That's probably due to bullet construction mostly but not entirely.

It probably also has a lot to do with people being so thin skinned now, as opposed to how they used to be...

(This was an attempt at a witty observation on society, not a literal observation, for the wit impaired. )

 

[Chrisj CMA]

This thread is kind of interesting.  However, until you pick up 5 pounds of steel, aim and squeeze the trigger on 50,000 lbs of pressure and feel the recoil down to your toes, you won't be able to understand why the OP made this post in the first place.

[solo1]

ChrisJ.  You're right, it is a mammoth of a pistol and the ultimate in handguns. It far beats the Dirty Harry Smith 29. Auto Mag, Desert Eagles, Mr. Welty,  etc. The recoil is severe and it takes experience to shoot it.

This was a good thread.  Lots of other guns discussed here.

[desertrefugee]

The 500 is a beast.  I'm pretty happy with my 58 year old Ruger .44 Blackhawk Flattop.   Even though it is also a handful of revolver, in and of itself, I'm guessing that it would feel pretty pedestrian after popping off a few rounds from the S&W.

[Chrisj CMA]

ChrisJ, I'll give the post back to you and your prized .500 Smith.  You're right, it is a mammoth of a pistol and the ultimate in handguns. It far beats the Dirty Harry Smith 29. Auto Mag, Desert Eagles, Mr. Welty,  etc. The recoil is severe and it takes experience to shoot it.

This was a good thread, even when it deviated.  Lots of other guns discussed here..

I'm done here.

Not my post

[solo1]

Me bad, you're right.  I modified my post above to reflect the correction.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

You are right about the evolution of ammo. A good example is the .380, today's .380 is probably as good a defensive round as it's big brother the 9mm was 25 years ago. That's probably due to bullet construction mostly but not entirely.

It probably also has a lot to do with people being so thin skinned now, as opposed to how they used to be...

(This was an attempt at a witty observation on society, not a literal observation, for the wit impaired. )

That's funny. 

Concerning the OP, that's me and I've greatly enjoyed the twists and turns this thread has taken and can't wait to see where it goes next.

I'm taking a break from bluing a customers muzzleloader for a late lunch and some VRCC time right now. Funny how one task leads to another. We've been switching 220 plugs back and forth between the two ovens depending on if we're bluing or Cerakoting forever. I finally got tired of it today and put in a 2nd 220 outlet. Now I'm hours behind where I thought I would be today but I do have a long "procrastinated" small project off the list. And...... The wife and her Mom are painting our living room today so it's a very good day to work in the shop. 

I seldom reach the point of being tired of talking about, shooting and/or repairing firearms, and I'm not even close to that yet today. When I do get there, I just take a few hours or days off. It's really nice, after years of having jobs I hated to find myself with two part-times jobs, both of which I like. I still usually wind up working 30-50 hours per week, but it's an enjoyable 30-50 hours.

[solo1]

I do believe that the .44 Magnum is still a nicely balanced cartridge.  Elmer Keith knew what he was doing when he persuaded Smith to develop it, after Keith worked up the load in the Smith triple lock .44.   That cartridege will take any non dangerous game in the US with no problem.

My last deer on my last and final hunt, was taken with .44 mag handloads. My vintage Ruger Super Blackhawk (three screw) is now owned by my son, Mad6gun. A beautifully finished single action and the best that Ruger made.

[Pappy!]

Also been looking at the pistol caliber rifles. The CZ 9MM is one I would like to pick up and see if I like it.
Actually no complaints on the Gen2 Kel-Tec either. Kind of fugly though.

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I do believe that the .44 Magnum is still a nicely balanced cartridge.  Elmer Keith knew what he was doing when he persuaded Smith to develop it, after Keith worked up the load in the Smith triple lock .44.   That cartridege will take any non dangerous game in the US with no problem.

My last deer on my last and final hunt, was taken with .44 mag handloads. My vintage Ruger Super Blackhawk (three screw) is now owned by my son, Mad6gun. A beautifully finished single action and the best that Ruger made.

Agree 100%. I really wish I had bought a 44 mag barrel for my encore instead of the .460 S&W mag barrel. It would have been more accurate and way more economical to shoot. MY daughter-in-law hunts with a SS Ruger bolt-action 44 mag which is a great gun and has taken several deer. 44 mag handi-rifles are the firearm of choice for my Grandsons who deer hunt too.

A sometimes forgotten pistol caliber carbine chambered in 44mag is Ruger's semi-auto model 44 which went out of production in 1985 according to Wikipedia. They would sell like hotcakes today I imagine.

[Crackerborn]

My last deer on my last and final hunt, was taken with .44 mag handloads. My vintage Ruger Super Blackhawk (three screw) is now owned by my son, Mad6gun. A beautifully finished single action and the best that Ruger made.

I never used the .44 as a hunting round. When I lived in south FL the .357 was the pig killer once the dogs had cornered a tusker. It was more than enough to insure the safety of both canine and people at close range. I recently picked up a Henery lever action in .357 Magnum with the intent to use it as a mid to short range deer gun for the late season. Beyond 100 yards it is useless but it sure is fun at the range and I can use ammo I have on hand without adding a new round. (I was thinking of getting the lever gun in .45 Long Colt.)


As a side note, I had the privledge of introducing trap shooting to a group of 13 young men and ladies today. Hopefully the start to a future generation of shooting sports enthusiasts.

[Jess from VA]

I picked up a used Kriss Vector .45acp carbine last year.  They are a little spendy, but I got mine for about a third off, and a pile of long mags (they take Glock 21 thirteen rd mags flush fit, or long 27 rounders), and a forward vertical grip (with internal bipod), and a nice hard case.

