Blowers and coils

[MarkT]

I heard somewhere blowers are abusive and can damage coils.  Anyone have knowledge on this?  George has a very weak spark.  Very hard to start.  Weakest spark I've ever seen on a gas engine. I've measured the volts, power to the primary side of the coils, and the volts from the signal generators, with a peak voltage adapter and quality meter.  Both well above specs.  On the former, 165-170v when spec is >100v, latter 4.5 & 4.9v when spec is >0.7v.  This bike has been blown since the beginning, now at 34k miles.  With plenty of juice in both places, new plugs, stock wires in new condition, if the coils are good there should be a hot spark.  Yet they are barely visible, have to put on good readers and turn the lights down. I think the coils are toast.

BTW wet compression test, all around 180#.  The bike has a Dyna3000.  Lately, but has always been hard to start when cold.  Since I got it anyway.

George is the red bobber show bike below - originally built by George Jackson, who died of colon cancer in 2003.  Here's the bike back in the day, when he still owned it.  Later I was asked to build the pipes for it by it's then owner, Chuck Schafer. 

[WintrSol]

The higher the pressure, the higher the Voltage required to jump a gap; basic physics.

Given time, heat, and the higher Voltages required, it is possible for the insulation between the windings in the coil to degrade, resulting in a lower high tension Voltage. Heat and time are the primary things that cause degradation; once it starts, Voltage may exceed the limits of the degraded insulation, and speed up the process. All this is theory, so grain of salt time. Do you have a way to measure the high tension Voltage, comparing your used coils to a new one? If, however, you can compare new to old, and find a significant difference, theory may become data.

[MarkT]

Thanks for the comments.  I don't have equipment to directly measure the secondary voltage.  Or have an idea to do it indirectly.  But it's clearly low as the spark is feeble on all plugs.  And again, the 2 related inputs to the coils are way above spec - the coils should take those inputs and make them into a good spark accordingly.  Not other links in the chain, I'm thinkin. I didn't think this was likely in the diagnostics before, as there are 3 coils and they would all have to fail for this to be it - lookin for a simple, single failure. But the single failure point is eliminated now.  Also, a commonality is they were all subjected to the same stress - pushing against high compression.  Though it's a mild boost of 6-8#.  I might just take a look at how hot the spark looks on Jade.  Though I'm familiar with the look of a good spark, might want to refresh a view of that on a good running Valk.  After I finish a customer order I'll pull the coils off my parts bike and install them on George and be gratified the spark should be way improved.  That's a low mileage bike, 16k.  Crossin my fingers...

[WintrSol]

One more issue is the fact that the coils fire two plugs at a time; assuming both plugs are in good condition, weak spark comes back to failing coils, but all 6 at once? When you look at the spark, do you have both plugs fired by one coil out? I forget - did you replace the high tension wires to the plugs?

One more thought: try measuring the resistance (Ohms) between either high tension output to the metal mounting of the coils. Be sure not to touch the probe tips with your fingers, as you are expecting near infinite (open), just as you would get with the leads touching nothing. Again, all 6 failing this should be unlikely, unless you got a bad batch.

[MarkT]

Plugs are new.  Brand new never used.  Gapped per spec.   I did not suspect the coils at first as there are three of them and I will first suspect a single point of failure. Like I said, plug wires are Hondaline and appear new.  Testing spark with all plugs out.  There is no impedence in the plug wires.  "Metal mounting of the coils" - you mean the ground or case of the coils?  Are you suspecting a leak to ground inside the coils?  Not sure that would show up on an ohmmeter as there is SOME spark - a jump through bad insulation via an arc path to ground inside due to high voltage shouldn't appear without the high voltage.

[indybobm]

Coils are grounded through the ICM to Pin #14. have you tried a different ICM? Have you checked the ground at pin #14 through splice SP39?

