Who do you believe?

[Pete]

 Nice Job on the timeline and comments Moonshot, Thanks

[therapist]

This is not a partisan issue.
We should all agree that a foreign power should never interfere in our democracy.

[MP]

This is not a partisan issue.
We should all agree that a foreign power should never interfere in our democracy.

Yet we are free to interfere overseas?

[Moonshot_1]

This is not a partisan issue.
We should all agree that a foreign power should never interfere in our democracy.

As we should agree that a Domestic power should never interfere and undermine our Democracy. And THAT is the real issue of this election.

Talk to Bernie Sanders.

The obvious collusion between the DNC and the Media outlets.

Really, the list of DNC and Clinton Campaign corruption is virtually endless.

If the DOJ isn't going to pursue it, I have little problem with someone exposing it. Even the Russians. And I don't subscribe to that dribble.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Doubletalk by Assange then. Serk is suspect also. 

Double talk?   You do jump to a great number of unsupported conclusions.  I don't thin I in any way expressed that Assange would have to know that the emails were obtained through Russian activity or even that they must have been.

So many of us choose to believe what matches and supports what we already want to believe.  That applies to you and to me.  To some extent it may apply to the CIA, the FBI and the NSA.

I don't believe the so called intelligence agencies have specifically said that the emails were stolen by the Russians.  They have said that their indicators point to the Russians but they are still speculating.

Truth was exposed.  No one has denied that.  When truth is exposed I'm disinclined to be overly concerned with who exposed it.  I'm more concerned about who intended to hide it.  

Supposedly Wikileaks and its founder Assange are diligent in determining the accuracy of their info. If that is true, do you believe he would not determine where the info came from ? If I were to receive 20 million from a bank robber. Then I were to give you 20 million. Would you not now be engaged in double talk if you told a news agency that you didn't receive any money from a bank robber ?

So Exactly what should he have done with the info given him? He may really not know the source. Is he supposed to incriminate himself? Is that what you would do?

No, my point is he is lying when he says he didn't get the hacked info from the Russians. Technically it's correct, because there was a middle man. But it came from the Russians. He should just be square about it.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I don't believe anyone.

First, the Problem with the Intel agencies is that they are allowing the narrative of Russia Hacking the Election to support Trump.

That is, and has been, smoke and mirrors in collusion with the media.

There was no hacking of the Election. In the middle of their narrative they quietly say that, but the headline is always shouted out "The Russian's hacked the election!"

What was hacked was the computers at the DNC and their network along with the computers of some high level Democrat operatives. Their email correspondence was made public revealing rampant corruption and fraud. Revealing lax computer security procedures with Classified information in the mix.

Can the intel community convince me that the Russians were behind this? Probably not. The politics have made their opinions toxic. Their comments and even the testimony given at the Senate hearing was cryptic at times.  

What would have had me on the side of the intel community is them coming out and saying exactly what this is, lax cyber security standards at the DNC. That it would be ridiculous to consider this hacking the election and that there was no effect on the election whatsoever.

There are a number of things I don't like about the Russian narrative.

1. The time line. Russia was supposed to be doing this hacking to support Trump. Published reports have the hacking, and the possibility of Russian involvement at least as early as March 2016. Trump wasn't the nominee till June. Wasn't even the presumptive nominee till late May.

2. The hacking operation is pretty sophomoric. If the Russians were in fact out to support Trump we would have seen fabricated emails, a media doing a 180 on supporting Trump, and support of correspondence in the GOP. We saw no fabricated emails, the media was going after Trump like rabid dogs, and the GOP cursed near disowned him everyday. This does not make sense.

3. Of all the candidates, a Trump administration would be the greatest strategic threat to Russia.
Take the last 4. Trump, Cruz, Clinton and Sanders.

Trump is a great unknown foreign policy wise. Coming off his campaign as a Hawk with plans on beefing up our Military and economy.

