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Robert
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« on: January 25, 2019, 11:04:02 PM » |
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Its a simple question, one that most would answer yes to. Even one that we were told as children always go to the police and he will help you. I know many fine officers and would never think this is on them. This establishment of case law is a great argument for citizens to be armed and NOT to give up our second amendment rights. If we do we are as lambs to the slaughter under these rulings. We are truly redefining our society, and its the courts and those that are moving further and further away from the Constitution that are changing it. We are moving away from the moral ground that this country was established on also. This latest decision adds to a growing body of case law establishing that government agencies, including police agencies, have NO DUTY to provide protection to citizens in general. A federal judge in the law suit brought against the Broward school district and the Broward Sheriffs Office for the school shooting in Parkland. The ruling stated, that the government agencies, " had no constitutional duty to protect students who were not in custody." “Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.” The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed out. In custody is narrowly confined to situations where a person loses his or her freedom to move freely and seek assistance on their own — such as prisons, jails, or mental institutions.” The US Supreme Court has made it clear that law enforcement agencies are not required to provide protection to the citizens who are forced to pay the police for their "services." In the cases DeShaney vs. Winnebago and Town of Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect the lives and property of others — even when a threat is apparent. Police agencies we are told deserve the tax money and obedience of local citizens because these agencies "keep us safe." While many do, if it comes to a court battle for lack of protection, you will be found with NO grounds to stand on. https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-ne-douglas-survivor-lawsuit-federal-judge-20181217-story.htmlIf you carry this decision to its logical conclusion the Police are there to enforce the protection for the government at our expense. There is a social contract, even a moral one that Police protect the average Joe but in reality in court if this social contract fails there is little the average Joe can do. This also in light of Ferguson clears up some misgivings from some, including myself that said how could Police be told to stand down and not be responsible for the results. |
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« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 11:38:11 PM by Robert »
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“Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that.”
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Pete
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2019, 03:54:22 AM » |
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No one has a duty (is legally required) to protect anyone.
We may (and should) assume a moral, responsible, family, social, civic duty to protect.
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2019, 04:37:19 AM » |
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Why then do most police have on their vehicles “To protect and serve” ?
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signart
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2019, 04:52:56 AM » |
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Why then do most police have on their vehicles “To protect and serve” ?
That's easy, they could just put "Free Room & Board". A nice way of saying "Three hots and a cot." You will be protected from the weather and served 3 meals a day, that's all you are guaranteed. |
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2019, 04:57:15 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY to protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED!  |
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« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 07:59:34 AM by Chrisj CMA »
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DirtyDan
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2019, 05:01:00 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED!  I won’t leave home without them....... like 2 or 3 plus whatever is in the trunk Dan |
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Do it while you can. I did.... it my way
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F6Dave
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2019, 05:17:26 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! When seconds count, the police are just minutes away... |
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2019, 06:30:19 AM » |
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But, distinguish from these court decisions (no generalized duty to protect) (which BTW goes a long way toward getting rid of lawsuits where lawyers and clients are trying to redistribute large amounts of taxpayer wealth/money from the local police, county or State budget to their own pockets)..... that police departments everywhere have internal rules and regulations that provide a pretty clear Code of Conduct of the expected behavior of it's officers. A Code that if violated can result in punishment, demotion, retraining or termination of employment.
This particular tort suit, named everybody possibly at fault, including the school district, the whole PD, and a couple officers (6 defendants), in the age old method of maximizing any possible payout (and stimulating any possible settlement, with or without insurance coverage).
Officer Peterson (the official school officer) was named, and is the one who stood outside listening to rifle fire inside, and IMHO exhibited cowardice in the face of the enemy (from the inapplicable UCMJ). And to hell with policy about securing the perimeter with a rifleman actively executing children.
Note the lawsuit was not against him alone, simply because he alone would not have enough money to make the lawsuit worth prosecuting on a contingent fee basis (which it very likely was).
And he quit before he could be fired.
