Latest Rotella CK-4 testing, not good

[98valk]

latest shows phosphorus below 1000ppm at 969ppm and zinc at 1070ppm.  Not good for engines with rocker arms and camshaft as the GL1500 has. I believe the GL1800 is the same.

P and Z that low has always lead to excessive wear of those parts per many reports over the yrs.

This is the new CK-4 spec mandated.

some are still at 1000ppm and slightly higher.
http://pqiamerica.com/HDEO_Sample_Summary_Dec_2016.html    see tests dated 6/2018

[h13man]

Already tried to use the new formula @ 200 mi. and the tranny was louder shifting. Just didn't feel right. Running Valvoline 10-40 now.

[98valk]

Already tried to use the new formula @ 200 mi. and the tranny was louder shifting. Just didn't feel right. Running Vavoline dino now.

that still has high levels of zinc and phos plus it has a high dose of Boron which is one of the latest anti-wear additives being used in today's oil.
http://pqiadata.org/Valvoline_15W40.html

[98valk]

as of now Ford Motorcraft oil usually avail at walmart is maintaining the highest levels of phos and zinc, keeping to the CJ-4 spec which motorcycle need
http://pqiadata.org/Motorcraft_15W40.html
Labeled: "Meets WSS-M2C171-F1, Cummins CES 20086, Detroit Diesel 93K222, Volvo VDS-4.5 and Mack EOS-4.5." and "CONTAINS MORE THAN 1000 PPM PHOSPHORUS FOR BETTER WEAR PROTECTION"

It’s important to note that Ford Motorcraft did not make the move to API CK-4 due to concerns about wear issues related to the lower phosphorus levels specified in CK-4. In a position statement, Ford said, “Ford will not be recommending the use of CK-4 motor oils in any Ford diesel engines, new or old. Ford testing has shown some CK-4 type formulations have shown inadequate wear protection compared to CJ-4 formulations developed and licensed before 2016. Ford now recommends using oils that meet our OEM specification, Ford Material Engineering Specification WSS-M2C171-F1.”

[Kokomo Kevin]

Damn, not another oil thread..........I use Lucas 20/50 synthetic just a choice I know.......

[Bob D]

I have a 2001 Standard and have read but until now never responded to an oil thread. I use Pro Honda High Performance 20W-50 SJ synthetic blend @ $9.99 a quart; about the same price or cheaper than some of the other oils mentioned during different discussions. Is there a legitimate reason I shouldn’t be using the oil Honda recommends? I don’t quite understand why there are so many different discussions and opinions on oil. The only thing I change is the frequency of my oil changes. Honda’s shop service manual says every 8,000, I change mine every 3,000. If I shouldn’t be using Honda’s oil please let me know.....thank you!

[98valk]

I have a 2001 Standard and have read but until now never responded to an oil thread. I use Pro Honda High Performance 20W-50 SJ synthetic blend @ $9.99 a quart; about the same price or cheaper than some of the other oils mentioned during different discussions. Is there a legitimate reason I shouldn’t be using the oil Honda recommends? I don’t quite understand why there are so many different discussions and opinions on oil. The only thing I change is the frequency of my oil changes. Honda’s shop service manual says every 8,000, I change mine every 3,000. If I shouldn’t be using Honda’s oil please let me know.....thank you!

used oil analysis (UOA) will show u are wasting your time and money changing at 3k miles what the Honda engineers state at 8k miles after they did countless hrs of engines testing to come up with 8k.
20w50 is too thick unless your oil temp is in the 230-240F range all of the time in the desert, running high speed or in mountains pulling grade under load, etc.  UOA over the yrs have show oem oil usually not the best out there.

[Kokomo Kevin]

Bob D, check your owners manual if you have one, you should be ok with 20/50, Do most of my riding during the HOT season here in Indiana. Also used to ride a lot in the western US, glad I had 20/50! Your bike is rated for it.

[Bob D]

Thanks for the replies. I do live in southern Nevada and most of my riding is in 90 degrees + temperatures. My shop manual says 20W-50 is fine for thirty degree weather on up. I rarely ride in 30’s if I can help it. I appreciate the input as always.

