Timing Belts and Idlers

[pancho]

I have received the Gates belts and idlers, and getting ready to do the job....  first time. I can read the steps as well as anyone, but am wondering if there are any snags or tips I should be aware of. Like do the cam wheels want to jump when the marks are set and the belts removed? or anything else that may be helpful.

[hubcapsc]

I have received the Gates belts and idlers, and getting ready to do the job....  first time. I can read the steps as well as anyone, but am wondering if there are any snags or tips I should be aware of. Like do the cam wheels want to jump when the marks are set and the belts removed? or anything else that may be helpful.

I "heard" about taking the plugs out to remove the chance of
compression related jumping and ease the task of cycling the
engine by hand... I haven't done the job
either yet though...

-Mike

[sandy]

I've replaced several. They won't jump if you prealign the marks. After you're done, make sure the marks are aligned properly.

[mbramley]

 I did mine last winter. There were no surprises. Aligned the timing marks and double checked them before I put the cover on. Piece of cake.

[0leman]

I replaced my belts early last winter.  It took the sparks out, aligned the marks, replaced the belts, no problem.  Rode some 6k plus since then, not problems.

[Relax]

I have received the Gates belts and idlers, and getting ready to do the job....  first time. I can read the steps as well as anyone, but am wondering if there are any snags or tips I should be aware of. Like do the cam wheels want to jump when the marks are set and the belts removed? or anything else that may be helpful.

I was in your situation  3-4 years back.
Pretty much knowing how to do it, but still wanting to get an extra ensurance about doing it right..
I made extra marks on both some tooth wheels and on the belts same place so if I somehow during "the operation" got confused and insecure , then I could put it all back to starting point.

i didn't need it.
It wasn't that complicated.
Follow the ordinary descripion and instruction you allready have, and you'll be good

[pancho]

Thanks all, I did remove the plugs, good advice for making it easy to turn the motor over. Straight forward job with no valve spring pressure trying to move the cams off mark (that was a concern). I have a good drilling machine, just need to figure out how to clamp the idlers and how to drill the mounts and which bolts to use. Any advice or info on how you did it will be appreciated.

[Chrisj CMA]

Thanks all, I did remove the plugs, good advice for making it easy to turn the motor over. Straight forward job with no valve spring pressure trying to move the cams off mark (that was a concern). I have a good drilling machine, just need to figure out how to clamp the idlers and how to drill the mounts and which bolts to use. Any advice or info on how you did it will be appreciated.

Clamping, drilling, new bolts.    What???

[DGS65]

watch a video and you will be surprised how easy it is!  I think it took about 30 minutes.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Thanks all, I did remove the plugs, good advice for making it easy to turn the motor over. Straight forward job with no valve spring pressure trying to move the cams off mark (that was a concern). I have a good drilling machine, just need to figure out how to clamp the idlers and how to drill the mounts and which bolts to use. Any advice or info on how you did it will be appreciated.

Clamping, drilling, new bolts.    What???

I think he is rebuilding the idler pulleys .

[pancho]

If I can figure the way to remove the old ones from the mounting bracket.

watch a video and you will be surprised how easy it is!  I think it took about 30 minutes.

DGS65,, what video, where is it?

[pancho]

I found this information   http://www.sdb-e.com/TENSIONER/TENSIONER-REBUILD-JCS.pdf   

The           “Editor’s” Choice – Custom Hex Bolt Method       seems to be straightforward. I had actually seen this information about five years ago and forgot about it.

I just need to figure a way to clamp up the tensioners for drilling and gather up the mounting hardware. Like everything else it seems I could have done this work before I started......

[pancho]

Here is the evidence that this job is overdue,, this one has been leaking and slinging grease out of the seal.



and this shows the deteriorated belt being deposited on the idler surface,,



I'm a bit surprised I have never heard of a belt failure.....  I guess it is just a matter of time. I will remove the wheels from the mounts later today.

