EBC rotor and pads flutter

[sunrisor]

I've read a lot of threads about EBC front rotors and pads, but none have a similar issue as what I'm having.  So I had to start a new one...

'97 Tourer, just put new MD1014X rotors with FA142 pads.  Now I'm having an unusual noise.

When I was a kid (yes, gonna show my age), I used to take a clothes pin and clip a playing card to my bicycle, to make that cool fluttering noise (hmmm...HDs kinda sound like that )...

That's the noise I hear with even slight brake application.  I pulled the pads back out, all looked normal.  Slight marking on the rotor, expected...no noticeable interference anywhere.  I did hear it when I spun the wheel after I put it back on, but didn't hear it while riding.  Only when I apply the front brake.

I noticed the holes in the rotors don't have chamfers, I was thinking this might be the cause.  I think I hear it from the right side, but I'm not sure.  I'm not a racer, but I put drilled/slotted rotors on 4-wheelers many times and never heard that noise (but the holes have chamfers).

Someone please tell me this will go away after a few miles...   Anyone else experience this?

[Avanti]

Do you have the brake pad retainer on the caliper bracket properly.

[Tfrank59]

Do you have the brake pad retainer on the caliper bracket properly.

 


Remember your front calipers float so they have some slop in them actually and I hear quite a bit of Clickety Clack when I go over bumps and such but it's normal. I have an EBC rotor on my rear wheel but don't hear any noise back there--maybe it's cuz my exhaust drowns it out!  (BTW, I don't think the lack of chamfer on the holes is the problem, IMO).  I started with EBC pads, but they weren't very effective so I switched and tried a few (including OEM Honda), and strangely I ended up with Kevlar pads, which seemed about as good on stopping as any I'd tried--better than some--and didn't tear up my new rotor.

[sunrisor]

Avanti,
Do you mean the clip on the end or the one on top?   That you mention it, the end clip fell out, but I think it only fits in one way.   The end of of the pads fit into that clip.  Either way, I don't think it can rub on anything though...
Hopefully I can ride it tomorrow, I live in SE Pa, it's been raining pretty much steadily for the last 6 weeks, what a PITA!!

...and I replaced EBC pads, but they were on the original rotors.  They were close to the min., with a bit of scoring so I decided to replace them.  I agree with the others in that EBC pads are noisy, but I don't really have any complaints about stopping, but I'm a cruiser, not a racer.  Maybe that's why...dunno.
All I know is that flutter is a little un-nerving.  I  was only able to take it around the block, because of the   ..ing rain!!  not really a good test I guess.  Will know more tomorrow...I hope.

update:  rode to work today, 20-mile trip.  First started out, no noise.  Not from a slow stop, not from a more aggressive stop.  After a 15-mile highway speed jaunt, went to slow for the off ramp, and there it was.  The flutter is there a slow stop and is louder from a higher speed.  Now, maybe the noise was there and just didn't hear it above the traffic noise..not sure.

[Highbinder]

After you put the front wheel back on, did you reset the front end?  Sounds like something is hitting the rotor. There is a procedure to reset the caliphers instructed in the manuel.  I've had a ticking kinda noise after pulling the front wheel, I just loosen the pinch bolts on the right side facing the front and pry the fork over, usually moves maybe a 1/4 inch just enough to fix the problem.

[9Ball]

How are your wheel bearings?  Could these be making the noise(clicking) that you hear?

[sunrisor]

The wheel bearings are original, but they weren't making any noise before the rotor-change (was going to do that during the winter).

I put the axle in, torqued it to spec (don't remember it offhand).  Then I tightened the pinch bolts, left side first (I think).  All while the front end was off the ground.

I've had the wheels off a bunch of times for various reasons over the years...tire changes, rear diff issues, etc. but never had this kind of noise before.  I like that one though, it makes the most sense, I will check it when I get home tonight.  I messed up the final drive gear 2 tire-changes ago because I didn't follow the procedure in the service manual for R&R the rear wheel (paid a heavy price for that screw-up).  Shoulda known to check if there was a procedure for the front wheel.

[Detn8er]

"I put the axle in, torqued it to spec (don't remember it offhand).  Then I tightened the pinch bolts, left side first (I think).  All while the front end was off the ground."

This Is The Wrong Procedure & most likely your issue.... Redo it using the instructions in shop talk on tire change and your problem will magically go poof.

[sunrisor]

Forgot I had a PDF of the service manual here at work.  I torqued the axle bolt before I tightened any of the pinch bolts.
The book says to tighten LS pinch bolts, torque the axle, put on the ground, squeeze the front brake lever and jounce the front forks to help seat the axle, THEN tighten RS pinch bolts.  Which I definitely didn't do.

I'm gonna try that.  I will post an update.
Thanks for everyone's input!!

[Tfrank59]

Forgot I had a PDF of the service manual here at work.  I torqued the axle bolt before I tightened any of the pinch bolts.
The book says to tighten LS pinch bolts, put on the ground, squeeze the front brake lever to help seat the axle, THEN torque the axle bolt, THEN tighten RS pinch bolts.  Which I definitely didn't do.

I'm gonna try that.  I will post an update.
Thanks for everyone's input!!

