Accusations - Are they enough? (political but also Life in general)

[G-Man]

Do we act on accusations only and demand resignations or that candidates withdraw from races.  Do we fire people, damage reputations, and embarrass families over accusations?

Seems that there are an awful lot of people that are in favor of all of the above.  Especially when it comes to accusations of sexual disobedience.  The strange thing is, I am hearing this mostly from the left side of political aisle.  When I present thoughts such as innocent until proven guilty, or 99 guilty should go free before 1 innocent is convicted wrongly, etc., I am said to be protecting a child molester.  Even republicans are jumping on the bandwagon by calling for a person accused of something (5 weeks before an election) that may or may not have happened 40 years ago, to drop out. 

I've asked it before, when did it all get so backwards?

[98valk]

a picture is worth a 1000 words, franken should be gone.

[Savago]

Dude... we are talking about minors... and the pedo was over his 30s when he did that crap.

He was/is so creepy, but so creepy, that he was banned from the mall.

[¿spoom]

This following discussion will continue according to political bent, as each side defends one and castigates the other. I guess it all comes down to the voters and legal system. Voters can vote 'em in or out, courts can lock them up or not.

[98valk]

Dude... we are talking about minors... and the pedo was over his 30s when he did that crap.

ONE WOMAN claims something happened when she was a minor. THE OTHERS WERE OVER 18 AND OVER. Using the word "minor" shows u are just repeating the lefts agenda. If u read things she has said it is clear she was trying to be much older than she was and seeking out older men. I'm sure in your life u have seen girls/woman who make themselves up to look much, much older. do u remember a few yrs ago that a lot of advertisers where making up under aged girls to look 10-15yrs older. Of course the left poohed poohed it away.
so u don't agree uncle al should be removed? do have a problem with the many photos and claims by many woman of wrong type of hugs and touching by biden? many photos of him touching young girls wrongly. and isn't it nice biden was never called for his racist remarks while a senator about owners of 7-elevens. left media shut it down real quick when it happened and never brought it up while running with obam.

[¿spoom]

This following discussion will continue according to political bent, as each side defends one and castigates the other. I guess it all comes down to the voters and legal system. Voters can vote 'em in or out, courts can lock them up or not.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Dude... we are talking about minors... and the pedo was over his 30s when he did that crap.

ONE WOMAN claims something happened when she was a minor. THE OTHERS WERE OVER 18 AND OVER. Using the word "minor" shows u are just repeating the lefts agenda. If u read things she has said it is clear she was trying to be much older than she was and seeking out older men. I'm sure in your life u have seen girls/woman who make themselves up to look much, much older. do u remember a few yrs ago that a lot of advertisers where making up under aged girls to look 10-15yrs older. Of course the left poohed poohed it away.
so u don't agree uncle al should be removed? do have a problem with the many photos and claims by many woman of wrong type of hugs and touching by biden? many photos of him touching young girls wrongly. and isn't it nice biden was never called for his racist remarks while a senator about owners of 7-elevens. left media shut it down real quick when it happened and never brought it up while running with obam.

Wrong !

http://time.com/5029172/roy-moore-accusers/

[RP#62]

Moore ought to say that he will resign just as soon as Franken and Conyers do.

-RP

[98valk]

Dude... we are talking about minors... and the pedo was over his 30s when he did that crap.

ONE WOMAN claims something happened when she was a minor. THE OTHERS WERE OVER 18 AND OVER. Using the word "minor" shows u are just repeating the lefts agenda. If u read things she has said it is clear she was trying to be much older than she was and seeking out older men. I'm sure in your life u have seen girls/woman who make themselves up to look much, much older. do u remember a few yrs ago that a lot of advertisers where making up under aged girls to look 10-15yrs older. Of course the left poohed poohed it away.
so u don't agree uncle al should be removed? do have a problem with the many photos and claims by many woman of wrong type of hugs and touching by biden? many photos of him touching young girls wrongly. and isn't it nice biden was never called for his racist remarks while a senator about owners of 7-elevens. left media shut it down real quick when it happened and never brought it up while running with obam.

Wrong !

http://time.com/5029172/roy-moore-accusers/

What Is the Age of Consent in Alabama?

