Help with final drive parts?

[lucasmp]

I took my new-to-me '99 Tourer to get the rear spline inspected and lubed after seeing the recommendations on the forum. When I picked it up my mechanic told me that I should consider replacing one of final drive oil seals as he could see it was starting to leak. He's a "bring the parts and I'll put them on" kinda guy.

Problem is, I'm not sure which part it is. Does anyone know the specific part number, or dimensions? I couldn't find the specific part on Partzilla or Bike Bandit but may have not just been in the right place. The specific oil seal is highlighted in this picture, which is a diagram from page 12-14 of the service manual: (https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv3l48msdpu456c/Final%20Drive%20Oil%20Seal?dl=0)

Also, when the guy was taking things apart the bolts were pretty tight and took some serious work to loosen, which made the heads somewhat stripped / rounded. I've highlighted the three bolts in question in this picture. Any idea what specific parts / types of bolts these are? (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ysskgfgvtmj83y7/Final%20Drive%20Bolts?dl=0)

Thanks for the insight!

[Chrisj CMA]

You have a not so hot mechanic. One of those “bolts “ is the head of the a the axle. No excuse for buggering that up. I d be wanting a new axle from that shop. Messing up the other two is completely amateur. I would not be s happy camper. 

[..]

Get a new axle from them and RUN AWAY.

[lucasmp]

Yeah, I reached a similar conclusion. What's done is done, but we'll see what I can do to remedy.

Anyone with insight on the oil seal and/or bolt parts? Thanks!

[RainMaker]

There's a lot of Valkyrie pilots here in the DFW area who perform their own service and if you'll post to the Texas board, you'll find one of us willing to assist and guide you for the self maintenance aspect of the bike.  Stripping of the bolts sounds like cheap tools or SAE tools being used on the parts.  The Axle bolt uses a hex on one end and again, the wrong tool had to be used in order to cause a stripping - the correct tool would probably break before it stripped the head.

The seal indicated in the diagram - never have replaced it.  What was he doing digging into that pumpkin?

Did he replace the 3 O-rings?  What did he use on the pinion gear?  The splines?  

Lots of questions.

RainMaker

[Bagger John - #3785]

One question:

What is the so-called "mechanic's" primary brand he services?

Looks to me like someone is used to wrenching on Harleys their whole life and doesn't understand how a shaft final drive is put together - or how to properly service such a construct.

Chris's comments about the wrong-sized/improper (SAE) tools being used lend credence to this.

[lucasmp]

There's a lot of Valkyrie pilots here in the DFW area who perform their own service and if you'll post to the Texas board, you'll find one of us willing to assist and guide you for the self maintenance aspect of the bike.  Stripping of the bolts sounds like cheap tools or SAE tools being used on the parts.  The Axle bolt uses a hex on one end and again, the wrong tool had to be used in order to cause a stripping - the correct tool would probably break before it stripped the head.

The seal indicated in the diagram - never have replaced it.  What was he doing digging into that pumpkin?

Did he replace the 3 O-rings?  What did he use on the pinion gear?  The splines?  

Lots of questions.

RainMaker

He's an independent mechanic; did some work on my previous GoldWing that I was happy with; claims to have worked on plenty of Honda's. Water under the bridge at this point I'm afraid.

I took it in for a brake and clutch fluid flush which he successfully performed, and also asked him to inspect and lube the rear splines. It was from doing that part of the job that he told me he noticed the oil seal looking like it was leaking.

[Chrisj CMA]

If it’s the big oil seal that fits around the drive splines you can change that yourself. Well once you obtain the capability to r/r the rear wheel yourself it’s really not that hard once you learn it

[lucasmp]

If it’s the big oil seal that fits around the drive splines you can change that yourself. Well once you obtain the capability to r/r the rear wheel yourself it’s really not that hard once you learn it

I believe that's it, the specific seal is circled in this picture: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv3l48msdpu456c/Final%20Drive%20Oil%20Seal.jpg?dl=0. Any idea which oil seal that is if I'm shopping for it online?

[Savago]

Run away from them, before they do more damage to your bike!
 

[9Ball]

Buy a Honda service manual and start doing minor maintenance yourself.  There’s no reason to take your bike in for any Valkyrie fluid changes.  You won’t find an easier bike to work on if you follow the service manual and have a decent, basic set of metric tools.  You also have a top-rate support group here for any questions.  Be sure to ask before getting yourself into trouble.  There are some rookie mistakes that can be avoided.

You need a new axel.

BTW, the rearmost fill cover in your picture has torque spec of 9 lbf*ft and the bottom-most drain bolt is 14 lbf*ft.  If your mechanic has trouble removing these he’s an incompetent person to work on your Valkyrie, sorry but it’s the truth.