Are you positive that you are getting full voltage at the + side of the coils when cranking the engine?

https://web.archive.org/web/20160401053854/http://rattlebars.com/valkfaq/schematics/rpage06.html

[MarkT]

I tested the grounds, no impedence from pin 14 to ground.  The Dyna3000 was just installed, I said in first post, "lately" and was hard to start before - meaning with the OEM ICM which has the same result - very weak spark. I said above the primary side of the coils is testing with peak voltage adapter at 165-170v when spec is >100.  Signal from the generators is also way above spec, given above.  Again, the spark is so weak it's almost invisible - need good readers on and dim light to see it.  Thanks for the comment.

[Gryphon Rider]

I fail to understand how what is going on at the spark plug can cause more or less wear and tear at the coil.  I would think resistance to spark at the spark plug would reduce wear and tear at the coil because current isn't allowed to flow.  Speaking as someone with no experience fiddling with coils or superchargers.

[MarkT]

If replacing the coils makes the spark robust - and I think it will - I'd like to find some performance coils made to survive the hostile environment of pushing a good spark against the resistance of very high compression - and compatible with the Valk.  The same coils are used for several bikes.  Gotta be some HP ones out there...

This forum has discussions on the topic.  Looking for more...   https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091215182857AAEeaEk

[turtle254]

Take a known good plug wire and use to check spark against weak spark, I'm thinking it hast to be bad wires. Quick and easy to do.

[indybobm]

I realize that you have checked voltages and resistance but try this. Take a jumper wire and connect the positive post of the battery directly to the coils. Then crank the engine and look at the spark. The reason that I am suggesting this is that 1500 Goldwing owners have had a problem with not getting the full (or close to it) +12vdc to the coils due to many connectors dropping the voltage between the battery and the coils. Some have added a relay that connects the battery voltage to the coils when the ignition switch is on bypassing the connector losses.
Worth a try.
.

[98valk]

If replacing the coils makes the spark robust - and I think it will - I'd like to find some performance coils made to survive the hostile environment of pushing a good spark against the resistance of very high compression - and compatible with the Valk.  The same coils are used for several bikes.  Gotta be some HP ones out there...

This forum has discussions on the topic.  Looking for more...   https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091215182857AAEeaEk

The honda blackbird , VTX coils are hotter coils, lower cold ohm rating then the Valkyrie coils.  for under the tank a bracket needs to be made to install the two since they are larger. the side frame one fits no problem. colder temps and the ohm rating it too much for the dyna ignition and why I removed them.  for a higher output coil for the dyna theirs is the only way.

[WintrSol]

I tested the grounds, no impedence from pin 14 to ground.  The Dyna3000 was just installed, I said in first post, "lately" and was hard to start before - meaning with the OEM ICM which has the same result - very weak spark. I said above the primary side of the coils is testing with peak voltage adapter at 165-170v when spec is >100.  Signal from the generators is also way above spec, given above.  Again, the spark is so weak it's almost invisible - need good readers on and dim light to see it.  Thanks for the comment.

The ICM is grounded through the harness at pin #14; that is the source applied to each coil when the coil is 'charged', ie. what points do in a conventional ignition when closed (at dwell). The ICM side of the coil should pulse to near ground during the dwell time, then jump to over 100V; you need an oscilloscope to confirm this. The battery side of the coils should be near battery Voltage throughout, but may drop a Volt or so during the dwell, depending on how much resistance/impedance is in the wiring between the coils and battery. If the Voltage drops too low during coil charging, you have the problem mentioned as occurring in the 'Wing.

The coils are bolted to the chassis via the metal bar that passes through them; if there is a high resistance leak from the high Voltage through degraded insulation to this bar, you will get a lot less at the plugs. If the spark at one plug is hotter then the other, the internal arcing is closer to the weaker side. I'm sure you know you need to ground the shells of both plugs when testing the spark at either.