In Alabama, the age of consent for sexual intercourse is 16. Generally, a person over the age of 16 can consent to sex with anyone else who is over the age of 16.

if true the one girl was 17 with parents consent, all others older, except for another one which I didn't know about, but again who was 16 from a diner which moore says he never was at.
so like I wrote only the one was under 16 and I told u about her.
so Not Wrong.

[Savago]

Vaquero: you are clearly trying to stir the pot.

First with crazy conspiracy theories and now defending pervs approaching 14 years old girls.

For God's sake, put the political view aside and ask yourself: " _ What if it was my daughter? Or my sister?"

I tell you one thing: I don't give a damn who's party is, if a pedo approaches my teenage daughter I will make sure that he won't be able to do that again to any minor in his miserable life.

[Pappy!]

I think he is just stating the facts. At the time.....Alabama's age of consent certainly was 16 years old. Legally he was able to do much more with a gal of that age than he allegedly did. Does not make it sit right in any father's head but it was the age at the time.
With the yearbook I agree that the book needs to be looked at and a determination made. The simple fact that Gloria is involved and now not handing over the book is fairly telling that the left may indeed be up to their all too normal tactics.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I think he is just stating the facts. At the time.....Alabama's age of consent certainly was 16 years old. Legally he was able to do much more with a gal of that age than he allegedly did. Does not make it sit right in any father's head but it was the age at the time.
With the yearbook I agree that the book needs to be looked at and a determination made. The simple fact that Gloria is involved and now not handing over the book is fairly telling that the left may indeed be up to their all too normal tactics.

Clearly those are not the facts. He stated only one was a minor and the rest were over 18. Either he is mistaken or just full of crap. One was 14. 2 were 16. I was 17. One was 18. This really has nothing to do with left and right.

[98valk]

I think he is just stating the facts. At the time.....Alabama's age of consent certainly was 16 years old. Legally he was able to do much more with a gal of that age than he allegedly did. Does not make it sit right in any father's head but it was the age at the time.
With the yearbook I agree that the book needs to be looked at and a determination made. The simple fact that Gloria is involved and now not handing over the book is fairly telling that the left may indeed be up to their all too normal tactics.

actually that is still Alabama's law.
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/alabama-age-of-consent-lawyers.html

[old2soon]

Gary I Know what you are saying here. I was sorta stunned-realizing of course I do NOT move in those circles-when the accusations started about cosby. Guess he Will continue to deny til he runs outa money. And keep in mind the old saw about how to tell when a politician is in Fact lying. RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

If these incidents were important, they should have been reported, investigated and perhaps prosecuted decades ago.

Now we need a republican for that senate seat and for all Federal judicial nominations for the coming years.  The good citizens of Alabama know this.

That is much more important than decades old accusations that were not reported when they allegedly occurred.

Because of the press, the press can no longer be believed about anything they report.

    

[Bighead]

Well I ain't gonna get in a pissin match here. I live in the state of Alabama and Roy Moore has held many public positions. My question is where were all these accusations when he was being appointed a judge position and other Public positions? I don't know if the accusations are true or not, but I think it should be proven. How are you gonna do that 40 yrs later ? Can't happen......so just take the accusers word?
I do know people from the same town as this was supposed to have happened and they had never heard of any such accusations.

Funny thing it has only come out a few weeks BEFORE he would have been elected. Seem curious to anyone?
He won't step down but he probably will be defeated in the race because of these accusations. He had a large lead in the polls taken before any of this was heard of.

[old2soon]

Weren't accusations that later Proved False or Untrue at one time called Slander? And weren't the slanderers later prosecuted or fined? I agree with the large cranium guy from Bama-the timing IS rather suspect. BUT suspect or not the seeds of doubt have been cast-whether true or not the "rumors" seem to be having the desired effect. Guilty til proven innocent. Recent items have proven to me anywho our whole system appears to be upside down and ass backwards. As I've stated before-seems as the inmates are indeed in charge. RIDE SAFE.

[scooperhsd]

I don't know about any one else, but WHY and WHEN did politics get so "win at any cost", even if it destroys someone for an allegation ?

If it would be up to me - we would throw out the entire Congress and start with new elections like they did for the very first election under our Constitution. -Yes, I mean all the Senators too, and the newly elected Senate would divide themselves up into 3 different classes.

