Learned something today

[Chrisj CMA]

Well actually a couple things.  

So were supposed to meet up for breakfast (3 Valkyries and a VTX)  So my friend had his '98 Tourer out today and shortly after leaving the house it starting with some strange symptoms.
 -neutral light stopped working
 -blinkers stopped working
 -tach stopped working
 -and no running lights or license plate light.

My first thought was the alternator because when my 55A fuse blew the tach stopped at some point until I figured it out.

Battery 13V engine off.  Up to 14.2 V engine running, so its not the alternator.  Hmmmmm

Next we check all the fuses.  The 10A for rear lights and meter was bad. Perfect problem found.  put a new fuse in and it promptly blew 3 seconds after they key is turned on.

Well, Our new guy in the group (Paul) is the electrical wizard of the group.  I know how to check voltage on a battery that's about it.  So Paul says we need to start checking the light bulbs for ohms (continuity) or some mumbo jumbo that I didn't understand.  We already checked the bulbs and they looked fine.  So he ohms checked them and they checked out fine.  

First thing I learned...how to check a fuse or a bulb with my volt meter.  I knew it had a bazillion settings that I had no clue how to use.  Now I know how to use two of them.

So we put the bulbs back in and all is well.  On closer look there was a little bit of fine corrosion on the bulbs and sockets, so little you'd miss it if you weren't looking for it.  Got some steel wool and cleaned everything up and all was fixed.

So if you have some strange electrical stuff going on, fuses burning up, it can be just the connection between the bulb and socket.  Who knew!?!?  That was the second thing I learned.

 

[WintrSol]

There's a reason they sell silicone grease in little packets labeled 'bulb grease'. It helps keep that corrosion off the contacts and base of the bulbs, if used in a thin film.

[Chrisj CMA]

There's a reason they sell silicone grease in little packets labeled 'bulb grease'. It helps keep that corrosion off the contacts and base of the bulbs, if used in a thin film.

LOL, seen it never used it. 45 years of owning motorcycles, this is the first time Ive seen negative result of not using it.  Guess Ill get some next time I'm at auto zone 

[Jess from VA]

When we put our collapsible fishing poles together (as kids), one of the dads had us grease the pole connections by rubbing them on the side of our noses. 

There's almost always a bit of human grease on the side of your nose (and maybe a lot if you're a kid).

Probably not as good as silicone, but you always have your nose with you.    

[Chrisj CMA]

When we put our collapsible fishing poles together (as kids), one of the dads had us grease the pole connections by rubbing them on the side of our noses. 

There's almost always a bit of human grease on the side of your nose (and maybe a lot if you're a kid).

Probably not as good as silicone, but you always have your nose with you.    

Thats just gross!  I dont want anyones nose grease in my tail light!!!! 

[Jess from VA]

When we put our collapsible fishing poles together (as kids), one of the dads had us grease the pole connections by rubbing them on the side of our noses. 

There's almost always a bit of human grease on the side of your nose (and maybe a lot if you're a kid).

Probably not as good as silicone, but you always have your nose with you.    

Thats just gross!  I dont want anyones nose grease in my tail light!!!! 

Not even your own?   

[The emperor has no clothes]

When we put our collapsible fishing poles together (as kids), one of the dads had us grease the pole connections by rubbing them on the side of our noses. 

There's almost always a bit of human grease on the side of your nose (and maybe a lot if you're a kid).

Probably not as good as silicone, but you always have your nose with you.    

I was wondering why you had those solder stripes on your nose in Roanoke. 

[Cracker Jack]

Well actually a couple things.  

So were supposed to meet up for breakfast (3 Valkyries and a VTX)  So my friend had his '98 Tourer out today and shortly after leaving the house it starting with some strange symptoms.
 -neutral light stopped working
 -blinkers stopped working
 -tach stopped working
 -and no running lights or license plate light.

My first thought was the alternator because when my 55A fuse blew the tach stopped at some point until I figured it out.

Battery 13V engine off.  Up to 14.2 V engine running, so its not the alternator.  Hmmmmm

Next we check all the fuses.  The 10A for rear lights and meter was bad. Perfect problem found.  put a new fuse in and it promptly blew 3 seconds after they key is turned on.