Cruz is Hawkish as well, supports a beef up of the Military. Politics are a known factor

Hillary is a known factor politically. Likely to follow the current Obama foreign policies that allowed Russia into Crimea, Ukraine, and Syria virtually with no serious push back.

Sanders...Russia dreams about an America with leadership like his. A certain pushover. Destined to deplete the US economically and militarily.

So the Russian narrative doesn't make sense to me.

I do believe that the entity that did hack the DNC and others did so with programing of Russian design.
But that is accessible to a lot of people.

So who do I think was behind the hacking?

Israel. And for good reason.

1. The Obama administration meddled in the Israeli election in 2015. Their attempt to unseat Netanyahu failed but it was not a secret that the Obama Administration had involved themselves, with taxpayer monies to fund the attempt.

2. The hacking began in March 2016. So the timeline to undermine the Clinton Campaign and the Obama legacy is good.

3. The response was proportional. The Obama Administration only focused on ousting Netanyahu.
Israel focused only the Clinton Campaign.

4. Clinton as Sec. of State pursued policies that tended to be unfavorable to Israel in regard to peace negotiations.

5. Clinton, via her Foundation, received 10s of millions of dollars from Arab countries that are historically considered Israel's adversaries.

And then she runs for President. Imagine Putin and Imagine Netanyahu. Who you think is freaking out more?

6. Israel's cyberwar ability is unmatched worldwide.

7. I believe the Obama Administration recently figured this out and that was what was behind the UN abstention.

8. This will likely not be in the public domain for a number of reasons. One of which is that the Obama Administration would have to explain why the US was actively meddling in a foreign election. Of one of our closest allies no less.

9. The Israeli intel services simply used Russian programing codes to do the hacking.
Our intel guys assumed the Russians because of the programing used but just couldn't nail it down.

I'm betting they know now and can't say anything about it.

Game set match Israel.


 

"The politics have made their opinions toxic" ? How can you possibly think after what has happened that Comey's politics are on the side of the Democrats ?

[Moonshot_1]

Comey made a public statement that was virtually an indictment of Mrs. Clinton and then gave her a pass. Professional Prosecutors nationwide were taken aback that he could make such a case against Mrs. Clinton then, in the same presser, give her an unbelievable pass. Then, just before the election, it was made public that there was a laptop that had more emails.

He sent a memo to Congress to officially inform them that his previous statement that the case was closed was no longer the case with the new potential evidence he was legally required to review.

He gave her a pass after that too.

I don't know what you would have had him do. Did he not have an obligation to inform Congress that his testimony, that the case was closed, had changed?

It must also be noted that all of this. ALL OF THIS. would not have been an issue if Mrs. Clinton and her surrogates had done what was legally required of all government employees in their position. The timing and pursuit of all this is squarely in her court.

The wounds the Democrat Party have suffered are all self inflicted. No sympathies from me.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Comey made a public statement that was virtually an indictment of Mrs. Clinton and then gave her a pass. Professional Prosecutors nationwide were taken aback that he could make such a case against Mrs. Clinton then, in the same presser, give her an unbelievable pass. Then, just before the election, it was made public that there was a laptop that had more emails.

He sent a memo to Congress to officially inform them that his previous statement that the case was closed was no longer the case with the new potential evidence he was legally required to review.

He gave her a pass after that too.

I don't know what you would have had him do. Did he not have an obligation to inform Congress that his testimony, that the case was closed, had changed?

It must also be noted that all of this. ALL OF THIS. would not have been an issue if Mrs. Clinton and her surrogates had done what was legally required of all government employees in their position. The timing and pursuit of all this is squarely in her court.

The wounds the Democrat Party have suffered are all self inflicted. No sympathies from me.

No sympathy from me either. I have said many times it was her fault. What I am saying is that to say Comey's politics sided with Clinton are wrong.

[Moonshot_1]

I guess this depends on how one would define "sided with".

I don't believe Comey was in political lockstep with Mrs. Clinton or the democrats.

I do believe he was in a no win situation and the decisions he made were politically motivated.