All governments (and subdivisions) have always been pretty good at insulating themselves from generalized civil liability (and where it is allowed, it is generally allowed right in a particular statute). This may seem unfair in any given case (with bad facts like this one), but is generally a good thing to protect taxpayer money from greedy plaintiff's lawyers (and their handpicked clients).
Believe me that however many crazed gunmen set on committing mass murder that exist, there are proportionally tens of thousands more plaintiff's lawyers willing to sue anyone and everyone possible for personal financial gain.
It also appears that the plaintiff's in this case were basing their case on a Constitutional duty, which IMHO was a mistake. The law in that field is pretty well settled, and as a result this case was dismissed by pretrial motion before it ever got to trial or a jury.
You may not like the result in this particular case, but keep in mind that any multi-million dollar payouts from government agencies will certainly be met with proportional increases in taxation, and that the losses will always be passed right along to us taxpayers.
All that said, the Broward County PD earned itself some well deserved very bad press, and owes it's citizenry a higher (and more professional) standard of care than it showed in this case.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 06:55:41 AM by Jess from VA »
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RP#62
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2019, 06:32:58 AM » |
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During the Miami riots in the 80's a friend of mine called the police and told them there were gangs of thugs roaming the streets in front of his house and he was afraid they may try to break into his house. The police response was, " We're at capacity. You're on you're own." I never forgot that. That's pretty much what it boils down to.
-RP
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phideux
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2019, 07:22:49 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture?  |
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old2soon
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2019, 07:44:14 AM » |
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I've stated this before and it do bear repeating. A retired Police Chief and our current Chief have told me the same basic thing-IF they are at the Police Station or on patrol they could be as much as 8 or 10 minutes out And I reside in a small town. Here in Missouri open carry is legal-I do NOT open carry-and I do in Fact possess a C C W for my State. What they are saying in an oblique way is that Until the L E Os show up it's pretty much up to me and my "devices". That old adage-never a Cop around When ya NEED one will Most Always be true. Just be prepared to Defend you and yours as needed. RIDE SAFE.
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Today is the tommorow you worried about yesterday. If at first you don't succeed screw it-save it for nite check. 1964 1968 U S Navy. Two cruises off Nam.
VRCCDS0240 2012 GL1800 Gold Wing Motor Trike conversion
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DirtyDan
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2019, 08:03:09 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Sleep like a baby with one under the pillow They don’t go off by themselves....(REVOLVERS) Dan |
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Do it while you can. I did.... it my way
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2019, 08:10:46 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Sleep like a baby with one under the pillow They don’t go off by themselves....(REVOLVERS) Dan They don’t go off by themselves. I don’t know how Jeff took this pic. Maybe a selfie. But I would never stand on front and take a pic like that, even if the chamber is not fully pushed in. It makes me skittish just to look at the pic. |
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2019, 08:36:26 AM » |
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You mean the cylinder? It's designed to make you skittish. It looks like a small family could camp in that barrel.  |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2019, 08:38:03 AM » |
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You mean the cylinder? It's designed to make you skittish. It looks like a small family could camp in that barrel. Yes, I couldn’t think of the term. |
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DirtyDan
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2019, 08:56:26 AM » |
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I give Massad Ayoob a Dan |
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Do it while you can. I did.... it my way
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Black Pearl's Captain
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2019, 10:44:40 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Sleep like a baby with one under the pillow They don’t go off by themselves....(REVOLVERS) Dan They don’t go off by themselves. I don’t know how Jeff took this pic. Maybe a selfie. But I would never stand on front and take a pic like that, even if the chamber is not fully pushed in. It makes me skittish just to look at the pic. Man up, at most if fired you would lose an ear. It's not pointed right at the camera. On another subject, Is there a snowflake emoji for this board? |
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MarkT
Member
Posts: 5196
VRCC #437 "Form follows Function"
Colorado Front Range - elevation 2.005 km