Well, Our new guy in the group (Paul) is the electrical wizard of the group.  I know how to check voltage on a battery that's about it.  So Paul says we need to start checking the light bulbs for ohms (continuity) or some mumbo jumbo that I didn't understand.  We already checked the bulbs and they looked fine.  So he ohms checked them and they checked out fine.  

First thing I learned...how to check a fuse or a bulb with my volt meter.  I knew it had a bazillion settings that I had no clue how to use.  Now I know how to use two of them.

So we put the bulbs back in and all is well.  On closer look there was a little bit of fine corrosion on the bulbs and sockets, so little you'd miss it if you weren't looking for it.  Got some steel wool and cleaned everything up and all was fixed.

So if you have some strange electrical stuff going on, fuses burning up, it can be just the connection between the bulb and socket.  Who knew!?!?  That was the second thing I learned.

 

I can't say what your problem was but your solution does not follow the science in this case.

Fuses blow because of over current which would not be a result of added resistance in the circuit as you seem to indicate. Typically over current would be a result of decreased internal resistance of the device or a short circuit in the hot side wiring. Any added resistance in the circuit would cause a decrease in current and would not cause a blown fuse.

I believe there is something else going on in your case that you may not be aware of.

[98valk]

There's a reason they sell silicone grease in little packets labeled 'bulb grease'. It helps keep that corrosion off the contacts and base of the bulbs, if used in a thin film.

LOL, seen it never used it. 45 years of owning motorcycles, this is the first time Ive seen negative result of not using it.  Guess Ill get some next time I'm at auto zone 

silicone grease aka bulb grease, and o-ring lubricate does not conduct electricity. so make sure its not on the contact areas.

[Chrisj CMA]

There's a reason they sell silicone grease in little packets labeled 'bulb grease'. It helps keep that corrosion off the contacts and base of the bulbs, if used in a thin film.

LOL, seen it never used it. 45 years of owning motorcycles, this is the first time Ive seen negative result of not using it.  Guess Ill get some next time I'm at auto zone 

silicone grease aka bulb grease, and o-ring lubricate does not conduct electricity. so make sure its not on the contact areas.

Bulb grease is the same thing as dielectric grease.  A thin film of dielectric grease should not impede the flow of electricity on a Standard 1156/1157. On a more high tech bulb with a gasket seal I would only put the grease on the gasket or seal.

[98valk]

There's a reason they sell silicone grease in little packets labeled 'bulb grease'. It helps keep that corrosion off the contacts and base of the bulbs, if used in a thin film.

LOL, seen it never used it. 45 years of owning motorcycles, this is the first time Ive seen negative result of not using it.  Guess Ill get some next time I'm at auto zone 

silicone grease aka bulb grease, and o-ring lubricate does not conduct electricity. so make sure its not on the contact areas.

Bulb grease is the same thing as dielectric grease.  A thin film of dielectric grease should not impede the flow of electricity on a Standard 1156/1157. On a more high tech bulb with a gasket seal I would only put the grease on the gasket or seal.

the word "dielectric" means it doesn't conduct electricity.  higher capacity electrical wires use a silicone outer casing.  put it around the contacts for best performance.

[WintrSol]

There's a reason they sell silicone grease in little packets labeled 'bulb grease'. It helps keep that corrosion off the contacts and base of the bulbs, if used in a thin film.

LOL, seen it never used it. 45 years of owning motorcycles, this is the first time Ive seen negative result of not using it.  Guess Ill get some next time I'm at auto zone  

silicone grease aka bulb grease, and o-ring lubricate does not conduct electricity. so make sure its not on the contact areas.

The pressure of the spring(s) pushes the grease out of the way, allowing good contact. I've never had a problem using dielectric grease on bulbs or switches. The dielectric property prevents corrosion from stray electric fields.

[9Ball]

Careful application and sparingly are two good uses for dielectric grease.  I use it on all my non-sealed connectors after cleaning with contact cleaner.  Helps to keep crud out of sockets and often makes them easier to get apart at a later time.

[Pete]

If the crud on the bulb conducts electricity from the + side to ground it will indeed blow a fuse.