There can be no question that the FBI and Comey did not follow the usual protocols in pursuit of their jobs and the inability to come to obvious and reasonable conclusions were glaringly obvious.

If you or I destroyed evidence under Congressional subpoena we sure as hell wouldn't get to run for President. The only thing we would be able to run would be the prison yard.

[Jess from VA]

Moonshot, I think you have laid out another excellent analysis (above, page one).  

I'm not going to start guessing.  I don't know enough to guess.  Clearly the DNC was hacked (but only true facts were revealed), but the election was not hacked.  I can never see how having a Republican president is better for Russia than a Democrat (Democrats are FumbleRooskie for the US, all the time and all the way).

What I want to know is why our our intel services are playing this out in public, cryptically maybe but nonetheless publicly?   Since when do we show our cards like this?  How do they gain (and the US gain) by fingering the Russians in the public eye?  Zero only has days left, no reason to be kissing up to him now.  I spent a number of years studying how to engage in nuclear war with them.  Things are much better than the bad old days of the cold war.  We do not ever need to go back to those days.

I completely understand the MSM beating the drums (against the election, and Trump's win).  SOP all the way, and a one trick pony.  But our intel people?  I don't get it.... yet.  

[Skinhead]

This is not a partisan issue.
We should all agree that a foreign power should never interfere in our democracy.

SO are you saying it is OK for an internal power (DNC for example, providing debate questions, etc) ?

[Binkie]

I would believe any thing one of the 3 letter federal agency's say because our government wouldn't lie to the American people. Boy that was hard to say without laughing out loud. Personally, I think all of them will tell some shred of truth.....just enough to misled you or deceive you.

[G-Man]

I guess this depends on how one would define "sided with".

I don't believe Comey was in political lockstep with Mrs. Clinton or the democrats.

I do believe he was in a no win situation and the decisions he made were politically motivated.

There can be no question that the FBI and Comey did not follow the usual protocols in pursuit of their jobs and the inability to come to obvious and reasonable conclusions were glaringly obvious.

If you or I destroyed evidence under Congressional subpoena we sure as hell wouldn't get to run for President. The only thing we would be able to run would be the prison yard.

And all of this falls under the job description of the Attorney General of the United States of America, Loretta Lynch.  She met, out in the open, yet incredibly secretively, with the former President of the United States of America, who's wife, a former United States Senator and former Sec'y of State of the United States of America was under investigation by the Congress of the United States of America, the Federal Bureau of Investigations, and supposedly the State Dept. of the United States of America, and had an undocumented conversation.  This all occurs a week after the former Senator/Sec'y of State has a voluntary, undocumented meeting with the head of Federal Bureau of Investigations.

Following these insanely high level, undocumented, meetings, the Attorney General of the United States says she will accept whatever "recommendations" the federal Bureau of Investigations makes.

And she won the popular vote.  Democrats don't care about corruption in their government.

BTW, the only thing separating many third world countries from non-third world countries is the amount of corruption in their governments. 

[Romeo]

This is not a partisan issue.
We should all agree that a foreign power should never interfere in our democracy.

As we should agree that a Domestic power should never interfere and undermine our Democracy. And THAT is the real issue of this election.

Talk to Bernie Sanders.

The obvious collusion between the DNC and the Media outlets.

Really, the list of DNC and Clinton Campaign corruption is virtually endless.

If the DOJ isn't going to pursue it, I have little problem with someone exposing it. Even the Russians. And I don't subscribe to that dribble.

spot on, as they say.

[Robert]

Why is this even a discussion, because there was no hack of any voting machine. The revelation of corruption was a good thing. George Soros with his black lives matter and the other groups he has started influenced the election more negatively than the Russian revelation of corruption. Soros is corruption yet I dont hear anything about this, I wonder why?

[Moonshot_1]

Why is this even a discussion, because there was no hack of any voting machine. The revelation of corruption was a good thing. George Soros with his black lives matter and the other groups he has started influenced the election more negatively than the Russian revelation of corruption. Soros is corruption yet I dont hear anything about this, I wonder why?

