Who would you lay off?

[fudgie]

Young, 30-40 yr olds, that are very good at there jobs and are willing to help or older 45+ who don't care to help?

Our towns city Fd has just laid off 6 young, energetic, willing to help, in shape FF. The older ones remain and some are even about ready to retire. The older ones really don't like to do runs, esp with us.
Reasons behind this is lack of communication between the mayor and the rest of the council. Someone didn't pass long that they are low on funds until they dug them into a $1.5 mill hole. So the FD was 1st to go. They have 13 men on duty a day in a town of 30,000. They do have to many guys for the work they do, or lack of doing. Most are upset over how they lay off. Bottom up. Some of these 6 have been on since 2002.  Most of the 6 have even become medics to help us out.  We don't understand why lay off the 'good' ones and keep the old ones. Has to do with their union they say. 4 more or up to go Jan 1st. Only 2 lay off at the PD. No coincident the mayor is a former cop!  They may do a run a day with us or nothing for a couple days. We run 8 medics a day in a whole county of 55,000 and are up to over 3300 runs so far this year. The FD would be lucky to break 200. Plus they make twice as much as I do. 

[¿spoom]

Isn't that normal and all part of the contract? Right or not, seniority within the bargaining unit usually rules. Assuming there's provision for various job classifications what else should they do? I worked 20 years in a union shop and 9 i non-union and under stand the pros & cons of each, just not sure what else should have been done? Doesn't the contract they voted in cover layoffs?

[fudgie]

Isn't that normal and all part of the contract? Right or not, seniority within the bargaining unit usually rules. Assuming there's provision for various job classifications what else should they do? I worked 20 years in a union shop and 9 i non-union and under stand the pros & cons of each, just not sure what else should have been done? Doesn't the contract they voted in cover layoffs?

Not that I'm aware of. There has never been a layoff since the FD was formed in the horse and buggy days. Its just hard to believe you would get rid of the most active people and keep 'unactive'.    Here we try and knock off the worthless. We got one pending! 

They are looking at some kind of grant to get them put back on. It worked in Indy but might take a little time to apply and get the grant money.

[Jack]

It may be just a ploy.  They raised our city sales tax here a 1/2 cent as a "safety" tax to avoid lay-offs in the pd and fd and may even hire a couple.  $2.5 million a year is expected.  I'd say that might pay a couple of new salaries.  Of course, the excess will likely be siphoned away into the general fund.

If they want to lay off more senior employees, they will have to give them some incentive.

[threevalks]

   If you were 55, had been on the job for 35 years.  Another man 27 years old, that had been on job 6 years took your job, how would that go over ? Also, if you're lucky, one day you will be that 55 year old with 35 years experience.        THINK ABOUT IT.
 

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

   If you were 55, had been on the job for 35 years.  Another man 27 years old, that had been on job 6 years took your job, how would that go over ? Also, if you're lucky, one day you will be that 55 year old with 35 years experience.        THINK ABOUT IT.
 

Could not have said it better 

[sheets]

Last hired = first fired. (usually).

[R J]

Currently the best method is walk around the parking lot looking for Obama bumper stickers.

Lay them off 1st...............................

Oh, come on, LAUGH..........................  We all know he is worthless and being a puppet boy for someone with a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.  Someone from a Foriegn country.

[fudgie]

   If you were 55, had been on the job for 35 years.  Another man 27 years old, that had been on job 6 years took your job, how would that go over ? Also, if you're lucky, one day you will be that 55 year old with 35 years experience.        THINK ABOUT IT.
 

In this line of work its hard to tell. Luckily we don't hire this way. There is alot of physcal activity. I'm 33 yrs old and cannot do the stuff, well the physical stuff  , that I could in my 20's. I applied and so glad now, that I did not get hired. They hire people with no expierience instead of those with 10 yrs of fire service. Its political also here but won't get into that. Here at my place we get rid of the weak. Or try to. But then again we are dealing with peoples lives.

[Normandog]

   If you were 55, had been on the job for 35 years.  Another man 27 years old, that had been on job 6 years took your job, how would that go over ? Also, if you're lucky, one day you will be that 55 year old with 35 years experience.        THINK ABOUT IT.
 

Could not have said it better 

ditto

[Capt. Morgan]

As one in the Fire Service I can see some of your point. We have when fully staffed 5 full-time and 2 to 3 part time on duty each day. We respond to about 2000 calls a year and each of us do everything. drive, hump hose, and EMS. I am 55 and hope to retire in a year with 25 years service. Your are right that this is a young persons job, but why should I work for so many years to earn my pension and then lose it to a person just because they are younger.
Also when I got hired I was 31, the "oldest", and was #2 on list. I beat the 20+ "young people" that should have been in great shape.

[Sludge]

Currently the best method is walk around the parking lot looking for Obama bumper stickers.

Lay them off 1st...............................

Oh, come on, LAUGH..........................  We all know he is worthless and being a puppet boy for someone with a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.  Someone from a Foriegn country.

Im not laughing... for real... lay them off first.

[bsnicely]

As a law enforcement officer with 33 yrs service behind me and 3.5 to go till retirement I would see it as tragic to lay off the older men first. These guys have served their community with a retirement promised them when they are done. It would be a breach of trust to do away with them first. The city is probably worried about age discrimination suits, and rightly so. In my agency lay off decisions are made by considering years of service and performance evaluations. Just because a guy has been around 30 yrs isn't enough to ensure his continued employment but yrs service is the biggest factor. Thank goodness, we haven't had to deal with lay offs since back in the 80's.

