Randomly Dies - Ignition?

[athomas915]

Good morning, Valk riders,

I've had a lingering problem for the last few weeks and I've finally started to pick up on the symptoms.

Background info - '99 GL1500CF 107k miles, lived in NC so minimal rust/harsh winters, starts fine, idles fine, runs fine - until it dies. Cannot find any consistency to when it dies.

What I've checked/noted - not just a bad tank of gas, consistent across multiple tanks. Occurs across all temperature ranges (50 degrees to 80 degrees F). Choke cable is working properly and will correctly shut off. I believe it's running slightly rich due to the smell, but I don't expect that to be the problem because it runs fine until it randomly dies.

What's wrong - I'll ride around my neighborhood for roughly 3 minutes under 30 MPH and it'll randomly die. I'm talking full power, running strong with no backfires, immediately to cut off. It will also do this after a 45 minute ride at 55 MPH. Not even a sputter, just like I flicked the kill switch or the key, which is what I'm leaning towards.

I'm inclined to check the petcock because I know it's the original, but I'm leaning more towards the ignition because it cuts off so suddenly and inconsistently.

If anyone has had similar symptoms and/or leads, it's greatly appreciated.

I'll be checking for leaks and tracing wires in the meantime.

[WintrSol]

An abrupt cut off says electrical to me. Have you checked/cleaned the run/stop switch? While it is running, tap next to the switch, and listen for a stumble. Same with the ignition switch; just tap on the key. A loose fuse in its housing could also be an issue, not to mention a fuse with a cracked element. If all the fuses are well seated, refer to a wiring diagram, and swap or replace any that can cause loss of ignition. From here, it gets harder, as you have to locate and clean, then reconnect the connectors.

[Bighead]

Do you have a bunch of keys or weighted things on your key ring?

[sandy]

I agree with checking/cleaning the start button(shop talk). Look for battery connections and ground to block connection.

[gordonv]

Your bike randomly dies, then restarts, or stay dead????

I had this happen twice on my 1st bike, never on the next 2 IS I owned. Like you said, driving along, then like you turned the kill switch on/off, and nothing again. Dry weather. No reason for it, and no way to replicate it.

If you do a search, if you can find the right term, you'll find old posts on this. No one has yet figured out what it is that does this.

I suspect the main wire harness connector. But mine was giving problem only when wet.

[Murrgh]

I had the exact same issue, turned out that my Bank Angle Sensor was loose and would kill it.

[athomas915]

I've checked the start/stop switch and cleaned it.

I'll check fuses again, they've been adjusted many times since I've bought it to check for breaks.

I don't have a ton of heavy keys on the key ring but I didn't think of that. I started the bike and tugged on the key, hit the ignition, and no stumble.

Previously, the bike would die and stay dead, enough that a hit of the starter button wouldn't restart it. I would have to cycle the key in the ignition to off, back on, and then it would sometimes start.
Yesterday's ride would just be a hiccup; cruising at 60 mph and down to zero then immediately back up to ~3k since I was still in gear when it died.

I'll check the bank angle sensor.

Thanks gang, stay tuned.

[Ricky-D]

Although a rare occurrence, ICM's (Ignition control module) have been known to go bad. Many have reported the occasional burp of the ignition for no apparent reason.

That is what I would tend to think is your problem. A poorly performing ICM.

I think you can pick one up fairly cheap from Pinwall.

***

[athomas915]

Checked the bank angle sensor, and confirmed it was tight.

ICM sounds like a strong possibility.

Stay tuned for a short test ride in a few.

*Just started it to warm up before the test ride, and the ignition is ticking like mad until it starts up.

[Wayn-O]

Perhaps a poor ground?  Try running a secondary jumper wire from the neg (-) of the battery to the frame. 

[knockdolian]

Do you by any chance have an in line fuel filter. Will it die then start up straight away or do you need to wait a bit ?

[Moonshot_1]

My thoughts.

I'd be looking at things that are supposed to stop the motor. Kill switch, bank angle sensor, (these you did, I know, and as was posted earlier by some one, jiggle these things and see if it dies) Also look at the kickstand switch. That will stop the engine.

When it dies are you in motion? Are you hitting minor bumps?

