PBS Vietnam documentary

[Jess from VA]

I keep watching segments of this as they come on and I have time.

I knew US youth went to Canada to avoid the draft (and only about a quarter of them ever gained some kind of legitimate residency status there), but I did not know this.

About 30,000 US males ran to Canada, BUT about 30,000 Canadians volunteered with US forces and went to Vietnam.

[old2soon]

Just a reminder so what I say next has some frame of reference. I lost a cousin-Major James Tremayne U S Army and a guy I went to school with-LCPL Vince "Tiny" Meltzer United States Marine Corps. Friend-well no longer a friend-took off for Canada. He came back to the United States of America after he was "pardoned" by our gubmint. Make of this whatever you will BUT I would have rather have him gone to Nam at the very least then do what he did. Saw him some years after he was "pardoned" but I TOLD him to leave me and NEVER be in my presence again. Would his going have affected Jimmy or Vince? Probably not but we will never know. And I also KNOW I am wrong for not only Not forgiving him but I also intend to not forgive him-ever. Sides-he took off for Canada and there is no way in hell I could Trust a dud like that to have my back. RIDE SAFE.

[Patrick]

I too [ and I'm sure many others] have had friends or kids they knew head to Canada. I didn't like that idea either at the time, but, I've changed my mind about that. I've also changed my mind about our country being in Scenic South East Asia. Each has their own idea about that I guess.

[hubcapsc]

Each has their own idea about that I guess.

I think that when there's a draft, you're required to go. I missed the
draft by a couple of years. I'm trying to imagine how I'd feel
at Mac's Veteran's Day Ride, or how I'd face Hal47 if I'd been
one of the ones who had run off...

Bleggh...

Admittedly I'm pretty naive about how awful it was being there
for some folks.

My cousin worked as kind of a clerk in Saigon, a part of the chain
that funneled support money from the US to the South Vietnamese
government. As he described it to me, he pushed palletized money
around with a fork lift... 

-Mike

[Jess from VA]

I was eligible for the last two years of the draft, and finally, by this time, no more 2S student deferments.   If your number came up, you got to finish your (already paid for) semester, then you went.  I lucked out and got big numbers both years, though by that time, they were not sending newbs to RVN much anymore ('71-2).  

We had draft parties in the dorms, sat around with 7-8 guys drinking beer and playing cards and listening to the radio with the random numbers being announced.  I absolutely did not want to go over there, but I was never going to run away from the draft. Nor were any of my friends at the time. But there were long discussions into the night about it, and other things, like how to screw yourself up for the physical.  Or simply going on the road perpetually inside the US, mailing in new addresses to the selective service from time to time (as required), but never staying put long enough to get a draft notice.  I wasn't going to do that either, but I considered all of it.

I wasn't crazy about going to that war, but I also knew I had some 6-7 straight years of more college ahead of me, and I didn't want that interrupted.  At that time (18-19), I had no idea that a couple years after school was finally finished, I would seek a direct appointment commission, and serve about nine years active duty (31-40).  

I always thought the blanket pardon granted all who ran away was a great dishonor to all those who served, and died.  A better compromise would have been to allow them to return but requiring them to serve the same two years of alternate service that approved conscientious objectors had to serve, like with the Peace Corps, or hospitals, or conservation work, BEFORE their pardon was approved.

I knew about people running to Canada, I just had never ever heard that 30K Canadians volunteered with US forces and went to RVN.  That is pretty amazing when you think about it.  The US has identified 103 as known Canadians who died in the war, and their names are inscribed both on the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington and on The North Wall in Windsor.

I didn't know this existed either.

[Willow]

A young man's responsibility to serve his country does not involve his deciding whether or not his country has made the correct decision.  To me it's pretty much the same as the responsibility to pay one's taxes.

I served with a few Canadian volunteers.  They were good Marines.

Corps.  I get weary of the misspelling.    

[MarkT]

My number was 41 on the draft - going for sure.  Both of my (later) BILs became gung-ho Marines and would carry on about how they were going to be popping gooks in the head like a shooting gallery - on and on about the pending Great Adventure.  Another mate in our high school crew went into the Army.  The jarhead BILs - one made it as far as Hawaii and stayed there.  The other did a second tour but never left Camp Pimpleton. Some Brave Heros - in contrast to how they colored themselves.  And touchy about a non-jarhead saying "Semper Fi".  Their only bravery consisted of dealing with abuse from their D.I.'s and maybe a bar fight or 2. But they did volunteer and had little control over where they went so I'll give them that - they signed the blank check to the country and COULD have been put in harm's way. My Army pal made it to the Phillipines and was a VERY REMF supporting our effort as an electronics technician.  He had a nice tour there, lived off-post with a Filipino girlfriend, got laid regularly w/o STD danger and rode a Honda bike, I think it was a 400cc 4-cylinder.  Smaller version of the ubiquitous 750. He's my pal to this day and the friend who had a stroke that f'd him up so I go help him hunt (and likely get a deer for myself while I'm at it.) I was the only one of our crew who actually made it into theater, as a REMF weapons mechanic working on weapons systems and the bomb dump at a fighter base then a B-52 base. I did have other friends who fought in the jungles and those that made it back were changed. PTSD along with battle wounds.  Not much danger in my exposure but we did have sappers make it onto base a couple times, took wild shots at us at night on the end of the runway while we were unarmed mechanics -and there was exposure to guerillas in the jungle on the dark and narrow road to the bomb dump at Takhli. I had to drive jammers alone unarmed down that road at night and would see apparitions duck into the cover.  Scary stuff.  Worst thing that happened to me was Agent Orange which has F'd me up since.  That and riding the Thai railroad; got derailed twice.  I got some great memories out of it.  And souvenirs.  I wouldn't give either of them up, nor could I look in the mirror if I had run away.  Like my coward brother who embraced a bogus C.O. status.  He's a coward to this day.  He is, what he is.  Still family but I'm ashamed of him.