@Gryphon Ryder: the strength of the insulation in a coil can degrade over time with high temperatures, reducing the ability to prevent leaks at high Voltages. Since the spark plug requires a higher Voltage because of the higher pressures, the Voltage in the coils is higher and, if the insulation is beginning to weaken, the added stress if higher Voltage can cause a breakdown. Head degradation is not uncommon in engines with points ignition, because if the key is left on while the engine is not running, the coil gets hot from the inside, sometimes enough to fail. CB450s from the 60s and 70s often have problems with coils going bad from this cause. While I'm pretty sure Honda installed coils that can deal with the heat stress, the added Voltage stress *could* exceed the design; not really likely, but if they had a bad run of coils ...

[Jeepster09]

Blower will have NO IMPACT on coil life. Time and weather have more impact.

[WintrSol]

Blower will have NO IMPACT on coil life. Time and weather have more impact.

Basically true; it is only when a coil is nearing the end of its life that the extra pressure can contribute. Unless, of course, the coils were weak to begin with.

[Gryphon Rider]

Since the spark plug requires a higher Voltage because of the higher pressures, the Voltage in the coils is higher...

This part doesn't make sense.  I can understand the extra heat produced by a more powerful engine causing insulation breakdown, but just because more voltage is required in a particular situation, more voltage will not automatically be produced.  Unless there is some special circuitry going on in ignition coils that I am unaware of, like any coil transformer, voltage is purely a function of incoming voltage, the number of turns on the primary and secondary coils, and the speed of the switching.  None of these is impacted by increasing or decreasing the resistance of the load, in this case, the spark plug's spark, i.e., a spark that is weak for whatever reason isn't going to affect the coil's secondary voltage.

[Itinifni]

Any increase in resistance (in the secondary wires, larger plug gap, higher cylinder pressure, etc.) will increase the peak voltage and shorten duration of the spark. Of course that's within the limitations of a specific coil and assuming the primary voltage is stable.

[MarkT]

The honda blackbird , VTX coils are hotter coils, lower cold ohm rating then the Valkyrie coils.  for under the tank a bracket needs to be made to install the two since they are larger. the side frame one fits no problem. colder temps and the ohm rating it too much for the dyna ignition and why I removed them.  for a higher output coil for the dyna theirs is the only way.

Did you install VTX coils on a Dyna3000 equipped Valk?  Looks like the 30510-MCC-003 has dual spark plug leads. What's the difference between that and the (TEC) coil # 30510-MM8-003? Where did you find comparative specs including those for the Valk coils?  Any forums that talk about this?

This forum discusses the comparison between the P/N's.  Looks like there's really no difference.  https://www.hondashadow.net/threads/coil-compatibility.570236/

[WintrSol]

Since the spark plug requires a higher Voltage because of the higher pressures, the Voltage in the coils is higher...

This part doesn't make sense.  I can understand the extra heat produced by a more powerful engine causing insulation breakdown, but just because more voltage is required in a particular situation, more voltage will not automatically be produced.  Unless there is some special circuitry going on in ignition coils that I am unaware of, like any coil transformer, voltage is purely a function of incoming voltage, the number of turns on the primary and secondary coils, and the speed of the switching.  None of these is impacted by increasing or decreasing the resistance of the load, in this case, the spark plug's spark, i.e., a spark that is weak for whatever reason isn't going to affect the coil's secondary voltage.

If you're up for it, I can explain how coils/transformers work, but I think that is more than a forum can stand.

[da prez]

Mark , banging the grey matter. Coil resistance testing between primary and secondary inside the coil. It's been a lot of years since I ever had to do it.
 Ohms breakdown test. You are probably beyond that tho.

           da prez

[MarkT]

Turns out VTX and other bikes that use the P/N's above have dual spark plugs, so two dual coils make sense. For now I'm going to go ahead and suspect bad coils.  Per my philosophy professor Dr Wayne Johnson in "Explaining Things" class, failure from a complex design is more likely than a simple one (high tension leads).  See Wayne, that class wasn't a complete waste.  The coils are the most complex link in the chain remaining, that can cause a weak spark. Also, if the D3000 needs a stronger spark, then upgrade to stronger coils is a no brainer anyway.  I ordered 3 30510-MM8-003 coils at https://www.ebay.com/itm/391735328785  No they are not Hondaline but they have a strong guarantee and return policy and $113 total is way better than $225.  "Ultra High Output Spark" - Coilspec is the brand.  Made in Poland - beats China in my book.