[Bagger John - #3785]

BTW, the rearmost fill cover in your picture has torque spec of 9 lbf*ft and the bottom-most drain bolt is 14 lbf*ft.  If your mechanic has trouble removing these he’s an incompetent person to work on your Valkyrie, sorry but it’s the truth.

Unless the final drive unit has never been serviced and the parts were corroded into the housing I'd agree with these observations. The fill-hole plug was used for a lot of similar applications (final drives on various models, tappet inspection covers on a bunch more) and any that I've run across which have seized into their mating parts can almost always be freed undamaged by used of a snug-fitting 6pt socket and a breaker bar. Rarely did I ever have to use heat or penetrating oil on them, and the lion's share of those were in corroded valve covers.

[Jess from VA]

I'm no machinist, but couldn't that rounded out allen head axle be machined out to a larger size?

I see in this parts fish, that #2 rear axle is not available (well that's not good).  And it was $45.  

https://www.procaliber.com/oem-parts?aribrand=HOM&arian=MOTORCYCLE#/Honda_Powersports/GL1500CFA_(99)_VALKYRIE_INTERSTATE%2c_USA%2c_VIN%23_1HFSC410-XA000001/REAR_WHEEL/GL1500CF-99-A/14MBYXE1AMBY4F1500B/y

[Chrisj CMA]

I'm no machinist, but couldn't that rounded out allen head axle be machined out to a larger size?

I see in this parts fish, that #2 rear axle is not available (well that's not good).  And it was $45.  

https://www.procaliber.com/oem-parts?aribrand=HOM&arian=MOTORCYCLE#/Honda_Powersports/GL1500CFA_(99)_VALKYRIE_INTERSTATE%2c_USA%2c_VIN%23_1HFSC410-XA000001/REAR_WHEEL/GL1500CF-99-A/14MBYXE1AMBY4F1500B/y

That’s besides the point. No excuse it’s damaged. The shop should buy new all three. No question!

[gordonv]

I expect by now you've figured out that the one bolt is the rear wheel axle. The one that uses a allen key. The other 2 are the oil fill (top) and drain bolts/plugs. I haven't actually removed mine yet, but I think one uses a crush washer and the other an o-ring. They only need to be tight enough to stop oil from leaking.

As for the oil seal. I think the person has mistaken the grease leaking oil out of it, as being oil from the rear drive. If the seal is leaking, then after drying the rear drive, inspect it after a nice ride for additional oil leaking. Less? Dry and repeat. Just as much or more, then maybe I'm wrong, but as already mentioned, I don't think anyone has reported replacing it, outside of a rear drive hub spline rebuild.

Buy a Honda service manual and start doing minor maintenance yourself.

Get the PDF from Norway, then buy a hard copy to go along with it.
http://valkyrienorway.com/download.html

[Valkorado]

This guy?

[lucasmp]

I'm no machinist, but couldn't that rounded out allen head axle be machined out to a larger size?

I see in this parts fish, that #2 rear axle is not available (well that's not good).  And it was $45.  

https://www.procaliber.com/oem-parts?aribrand=HOM&arian=MOTORCYCLE#/Honda_Powersports/GL1500CFA_(99)_VALKYRIE_INTERSTATE%2c_USA%2c_VIN%23_1HFSC410-XA000001/REAR_WHEEL/GL1500CF-99-A/14MBYXE1AMBY4F1500B/y

Thanks for that info! I found the part on eBay, and looks like used ones in decent condition go for $10-$20.

[lucasmp]

Buy a Honda service manual and start doing minor maintenance yourself.  There’s no reason to take your bike in for any Valkyrie fluid changes.  You won’t find an easier bike to work on if you follow the service manual and have a decent, basic set of metric tools.  You also have a top-rate support group here for any questions.  Be sure to ask before getting yourself into trouble.  There are some rookie mistakes that can be avoided.

You need a new axel.

BTW, the rearmost fill cover in your picture has torque spec of 9 lbf*ft and the bottom-most drain bolt is 14 lbf*ft.  If your mechanic has trouble removing these he’s an incompetent person to work on your Valkyrie, sorry but it’s the truth.

I'm excited to increase my handiness! I do fluid changes myself, but have never pulled a rear wheel (don't have a lift or the adapter) so that's why I took it to the mechanic. I've learned a ton from this forum already, and appreciate the help!