[fudgie]

As one in the Fire Service I can see some of your point. We have when fully staffed 5 full-time and 2 to 3 part time on duty each day. We respond to about 2000 calls a year and each of us do everything. drive, hump hose, and EMS. I am 55 and hope to retire in a year with 25 years service. Your are right that this is a young persons job, but why should I work for so many years to earn my pension and then lose it to a person just because they are younger.
Also when I got hired I was 31, the "oldest", and was #2 on list. I beat the 20+ "young people" that should have been in great shape.

I see your point. I been doing EMS since 97 and a FF since 94.
But the ones that they layed off or the ones that are the most helpful and have better training. We do a med run and when they get there 1st they stand there and wonder when we are getting there. No o2 or bp. They refer to themselves as 'pack mules' for us EMS. The young ones get there and perform the app care. We know who is working and what station we get before we would call for there help. They do ALOT of bitching when they go on a med run. The Fd does not respond to all our runs. Without us they would have 1 run a week. 2 weeks ago we had a car into a pond. witness said they saw the driver run afterwards. We get there and want the FD to get a ladder and check the rest of the SUV to be sure no one else was in it. They said we see no one. did you get in and check? No we looked from shore. 12' away from shore. Its not your ass on the line if we leave and wrecker finds someone inside on the floor of the trunk. It took me to ask 5 guys and the Asst chief 3x for 10 min before they would look inside.
I guess we look at it as a pt care issue. 
We are looking at ways to hire some of the laid off medics to help them out. We have no openings right now but are trying to knock 1 off so we can.

[Ben]

Fudgie,  Heart attack is  #1 killer of Fire Fighters,....PLEASE keep this in mind when your on scene
Carry extra O2 for the  Old guys...
-Ben_

former crash fire and rescue (58 years old)

[fudgie]

As a law enforcement officer with 33 yrs service behind me and 3.5 to go till retirement I would see it as tragic to lay off the older men first. These guys have served their community with a retirement promised them when they are done. It would be a breach of trust to do away with them first. The city is probably worried about age discrimination suits, and rightly so. In my agency lay off decisions are made by considering years of service and performance evaluations. Just because a guy has been around 30 yrs isn't enough to ensure his continued employment but yrs service is the biggest factor. Thank goodness, we haven't had to deal with lay offs since back in the 80's.

A have a good record with a blemish or 2 from the early years. Numberous State awards, extra cetifications, and head of our bike patrol, etc. Even with 10 folks under me I could still go at anytime.

[fudgie]

Fudgie,  Heart attack is  #1 killer of Fire Fighters,....PLEASE keep this in mind when your on scene
Carry extra O2 for the  Old guys...
-Ben_

former crash fire and rescue (58 years old)

  We help them out all the time. We drag hose, change bottles, what ever they need. We even have been know to run in and get an old guys pictures and war medals off his walls while the FF fight the fire. 

Gotta say tho, nothing better then packing up and going into a burning house. 

[Hoser]

I retired off a larger FD, retired in 03 after 34 years service.  72 0n duty every day.  We ran every EMS call along with the EMS company just so the victims could get life support early, usually had them packaged and ready to go when the EMS got there.  They had 4 trucks with 8 ALS personnel for a county of 200,000 people.  Our response time averaged 5 minutes or less, just made sense.  12 engines 4 trucks 2 aerials out of  12 stations.  All company personnel  are required to pass the entry agility test regardless of age.  I did'nt have to as shift commander, but did it anyway just to set an example for my shift.  Some of my toughest firefighters were in thier 40s.  Oh yeah, we also answered around 12,000 fire calls a year in addition.  We didn't have to suffer any layoffs, but if we had it would have been last hired, first fired, and rightfully so. Hoser    ???  

[Charlie]

Currently the best method is walk around the parking lot looking for Obama bumper stickers.

Lay them off 1st...............................

Oh, come on, LAUGH..........................  We all know he is worthless and being a puppet boy for someone with a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.  Someone from a Foriegn country.

Totally uncalled for comment.  No one brought politics into this.  Geeezzzzeee RJ.  If you have something to offer on the subject, do so, otherwise keep your bs to yourself.

Regarding the subject, I have worked for both Union and non union companies.  When it came to layoffs, seniority usually rules, unless there is a undeniable reason to go under seniority.  That would be if the young person was the only person who could do the job.  It usually doesn't have a lot to do with level of ability, just ability.  Smokin Joe is right.  After you put that much time into a job, you have a reasonable expectation to be retained in harder times.

[Rescueroy]

I agree with Hoser.  Retired after 33 years in the FD, 23 on a heavy rescue.  It works both ways, some of the ALS people are not that great either and wait for FD to do most of their work.  As far as the car in the pond, we would of had our water rescue team on the scene.  By the way I did get laid off from the FD in 1971 with one year in the Dept. Just this week our town announced they are laying off 41 cops and 25 firefighters in January 2010. Roy

[MNBill]

Our county offered a retirement incentive last year, $30000 into a health care spending account so the retirees could get health insurance until they qualified for medicare. I think it took about 15-20 people off payroll and the ones that needed to be replaced were replaced with lower paid people (lower on pay scale). We also agreed to take 1 unpaid day a month to help our younger newer guys keep their jobs. This was a more effective way of dealing with the budget shortfalls. Our County did it BEFORE the deficit hit which helped too. $30000 again this year and I will be catching more wind for sure !!

[laborman]

If there is a contract - you can BET there is Job Security language.  Seniority prevails.  Much less, if you lay off the older workers because they are older - you just violated Fed law.  I have bargained many contracts.  Contracts are in place to (1) protect the workers and (2) limit mgmt rights.  It is a great system that keeps all things in check.  If not, believe you me - mgmt would get rid of the older workers who cost more (more pay per hour), have medical bene's that cost more, etc., etc.