[nogrey]

Lots of good information here, but the most important thing (didn’t see anyone mention it) is: before you press that starter button, make sure you have rotated the timing shaft (CCW) through 2 complete revolutions (rotated past the “UP” alignment marks twice). If it rotates fine, great, good to go. If it stops anywhere, there is a misalignment. Stop and correct. Had to replace the heads on a friend GW because he failed to manually rotate before hitting the starter button. $$$$$!

[pancho]

OK, will do.

A close examination of the belts showed this in spots,



and directly on the other side, this. It was time!

[John Schmidt]

For some reason I can't see any of the pics. I did find while making the same changes on my GL1200 project the right side cam wanted to turn when released from the belt. I found I could put a box end wrench on the bolt in the sprocket and position that side on the marks, then use a zip tie to the frame to hold it while installing the belts.

[pancho]

Hey John, I don't know why you can't see the pictures, I see them all and assume others do to. I would think that the difference in the cam profiles would explain why your GL1200 wanted to rotate the right cam and the Valkyrie does not..?? Glad to hear you engineered a fix for the problem.

[Bone]

I'm with John yesterday pictures today blank squares. Not one picture.

[pancho]

Here's how I did it, first I drilled the center out with a 1/2 inch bit,



Then cut the bit that was left with a hacksaw



and removed the rest with a cold chisel and punched out the remaining piece, no mess or damage.



Since the back of the mount hole is tapered to accommodate the original  assembly method, I used flat socket head bolts (M10 x 30mm) so they would self center, nylon locknuts and a bit of blue locktite. I torqued the assembly to 30 ft. pounds. I'll assemble things the next time I get a chance. Are the pictures showing up now?



[

[hubcapsc]

Are the pictures showing up now?

I saw the first ones, but not these, and now I don't see the first ones. The URLs you
are posting are some kind of googleusercontent things that might not be suitable
for sharing on social media...

No, wait, I can still see the one with the pulley slinging out grease, but not
the one with the belts that I could see previously... same kind of URLs...

-Mike "ida know..."

[pancho]

Well it seems I'm having problems with the whole Google photos thing Mike.... I can see all the images.

Is it fixed now?

Last of the summer wine

[Bone]

No pictures yet, I see John's bike.

[hubcapsc]

I just made a google photo, and read some posts on some other forums
about how google photos suck/don't-work on forums like ours. I think
google photos is a dead end.

All of my pictures come from "google sites classic", but they're changing that
too, I bet I'll be up the creek soon as well.

Trying to use Google cloud stuff and Amazon cloud stuff is starting to be
like trying to kick a dead whale down the beach. And trying to use the "for pay"
cloud stuff is even worse - a fellow I work with was testing some code there
and an error cost him $800 before he even knew anything was wrong.

-Mike

[LB]

For some reason I can't see any of the pics. I did find while making the same changes on my GL1200 project the right side cam wanted to turn when released from the belt. I found I could put a box end wrench on the bolt in the sprocket and position that side on the marks, then use a zip tie to the frame to hold it while installing the belts.

 


I can't see the pictures either.

[pancho]

I just moved the photos I want to share here into a separate album, made that album public  and recopied the last picture. Anything? it's funny that I see the pictures on all my devices including my phone.


like trying to kick a dead whale down the beach.

    ...not much future in that...!

[hubcapsc]

I just moved the photos I want to share here into a separate album, made that album public  and recopied the last picture. Anything? it's funny that I see the pictures on all my devices including my phone.

The cat picture is the only one I see, but cat pictures always work on the Internet.

If you moved the photos without editing your other posts and replacing the
URLs, maybe that's what you need to do?

I think the reason you can see them on your phone is that you are logged onto
google as you when you are using your phone...

-Mike

[pancho]

Yeah, the cat photo is the only one I recopied from the new public album. I will get a cup of coffee and redo the others.  Thanks


OK, hopefully the pictures are showing up now and I learned a new trick........  computers.. gotta love them.