[MarkT]

I put dielectric grease on fuse panel contacts before I knew how to use it, on Deerslayer.  It caused a fire and melted my fuse panel at one position.  Now I know that grease is supposed to be applied AFTER the connection is made.  I have been using regular GP grease on 12v bulb sockets for most of my adult life.  Displaces air and moisture away from ther contacts and prevents galvanic corrosion. Such grease also does not block electricity or conduct well enough to short at 12v.

[da prez]

  Corrosion causes high resistance. High resistance causes (sometimes) fuses to blow. Dia-electric grease makes an air tight connection. Air tight eliminates (most times) corrosion. A little dis-electric grease goes a long way. When I redo or install , I use the dia-electric. On spark plugs , easier to install and remove , plus keeps water out. (those of us who ride in the h2o). This is also true for ground connections.

                                                 da prez

[DGS65]

  Corrosion equals resistance however rust is conductive and can and will cause a short which will blow fuses!
While I'm not an electrician I am in the low voltage alarm and telephone business I work with 12 volts for a living.  I would highly recommend anyone who currently doesn't know how to use a multimeter should take the time to learn at some point it may save you a lot of time and money!

[Cracker Jack]

  Corrosion causes high resistance. High resistance causes (sometimes) fuses to blow. Dia-electric grease makes an air tight connection. Air tight eliminates (most times) corrosion. A little dis-electric grease goes a long way. When I redo or install , I use the dia-electric. On spark plugs , easier to install and remove , plus keeps water out. (those of us who ride in the h2o). This is also true for ground connections.

                                                 da prez

Ohm's Law, (V=IR) where V=volts, I= current (amperes) and R= resistance (ohms).

Simply stated, for a given voltage, when resistance goes up in a circuit, the current goes down and vice versa.

The statement above, "High resistance causes (sometimes) fuses to blow", seems to break(sometimes) Ohm's Law. I have never have seen Ohm's Law broken in my fairly extensive experience and I'm pretty sure that no one else has either. I can't think of a situation where that would happen.

[Chrisj CMA]

Wow. My brain hurts more than it did before. All I was trying to do was warn you that if your tach and neutral light stops working due to a blown fuse, check yer bulbs in the rear.

[98valk]

http://www.mnbigbirds.com/images/SFM/Jan%2013%20NL/Ohm's%20Law.jpg

[Chrisj CMA]

Ok, it's done. Just got finished greasing up all my bulbs.  Out of 9 bulbs on the two bikes only one had any corrosion to speak of. Buffed it all out with steel wool and greased the barrel not the contacts. 

[Jess from VA]

http://www.mnbigbirds.com/images/SFM/Jan%2013%20NL/Ohm's%20Law.jpg

I don't understand exactly what's going here, but I don't trust Volt at all.

[Chrisj CMA]

http://www.mnbigbirds.com/images/SFM/Jan%2013%20NL/Ohm's%20Law.jpg

I don't understand exactly what's going here, but I don't trust Volt at all.

Ya well I'd rather be volt than amp

[98valk]

http://www.mnbigbirds.com/images/SFM/Jan%2013%20NL/Ohm's%20Law.jpg

I don't understand exactly what's going here, but I don't trust Volt at all.

how did u post that? I tried doing it with photostash and it wouldn't post for me.

[Jess from VA]

How did u post that? I tried doing it with photostash and it wouldn't post for me.

I never post my own pictures, as I will not screw around with one of those photo hosting sites.

But I can post (almost) any picture found on the web by placing cursor in photo, left clicking, selecting View Image Info which opens a new window.  Then find the Location in that window and highlight it, then left click and copy it.  Then go back to your VRCC post, right click the Insert Image box above (the first icon in the second row of controls that has a framed picture in it).  This inserts two [img] [img] brackets in your VRCC post box.  Left click the cursor between these two [img] brackets, and paste the picture you copied in between them.

When you post your VRCC post, the picture you copy/pasted magically appears.

So, I opened your picture link, left clicked the pic and copied it's location and pasted it into a VRCC post.

There may be other ways to do it buts that's how I do it.

You don't need to save a pic found on the web into a web hosting site to post it here, only your own pics which are not on the web already.