[98valk]

The honda blackbird , VTX coils are hotter coils, lower cold ohm rating then the Valkyrie coils.  for under the tank a bracket needs to be made to install the two since they are larger. the side frame one fits no problem. colder temps and the ohm rating it too much for the dyna ignition and why I removed them.  for a higher output coil for the dyna theirs is the only way.

Did you install VTX coils on a Dyna3000 equipped Valk?  Looks like the 30510-MCC-003 has dual spark plug leads. What's the difference between that and the (TEC) coil # 30510-MM8-003? Where did you find comparative specs including those for the Valk coils?  Any forums that talk about this?

This forum discusses the comparison between the P/N's.  Looks like there's really no difference.  https://www.hondashadow.net/threads/coil-compatibility.570236/

I did have them installed with the dyna. but when temps get colder near 30F the ohm rating goes up which the dyna doesn't like, so just stock coils now.

from my post older thread

Almost a direct replacement. They are the OEM coils from a CBR1100XX (blackbird), ST1300, 2000 sabre and all 2001 and newer 1100 shadows. The VTX uses this coil on the forward cylinder and uses the same numbered coil (MP10) for the rear coil but carries a different part number and is green in color. All others are black. They will be identified with MP10 on the coil, the Valkyrie's are MP8.
This coil reads 2.4 ohms @ 60 degrees F whereas the stock Valkyrie coils read 2.9 ohms. This is a 0.5 ohm difference which will provide higher voltage to the plug. The stock Valkyrie coils are also used on the ST1100, CBR900RR, CB919, GW1500 and the older shadows.
Installation of the side coil is a direct replacement. The two under the tank will require longer bolts and the forward coil's bolt holes must be moved 1/2 inch forward by making an adapter bracket.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,2318.0.html

[Gryphon Rider]

Since the spark plug requires a higher Voltage because of the higher pressures, the Voltage in the coils is higher...

This part doesn't make sense.  I can understand the extra heat produced by a more powerful engine causing insulation breakdown, but just because more voltage is required in a particular situation, more voltage will not automatically be produced.  Unless there is some special circuitry going on in ignition coils that I am unaware of, like any coil transformer, voltage is purely a function of incoming voltage, the number of turns on the primary and secondary coils, and the speed of the switching.  None of these is impacted by increasing or decreasing the resistance of the load, in this case, the spark plug's spark, i.e., a spark that is weak for whatever reason isn't going to affect the coil's secondary voltage.

If you're up for it, I can explain how coils/transformers work, but I think that is more than a forum can stand.

I know how transformers work.  Please specifically explain how changing the spark strength changes the output voltage at the coil.  Don't worry about the others on this forum; they know how to skip past messages they aren't interested in.  I, for one, do it all the time! 

[MarkT]

Thx for the comments.  Got another missive into the blower / D3000 guru himself, Jeff K.  Gonna get this solved gol dang it.

[Itinifni]

It sounds like WintrSol can provide a much more detailed explanation on coil principals of operation but this video does a decent job demonstrating coil operation as applied to internal combustion engines.

Note the increase in voltage during snap throttle, when cylinder pressure increases. It's difficult to see due to the resolution he has the scope at but as the firing voltage increases, the firing time decreases.

He also demonstrates higher and lower resistance in the secondary circuit by unplugging the plug wire and varying the air gap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUShO72Grq8

Sorry to sidetrack your thread Mark, maybe there's someone near you with a scope you can borrow.