Well it's 25 degrees outside, first freeze of the year, but the sun is up in a completely clear sky.  I think I'll finish the bike up today when I can get a bit of heat in the shop.

[Bone]

I've got them now, thanks.

[pancho]

Good deal Bone, glad I was able to find the information to solve the problem,,, this topic was useless without the pictures.

[LB]

Good deal Bone, glad I was able to find the information to solve the problem,,, this topic was useless without the pictures.

 

All pictures good now, thanks.

[pancho]

While assembling, I noticed that if your not careful, you could tighten the bolts for the ignition sensors without them being in place, they have a positive stop when located correctly.



everything went together smoothly by the manuals instructions, no snags. You would need to be high or otherwise fouled to make a mistake as all the timing marks are clearly visible .,,, looks better than what I saw when I removed the cover.



Bike is running right,



I appreciate all the advice and encouragement...... After seeing the condition of my belts and wheels, I would recommend pulling the cover for an inspection at least. Of course I could not see the leaking bearing until the idler was removed, but a close examination would have turned up the deterioration of the belts and spots of rubber on the wheels is easy to see,, they surely cannot take any oil contamination as stated.

[John Schmidt]

OK, for the record I can see all the pics now. Yep, that belt looks like it was about to be expensive. Years ago an old Wing mechanic, when asked, said "the belts are guaranteed for the life of the engine." I asked "really?" "Yup, you break a belt....that's the life of your engine."  Never forgot that, at the moment mine are approaching 50k but they're 20 yrs. old so soon as I can navigate a little better physically, they're coming out. Re. the rebuilt tensioners, I used the same method to remove the old and the same bolts when installing the new, went with hi-strength on the bolts, blue loktite & 30lbs. torque with a lock washer. Glad to hear all's well, yours look good in there. 

[pancho]

"Yup, you break a belt....that's the life of your engine."  Never forgot that, at the moment mine are approaching 50k but they're 20 yrs. old so soon as I can navigate a little better physically, they're coming out.

Yeah,, let that be a lesson to me, after seeing the condition of the belts I need to keep in mind the age of these machines. When it looks and runs so good you forget!

Just start in on the project slowly John, by the time you are done you might find "I can navigate a little better physically,"

Re. the rebuilt tensioners, I used the same method to remove the old and the same bolts when installing the new

Well, I've always heard that great minds think alike!

[saddlesore]

"Yup, you break a belt....that's the life of your engine."  Never forgot that, at the moment mine are approaching 50k but they're 20 yrs. old so soon as I can navigate a little better physically, they're coming out.

Yeah,, let that be a lesson to me, after seeing the condition of the belts I need to keep in mind the age of these machines. When it looks and runs so good you forget!

Just start in on the project slowly John, by the time you are done you might find "I can navigate a little better physically,"

Re. the rebuilt tensioners, I used the same method to remove the old and the same bolts when installing the new

Well, I've always heard that great minds think alike!

 I had a belt break in August.   I always heard it was the end also.  I pulled the head, (left side) and found bent valve stems.   I orders new valve stems and idler pulleys..  Had the valves ground by pros.   I put it together and took my time.  I pulled the plugs to make it easier to turn over.  With the plugs out I could check that the #1 cylinder was at top dead center.
Because I had one broke belt I had to make sure that both sides were in sync and all the marks lined up.  I turned the engine over by hand just for peace of mind.   I used gates belts (cheaper)   I missed why you drilled the idler pulleys.   The new belts make a bit of noise for a while.   I hope your bike keeps running good.   Sorry for getting on the post late.
                                                   

[John Schmidt]

"Yup, you break a belt....that's the life of your engine."  Never forgot that, at the moment mine are approaching 50k but they're 20 yrs. old so soon as I can navigate a little better physically, they're coming out.

