we need the money so we make up laws to write tickets

[98valk]

http://www.wxyz.com/news/roseville-man-gets-128-ticket-for-heating-up-car-in-own-driveway


insurance companies behind this? 
town wants lower crime statistics, so the town can raise property taxes promoting we are safe town? follow the money.

[Bighead]

Jackasses

[Gavin_Sons]

I'd see them in court with the best lawyer I could find, then sue the crap out of the city.

[Serk]

The phrase "Policing for Fun and Profit" comes to mind...

[Chrisj CMA]

All he would have to do to be legal would be to lock the doors while the car is warming up. Just have to have the spare key available.

[Jess from VA]

I've done that (a few times), and always locked my car/truck.

Not really worried about theft from my driveway, but what if some juvenile/head case hopped in for a joy ride, and promptly mowed down a bunch of kids at the bus stop (right on my corner).  Guess whose fault that would be?  You may be insured, but most policies have some pretty specific language about damages resulting from your own gross negligence or intentional misconduct.  You would not likely recover from the criminal and civil liability in your lifetime.

The last time I left my keys in an unlocked motor vehicle...... was never.  (Similar to leaving a loaded gun around for someone to pick up;  and cars kill/maim far more than guns; at least in our country.)

Not that I support Policing for Fun and Profit.

If you don't think a motor vehicle is a deadly weapon, ask the guy who's wife backed over him for adultery, and obviously the recent Mohammedan mass murders by truck.

[dreamaker]

I did the same thing way back when, in Fraser,MI. went in to the restaurant to wizz, and got a ticket for, leaving car unattended while running. I deserved it, and paid the ticket, and didn't cry about it. I guess that has been an ordnance like forever, I knew about that before I started driving.  Roseville is just down the street from me!

[Gavin_Sons]

I did the same thing way back when, in Fraser,MI. went in to the restaurant to wizz, and got a ticket for, leaving car unattended while running. I deserved it, and paid the ticket, and didn't cry about it. I guess that has been an ordnance like forever, I knew about that before I started driving.  Roseville is just down the street from me!

Still a stupid law, I can see it if you are somewhere in public but not in your own driveway. 

[Bighead]

All he would have to do to be legal would be to lock the doors while the car is warming up. Just have to have the spare key available.

I read the article and didn't see where his doors were unlocked? I may have missed that.

[98valk]

All he would have to do to be legal would be to lock the doors while the car is warming up. Just have to have the spare key available.

I read the article and didn't see where his doors were unlocked? I may have missed that.

article didn't state.
 If the tax collector I mean cop, opened the door of the vehicle isn't that illegal entry or attempted entry without a warrant?

[dreamaker]

I did the same thing way back when, in Fraser,MI. went in to the restaurant to wizz, and got a ticket for, leaving car unattended while running. I deserved it, and paid the ticket, and didn't cry about it. I guess that has been an ordnance like forever, I knew about that before I started driving.  Roseville is just down the street from me!

Still a stupid law, I can see it if you are somewhere in public but not in your own driveway. 

When I originally seen this on the news, they said if it would have been a remote start, he wouldn't have got a ticket.  But since the keys was in the ignition was the reason he got the ticket.

[BF]

They have that law here locally...at least in one of the local towns. 

One of their local's finest said that he was going to give me a ticket for that exact thing.

It was freezing cold (at least for here) and I had run into a convenience store for just a sec and left the truck running...with the doors locked.  He told me that he could give me a ticket for that....and I said why?  He said it was because that I'd left the keys in the ignition (guess he didn't notice the locked doors). 

It was then that I pulled my extra set of keys out of my pocket.  He gave me a verbal warning.   

[old2soon]

When he goes to court he should swear that the doors were locked while warming up his vehicle. When I went out Sunday morning I had frost on all the windows and started my car set the heat controls locked my doors and went back in my warm house. We might have some questionable folks wanderin about and I do NOT need them test ridin my Olds. RIDE SAFE.

[Hooter]

After spending almost 28 yrs doing the job, this ticket is cheap. I get it, but really. Its not a made up law or ordinance. There is a law / ordinance on the books that covers "Running Unattended Motor Vehicle ".  A parking ticket? I do know that if a car is "stolen" while running and unattended a citation may be issued, but not a parking ticket under those conditions.  Yes an unattended  vehicle is an invitation to some thief / joy rider.  But, it would be interesting to see how many in that area were actually running unattended and stolen vs just a vehicle with the keys left in the ignition?

Everybody in cold states does this, officers as well. You show me an officer ANYWHERE that is covering a complaint that shuts his cruiser down? Very seldom happens even in the department where this ticket was issued.  Might wanna practice what you preach.

[3fan4life]

Can You Say, "NANNY STATE" ?

[dreamaker]

It seems to me, quite often the offenders seem to always act like they are the victim, they make rules for a reason. What is so hard about just following them, if you go by the game plan, then everyone is happy, instead crying about it. You messed up, so pay the ticket. Then on the other side of the fence, figuratively speaking, these people would be crying about their car being stolen, and complain about where was the Police to stop it. I see this chit on the TV News in Detroit quite often, people going in quickly to get something, come out and the car is gone.  Very common around here!