I was really in the market for a 9mm carbine, since ammo is cheaper, but always prefer to shoot folks with a .45 over a 9 if I have a choice. (I don't hunt, anymore)

The internal design of the bolt makes almost no muzzle flip, though you still get recoil, and you can blaze away on this thing and stay right on target. Really a lot of fun.  It is supposed to only take 230gr hardball (esp in the short bbl submachine gun version) but it shoots JHPs all day with no problem (expense is the problem).  It is not suppressed, just a barrel shroud so you don't burn fingers.

I stuck a Primary Arms red dot, and Streamlight light and green laser on mine.







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCT3w-jkSn4

http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-advanced-micro-dot-with-push-buttons-and-up-to-50khour-battery-life/p/md-ads/


I guess they come in 9mm now.

[Serk]

It is not suppressed, just a barrel shroud so you don't burn fingers.

I think the real reason for the barrel shroud is to keep it from being an NFA item, an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle)...

Those have intrigued me, been close to getting one, but I think I'd hafta do the paperwork and get a SBR version.

The bolt action on those is just so unique. Things like that always get my interest, I love taking 'em apart and figuring out how it all works.

[Jess from VA]

It is not suppressed, just a barrel shroud so you don't burn fingers.

I think the real reason for the barrel shroud is to keep it from being an NFA item, an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle)...

Those have intrigued me, been close to getting one, but I think I'd hafta do the paperwork and get a SBR version.

The bolt action on those is just so unique. Things like that always get my interest, I love taking 'em apart and figuring out how it all works.

I dunno Serk, all the carbines have 16"bbls.  The barrel itself is fairly thin, and the shroud is not pinned.

The knee-joint bolt is very cool (design and operation), but it is a major factor in making the carbine pretty heavy at 7.8lbs (and a loaded 27rd mag, VFG, dot sight and light pushes it close to 9lbs).  And cocking that bolt takes a decent amount of strength.

The semiauto subgun copies only have 5.5: bbls, making it a pretty heavy 5.9lb handgun (unloaded).  If you got an SBR permit so you could run a buttstock, then added a short shroud, that wouldn't be too bad.  But to me, once it's not a real subgun, it's better as a carbine.  Better accuracy, sight radius, and ammo velocity.  

And the weight and bbl length coupled with the bolt make it stay on target as you hammer away on the trigger.  Also, notice how the chamber and bbl are below the web of your hand grip and level with the trigger.  I was at the range next to my wife with her G22, and she just stopped and watched me tear the entire bull out of my target in rapid fire.  

I'm not a fan of AR pistols either.  Even my scoped .44 redhawk gets heavy after awhile.
 
I would not have paid full price for this thing.  But a 1/3 off nearly new with a bunch of extras was too good to pass up.  (and I enjoy the hell out of my social security buying these things    Yeah, it's really my money being returned, but I like to think of it as the Big Bad Fed buying them for me.)

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I picked up a used Kriss Vector .45acp carbine last year.  They are a little spendy, but I got mine for about a third off, and a pile of long mags (they take Glock 21 thirteen rd mags flush fit, or long 27 rounders), and a forward vertical grip (with internal bipod), and a nice hard case.

I was really in the market for a 9mm carbine, since ammo is cheaper, but always prefer to shoot folks with a .45 over a 9 if I have a choice. (I don't hunt, anymore)

The internal design of the bolt makes almost no muzzle flip, though you still get recoil, and you can blaze away on this thing and stay right on target. Really a lot of fun.  It is supposed to only take 230gr hardball (esp in the short bbl submachine gun version) but it shoots JHPs all day with no problem (expense is the problem).  It is not suppressed, just a barrel shroud so you don't burn fingers.

I stuck a Primary Arms red dot, and Streamlight light and green laser on mine.







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCT3w-jkSn4

http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-advanced-micro-dot-with-push-buttons-and-up-to-50khour-battery-life/p/md-ads/


I guess they come in 9mm now.

That is sweet!

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

It is not suppressed, just a barrel shroud so you don't burn fingers.

I think the real reason for the barrel shroud is to keep it from being an NFA item, an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle)...

Those have intrigued me, been close to getting one, but I think I'd hafta do the paperwork and get a SBR version.

The bolt action on those is just so unique. Things like that always get my interest, I love taking 'em apart and figuring out how it all works.

Have you had a chance to see the inner workings of a P90? Just a glorified blowback (delayed blowback) action I guess but the mags are amazing and the fire-control group (polymer hammer it appears) is also.

[solo1]

I am not familiar with the AR 15 actions.  My sons have HB Colts though. That action did for .223 what Ruger's 10/22 did for .22's.  The AR platform is amazing in its versatility.!

Having shot the M1 Garand in the Service, I like the M14 but, then again, I'm a geezer.

The Hipoint carbine is full blowback which makes them heavy but simple.I haven't taken my HiPoint apart yet, but it looks to be in the same category as Rugers Mark !, II, And III's (well maybe not as stubborn to reassemble).

My two Sig 320's  are Sig's first striker fired pistols, are modular like the 250 but the trigger pull is much better than their double action hammer fired. 250.  Having owned Glocks, I believe that the trigger pull is much better than an unmodified Glock.  Reliability is excellent too.

[Gavin_Sons]

I got out yesterday and got the 44 leve4 sighted in at 50 yards. Should have taken a picture of my 5 shot group, but I forgot. Took about 5 shots to fine tune at 25 yards then moved back to 50 and 2 more shots had her tuned in. Then I proceeded to fire of several more rounds at 50. I really like this reflex sight. Shoulder is sore this morning from that hardround butt plate and the extra recoil loaded into those hand loads, but they are very accurate.