And ANYONE that is currently sitting would be ineliglible.

[Pappy!]

Meathead...did you read what you wrote?  Alabama law stated that anyone 16 and over was not considered a minor as far as sexual consent goes.....! Like it or not...a 16 year old was considered an adult in that realm. That was and apparently may still be the law there.
The yearbook gal was 14 but Moore has denied knowing her and would like to set it straight by a handwriting expert. He is not being afforded that opportunity by Gloria, a big time leftist. Go figure!! More dirty politics by the left is what this looks like.... so what's new about that playbook?

[Cracker Jack]

If the accusations were true and the yearbook could be used to back up the story, it would be turned over so quick it would make your head swim.

[Jess from VA]

Against old unproven allegations, one must give a man credit for his lifetime achievements and record (when he has one).

And there's also such a thing as a statute of limitations.  (Both criminal and civil)

[The emperor has no clothes]

Meathead...did you read what you wrote?  Alabama law stated that anyone 16 and over was not considered a minor as far as sexual consent goes.....! Like it or not...a 16 year old was considered an adult in that realm. That was and apparently may still be the law there.
The yearbook gal was 14 but Moore has denied knowing her and would like to set it straight by a handwriting expert. He is not being afforded that opportunity by Gloria, a big time leftist. Go figure!! More dirty politics by the left is what this looks like.... so what's new about that playbook?

I was referring to what CA wrote.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Against old unproven allegations, one must give a man credit for his lifetime achievements and record (when he has one).

And there's also such a thing as a statute of limitations.  (Both criminal and civil)

2 of his lifetime achievements are being removed from the court for breaking the law.

[Oss]

who stands to gain by accusations 40 yrs after allegedly certain conduct occurred ?

Why were they not brought up at the time?

Yes I agree that if the accusations are not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that those pushing should be held accountable

In civil law, when asking for a preliminary injunction or permanent injunction, a bond must be posted.  I think the time has now come in politics for this concept to gain traction in some form as the media and the political left and far right are both out of their freakin minds, not caring whose life is ruined.  They should both return to the bottom of the cesspools from whence they sprang forth and leave our country to those who actually care about its citizens

Bighead, nice post

[Patrick]

Many of those accused have admitted to or paid off the accusers. Thats pretty damning.

Judge Moore has denied the accusations and it has come up lately that some of the accusers have lied being paid for the false accusations.

Innocent until proven guilty. But, heck, when it comes to sex it doesn't seem to matter. We all know of a  president that got away with it.

[98valk]

Many of those accused have admitted to or paid off the accusers. Thats pretty damning.

Judge Moore has denied the accusations and it has come up lately that some of the accusers have lied being paid for the false accusations.

Innocent until proven guilty. But, heck, when it comes to sex it doesn't seem to matter. We all know of a  president that got away with it.

and US Tax Payers money was used to pay them off. plus some are democrat icons so its ok per pelosi.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Judge Moore has denied the accusations and it has come up lately that some of the accusers have lied being paid for the false accusations.

They have ?

who stands to gain by accusations 40 yrs after allegedly certain conduct occurred ?

Why were they not brought up at the time?

Yes I agree that if the accusations are not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that those pushing should be held accountable

In civil law, when asking for a preliminary injunction or permanent injunction, a bond must be posted.  I think the time has now come in politics for this concept to gain traction in some form as the media and the political left and far right are both out of their freakin minds, not caring whose life is ruined.  They should both return to the bottom of the cesspools from whence they sprang forth and leave our country to those who actually care about its citizens

Bighead, nice post

Evan, as a lawyer I'm sure you know children don't have the wherewithal to bring forward accusations. There are many reasons young girls and woman feel nobody will believe them and don't say anything. I think the cop who talked about it being common knowledge that he cruised the mall for young girls says a lot. I think it also says a lot that many of these young woman have been lifelong republican voters.

[Robert]

I have seen many lives ruined over just allegations including those arrested and gone to jail with little or no proof because a child is pissed with the parents and wants revenge. Only later to be freed with no charges and a life ruined and now hostility in the family. We have seen Wienstien not arrested and so far is out and free over so many accusations. We see so many in political arena accused of sexual misconduct. Even to the extent of pedophile rings and trafficking and very few are arrested.