Yeah,, let that be a lesson to me, after seeing the condition of the belts I need to keep in mind the age of these machines. When it looks and runs so good you forget!

Just start in on the project slowly John, by the time you are done you might find "I can navigate a little better physically,"

Re. the rebuilt tensioners, I used the same method to remove the old and the same bolts when installing the new

Well, I've always heard that great minds think alike!

See my other posts on the General board, think I've got a gall bladder going bad, pain is almost equal to a kidney stone. Going to see the dr. this week.

[pancho]

think I've got a gall bladder going bad, pain is almost equal to a kidney stone. Going to see the dr. this week.

Sorry to hear that John,, I know those gall bladder attacks are the kind of thing that has you laying on the cold bathroom floor with your head in the toilet, wishing you would just die if the pain isn't relieved, pulled into a tight ball as the pain is only an eleven instead of a twelve if you keep pressure on one spot, constantly trying to puke but nothing coming up, thinking nothing could hurt so bad unless you were severely damaged....... Hopefully the doctor has another option for you other than just removing the organ,, they are important for our overall well being. I'm praying for you brother.


 I had a belt break in August.   I always heard it was the end also.  I pulled the head, (left side) and found bent valve stems.   I orders new valve stems and idler pulleys..  Had the valves ground by pros.   I put it together and took my time.  I pulled the plugs to make it easier to turn over.  With the plugs out I could check that the #1 cylinder was at top dead center.
Because I had one broke belt I had to make sure that both sides were in sync and all the marks lined up.  I turned the engine over by hand just for peace of mind.   I used gates belts (cheaper)   I missed why you drilled the idler pulleys.  The new belts make a bit of noise for a while.   I hope your bike keeps running good.   Sorry for getting on the post late.
                                                  
[/quote]

Wow, that's the first broken belt I have heard about saddlesore, guess it does happen. That "idler drilling" is about removing the old idler wheels from the mounts and replacing just the idler wheels with a Gates part,, much less expensive than buying original Honda assemblies. I think some Goldwing guys came up with this years ago, and it works for the Valkyries also. Glad to hear you worked your way through the broken belt.

[RWhitehouse]

Think it's time I just go ahead and get this out of the way. When I first got my '98 it had about 35k on it. I pulled the cover for a cursory inspection- didn't see any cracking or dry rot in the belts at bends, and the general consensus on around here was to just follow Honda's recommendation they're good for 100k. They were almost certainly original belts. Despite failures being exceptionally rare so far, I have a hard time believing that 20+ years has no effect.  I didn't remove the idlers or check if the bearings had started to leak grease although I wouldn't be surprised if they are. The bike is now at 42k, and just did a 2500 mile trip, most of the time ~ 4000rpm.

For $70 shipped to swap the belts and rebuild the idlers, might as well just do it. Call it peace of mind if nothing else.  I run the bike fast and take it a long way from home, and really have done essentially everything else to ensure this bike is as reliable as it can be.  Coupled with the excellent guides here about swapping the belts and rebuilding the idlers, the only reason "not" to is that I might be throwing out 20 year old parts that potentially could have lasted another couple years. Oh well, I'm really not too bothered over that.

For reference on pricing the T275 belts and T42015 idlers

local NAPA
belts- $30ea
idlers- $22ea (both had to be special ordered, 3 day lead time)

Amazon
belts- $16ea
idlers- $20ea (both on prime if you have it)

Rock Auto
Belts- $13ea
idlers- $15ea
Plus shipping-varies, for me it was $14 for 2-3 day delivery

Honda OE (varies a bit, but these were the general going rates I found online- the local dealer wanted about 20% more)
belts- ~$50ea
idler assemblies- ~$80ea

So the savings to rebuild the idlers vs replace is pretty considerable- over $100 for the pair. Definitely worth it for the mild effort of drilling out a pin and replacing it with a bolt. As the guide mentions the idlers are fitment for late model Kia cars, so future availability should be strong should the Honda part become obsolete.