Some pictures on the web cannot be copied (and about 700 million pictures on the web should not be copied  ).



  

[98valk]

I saved the pic in photostash and then copied the link and posted it btwn the img brackets. sometimes it works for me sometimes it doesn't.

[Gryphon Rider]

  Corrosion causes high resistance. High resistance causes (sometimes) fuses to blow. Dia-electric grease makes an air tight connection. Air tight eliminates (most times) corrosion. A little dis-electric grease goes a long way. When I redo or install , I use the dia-electric. On spark plugs , easier to install and remove , plus keeps water out. (those of us who ride in the h2o). This is also true for ground connections.

                                                 da prez

Ohm's Law, (V=IR) where V=volts, I= current (amperes) and R= resistance (ohms).

Simply stated, for a given voltage, when resistance goes up in a circuit, the current goes down and vice versa.

The statement above, "High resistance causes (sometimes) fuses to blow", seems to break(sometimes) Ohm's Law. I have never have seen Ohm's Law broken in my fairly extensive experience and I'm pretty sure that no one else has either. I can't think of a situation where that would happen.

All I can figure is that the corrosion that caused high resistance in the lighting circuit also caused a short circuit to ground.

[mbramley]

  Just a note to add to the conversation. I am an electrician, been working with it since the 70's. Ohms law is just that- a law of physics, I have never seen physics change. That being said, what caused the corrosion? If there is salt (live by the ocean, live up north on roads that are salted)  involved in the equation of the corrosion then there may be residual salt in the corroded material which then would cause low resistance hence a blown fuse. Also maybe a loose bulb that vibrated and caused spikes, fuses don't like those either.   

[Chrisj CMA]

  Just a note to add to the conversation. I am an electrician, been working with it since the 70's. Ohms law is just that- a law of physics, I have never seen physics change. That being said, what caused the corrosion? If there is salt (live by the ocean, live up north on roads that are salted)  involved in the equation of the corrosion then there may be residual salt in the corroded material which then would cause low resistance hence a blown fuse. Also maybe a loose bulb that vibrated and caused spikes, fuses don't like those either.   

Since we are in Florida, I think maybe the salt thing is possible, but no matter which law was broken or in effect a blinker or tail light bulb caused a blown fuse and it seems a small bit corrosion was the culprit.  I have heard about this happening but never witnessed it on a motorcycle in 45 years of riding.  None the less I cleaned and lubed all by bulbs.

Thanks youse that are smarter than me in this electrical stuff.  Sometimes its just as important to know what to do than why it works.

[Savago]

Interesting report, would never expect corrosion in bulbs messing up with the whole bike.

[Chrisj CMA]

discouraging update.  Ok so my friend had no brake lights, no blinkers, no tach and no neutral light. It was blowing the 10A rear light and meter fuse.  After checking everything but the bulbs nothing changed.  Once we removed the bulbs and cleaned them and re-installed, all was fixed.  I just found out he made it almost home and the dang fuse blew again and now he cant remedy it by installing new bulbs. 

I told him to carefully inspect all the wires under the rear fender and the connector at the joint of the two fender halves.

The mystery continues for now

[Gryphon Rider]

Here's some info that might help in troubleshooting, ignition switch circuits and fuse circuits for Standards and Tourers:

IG1:  Fuse B (top fuse) - Turn, Stop, Horn
        Fuse D (5th from top) - Starter, Ignition

IG2:  Fuse A (6th from top) - Acc. Term.
        Fuse C (3rd from top) - Headlight
        Fuse F (2nd from top) - Taillight, Meters

[Chrisj CMA]

Here's some info that might help in troubleshooting, ignition switch circuits and fuse circuits for Standards and Tourers:

IG1:  Fuse B (top fuse) - Turn, Stop, Horn
        Fuse D (5th from top) - Starter, Ignition

IG2:  Fuse A (6th from top) - Acc. Term.
        Fuse C (3rd from top) - Headlight
        Fuse F (2nd from top) - Taillight, Meters

It's Fuse F that keeps blowing.  I suspect damage, dirt, or corrosion in the connector at the rear fender joint.