[Chrisj CMA]

All he would have to do to be legal would be to loc k the doors while the car is warming up. Just have to have the spare key available.

I read the article and didn't see where his doors were unlocked? I may have missed that.

The article implied that the vehicle was not locked. It said many towns allow warming the vehicle using a remote start because that keeps the vehicle locked.

[3fan4life]

It seems to me, quite often the offenders seem to always act like they are the victim, they make rules for a reason. What is so hard about just following them, if you go by the game plan, then everyone is happy, instead crying about it. You messed up, so pay the ticket. Then on the other side of the fence, figuratively speaking, these people would be crying about their car being stolen, and complain about where was the Police to stop it. I see this chit on the TV News in Detroit quite often, people going in quickly to get something, come out and the car is gone.  Very common around here!

I think that we're comparing apples to oranges here.

A car that has been left running in a public parking lot is one thing.

A car that has been left running in one's own driveway (Private Property) should be another.

To me the 4th Amendment should have some bearing on the legality of the ticket.

Does a police officer have the right to come onto private property to check a vehicle simply because it is running?

Especially since the fact that it is running is not a violation of the law.

In many states NOT wearing a seatbelt isn't a primary violation.

In other words a police officer cannot pull you over and ticket you soley on the basis that you weren't wearing a seatbelt.

But, if you are pulled over for speeding or say a tailight that is out and you aren't wearing your seatbelt then you may receive a ticket for that as well.

It just seems that this particular ordinance should be enforced the same way.

If your car is stolen and it was proven that you left the keys in it, then you get the ticket.

TOO MANY people are quick to sign away their Constitutional Rights in the name of "safety".

I for one will not simply give away something that THOUSANDS of good men fought and DIED for me to have.

To do so dishonors them and their sacrifice!

[Gavin_Sons]

so what are people in the frozen north suppose to do? walk out start your car and drive off? I always let my vehicles warm up for at least 5 minutes before driving them in the winter. I go out every morning and start both my truck and the wife's van. The van takes a smart key and my tuck takes a normal key. The key is left in it running with the doors unlocked. Have been doing this since i can remember.

[BF]

so what are people in the frozen north suppose to do? walk out start your car and drive off? I always let my vehicles warm up for at least 5 minutes before driving them in the winter. I go out every morning and start both my truck and the wife's van. The van takes a smart key and my tuck takes a normal key. The key is left in it running with the doors unlocked. Have been doing this since i can remember.

Get an extra key.  It saved me a ticket. 

btw...I had never heard of this law before until I was confronted by it face to face with the  .

[dreamaker]

I don't think this has anything to do with ones Constitutional right, it seem more like they are more likely to take away their right to be stupid. OK, Fine! If you want to leave your car running to warm it up, then you should not be ticketed for it. Like you said, in the event your car gets stolen then you should then get a ticket, and the insurance company does not have to be obligated to repair or replace your vehicle. That way it won't drive up our insurance premiums.

Also you can't take unusual circumstances like living in extreme conditions to judge the general public areas.
 Another thing about personal privacy, here in Michigan, if you are intoxicated or buzzed, say sleeping in your car, with the engine off, with the keys in the ignition, they can arrest you for DUI in your driveway!

[Chrisj CMA]

I don't think this has anything to do with ones Constitutional right, it seem more like they are more likely to take away their right to be stupid. OK, Fine! If you want to leave your car running to warm it up, then you should not be ticketed for it. Like you said, in the event your car gets stolen then you should then get a ticket, and the insurance company does not have to be obligated to repair or replace your vehicle. That way it won't drive up our insurance premiums.

Also you can't take unusual circumstances like living in extreme conditions to judge the general public areas.

I do the same. Let the truck warm up and melt the ice on the windshield. I have never locked the doors but until reading this post I didn't know it was illegal.   Just lock the doors or in the unlikely event you get a ticket, pay it (no whining) and then start locking. It's a simple thing really.

[dreamaker]

Don't get me wrong, I feel the same way about these annoying rule as you do.  But many of these annoying rules are here to protect us as well as annoy us. I have never in my 69 year ever had a vehicle stolen, bicycles or other wise. Knock on Wood!!

[Hooter]

I'm not taking a position one way or the other. (Fence  straddler  ) I as well as anybody know in cold states do this. Vehicle locked or not. I think there are bigger fish to fry than this in law enforcement!

[Jess from VA]

Really, this is a common sense issue.  If you live in a crowded, urban, suburbia with a short driveway in an area where cars do get stolen or joy-rided (like where I do), you should lock the car.  If you live out further in the country with a long driveway where the chances of theft or joy riding is slim, do what you want.

Just remember, if your unlocked running car is used to harm people or property (on purpose or by accident), you are holding the bag criminally and/or civilly for all of it.  And you will find your insurance company not defending you in anything, and not covering any civil judgments.  For this, you will be self insured.  

Intentional misconduct;  the issue is NOT that you intended for your car to be stolen and used to hurt someone, the issue is did you intend to leave your keys in an unlocked car (running or not, but running is worse, the noise/exhaust is like an invitation to thieves).  Yes, you did.  Virtually all of the bad things that can result from leaving your keys in your car are called REASONABLY FORESEEABLE.   And juries love to give away other people's money.