If nothing obvious reveals itself, then on to the other stuff.

[gordonv]

Instant death doesn't sound like a fuel delivery issue, that would be sputtering with the loss of fuel.

Has to be electrical. I think this might be the 1st one who says it goes off and stays off, most have just been a burp and back running again, as the engine was still in gear cruising down the road.

[WintrSol]

Instant death doesn't sound like a fuel delivery issue, that would be sputtering with the loss of fuel.

Has to be electrical. I think this might be the 1st one who says it goes off and stays off, most have just been a burp and back running again, as the engine was still in gear cruising down the road.

I think it is electrical. Quitting, then having to cycle the ignition switch, is a bank angle sensor symptom; quitting, then restarting without cycling the switch is likely something else electrical, like a contact not locked into the connector shell, a poor crimp, cracked wire, or one of the other suggestions above. I really hate looking for problems like this.

[gordonv]

I really hate looking for problems like this.

Nothing like looking for an intermittent problem. Give me one that is constant, at lease you can track it down.

Put it sounds like it happens repeatedly. A better chance of finding it.

If you have a local buddy with the same bike, then you could swap parts and see if it follows them.

Dying and needing to cycle the ignition switch, sounds like a tilt sensor.

[baldo]

I vote for a bad ignition switch. You could bypass the switch with a couple of jumpers and ride it around for a bit to see if the problem goes away.

[Paladin528]

When it dies do you lose EVERYTHING (lights dash etc)?  if so look at your start relay under the right side cover.  Mine melted and killed the whole bike.  that was a one time deal though.  All of the power to the bike goes through that relay.

[Dale_K]

I've had a similar thing on a different bike that turned out to be the side stand switch.  You could jumper it out for a while and see it the problem persists.

[SPOFF]

When it dies do you lose EVERYTHING (lights dash etc)?  if so look at your start relay under the right side cover.  Mine melted and killed the whole bike.  that was a one time deal though.  All of the power to the bike goes through that relay.

+1 on this often overlooked main power fuse. I also had to replace the relay and power connector and the fuse that came on the replacement was questionable. I still have the same problem except it happens maybe one a year. Looks like there's a few more things to check.

[athomas915]

Just got back from a trip, did a few tests.

When the bike died, all the lights stayed on.

Unscrewed the bank angle sensor, started the bike, and shook the poop out of it while it was still upright. Held steady and only died when I tilted it or started a side-to-side rocking motion, which I expected. Plus, the last two times it's died, it's been upright with no turns for awhile.

In the process of testing the side stand switch and I'll get the bank angle sensor professionally tested if the side stand switch doesn't show any obvious issues.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Post test ride

Ah man, it's one step forward and two steps back.

Kickstand sensor was plugged in and fine.

Short ride around the block, maybe 5 minutes, no more than 30 mph.

Died after the 5th turn. Same direction and turning speed as the first 4 turns. I thought it was the bank angle sensor, but there are more symptoms now.

After it died, lights stayed on, I hit the starter and it fired right back up. Stopped, I put it in 1st, died. Restarted. Stopped, put it in 1st, took off, up to ~25 mph, died. Kicked it down a gear, let the clutch out, bike comes back to life. Died. Repeat downshift and clutch release, back alive. It's clearly pissed. At this point, I'm just trying to make it home and my condo is in sight.

When it died, RPM range between 2-3.2k

Then, it backfires - I mean gunshot backfires, not just a few little crackles from my old two cylinder Virago 750. Very upset 6 cylinder 1500.

Rode about 3 minutes home with the same speeds and same turns with no issues.

I've had bikes that ran rich before, and this Valk smells slightly rich, but not enough to throw as much of a fit and die like this is. It starts easy, choke works effectively. Runs and idles well with the choke off once it's warmed up. I understand this is a tuning issue that needs to be addressed and I will but I'm also not sure if the electrical short/issue is ruled out entirely.

Back to the drawing board.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Just got back from a trip, did a few tests.

When the bike died, all the lights stayed on.

Unscrewed the bank angle sensor, started the bike, and shook the poop out of it while it was still upright. Held steady and only died when I tilted it or started a side-to-side rocking motion, which I expected. Plus, the last two times it's died, it's been upright with no turns for awhile.