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2019, 11:39:23 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Sleep like a baby with one under the pillow They don’t go off by themselves....(REVOLVERS) Dan They don’t go off by themselves. I don’t know how Jeff took this pic. Maybe a selfie. But I would never stand on front and take a pic like that, even if the chamber is not fully pushed in. It makes me skittish just to look at the pic. Man up, at most if fired you would lose an ear. It's not pointed right at the camera. On another subject, Is there a snowflake emoji for this board? Wouldn't bother me to make that photo, though I wouldn't let the barrel sweep my head. Assuming I trust the gun holder. Just general safety. He doesn't have his finger on the trigger near as I can see. (And he shouldn't by the 4 safety rules of gun handling). Also it could be staged with no round under the hammer or even the next chamber as that's a S&W 500mag which rotates the cylinder clockwise looking from this perp's view. However I don't want to be anywhere near the loud end when it goes off. The 500mag produces HUGE muzzle blast which will for sure blow out your eardrums and probably other damage from the blast never mind the bullet. It's scary enough from the safe end with full power loads. |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2019, 11:39:24 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Sleep like a baby with one under the pillow They don’t go off by themselves....(REVOLVERS) Dan They don’t go off by themselves. I don’t know how Jeff took this pic. Maybe a selfie. But I would never stand on front and take a pic like that, even if the chamber is not fully pushed in. It makes me skittish just to look at the pic. Man up, at most if fired you would lose an ear. It's not pointed right at the camera. On another subject, Is there a snowflake emoji for this board? I put a high value on my ears. |
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2019, 01:03:50 PM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Sleep like a baby with one under the pillow They don’t go off by themselves....(REVOLVERS) Dan They don’t go off by themselves. I don’t know how Jeff took this pic. Maybe a selfie. But I would never stand on front and take a pic like that, even if the chamber is not fully pushed in. It makes me skittish just to look at the pic. I took that picture with my other hand. Can you see there is no fingertip sticking out of the trigger guard, that's because there's no fingertip on the trigger. Me holding gun in right hand, camera in left. |
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bagelboy
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2019, 02:30:22 PM » |
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That's the sad thing, meathead. Most people that wish to take away guns have had no training nor ever even held a handgun. Understanding how they work and becoming familiar with a gun is the best way to learn about them. And I do strive the fact that going to classes, practicing, and becoming educated is very important.
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1997 Valkyrie Tourer, 2005 GL 1800, 1987 GL 1200 Aspencade.
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2019, 02:35:13 PM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Sleep like a baby with one under the pillow They don’t go off by themselves....(REVOLVERS) Dan They don’t go off by themselves. I don’t know how Jeff took this pic. Maybe a selfie. But I would never stand on front and take a pic like that, even if the chamber is not fully pushed in. It makes me skittish just to look at the pic. I took that picture with my other hand. Can you see there is no fingertip sticking out of the trigger guard, that's because there's no fingertip on the trigger. Me holding gun in right hand, camera in left. that's what I figured. |
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Pete
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2019, 03:36:39 PM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Leaping to conclusions is a bad idea, assuming is also. 3 mistakes in one sentence, man you are really reaching. |
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Bighead
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2019, 04:06:57 PM » |
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We have a local LEO who shot and killed (a white man) about 6 months ago. Cleared by an internal investigation and was within the county/cities polices for a justified shooting. Yet he is in jail because he was indicted. The City is providing him with $150,000 worth of legal funds and the mayor says he is backing him 100%. I am glad to to see my city standing with the LEO’s in a situation such as this.
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1997 Bumble Bee
1999 Interstate (sold)
2016 Wing
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Willow
Administrator
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Posts: 16644
Excessive comfort breeds weakness. PttP
Olathe, KS
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2019, 06:08:20 PM » |
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I took that picture with my other hand. Can you see there is no fingertip sticking out of the trigger guard, that's because there's no fingertip on the trigger. Me holding gun in right hand, camera in left.
What!!!? You risked the safety of your camera and left hand? How careless!  |
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Gavin_Sons
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Posts: 7109
VRCC# 32796
columbus indiana
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2019, 06:48:37 PM » |
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I took that picture with my other hand. Can you see there is no fingertip sticking out of the trigger guard, that's because there's no fingertip on the trigger. Me holding gun in right hand, camera in left.