[Kokomo Kevin]

Rode through Vegas and at the time it was 102 degrees, Ran into a couple of your finest on Harley's and they were at an intersection waiting for lights to turn and they had their bikes shut off. Asked them why they said it was to keep them from overheating! Was glad I had a watercooled bike with 20/50 in it as well.!

[h13man]

Already tried to use the new formula @ 200 mi. and the tranny was louder shifting. Just didn't feel right. Running Vavoline dino now.

that still has high levels of zinc and phos plus it has a high dose of Boron which is one of the latest anti-wear additives being used in today's oil.
http://pqiadata.org/Valvoline_15W40.html

Vavoline 10-40w four stroke dino.

[Glaserbeam]

I owned a 1975 Triumph Trident for a few years and the mechanic said the best oil for it - since it needed high levels of zinc for the primitive bearings - was Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 fully synthetic.

Per Mobil's chart, zinc = 1750 ppm; phosphorus = 1600

Would that be a good choice for the Valk?

[Kokomo Kevin]

Ask a hundred people get 75 answers, You just need to concentrate on what the main temperature reading is when you do the bulk of your riding. Look at your manual and it will give you temperature zones and viscosity requirements, If you ride in Vegas or Arizona and you ride mostly during hot areas then you need 20/50 either Dino or sythnetic if you ride during times where temperature is closer to 32 degress etc you will want a thinner oil 10/30. The only thing you need to worry about is not using an oil with friction modifiers in it check the rating on the bottle.

[98valk]

I owned a 1975 Triumph Trident for a few years and the mechanic said the best oil for it - since it needed high levels of zinc for the primitive bearings - was Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 fully synthetic.

Per Mobil's chart, zinc = 1750 ppm; phosphorus = 1600

Would that be a good choice for the Valk?

u need a minimum of 1200 ppm of both.  that high can be a problem esp for the zinc it pitts metal. some info here search for more  "somewhere above 1500 ppm zddp can cause pitting of the metals inside your engine, including the bearings."  https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3155862

[Glaserbeam]

Thanks CA ... I guess you CAN have too much of a good thing!

[98valk]

Thanks CA ... I guess you CAN have too much of a good thing!

here are my earlier posts.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,65911.0.html   best thing is diesel oil or was since they changed the spec to CK-4 with meeting the SN and SM auto specs also.  the boboilguy site always has oil analysis being done both virgin and used and the PQ site just virgin oil.  some diesels notably rotella 5w40 have been rated for JASO for yrs. Have they changed for the new CK-4?, I haven't checked.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,96825.0.html

[Mapper]

Rotella T6 no longer good?  What about AMSOIL?  Royal Purple?  Castrol?  HONDA? 

[98valk]

ok found this.
 JASO has lowered their levels of phos and zinc. This is done esp phos to protect the cats on new motorcycles. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4866716/jaso-revises-standard-effective-2016

Our GL1500 engines are spec'd for higher phos and zinc.  Any new spec is supposed to be (another great lie?) to be backward compatible. Ford Motorcraft states the new CK-4 is not good for its engines when also meeting the SN and SM auto specs requiring the lower phos and zinc.

I checked the rotella site, it states their 5w40 and 15w40s, meet JASO.

[Gideon]

So Shell Rotella T6 is still a good oil for our 1520 Valkyries 

[98valk]

So Shell Rotella T6 is still a good oil for our 1520 Valkyries 

only a used oil analysis will let u know. this is due to the new motorcycle JASO spec brings the phos and zinc levels lower than the spec required for our engines. Suppose to be backward compatible, however as Ford has said they see high wear in their engines with the new spec and issued service bulletin not to use the new oils with lower levels.  SM spec lowers the levels for the catalytic converters.

[98valk]

the PQIA chart was updated 9/24.   Rotella, Delvac, and Delo, are all below 1000ppm for phos and zinc. all have higher Boron PPM which is suppose to take the place of P and Z. Of course at a much higher cost. Thank you Fed EPA and calif EPA for higher cost and possibly more wear out of engines. fits right in to force people to buy new vehicles sooner.

[baird4444]

 great....   I've been running the T3 for the last 5 yrs and 45k miles and was
just about to switch over to the T6....  now what??
   any chart geeks have the answer by
   1. the numbers ?
   2. use experience ?