[old2soon]

A young man's responsibility to serve his country does not involve his deciding whether or not his country has made the correct decision.  To me it's pretty much the same as the responsibility to pay one's taxes.

I served with a few Canadian volunteers.  They were good Marines.

Corps.  I get weary of the misspelling.    

                 Fixed it Gunny. I Really should have known better. RIDE SAFE.

[¿spoom]

Such a hard subject on many levels. The year before I was eligible for the draft, my number was 3 or 4, after I turned 18 and registered in '73 things were winding down and there was very little chance on me being called up to go anywhere. I will never know how that fact alone may have affected my thoughts. I know there's a former best friend from HS I haven't spoken to since '74 and don't desire to. He said if called, he'd go to Canada. If called I would have reported i.e. run to the recruiter's to see what kind of deal a 5'8" 135 lb kid with good grades could sign up for before Uncle Sam decided for me. I don't believe the Carter Pardon for those who fled to Canada was right. I believe anyone who can't agree with (or change) what their country is doing should obey or leave. Carter added Plan C where you could run off and eventually Mom & Dad would relent and let you get your own way. FWIW, I don't understand/agree why Nixon was pardoned, either. I remember Ford's explanation but considered it BS then and now. I won't even start on the Clintons...

[The emperor has no clothes]

It is not really a hard subject in my opinion. Although the draft was over when I was of age and it's easy to say now what I would have done. No one really knows unless they were faced with it. I'm 99% sure I would have went where they told me to go. A part of the subject that seldom gets discussed though is, rich kids didn't have to face this decision. They were able to have their Dads buy deferments for them. To me that is just as reprehensible as a draft dodger.

[Willow]

... They were able to have their Dads buy deferments for them. ...

? ? ?

[hubcapsc]

... They were able to have their Dads buy deferments for them. ...

? ? ?

Probably along these lines:

The better educated and economically advantaged were in a better position to obtain deferments through loopholes or technicalities. They had greater access to expert advice, counseling, psychiatric professionals and attorneys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_evasion

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

... They were able to have their Dads buy deferments for them. ...

? ? ?

They were able to get doctors to provide bogus diagnosis of ailments. Bone spurs, etc.

[hubcapsc]

... They were able to have their Dads buy deferments for them. ...

? ? ?

They were able to get doctors to provide bogus diagnosis of ailments. Bone spurs, etc.

Now its about Trump  ...

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

... They were able to have their Dads buy deferments for them. ...

? ? ?

They were able to get doctors to provide bogus diagnosis of ailments. Bone spurs, etc.

Now its about Trump  ...

-Mike

Not at all. There were many that did this.

[Jess from VA]

The principle way the affluent avoided the draft (until the last two years, when chances of newbs going to RVN were very low) was simply enrolling in college.  I can't tell you how many of my contemporaries in school were majoring in beer, weed, and girls with an academic major of basket weaving.  I think they only had to maintain a barely passing average to keep the 2S deferment, so they barely passed everything, and really took no real challenging academics at all.

Although it seems funny to me now since full-time (five classes) tuition at a good State university at the time was only about $300 a semester.  But nonetheless, the poor people could not even afford this to avoid the draft.

Next, came service in the various national (Army and Air) Guards and Reserves, which got harder and harder to join after it became widely known this was a way to avoid the draft into grunt combat units, with little risk of overseas service.  Here is where the good old boy network came into play.  Even though slots got harder to come by, affluent and connected families could get their sons into these units (but who can blame them, and of course it was entirely legal to joint the Guard or Reserve after all).

While many many applications were justifiably denied, over the duration of the Vietnam conflict, the Selective Service recognized 171,000 conscientious objectors; and 3,275 soldiers received discharges for conscientious objector status that developed after their induction into the military.  That's a lot of guys.  And for those that succeeded, there is little doubt many had the benefit of affluent parents to help with psychiatric, religious, and legal assistance.

Many were medicalled out, but phony Dr. reports could rather easily be contradicted by a simple military medial examination, with follow-ups as necessary.

Without question, money has always been a way to avoid military service, probably since the Roman Legions.  In the US Civil War, you could buy your way out of the draft or you could give them your slave or bonded servant into service in your stead.  Or you could pay a man to serve in your place.

Every study of the Vietnam War has concluded, in part, that the over-representation in the combat ranks of poor, under-educated, broken home, city folk contributed to poor performance in the field.  It didn't help when the Army and Marines shortened basic and follow-on individual skill training to meet the ever increasing demands for more troops on the ground in RVN.

And the one year rotation was also a big mistake.  It took about that long to learn what was going on over there.  The list of mistakes is a long one.

[hubcapsc]

... They were able to have their Dads buy deferments for them. ...

? ? ?

They were able to get doctors to provide bogus diagnosis of ailments. Bone spurs, etc.

Now its about Trump  ...

-Mike

Not at all. There were many that did this.

Hmmm....