[dreamaker]

Quick question!! I am sure, you have heard that spitting on the sidewalk is against the law.  Do you think that is a senseless petty law?

[Jess from VA]

Old state and local (mostly local) laws remain on the books all over the country which are holdovers from decades, and even centuries ago.  Read up on tobacco chewing in the 1800s; it was so widespread that cities and towns outlawed the spitting of nasty tobacco juice in public as a health hazard.  In Andy Jackson's day, people just spit tobacco juice on the floor in the white house (if no spittoon was available).  Another famous old ordinance outlawed whistling in public. There are many more.

Look up Desuetude; the legal principle that old, long unused and long unenforced local ordinances should be considered unenforceable in criminal courts of law.  But be sure it is no longer enforced before arguing it to a judge.  Especially local ordinances that are Malum Prohibitum (meaning wrong because prohibited), and not Malum En Se (wrong because evil in and of itself, wrong on it's face).  That is, things that are not on their face wrong/criminal, but only prohibited locally are not generally known to the populace (public spitting/whistling), whereas things like rape and robbery are so clearly wrong on their face, public notice of them may be presumed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude

For instance, in 1825, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court declined to enforce the traditional punishment of ducking (or cucking) for women convicted as common scolds (disorderly conduct).

This would probably go over poorly today.

[Romeo]

If you lived in Roseville, MI and went outside and started your car every morning throughout the winter, I would just about guarentee it would be stolen at some point. Do I agree with the law, hell no, but knowing what I know about the area, its probably saved more than a few vehicles from being stolen.

[Gavin_Sons]

Just for the record, I was attacked and overpowered, keys were stolen from me and away he went.  thats my story and im stickin to it.

[dreamaker]

Hey, Hey, Hey! I live about a mile from Roseville, Mi., not all is bad. My area still safe, I hear they are going to your area, they heard that is where all the money is!! It seems no matter where one lives there are these Want-A Be's out there, if you get my drift. People these days act they are owed what they take. I  take a break and watch these court shows, probably the closest thing to the truth. I can't believe what comes out of their mouth. I think we are at a age, where the criminals is a victim when they get caught.

[Jess from VA]

Just for the record, I was attacked and overpowered, keys were stolen from me and away he went.  thats my story and im stickin to it.

False official statements to the police (and maybe the insurance company) and in open court under oath are crimes, and not that hard to prove in many cases.  Endangering your 2d amendment rights with a conviction is also a poor decision.

[Gavin_Sons]

Just for the record, I was attacked and overpowered, keys were stolen from me and away he went.  thats my story and im stickin to it.

False official statements to the police (and maybe the insurance company) and in open court under oath are crimes, and not that hard to prove in many cases.  Endangering your 2d amendment rights with a conviction is also a poor decision.

I'll have witnesses,  don't worry.

[deadpan]

http://tri1025.com/puffing-is-illegal-in-colorado-warming-up-your-car-unattended-2/

Who would have thought puffing in Colorado was illegal 

[dreamaker]

I think at this point, we are all basically chasing our tails!!

[vanagon40]

Just for the record, I was attacked and overpowered, keys were stolen from me and away he went.  thats my story and im stickin to it.

You should have stayed with suing the crap out of the city. A good offense is the best defense.

[Gavin_Sons]

Just for the record, I was attacked and overpowered, keys were stolen from me and away he went.  thats my story and im stickin to it.

You should have stayed with suing the crap out of the city. A good offense is the best defense.

Jess provided a different scenario so I provided a different solution.

[cookiedough]

if on your driveway is private property.  If stolen is trespassing and owner not liable for damages in my opinion, but I am not the judge.

Common sense tells me I would never let my car idle, besides my driveway or in front of my house in the street, anywhere else leaving unattended.  I bet not many people do leave unattended besides their own house area. 
 
Some people let their cars in cold winter warm up though way too much not needed.  5 minutes tops is enough on most cold mornings to defrost the windshield if turned on high heat.  I am smart enough to if vehicle sits outside to use a piece of cardboard tucked under the windshield wipers to NEVER scrap the front windshield and I can usually just roll down the side windows still frosted over good enough for me for another 5 minutes of driving on the rural roads around me not much traffic. 


If this was the case, over 1/2 the town would get a ticket including our local police chief who recently retired since, no joke, he would let his police car warm up unattended for at least 30 minutes if not longer for no good reason while sitting in his office.   Weird, but true.   I guess his gas on company squad car he does not pay so he did not care?  Anyone want to steal a police car? 

Or, how about most HD riders like my neighbor letting it potatoe, potatoe, potatoe for 20-30 minutes going back inside for no good reason besides to put on his assless chaps and the wifes leather bra and panties am sure to fit the HD mystique..   

I have been so tempted to NOT steal it, but either to go over and turn the key off after 10 minutes or so or stuff an orange or apple or banana up his tailpipes just to see what happens in the next 10 minutes not being around the bike idling and rumbling loudly, especially at 2 a.m. while trying to sleep.