In the process of testing the side stand switch and I'll get the bank angle sensor professionally tested if the side stand switch doesn't show any obvious issues.

_______________________________________________________________________________
Post test ride

Ah man, it's one step forward and two steps back.

Kickstand sensor was plugged in and fine.

Short ride around the block, maybe 5 minutes, no more than 30 mph.

Died after the 5th turn. Same direction and turning speed as the first 4 turns. I thought it was the bank angle sensor, but there are more symptoms now.

After it died, lights stayed on, I hit the starter and it fired right back up. Stopped, I put it in 1st, died. Restarted. Stopped, put it in 1st, took off, up to ~25 mph, died. Kicked it down a gear, let the clutch out, bike comes back to life. Died. Repeat downshift and clutch release, back alive. It's clearly pissed. At this point, I'm just trying to make it home and my condo is in sight.

When it died, RPM range between 2-3.2k

Then, it backfires - I mean gunshot backfires, not just a few little crackles from my old two cylinder Virago 750. Very upset 6 cylinder 1500.

Rode about 3 minutes home with the same speeds and same turns with no issues.

I've had bikes that ran rich before, and this Valk smells slightly rich, but not enough to throw as much of a fit and die like this is. It starts easy, choke works effectively. Runs and idles well with the choke off once it's warmed up. I understand this is a tuning issue that needs to be addressed and I will but I'm also not sure if the electrical short/issue is ruled out entirely.

Back to the drawing board.

Even if it is running rich, I don't think that is related to your problem. If I accidentally hit my kill switch while riding, it will backfire like you are talking about. I definitely think you have an electrical issue. Kill switch, sidestand switch would be the most likely culprits in my opinion.

[Jersey]

The backfire on your last test ride is likely unrelated.  That's just the excess fuel in the exhaust being ignited.

Agree with the others.  This is electrical and likely part of the circuitry that
1. is designed to kill the engine, or
2. is part of the ignition system and is failing.  (e.g. ICM)

Electrical is a PIA.  Trick is to not assume ANYTHING.  Check and verify every nuance part of the circuitry.  Test and verify.  For Instance... jump the kickstand module, jump the bank angle sensor, etc as many as you can find.  Then if the test ride is good, you add each one back one-at-a-time and re-test.

If it helps, my girl was intermittent and I found it was the ICM.  The manuals will tell you how to test the ICM.  Got one from Pinwell and all is well.

Really appreciate the updates. Very curious what you find.

[gordonv]

You can't test for an intermittent problem that wont stay around long enough to diagnostic it.

Is there someone around you can swap parts with?

I would be willing to swap simple parts, like tilt, side stand, and the like. Would do no harm to either bike.


I've got one for you, how is your clutch handle pivot & switch? Just thinking. But this wouldn't cause the bike to die unless it had the stand down.

[Moonshot_1]

this just sounds like a bad kickstand switch or a problem with the kickstand triggering the switch. I would find a way to bypass the switch, and see if that doesn't correct things. Then do the same with the bank sensor if the attention to the kickstand doesn't pan out. I know the ks switch is plugged in and seems fine but if the kickstand spring is faulty or the stand is loose, even a little bit, could it be triggering the switch?

Good luck and thanks for keeping everyone posted.

[pancho]

Like a couple of others have said, pull the right side cover. The module in the middle is the start relay, pull it straight out (it is held in by a rubber boot) and remove the red cap by pushing on the tabs and pulling up. Inspect the connector for a burnt and intermittent connection,, it is your main power feed and can do what you are describing.

[JimBob]

My guess would be electrical....common to all cylinders.....tip-over switch or loose connection somewhere along the line in the ignition circuit, again something common to all the cylinders. sounds like a good place to start.
If it will cut off, then STAY 'dead', THEN you can troubleshoot it!

Good luck, and let us know what you find.

[MnM Valk 97]

I just changed my bank angle sensor. It died sitting in a box while the center cover was off all summer. Still had fluid. I busted it open to see how it works - still a bit of a mystery to me. Not what I expected inside, despite a few YouTube videos.
Anyway, I saved the wire harness, and twisted the two appropriate wires together to make it function as a test plug. By rights maybe it should have a resistor to drop the "live" signal voltage, but it would work for a little troubleshooting ride around the neighborhood. Let me know if you want to borrow it.