Pelosi justified her parties accused, while throwing everyone else under the bus.

I agree with others on this board the time frame is long and any evidence of misconduct is long gone. Lets also face the fact that some of these agreed to the conduct instead of stopping it in order to get some personal gain by the experience. Its says a lot about all the people involved and the victim is not totally innocent. So the accuser didn't speak up immediately and now the truth comes out years later.

All in all a slimy mess that has so many wrongs, but no, the accusation should not hold for a person to resign office unless the person has something to hide, which may be the real problem we see.

[G-Man]

So according to Savago, and of course the other guy, the answer is...........

Yes, we should act on, and ruin lives, families, and livelihoods based on accusations only.

I mean, hey, Dude, it was a minor.  What if it were your daughter?   

Tell me Savago, what if it was your son, accused of something he says he didn't do?  In your world, I guess we take the accuser's word as truth and throw your son away.  Make him register wherever he lives as a sex offender from now on.  Make him divulge this on every job application he fills out, make women run away from him when they find out?  Just because he's been accused!

[¿spoom]

Stop me if this sounds familiar, but the following discussion will continue according to political bent, as each side defends one and castigates the other. I guess it all comes down to the voters and legal system. Voters can vote 'em in or out, courts can lock them up or not.

To answer the OP, no, I don't think anything should be done based on accusations, only convictions. Similar to holding up laws with baseless suits that get filed with friendly courts and then overturned after months of appeals, it now appears more than likely that accusations have/will be used to affect elections. I have to err on the side of caution-not punishing someone who's presumed innocent until proven guilty. Though frequently an embarrassment himself, I believe the President is 100% correct when he says it's up to the voters of AL. Politics is and may have always been a checker board, and people fight to get more red checkers or black checkers. George Washington loathed political parties and wanted them banned, but we are faced with what we have today-binary choices on most everything. MN voters knew Al Franken was a mean-spirited buffoon when they voted for him, so there's no reason he should be tossed out of office now, for being a mean-spirited buffoon. If merited, let him be convicted of something and locked up. MN is a solid blue state with a Democrat Governor so Franken's appointed replacement will/would still be a "blue checker" which is why nobody's really caring about him. He actually kept a straight face when saying he was returning to DC and wants to convince folks he can be counted on to be a champion for "protecting women".  Does that mean he'll be fighting to lock himself up or something? Heck, women need to be protected FROM him
Alabama is up for play, so it's a war zone and MN isn't.
I was born in 1955, so all I knew as a child is that JFK could walk on water, and was shot. All the adults were crying, so I cried, too. Then I learned that people could replace him and the Country wasn't going fold. Years later I got to learn about the Bay of Pigs, plans to assassinate foreign leaders, even people being threatened with IRS audits if they didn't come up with a key vote. I have no doubt Kennedy would have been re-elected. Judging by the fact a vile person like Hillary is still free, I assume she has pictures of lots of people having sex with animals or burying bodies by moonlight. Currently knives are being sharpened in case Kushner doesn't produce documents he was ordered to turn over, while we're still waiting for Hillary to do the same. Makes it impossible to have any trust over anything in DC right now, so if AL wants to choose by the color of checker piece, I wouldn't blame them a bit. All that counts is amount of red & blue checkers in the House and Senate. Since Republican are currently in power, Democrats are demanding they commit suicide. Can't blame them for demanding anything if it works. People demanded that a certain POS coward from AZ prove his claim from the immunity of the House floor that Romney "didn't pay any taxes" even though he knew it was a lie. People rightly roll their eyes over Trump's mocking "Pocahontas", but has she been arrested? Made to make restitution for the college $ perks she got? Made to take a DNA test to verify her claims? AL is a drop in a very large bucket. I don't care if Roy Moore gets elected, I DO care if he doesn't get a day in court, and that he or his accusers don't get their day(s) in prison. Put 'em in the Clinton Wing of the Contra/Watergate Federal Prison.

[G-Man]

I do know people from the same town as this was supposed to have happened and they had never heard of any such accusations.

But one person said it was common knowledge that he was a bad guy?