Oops

[Highbinder]

Some times going back and doing the procedure doesn't correct the problem.  What is going on is the axle didn't seat correctly on the right side, so when you tighten the axle bolt it will pull the fork leg over just slightly causing the calipher to hit the rotor somewhere.  I usually hit the axle on the right side with a rubber malllet, just to make sure the axle is set.  When this happens now I just put a pry bar in between the rotor and fork leg and pry it over, you can actually see it move ever so slightly.. good luck, hope this solves your problem..

[sunrisor]

Update:  Tonight I loosened the RS pinch bolts, then loosened the axle bolt.  Then I took a 3' pry bar and moved the RS fork tube outward a few times, then tightened axle bolt, then pinch bolts.
...did nothing.  I took the RS caliper off...again...looking for any sign of rubbing....nothing that I could see.  I took a screwdriver and pushed on the anti rattle clips, to make sure they were seated (even though they looked fine).  Took it for a test ride, and I think it actually sounds worse now.

In the 21 years that I've had this bike, I've had the front wheel off at least 5 times (4 sets of tires and now brake rotors).  I've never had this problem...ever!  And I never followed the manual's procedure.  What I did this time, I did the other 4 times.

2 things come to mind: the EBC rotors are contacting something (calipers/pads/something) which side? I have no idea, could be both sides, even though I see no evidence of any rubbing.  The other thing is the speedo gear box.  Any chance that is making that noise?  Maybe I don't have it up against the stop.  I haven't put grease in it in awhile....

Does anyone know what the original rotor thickness is?  What they started out as.  I know the min is 4mm on the factory rotors, these EBC rotors the min is 4.2mm.  maybe they are too thick?  I can't see how, I see plenty of clearance between the caliper and rotor.  Book says .03", I see at least that.

...very fustrating...!

[Avanti]

Lift the front end and free spin the front wheel, maybe this will help you detect what the problem is.

[hubcapsc]

I've scanned back through the replies, I don't think this has been mentioned.

Your axle needs to be flush with the fork, not sticking out any...



-Mike

[Robert]

I seriously doubt you have a problem, the slotted rotors may sometimes make a noise on the pads. I have heard that before and since you did not get the sintered pads and they may be the issue. The EBC rotors can use the sintered pads.

You could pull out a pad and see if the wear pattern is ok, which it more than likely will be but other than that I don't think you have a real problem. On my 1500 I had the wave rotors and once in awhile I would hear the noise you are describing. Its almost a buzz type of noise. I tended to ignore it when I heard it since I knew it was the pad and rotor combo. Plus I did have the sintered pads on mine.

If you have no pulse through the bike or brake lever, if you checked and there is no binding and the rotors are going between the caliper centered or in the middle of the caliper close to where the halves are put together I doubt you have a problem and its just the slotted rotors that have been known to do it.

[sunrisor]

Mike,
Good idea, it was in all the way.

I thought I would put this update in so the next person doesn't go as crazy as I did

the next chapter:
I lifted the front wheel today:  no noise.  I removed both calipers, double checked everything I could see.  clips fully seated, no evidence of rubbing anywhere.

So, the conclusion is (as someone already said earlier) I think I'm worried about nothing.   The instructions say to wait 200-300 miles before bedding in, I'm at 153.  Should make the mark some time tomorrow/Monday.  I guess I have to hope the noise, at the very least quiets up a little.  Otherwise, I may try a different type of pad.  I think someone mentioned sintered, I think the ones I have currently are organic.

I really appreciate everyone's input, and patience to read my rants.
thanks again!!!

[sunrisor]

Robert, are those chrome covers on your fork tubes? or did you bet them chromed?

[Bighead]

Robert, are those chrome covers on your fork tubes? or did you bet them chromed?

Covers

[Tfrank59]

Mike,
Good idea, it was in all the way.

I thought I would put this update in so the next person doesn't go as crazy as I did

the next chapter:
I lifted the front wheel today:  no noise.  I removed both calipers, double checked everything I could see.  clips fully seated, no evidence of rubbing anywhere.

So, the conclusion is (as someone already said earlier) I think I'm worried about nothing.   The instructions say to wait 200-300 miles before bedding in, I'm at 153.  Should make the mark some time tomorrow/Monday.  I guess I have to hope the noise, at the very least quiets up a little.  Otherwise, I may try a different type of pad.  I think someone mentioned sintered, I think the ones I have currently are organic.

I really appreciate everyone's input, and patience to read my rants.
thanks again!!!

 I'm sorry about your frustration I wish I could say I feel your pain but I've had my front wheel off four or five times and havent experienced anything what you're going through. And one time I didn't put enough grease on it and next time trying to remove it I had to beat the crap out of the axle to get it out of there thought I would ruin everything but it turned out OK. I've got to say that if you're running organic pads which is Kevlar I think And you're going to go to sintered  that's gonna be the noisier I'm afraid, at least that's been my experience. All in all though if nothing is rubbing it is just noise from the pads then you really are you're OK it's just a drag that something has changed and you can't really  nail down what exactly it is, that is always frustrating.

[sunrisor]

So here is the final chapter:  I bedded them in yesterday.  During the process the front brake fluttering-noise got REALLY loud.  However, once they cooled down it was almost gone.

This morning it is barely noticable most times, only when they heat up a little did I hear it.

Again, thanks for everyone's input.  I hope that somewhere in the future, this helps someone else from going nuts...over nothing...