[WintrSol]

I know how transformers work.  Please specifically explain how changing the spark strength changes the output voltage at the coil.  Don't worry about the others on this forum; they know how to skip past messages they aren't interested in.  I, for one, do it all the time! 

Current flowing through a coil or transformer sets up a magnet field; when you abruptly stop that current, the field begins to collapse. The rapidly changing field attempts to recreate the current flow by increasing the Voltage; the Voltage across the primary in an ignition coil rises to more than 100V (usually much more), and the secondary coil multiplies that by, typically, 100X. In an ideal system, the Voltage at both coils will rise to infinity in the absence of induced current; in a real system, the Voltage rises until a path for the current is found. Normally, in this case, that would be the gap of the spark plug; it could just as easily be from the spark plug cap to the engine, or through the insulation inside the coil to lower Voltage portions of that coil, if the Voltage exceeds its ability to block it. So, if the spark plug requires a higher Voltage to create an arc, the Voltage at the coil has to be higher, too. Once the arc is formed, the Voltage stops increasing, and the power stored in the coil is sent through the plug (or other path), to return to the other end of the coil and is dissipated as heat.

[Gryphon Rider]

I know how transformers work.  Please specifically explain how changing the spark strength changes the output voltage at the coil.  Don't worry about the others on this forum; they know how to skip past messages they aren't interested in.  I, for one, do it all the time! 

Current flowing through a coil or transformer sets up a magnet field; when you abruptly stop that current, the field begins to collapse. The rapidly changing field attempts to recreate the current flow by increasing the Voltage; the Voltage across the primary in an ignition coil rises to more than 100V (usually much more), and the secondary coil multiplies that by, typically, 100X. In an ideal system, the Voltage at both coils will rise to infinity in the absence of induced current; in a real system, the Voltage rises until a path for the current is found. Normally, in this case, that would be the gap of the spark plug; it could just as easily be from the spark plug cap to the engine, or through the insulation inside the coil to lower Voltage portions of that coil, if the Voltage exceeds its ability to block it. So, if the spark plug requires a higher Voltage to create an arc, the Voltage at the coil has to be higher, too. Once the arc is formed, the Voltage stops increasing, and the power stored in the coil is sent through the plug (or other path), to return to the other end of the coil and is dissipated as heat.

Thanks for the explanation.

[MarkT]

Got the VTX coils in.  They appear to be identical to the OEMs.  Except the insertion hole depth for the secondary circuit spark wires is much shallower.  The coils don't appear to have a larger coil inside to provide any different spark voltage.  I suppose they might be able to just use a thinner gauge wire with more windings.  I don't have any way to measure output.  They are marked "China" of course - thinner wires should be expected, I'm thinking.  So far no difference in mounting them - the span of the 2 mount holes is the same.

Running into an issue.  The spark wires are inserted into the pockets then appear to need to be screwed onto a probe inside, and the cap screwed on.  They had to be unscrewed to remove the wires they were delivered with.  The wires are clearly lower quality than the Honda OEM ones.  Easy to screw on the first Honda wire as you can hold the wire carefully with a round curve pliar and turn the coil.  Not the second as you have to extract the wire from it's routing as installed, then put it back with the spark boot fed through it's routing path.  That means under the blower and other tight confines.  Wish there was another way.   Wish I could lube it like I do with most other insertions.  No pun intended.

[hubcapsc]

Wish there was another way.

I remember, probably from this now-dead shoptalk link, that the spark boot
comes off the OEM spark plug wire, it is on there kind of like a rubber cover.
In the write-up I'm remembering, the fellow took the OEM ones off and
reused them on his new red spark plug wires...

http://www.valkyrieriders.com/ShopTalk/plugwires.pdf

-Mike

[MarkT]

Afraid to pull them apart.  They look like they are fused together.  If they would come apart, maybe they could be reassembled w/o hurting them.  If so I would take the plug boots off to help pull the wires out, install them on the coils then re-pull the wires through and reassemble.  I can check if they come apart on "Marty".   I'm guessing if they come apart, they may be screwed together like the coil ends are.  Or even just use Marty's wires as they have half the miles of George.  But he's in unheated storage and it's cold out.  Hate mechanicing in the cold...