[lucasmp]

Still searching for the replacement oil seal noted in this picture from page 12-14 of the service manual:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv3l48msdpu456c/Final%20Drive%20Oil%20Seal.jpg?dl=0)

I'm would love to follow the advice above to do some test riding and see if leak persists. BUT, as of a couple of days ago the rear tire is flat (when it rains it pours), so I'm thinking I will need to replace it, and may as well combine all the potential work (oil seal, axle, new RT) into one job. Would love to find the seal if I can. Thanks for any insight!

[lucasmp]

Update: mystery solved! The parts diagram in the service manual was reversed from diagrams on Partzilla, etc. so it wasn't initially obvious to me what the right oil seal was. But I figured it out.

If anyone is curious or for future reference, it's part #91265-MY3-003.

Many thanks for the input!

[Valkpilot]

Update: mystery solved! The parts diagram in the service manual was reversed from diagrams on Partzilla, etc. so it wasn't initially obvious to me what the right oil seal was. But I figured it out.

If anyone is curious or for future reference, it's part #91265-MY3-003.

Many thanks for the input!

When you replace it, you do not push it in all the way.  It should sit no deeper than flush with the housing and can even be a 1/16 or so above flush. 

If you push it in too far, it will leak.  Counter-intuitive, but true.

[9Ball]

Quick question.  Why are you looking for this part, 91265-MY3-003.

This oil seal is not needed for routine maintenance, only if you are tearing apart the final drive for a rebuild, not normally needed.

You need the three o rings, thrust washer, 14mm drain bolt aluminum crush washer, and since you stated problem with removing the gear oil fill cap you might want to replace the cap oring since it has been crushed in place.  If you are removing the final drive for pinion cup and drive shaft inspection and maintenance go to Honda service manual p. 12-18 and 12-19.  If you are inspecting, cleaning and lubing the final drive splines following rear wheel removal see p. 14-6 to 14-9.  If you are replacing final drive gear oil, go to p. 3-14.

Not sure why you’re in section 12 of the manual.

If your mechanic did not remove the rear wheel, replace the three o rings, and moly lube the drive splines then he didn’t do proper maintenance.

Please update exact work you had done.  If the rear wheel was removed any mechanic would have known the Allen headed part belonged to the rear axle.

[Chrisj CMA]

If it’s leaking you replace it. Not unheard of albeit rare

[9Ball]

If it’s leaking you replace it. Not unheard of albeit rare

Yes, I understand.  It just didn’t make sense that the mechanic was that deep into the final drive knowing that he thought the axle was a bolt head.

Hopefully the OP updates and lets us know what the final fix was. Hope his oil seal fixes everything.

[RainMaker]

This sounds like a good excuse for a wrench party.  We haven't had one in years.

[lucasmp]

Quick question.  Why are you looking for this part, 91265-MY3-003.

This oil seal is not needed for routine maintenance, only if you are tearing apart the final drive for a rebuild, not normally needed.

You need the three o rings, thrust washer, 14mm drain bolt aluminum crush washer, and since you stated problem with removing the gear oil fill cap you might want to replace the cap oring since it has been crushed in place.  If you are removing the final drive for pinion cup and drive shaft inspection and maintenance go to Honda service manual p. 12-18 and 12-19.  If you are inspecting, cleaning and lubing the final drive splines following rear wheel removal see p. 14-6 to 14-9.  If you are replacing final drive gear oil, go to p. 3-14.

Not sure why you’re in section 12 of the manual.

If your mechanic did not remove the rear wheel, replace the three o rings, and moly lube the drive splines then he didn’t do proper maintenance.

Please update exact work you had done.  If the rear wheel was removed any mechanic would have known the Allen headed part belonged to the rear axle.

Thanks for the input! I went to page 12 in the service manual because that's where I found the diagram where the oil seal was specified. There is a little box saying "new" and pointing to the oil seal in the diagram, which I take to mean the manual recommends replacing when servicing. After the mech told me he saw the oil seal leaking when he was in there lubing the splines, I asked him which one and he pointed me to that page the service manual.

The reason I took it in was to lube the drive splines, which is why he took apart the rear assembly. I should have thought to bring in the o-rings to replace as well, but didn't. I've ordered them and will have them installed the next time the rear wheel is off...

...which will be soon, since I got a nail in the rear tire on my ride home from the shop! So i've got the o-rings on order, as well as the oil seal, and a new RT. I also picked up a used axle on eBay to replace the one with the partially stripped hex fitting. So the rear end will get a fresh service soon.

I talked to the mech about the axle and the other bolts being messed up, and he assured me that he had all the correct metric tools and that they were like that already. Frankly I didn't closely inspect their condition beforehand, so I can't say for sure. But knowing the history of the bike (it was stolen, partially parted out, and rebuilt in 2002), I wouldn't be surprised if it's been handled roughly in the past. Thankfully I got such a screaming deal on it that I don't mind paying a bit more for some of this initial maintenance!