[athomas915]

Update:

Back from a trip, dug into the bike. Finally got a Clymer manual so that made the bank angle sensor test and side stand switch test easy.

Both of those systems check out.

I'll dig into the ignition system today and see what I can or can't find. While I'm in there, I'll check the main ground.

I'll check the main relay, thanks, Pancho.

If all else fails, I'll bypass the bank angle sensor and side stand switch, but we'll see if I can't figure out the problem before then.

Thanks for the help!!

[pancho]

Good luck

[athomas915]

Flew a few more trips, went home for a bit, and now back to the bike.

What I'm looking for clearly isn't working, so I came up with a different thought process.

The bike will die when it's idling, as with riding, but now I'm not riding it as not to  confuse the symptoms. I've started it up, let it run, and let it die, all right there on the kickstand in the driveway. Here's what I've noticed - other than the vibration from idling, which I believe is minimal, the bike isn't moving when it dies. I hit the starter again and it fires right up. I'm coming back to the ignition idea now, could a bad ICM allow the bike to run beautifully and then cut off? Rare, yes, but not impossible? Main ground is solid, every wire I've traced has checked out.

Happy New Year! Ride safe and may your Valks treat you well.

[Ricky-D]

Sounds like you are in denial.

https://pinwallcycle.com/advanced_search_result.php?__Secure-osCsid=365098b7b78ee06898ee78aa57ec54d3&keywords=valkyrie+ignition

***

[athomas915]

Sounds like you are in denial.

Exhausted would be the right word.

Denial, not anymore. I spent way too much time concerned with other issues that weren't directly related to the issue. I'm ordering one today.

Thanks for the link!

[pancho]

Have you looked at the connections on the starter relay?

[sdv003]

Check all your grounds and your battery connections.  This sounds like a problem I had and it was solved by cleaning the electrical connections, grounds and battery connections.

[SPOFF]

I'm beginning to think this random dying is just something old Valkyries do. My Valk does it about once a year and "fixes" itself before it even coast to a stop. That makes it imposssible to begin to debug it. I just can't leave the right lane on the interstate. Don't trust it.

And If the ignition switch is bad, I'm not sure a used set makes any sense. It also will be a few years (or weeks) from failing as well.

[Willow]

I'm beginning to think this random dying is just something old Valkyries do. ...

That would be an incorrect assessment as there are many thousands of them that don't.

[pancho]

I'm beginning to think this random dying is just something old Valkyries do. My Valk does it about once a year and "fixes" itself before it even coast to a stop. That makes it imposssible to begin to debug it. I just can't leave the right lane on the interstate. Don't trust it.

And If the ignition switch is bad, I'm not sure a used set makes any sense. It also will be a few years (or weeks) from failing as well.

You just need to pull the connector off the start relay and fix the burnt connection you  may find also. "random dying" means an intermittent electrical connection, an often over looked likely place is the relay connector,,, most don't find it until it completely burns up . Fix it now and don't get left on the side of the road,,,,,   it will happen.  It doesn't make sense to ride a bike you can't trust.

[athomas915]

Pancho - connector is not burnt.

New ICM did not fix the problem. Back to the drawing board.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Pancho - connector is not burnt.

New ICM did not fix the problem. Back to the drawing board.

Check all your grounds and your battery connections.  This sounds like a problem I had and it was solved by cleaning the electrical connections, grounds and battery connections.

I would listen to Sam's advice. He chased his problem for quite some time.

[pancho]

Pancho - connector is not burnt.

New ICM did not fix the problem. Back to the drawing board.

All the power for everything, comes from the battery, to the starter relay, through the 30amp main fuse setting on top of the starter relay, and although supplied on two lugs on the starter relay, it is only picked up by one terminal in the plug on the starter relay,, the one with the red wire. If you are confident there is no evidence of a loose connection (discoloration of the lug), on the starter relay plug or 30 amp fuse, I would start the bike on the stand or lift and shake, move, rap with a rubber mallet,  the wiring harnesses and everything along the line of current flow from the battery to the ignition circuit,, looking for the bike to cut off. You will find it. Do you have a copy of the service manual with the wiring diagram?