              - Mike

[greggh]

I have been running T6 with no issues

[baird4444]

ok, yes I'm still riding to work in the cold til our first "snow event'. Won't ride after
they've spread the Mag chloride...  left work early last week and it was in the
20's at night. cranked slow and rattled and ticked like an old 63 chevy pickup....
decided I gotta do sumthing different, found a Mobile 1 full synthetic Turbo Diesel truck oil,
5-40w with the CK-4 rating.
spins faster at 30degrees and no ticking on a cold night, all I hear is the belts...
shifts better in town, but haven't hit roadtemp, may not get it there till spring...
anybody have an opinion on this synthetic CK-4 diesel truck oil?
   - Mike

[indybobm]

Makes the Mobil 1 15W-50 look pretty good.

[nogrey]

When I first began reading this thread I thought “oh boy, another oil thread!” But I am impressed with the depth of knowledge on this thread. Best oil thread I’ve ever read!
Thanks guys!

[F6Dave]

After reading an oil discussion on the F6B board I downloaded a spec chart from Mobil 1.  I'd download the chart back in 2016 and saved the PDF, so I decided to compare the phosphorus/zinc levels to see what, if anything, had changed.  Here are the numbers for 3 oils commonly used in motorcycles:

Mobil 1™ V Twin 20W-50:
  1600 PPM phosphorus/1750 PPM zinc (FEB/2016) - 1600 PPM phosphorus/1750 PPM zinc (OCT/2018)
Mobil 1 15W-50 automotive:
  1200 PPM phosphorus/1300 PPM zinc (FEB/2016) - 1200 PPM phosphorus/1300 PPM zinc (OCT/2018)
Mobil 1 Racing™ 4T (10W-40 MC):
  1200 PPM phosphorus/1300 PPM zinc (FEB/2016) - 1000 PPM phosphorus/1200 PPM zinc (OCT/2018)

Apparently the 10W-40 MC oil had the ZDDP content reduced to comply with the new JASO standard.

I've been using Mobil 1 15W-50 auto oil for over 300,000 combined miles in my Valkyries and F6Bs.  That viscosity is a bit on the high side, so I'd been thinking of switching to the 10W-40 MC oil.  After seeing the new specs I will probably stay with the 15W-50.

[98valk]

After reading an oil discussion on the F6B board I downloaded a spec chart from Mobil 1.  I'd download the chart back in 2016 and saved the PDF, so I decided to compare the phosphorus/zinc levels to see what, if anything, had changed.  Here are the numbers for 3 oils commonly used in motorcycles:

Mobil 1™ V Twin 20W-50:
  1600 PPM phosphorus/1750 PPM zinc (FEB/2016) - 1600 PPM phosphorus/1750 PPM zinc (OCT/2018)
Mobil 1 15W-50 automotive:
  1200 PPM phosphorus/1300 PPM zinc (FEB/2016) - 1200 PPM phosphorus/1300 PPM zinc (OCT/2018)
Mobil 1 Racing™ 4T (10W-40 MC):
  1200 PPM phosphorus/1300 PPM zinc (FEB/2016) - 1000 PPM phosphorus/1200 PPM zinc (OCT/2018)

Apparently the 10W-40 MC oil had the ZDDP content reduced to comply with the new JASO standard.

I've been using Mobil 1 15W-50 auto oil for over 300,000 combined miles in my Valkyries and F6Bs.  That viscosity is a bit on the high side, so I'd been thinking of switching to the 10W-40 MC oil.  After seeing the new specs I will probably stay with the 15W-50.

thanks for info. the phos is being lowered due to the so called scare from the epa that it will damage the cats before 100k miles. since so many motorcycles have cats now, reason jaso changed.
lower phos cause lower zinc since they are connected chemically to each other.  boron is to take their place and why high levels are seen. boron is also very $$$ reason motor oil prices have jumped. inflation across all line of vehicles thanks to epa who answers to no one.
a few of the diesel oils are remaining above 1000ppm phos.

[Jess from VA]

I had some cats.  They wouldn't eat any oil at all, regardless of the mix. 

[F6Dave]

I had some cats.  They wouldn't eat any oil at all, regardless of the mix. 

Don't tell the EPA about them. They'll pass another regulation.