Yet he continued to be elected, and win public office.  So, how common was all that knowledge???  Surely no common sense was used in perpetuating that silliness here, but it is expected from the poster of that talking point.

[¿spoom]

I do know people from the same town as this was supposed to have happened and they had never heard of any such accusations.

But one person said it was common knowledge that he was a bad guy?

Yet he continued to be elected, and win public office.  So, how common was all that knowledge???  Surely no common sense was used in perpetuating that silliness here, but it is expected from the poster of that talking point.

The more I think about it, I hope Moore wins in a landslide. Maybe that will help stem last minute accusations becoming a part of every campaign. If the accusations are true, he can be tried and sent "up the river" (right, Westchester residents?   ) and if not, no election was "stolen" and he won't have to write a book about What Happened.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Moore has been accused of giving a 14-year-old girl alcohol and touching her inappropriately in 1979, when he was 32 years old, The Washington Post reported last week. Three other women told the publication that Moore pursued them when they were between 16 and 18 years old. On Monday, another woman accused Moore of sexually assaulting her when she was 16. Moore has denied the allegations.

Two of these women say Moore attempted to pick them up when they were at the Gadsden Mall.

Greg Legat, who worked at the mall in the 1980s, told Bethea that he remembers Moore was banned from the shopping center starting around 1979. Legat recalled that the mall was often “filled” with unchaperoned teens.

A local police officer, J.D. Thomas, reportedly often asked Legat to keep an eye out for Moore. ”‘If you see Moore here, tell me. I’ll take care of him,’” Legat remembers Thomas telling him, according to The New Yorker.

Alabama journalist Glynn Wilson reported Sunday that he had heard similar allegations: “Sources tell me Moore was actually banned from the Gadsden Mall and the YMCA for his inappropriate behavior of soliciting sex from young girls.”

Other people who frequented the mall during the 1980s told The New Yorker they believed Moore had been banned for “trying to pick up younger girls.”

Two police officers who worked in the area at the time also told Bethea that Moore was known for hanging around the mall to find dates.

“The general knowledge at the time when I moved here was that this guy is a lawyer cruising the mall for high-school dates,” one officer said. “I was told by a girl who worked at the mall that he’d been run off from there, from a number of stores. Maybe not legally banned, but run off.”

Are 2 Police Officers to be believed ?

"The other poster"

[98valk]

Are 2 Police Officers to be believed ?

"The other poster"

the Arkansas state troopers reports were not believed about boy clinton's sexual exploits including rape.

[98valk]

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/20/exclusive-ex-boyfriend-of-roy-moore-accuser-i-dont-believe-her/


also see a real signature and the one in the yr book, they don't match up.

[Pappy!]

Well looky here!
The Washington Post of all papers just exposed one of Moore's accusers. Say it ain't so!!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/11/28/how-washington-post-exposed-effort-to-peddle-phony-allegations-against-roy-moore.html

The left would never stoop so low....nawww !

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well looky here!
The Washington Post of all papers just exposed one of Moore's accusers. Say it ain't so!!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/11/28/how-washington-post-exposed-effort-to-peddle-phony-allegations-against-roy-moore.html

The left would never stoop so low....nawww !

Pappy, she wasn't a Moore accuser. She was a plant for the douchie organization Project Veritas. She was trying to get the reporters to incriminate themselves. In order to make it look like the accusers were lying. When caught her story crumbled. They ought to be ashamed of themselves but I doubt they are.

[Pappy!]

Washington Post clearly stated it was an attempt against Roy Moore. It is even in the header.
If you look at Fox home page right now you will see this headline. For once they did not fall for it. Maybe Trump is having an effect on Fake News!

The header....."How WaPo exposed Roy Moore sex scandal sting attempt"

What more do you need again ??

[The emperor has no clothes]

Washington Post clearly stated it was an attempt against Roy Moore. It is even in the header.
If you look at Fox home page right now you will see this headline. For once they did not fall for it. Maybe Trump is having an effect on Fake News!

The header....."How WaPo exposed Roy Moore sex scandal sting attempt"

What more do you need again ??

Read the article.

[Savago]

Tell me Savago, what if it was your son, accused of something he says he didn't do? 

If it was my 30-something son, I would be the first to deliver him to the cops. And would next hire a lawyer for him having the due process.