If anyone in DFW has a lift and the know-how to service and would like to have a wrench party, I'd love to be a part of that and learn! But such things are above my knowledge and garage equipment right now, so my only alternative is a mechanic.

[rug_burn]

Being your own mechanic takes a lot of tools, that's for sure.     
How long have you had this bike?   I ask because there are the other set of rear drive splines that need maintenance- the propellor shaft-to-pinion cup splines, needing a good lube at every tire change, at least.  And then there is the order in which you tighten up the whole thing which will ensure the drive-to-wheel splines don't wear out. 

[9Ball]

Great update...sounds like all is well.  Sorry for slamming your buddy...my bad.  Seems his time around the gold wings has done some good.  Recommend that you make sure the thrust washer is there too as this can become a problem if it isn’t.  The three o rings should be replaced each time...seems like that is your plan.  Don’t forget the drive shaft/pinion cup lubrication maintenance and new drive shaft oil seal.

Buying a used bike can be troublesome if you don’t know the maintenance history.  Seems like the previous owner didn’t do you any favors.

Be sure to check the starter relay and clean the contacts and add dielectric grease on the connector.  This can become a big problem with melted wires and relay.

One final tip...buy a set of JIS screwdrivers from Amazon...these aren’t Phillips head screws on the Valkyrie.

Any other help is always here...good luck.

[lucasmp]

I appreciate it! I will add the starter relay inspection / cleaning to my list. I got a JIS screwdriver and the 3 o-rings, so I'm close to being set. The mech did lube the shaft / pinion cup, but I unfortunately did not think about all the various seals at the time like I should have.

To make sure I'm getting the right drive shaft oil seal, is that part 91262-MY3-003 (#31 on the Partzilla "Final Driven Gear" diagram)? I will have him install that when I do the tire and the various other rings and seals.

Thanks for all the advice!

[9Ball]

The oil seal on the drive shaft is found in the suspension/swingarm parts list.  This oil seal fits on the u-joint end and serves at least one purpose to keep water out of the drive shaft area.  Any water inleakage due to u-joint boot deterioration can cause rusting of the pinion cup/drive shaft splines and ultimately failure.

Part number 16.

https://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/detail/honda/91261-me9-005/b730403?m=151390&sch=613678

If you notice severe rusting in the pinion cup you might want to inspect or replace the u-joint boot.

[lucasmp]

Thank you!!

[RainMaker]

I've done this before so could assist.  May I suggest you post to the Texas Forum and let's see if we can get a group together to really go over this bike.  Disco is really good at this and has rehabbed other bikes and ValkPilot is very experienced.

As for me, I can do the rear end work, have spare parts (like a thrust washer) and change out my own tires.  So PM me and we'll talk.

RainMaker

[mello dude]

Quick question on the axle. Looking at Partzilla, it's available for a 2003, but not for a 1999. Are the two different?

[Jess from VA]

Probably, but these questions can (almost) always be answered by taking the time to go to on-line Valkyrie parts fishes and looking up and comparing the part number for the axle (or whatever) on both years in question to see if they are the same, or different.

I believe there are some cases where Honda improved the part or changed it in a minor way over the years, so the part number changed, but it still fits.  And over time, sometimes the earlier part (number) was later discontinued as being replaced by the later one.  But this is the exception rather than the rule.

The early years' two-part rear end rubber dampers and inserts were later replaced by single integrated parts, and later the two part dampers were discontinued, for instance.  But either parts fit all bikes. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Quick question on the axle. Looking at Partzilla, it's available for a 2003, but not for a 1999. Are the two different?

I’m pretty sure the rear axles are the same for all years.

[Valkpilot]

Quick question on the axle. Looking at Partzilla, it's available for a 2003, but not for a 1999. Are the two different?

I’m pretty sure the rear axles are the same for all years.

+1

[mello dude]

I really just posted this for the benefit of our new friend Lucasmp....

[nogrey]

When I bought my first Valkyrie about 11 years ago, other than having mechanical skills, I knew nothing about them. I’ve spent many hours scouring these threads learning the things that are important to do yourself. Since then I honestly have had so many valkyries in my shop for maintenance and repair that I can not begin to count them all. One thing that has been made clear through all of that. I don’t trust anybody else (unless they are well known) to do my maintenance. Replacing a final drive on a bike with 30K miles on it because the dealer that changed the tire ignored the necessary maintenance is crazy. Plus the added benefit to me is nevery worrying if it’s been done correctly.
Scary thread this one!