What!!!? You risked the safety of your camera and left hand? How careless! He has already proved his hand can withstand a gunshot wound. I see no risk. |
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DirtyDan
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2019, 08:30:02 PM » |
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I like Paul Harrell also FWIW Dan |
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Do it while you can. I did.... it my way
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2019, 05:13:00 AM » |
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I took that picture with my other hand. Can you see there is no fingertip sticking out of the trigger guard, that's because there's no fingertip on the trigger. Me holding gun in right hand, camera in left.
What!!!? You risked the safety of your camera and left hand? How careless! Lol. I couldn’t help notice you put concern for my camera ahead of my left hand. Just think of the risk of concealed carry. .357 tucked in the belt.  |
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« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 05:16:14 AM by Chrisj CMA »
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phideux
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« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2019, 06:35:41 AM » |
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They only have a DUTY tp protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! How safe do you feel having that friend point a loaded gun in your face as you take his picture? Leaping to conclusions is a bad idea, assuming is also. 3 mistakes in one sentence, man you are really reaching. Man, I'm not leaping, assuming or reaching, didn't you see this guy, , at the end of my post. I figured it was a gun selfie. I am 100% pro gun, worked at a gunshop/range as my part time job for 18 years, was an NRA instructor and a CWP instructor for several years. I would even own a gun or 2 myself except I seem to keep losing them in boating accidents. |
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Black Pearl's Captain
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2019, 04:02:25 PM » |
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They only have a DUTY to protect a property or a person assigned to them to protect. Thats why I have several friends like this one that help keep me and my family PROTECTED! Just wanted to see the big gun again so hitting the thread again. Has this gun gone off yet? It is safe for me to lean to the left a bit yet? I was so inspired by "the big gun" I took my own Ruger super blackhawk 44 magnum (as big as I got (shrugs shoulders)) out and shot 40 rounds of the good ones into some tough paper. shot up a 100 of 9 mil and even shot some 32 through my pocket gun.... |
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2019, 04:34:29 PM » |
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Good job. I would be done for the day after 40 of these. Did 30 once and saved the other ten for another day
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Bighead
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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2019, 05:48:26 PM » |
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Good on you BlackPearl. I try to waste some lead about 2-3 times a month. And never got to the range or my outdoor spot without 3-400 rounds. Usually spend 100-150 .45acp and a couple hunert 9mm and a hunert .380.  |
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1997 Bumble Bee
1999 Interstate (sold)
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Robert
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2019, 03:18:06 AM » |
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Noting like the sound of a 44 mag in echoing in the range after a shot |
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“Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that.”
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2019, 04:34:14 AM » |
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Noting like the sound of a 44 mag in echoing in the range after a shot Except maybe a 50 mag |
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Romeo
Member
Posts: 1612
J.A.B.O.A.
Romeo, Michigan
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2019, 05:41:15 AM » |
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Why then do most police have on their vehicles “To protect and serve” ?
because it’s their goal todoso, not theirs legal duty. Seems kinda obvious to me. |
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The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2019, 06:06:41 AM » |
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Why then do most police have on their vehicles “To protect and serve” ?
because it’s their goal todoso, not theirs legal duty. Seems kinda obvious to me. Kind of an old thread, but here goes. I guess it comes down to one’s use of the word “duty”. In this OP’s question, I would think of it not as a legal term. Per Webster : the binding or obligatory force of something that is morally or legally right; moral or legal obligation. an action or task required by a person's position or occupation; function: the duties of a clergyman. the respectful and obedient conduct due a parent, superior, elder, etc. an act or expression of respect. a task or chore that a person is expected to perform: It's your duty to do the dishes. |
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2019, 06:29:42 AM » |
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I think most police forces expect their people to do their duty to the public to the best of their abilities (from the academy on up). They can and will be disciplined if they are seen as falling short (after a full internal review with some sort of due process).
I think the Courts say they don't have a duty to protect you (individually) to head off a bazillion lawsuits that the plaintiff's bar would bring every time they could. And, many states have specifically precluded such claims, barring lawsuits against State or local officials for failure to protect, by enacting statutes.
If they set out to do their duty actively, but do so negligently to your harm, those lawsuits can be brought all day.
Thus, the 2d Amendment.
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