I just tried to twist the wire out of the spark plug boot.  It didn't budge.  Afraid if I continued I would surely break the conductor inside.  I might have anyway.  I think they are assembled at the factory and fused together.

That pdf link above is 404'd.  Curious what was there.

[hubcapsc]

I looked at the internet wayback machine and found the pdf... John
Schmidt made it. I saved a copy of it here:

https://sites.google.com/site/hubcapsite9/misc/plugwires.pdf

-Mike

[MarkT]

Thanks!

[Leathel]

What about the Accel super coils, I fitted a couple I got on special on my old VT110C with the leads supplied, seamed to start better and be more stable at very low idle (lower than should be set)

Not that I have read the rest of this post... Just curious if these work on the valk

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ACCEL-140403S-Super-Coil-Kit-Inductive-Discharge/153217662438?epid=171160597&hash=item23ac7bfde6:g:dRUAAOSwH59c13Vn

[John Schmidt]

Mark, glad you got the procedure for replacing the wires. I was going to post it for you. Just don't be in a hurry and use plenty of alcohol, those wires will slip in/out of the boot slicker than snot on a doorknob. 

[WintrSol]

Mark, glad you got the procedure for replacing the wires. I was going to post it for you. Just don't be in a hurry and use plenty of alcohol, those wires will slip in/out of the boot slicker than snot on a doorknob. 

McCallan's 12 works for me.

[MarkT]

Thanks for that tip on ther alcohol, always have that on hand - gallons of it.  I've never used it as lube but it seems to help.  And when it evaporates, no lasting problem with it.  Couldn't use my wire pulling (rubber lube) in this case it would be a problem.

[MarkT]

Got the coils replaced.  That is more effort than you'd think. I did have to make an adapter for the 2 on the right as the VTX ones are larger diameter & won't fit with the blower there - had to move them back a bit.  Checked the spark - it's considerably better.  Hope that ends the problem.  I still have to button it up - had to remove some parts to force the fit.

[turtle254]

Does that mean its a good hot spark … or is their still some problem?

[MarkT]

The spark is much more obvious.  I may have seen bigger, hotter on other vehicles.  I didn't look at it on Jade for comparison and it's in the unheated bike barn right now with snow in the way so won't look today unless it heats up considerably.  I suspect the starting problem may be fixed but I should not mention, might jinx it!  I didn't try it by plugging in the OEM ICM which is supposed to need less power to create good spark.  Comparing before, the spark was a little better with that ICM.  Measuring all the inputs, the bike has volts way above minimum spec in all those tests with a peak voltage adapter. (Tests beginning pg 17-5 of the Honda shop manual.) I don't have a scope for visual measurements and a bit more precision.  Rare for me to need one in projects I've done since leaving the computer industry.  Not deep into analog electric projects, as much as I would like.

I'm about to return to the shop and work on it - expect to fire it up later today.  Knock on wood...

[Firefight100]

Mark, get something like this   You dont need a oscope.  This will be close enough for govt. work.  And it estimates voltage so you can compare machines or coils.

https://www.amazon.com/Deal%E3%80%91OriGlam-Adjustable-Ignition-Circuit-Diagnostic/dp/B06X9RC3PF/ref=pd_sbs_86_img_2/133-0320539-7602363?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B06X9RC3PF&pd_rd_r=c61335e4-3b80-40e1-beeb-ff055dea3759&pd_rd_w=R466s&pd_rd_wg=YYXNN&pf_rd_p=5cfcfe89-300f-47d2-b1ad-a4e27203a02a&pf_rd_r=E6VG83CQW0QWZHK0G7AZ&psc=1&refRID=E6VG83CQW0QWZHK0G7AZ