You haven't posted it yet.

I see no difference between the Soros corruption and the alleged Russian hacking except that the Soros corruption and interference in our electoral process is well documented, well known and violent and the Russian involvement is dubious and severely lacking in evidence and proof.

It's just that it's the Democrats and there's nothing to see here. Move along.  LOOK! RUSSIAN SQUIRRELS!

[Robert]

This is exactly why Trump won, the liberals dont seem to equate corruption regardless of where it comes from as needing to be justly prosecuted. That is why most of the US laughs at the hypocrisy of it all.

On the opposite side of the Russians supposed influence is CNN, NBC,CBS Most Major networks, most polling researchers, George Soros, Scholarly elite, most of fairy land (Hollywood) just to name a few in the game of influencing the elections. This does not mention the Republican party the Democratic party most politicians all expressed negative hurtful comments. Lets not also forget the videos of stars telling the electoral college to illegally abdicate their responsibility to the American people.

Yet no one says anything about going after these many US sources of influence.

Do you think that the major stations reporting Hillary winning right up till the end had an influence on every American? I know it did on me. OH IM sure it was just a mistake that the polls only polled a few people and were so off, or was this an accident or purposefully done?

Propaganda is exactly what they did and it is proved effective and used in war as a form of mind control. 

Propaganda##############

 The spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

  ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also :  a public action having such an effect

I would say that the polls saying being so far off was Propaganda pure and simple

You see Russian influence was only revealing corruption, something that should have not been there in the first place.

But these people actually influenced by manipulation with a type of mind control with no redeeming value except the destruction of the US as we know it. Intentional, influential and illegal, so I would like to hear one liberal saying lets investigate them.


Here is an example of propaganda by John McCain
(TRUNEWS) U.S. Senator John McCain recorded a Tokyo Rose-style propaganda message that was broadcast on North Vietnamese radio in 1969.

http://www.trunews.com/article/john-mccains-1969-tokyo-rose-propaganda-recording-released

[Ramie]

I'm trying to decide if where all the emails came from makes a difference right now. 
I think at the moment that fact is being used as a smokescreen to divert attention away from the emails themselves and what they revealed.
I seems as no surprise that political party's scheme against some of their own, we  saw it out in the open with the Republican party.
It seems to be no surprise that politicians are two faced, looking out for the own interest and their own positions of power.
It bothers me that the truth is no longer important, it seems what's important is who revealed the truth.
Those of us that have been around for a while know that Russia and all the other countries have trying to interfere in our country for decades, that is not new.
We should also know that it's not new for our government to lie to us, just look up the Pentagon Papers for one example.

[rocketray]

follow the money and the media....google "what part of the media do the Rothschilds own?they own it all......who owns our banking system--the fed--same criminals..who owns the IMF..check that box again...try on you tube "#TrumpTheEstablishment"  try "themoneymasters.com" on you tube "How to be a crook by Larken Rose" "Fractional Reserve Banking" "All wars are bankers wars"...quit being mushrooms guys...

[Moonshot_1]

Few weeks ago I posted my thoughts on the DNC hacking and who was, in my mind, likely responsible.

You may scroll back on this thread to see my post. My conclusion, from what I have been reading on various news sites going back to at least March of 2016, was that it likely was the Israelis.

Today, I see a story on the Fox News site about the case against Clinton being revisited and in the article by Judge Napolitano is this paragraph.

"Then, last Sunday evening, during the NFL playoff game between the New York Giants and the Green Bay Packers, the FBI posted on its website more than 300 emails that Clinton had sent to an unnamed colleague not in the government -- no doubt her adviser Sid Blumenthal -- that had fallen into the hands of foreign powers. It turns out -- and the Sunday night release proves this -- that Blumenthal was hacked by intelligence agents from at least three foreign governments and that they obtained the emails Clinton had sent to him that contained state secrets. Sources believe that the hostile hackers were the Russians and the Chinese and the friendly hackers were the Israelis."

But you read it here first.