[98valk]

Here's some info that might help in troubleshooting, ignition switch circuits and fuse circuits for Standards and Tourers:

IG1:  Fuse B (top fuse) - Turn, Stop, Horn
        Fuse D (5th from top) - Starter, Ignition

IG2:  Fuse A (6th from top) - Acc. Term.
        Fuse C (3rd from top) - Headlight
        Fuse F (2nd from top) - Taillight, Meters

It's Fuse F that keeps blowing.  I suspect damage, dirt, or corrosion in the connector at the rear fender joint.

good chance wires that run thru the turn signal stalk to the light socket are shorting. wire bundle wraps around the metal frame inside the stalk.

[Chrisj CMA]

Here's some info that might help in troubleshooting, ignition switch circuits and fuse circuits for Standards and Tourers:

IG1:  Fuse B (top fuse) - Turn, Stop, Horn
        Fuse D (5th from top) - Starter, Ignition

IG2:  Fuse A (6th from top) - Acc. Term.
        Fuse C (3rd from top) - Headlight
        Fuse F (2nd from top) - Taillight, Meters

It's Fuse F that keeps blowing.  I suspect damage, dirt, or corrosion in the connector at the rear fender joint.

good chance wires that run thru the turn signal stalk to the light socket are shorting. wire bundle wraps around the metal frame inside the stalk.

Thanks CA, that will be the next thing we check.

[Ricky-D]

I have found that some dual filament bulbs that can be old, or used, or for some other reason have the guide pins on the side of the base "mucked up" and result in the bulb not being properly aligned in the bulb socket. This can happen and the both filament contacts are connected (shorted) to the socket contact causing an overload on the circuit. In simple terms, a bulb can be installed incorrectly, which is possible with a bad bulb base or a deformed bulb socket.

***

[Cracker Jack]

discouraging update.  Ok so my friend had no brake lights, no blinkers, no tach and no neutral light. It was blowing the 10A rear light and meter fuse.  After checking everything but the bulbs nothing changed.  Once we removed the bulbs and cleaned them and re-installed, all was fixed.  I just found out he made it almost home and the dang fuse blew again and now he cant remedy it by installing new bulbs. 

I told him to carefully inspect all the wires under the rear fender and the connector at the joint of the two fender halves.

The mystery continues for now

Seems someone suggested earlier that your fix may not be lasting. This is a quote from Reply #7 above  by Cracker Jack. Probably in bad taste to say "I told you so"

"
I can't say what your problem was but your solution does not follow the science in this case.

Fuses blow because of over current which would not be a result of added resistance in the circuit as you seem to indicate. Typically over current would be a result of decreased internal resistance of the device or a short circuit in the hot side wiring. Any added resistance in the circuit would cause a decrease in current and would not cause a blown fuse.

I believe there is something else going on in your case that you may not be aware of. "

[Chrisj CMA]

discouraging update.  Ok so my friend had no brake lights, no blinkers, no tach and no neutral light. It was blowing the 10A rear light and meter fuse.  After checking everything but the bulbs nothing changed.  Once we removed the bulbs and cleaned them and re-installed, all was fixed.  I just found out he made it almost home and the dang fuse blew again and now he cant remedy it by installing new bulbs. 

I told him to carefully inspect all the wires under the rear fender and the connector at the joint of the two fender halves.

The mystery continues for now

Seems someone suggested earlier that your fix may not be lasting. This is a quote from Reply #7 above  by Cracker Jack. Probably in bad taste to say "I told you so"

"
I can't say what your problem was but your solution does not follow the science in this case.

Fuses blow because of over current which would not be a result of added resistance in the circuit as you seem to indicate. Typically over current would be a result of decreased internal resistance of the device or a short circuit in the hot side wiring. Any added resistance in the circuit would cause a decrease in current and would not cause a blown fuse.

I believe there is something else going on in your case that you may not be aware of. "

You can say "I told you so". At the time of the original post the bike was fixed. Can't fix fixed.  So you were right in your suspicion, I wasn't surprised either as I said I didn't think bulbs could do what was happening.

We shall see

[Avanti]

Interesting, I once had a double filament bulb have the filaments touch on the inside, this can cause difficult to find problems. This is another good reason to check bulb continuity and ohm readings.